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Subject: God made her beat the childred From: GUEST,The Oracle of Orillia Date: 01 Oct 02 - 09:30 AM From the Globe & Mail - October 1, 2002 CHARLOTTETOWN -- Lucille Poulin says she prayed to God before hitting small children with a thick wooden rod -- and the Almighty would tell her how many strokes to administer. The 78-year-old former Roman Catholic nun alternated between evangelical zeal and stern lectures on disciplining children yesterday as she testified in her own defence at the Supreme Court of Prince Edward Island trial where she faces five charges of assaulting children at a rural PEI commune. Ms. Poulin said she did not want to use the rod to discipline the nine children she cared for and taught on the PEI commune. But she said she is a prophet and talks to God and receives messages from the Almighty regularly. And she said God told her she had to obey the words of the Scriptures about using a rod to correct the behaviour of children to save their souls from hell. "It isn't easy, but God said to do it," Ms. Poulin said, noting that she administered the rod to the five children named in the charges on more than two dozen occasions from October, 1999, to July, 2001. The former nun said she would hit a child up to 14 times, and that other adults carried out more severe beatings, in which children were hit as many as 39 times. When asked by her lawyer how she knew how many times to hit a child, Ms. Poulin replied that she would pray about it and God would send her a message. Ms. Poulin, who spent 31 years as a nun and then became a founding member of a religious commune that began on an Alberta dairy farm in the 1980s and moved to PEI in 1995, said she always admonished the children and warned them that if they didn't change their behaviour they would receive the rod on their buttocks. "They had to be warned and admonished, sometimes as many as three times, and when they wouldn't listen the rod would come," said Ms. Poulin, wearing an old-fashioned dress, shawl and bonnet. She quoted extensively from the Bible to back up her stance that children should be punished with the rod if they stray into evil ways. The five children testified that they were afraid of Ms. Poulin, who they accused of whacking children with the rod almost daily for offences such as drawing comical pictures or taking a cookie without permission. She quoted from the Book of Proverbs that exhorts parents to "chasten the child while there is hope" and that "foolishness is bound in the heart of the child but the rod of correction will drive it far from him." The case is considered a test of Section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada that allows a parent or someone in the role of a parent to use reasonable force in disciplining a child. Ms. Poulin acknowledges that she hit the children with the rod, but said she did not use unreasonable force and was acting on her religious beliefs. Ms. Poulin said she used the rod on children between the ages of 8 and 14 for offences such as lying about a bed-wetting problem, blaming other children for a messy mud-pie incident, and mocking the former nun when she was reading the Scriptures. For those offences children had to bend over a chair to be struck as many as 14 times. More severe punishments were meted out by three men in the commune. The children talked of the pain and weeping that went along with the beatings, but Ms. Poulin said she was never vindictive or angry when she disciplined a child. She said she would talk to the parents about the problems with the child and then pray to God for guidance before administering the rod. After the disciplinary session, she said the offending child would often embrace her and she would pray. "I would have the child lie down and think over what had been done and call on the Lord Jesus for help," she said. "They would get up, and they were as happy as could be." She said the children had to learn to obey their parents and the rules of the commune so they could grow up to be good citizens and learn to obey God and eventually get into heaven. "The wrath of God falls on every child of disobedience -- it's hell -- and if we're obedient it's Heaven," she said. "The child has to wake up and find out what is obedience." While the children who testified complained of working long hours at the farm and restaurant that was purchased by the commune of nine adults and nine children in 1995, Ms. Poulin said their duties were not onerous and they had lots of time to play. She acknowledged that if the children were slothful they were forced to miss a meal because the Bible said that anyone who doesn't work would not eat. Ms. Poulin also said that she had a close, loving relationship with the children and took them on shopping trips and to local parks. "It was a beautiful relationship of genuine love -- no mushy stuff," Ms. Poulin testified. "Because what was flowing through my heart was the love of God." But what she considered to be a peaceful, simple life filled with work and Bible study at the rural commune was disrupted in 1998 when an older sibling of some of the children came to visit and began talking to them about life outside their tiny community. Ms. Poulin, who says that she is a born-again Christian and is filled with the spirit of God, said that the devil inspired the older siblings of some of the children to continue to lure them away from the commune. One child died in December, 1999, and in July, 2001, three children fled from the commune. On July 25 police and PEI social-services officials came to the commune and took the remaining five children. Now only five adults live there. The trial, entering its third week, continues today. |
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Subject: RE: God made her beat the childred From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM So... are we gonna start another run of meanness at each other based on religion? Or have we gotten smart enough to recognize this as simply another whackjob at work in our world who has a neat way of justifying what's unsupportable? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: mack/misophist Date: 01 Oct 02 - 10:16 AM I suspect the real answer here is schizophrenia. Or somesuch. Any time god tells you something personally, get a second opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 01 Oct 02 - 10:44 AM Well ,there Oracle of Orillia, your story still don't top that wild little incident with then there Branch Davidians at Waco under David Koresh or that group wanting to hitch a ride on the Hale-bop Comet leaving behind the literal last word in Nike commercials and lest we forget Jim Jones. Bottomline: Spare us the Connie Chung tabloid-fodder. she needs this job. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: mg Date: 01 Oct 02 - 11:50 AM I think we must look at the influence of religion in cases like this, and the interaction of religion with mental illness..in helping to produce it, maintain it, justify cruelty etc. And in attracting those with mental problems who then impose their beliefs on others. It is not a totally benign situation. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Bagpuss Date: 01 Oct 02 - 11:56 AM I don't think that there is any evidence that the mentally ill population is more violent than other people. Also, people with religious beliefs generally have better mental health than those without beliefs. I'm not saying that there isn't any interaction of the type you describe, but I would expect it to be quite rare. Most violence in the world is inflicted by those who would be medically considered completely sane. That's the scary thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Clinton Hammond Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:02 PM "people with religious beliefs generally have better mental health than those without beliefs" What's your source for that?!?!?! Sounds spurious at best to me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:22 PM There are many stidies showing that a strong spiritual foundation is linked to mental health. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: EBarnacle1 Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:29 PM Is it any more or less reprehensible to beat a kid because "God told me to do it" than because you lost it? I notice that no one seems to be "correcting" adults this way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:35 PM "They" do, but in cults, of all stripes. Any then you can, if you wish to stretch the point just a tad, count the "therapeutic hold" used in mental health facilities. Or you can count men correcting women this way. ANd vice versa, in smaller numbers. All these are divisive ways of trying to talk sensibly about awful things-- sometimes, the best we can come up with in an effort to get some sense out of them. All these tings do happen, and we need ways to talk about them, but simplistic labels we turn to, in a moment of uspet, don't do much to change things. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:44 PM (quote) "Is it any more or less reprehensible to beat a kid because "God told me to do it" than because you lost it? I dunno . Ask any Islamist suicide bomber..... ......Oops, guess ya can't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:46 PM "Strong spiritual foundation." I'll drink to that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:47 PM I should have said spiritous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Wolfgang Date: 01 Oct 02 - 12:59 PM Wysiwyg, I have problems to understand the logic of your argumentation. Bagpuss posts that people with religious belief have better mental health than those without, Clinton asks for a source and you respond that there are studies showing that. That adds nothing at all to what Bagpuss has posted. The actual picture is far from conclusive, unless you digest studies selectively. You can't change religious beliefs experimentally, so whatever you find are correlations with all their problems. In addition to that, the picture depends upon which mental health problem you look at. Among schizophrenics, there are more religious people than can be expected on a random base. Now what does that tell us? Do religious people get schizophrenic or are schizophrenic people drawn towards religion? There are indications that the incidence of depression is lower among religious people. Now what does that tell us? Does being religious prevent onset of depression or do religious people show only less symptoms due to being in a strong support group? There is nothing in the data yet to milk them for a one-sided agenda. Forget this line of discussion. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 02 - 02:07 PM A. The parents did not administer the punishment B. The Nun obviously has delusions of divine power C. The instrument used is a solid piece of wood more akin to a club or cricket bat than a rod (as in Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child) D. I heard that is was common to administer as many as 39 strokes Non of the above can be remotely interpreted as suitable Corporal Punishment; even by former Military standards of justice circa 1800's, on a child under teenage years. Therefore she will be found guilty, but spared by her obvious delusional mental state, and advanced years. If she (or anyone) touched any kid of mine like that, I would break the fucking bat on her head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 02 - 02:33 PM Wolfgang, I am not arguing for it one way or another, I was just mentioning that there ARE studies, and if people want to look for them they can do so, more productively probably than to ask for them or to summarize them here. Except for music, people seem to me not to come here to learn about a thing, just to argue from the positions they already hold. If people wish to learn they can search and find a variety of views, studies, and discussions among people of (possibly) calmer minds. My main point was that this approach (getting people into arguments here at Mudcat) is not a good basis on which to discuss (or change) what needs to change in our world. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: EBarnacle1 Date: 01 Oct 02 - 02:40 PM Wolfgang, Part of the reason may be that religious groups target these very vulnerable people. When people are at their most insecure and vulnerable, they tend to affiliate more easily--especially if the group appears to be accepting of their problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,Jeep Man Date: 01 Oct 02 - 03:09 PM Cheers, Susan!!! Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 02 - 04:07 PM Wolfgang, argumentiere ich nicht für es One-way oder andere, war ich gerade, erwähnend, daß es Studien GIBT, und wenn Leute nach ihnen suchen möchten, können sie so, produktiver tun vermutlich als, um sie zu bitten oder sie hier zusammenzufassen. Außer Musik scheinen Leute mir, nicht herzukommen, über eine Sache zu erlernen, von den Positionen gerade zu argumentieren, die sie bereits halten. Wenn der Leutewunsch, zum sie zu erlernen eine Vielzahl von Ansichten, von Studien und von Diskussionen unter Leuten (vielleicht) des ruhigeren Verstandes suchen und finden kann. Meine Hauptsache war, daß diese Annäherung (Leute in Argumente bei Mudcat hier erhalten) nicht auf die eine ist gute Grundlage, zum (oder Änderung) von von was Notwendigkeiten zu besprechen, in unserer Welt zu ändern. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 02 - 04:09 PM Where my cookie go? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Burke Date: 01 Oct 02 - 04:42 PM Pubmed is freely available on the Internet. It gives citations and abstracts of medical literature. Here's a link searching on Religion AND Mental Health. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,Melani Date: 01 Oct 02 - 05:15 PM Okay, here's either a technical glitch or my stupidity: I tried the translation thing at the bottom of the page to translate Susan's post from German to English, and when I hit "translate" I got an order form for an Archie Fisher recording. ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wilco Date: 01 Oct 02 - 05:53 PM The correlation between delusional mental illness and religion has intrigued me for forty years. I've worked with the mentally ill since 1968. I played music in a Clubhouse for the mentally ill yesterday. One of the regulars there is a man in his thirties who is actively delusional, with ongoing visual and auditory delusions. He walks around all day with an open bible, flipping through the pages. He won't read, but just flips the entire book, usually in about five seconds. He is looking for answers in sacred writings. he's been doing this for years. One of the behaviors that indicates he is de-compensationg and needs a meds adjustment is when he starts the bible scan again. When his meds are right, he doesn't do it. I am very suspect of anyone who believes that God has spoken to them. They are usually delusional or trying to con someone out of something (usually money). The mentally ill are no more violent than the rest of the population. The bigger issue in mental illness and violence is the problem of street drugs and alcohol abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 02 - 06:46 PM Melani, it's just a translation of my last post (in English) speaking to Wolfgang. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Bagpuss Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:38 AM Apologies for my brief post which probably didn't really say what I wanted to say. My point was that marygarvey was focussing on the negative associations between mental health and religion, but that I believe the picture is much more complex. I don't have time to pull out all the references, but from what I have read, yes it is true that religious people who suffer from psychosis tend to have stronger religious delusions than non religious people. However that may just be a change in content due to the focus of the person's life. I don't know of any evidence that religious content delusions lead to more serious consequences (eg more violent behaviour) than delusions with other content. Other studies show that many people suffering psychosis use their religion as a coping mechanism, and become more religious after their psychosis appears. These people were more likely to be compliant with anti-psychotic medication. In the non-psychotic arena, the evidence seems to be that those with religious beliefs have lower levels of depression and suicide. Though of course the direction of this correlation isn't fully understood. Maybe religious beliefs have a positive impact on mental health, maybe people with better mental health are drawn to religion, maybe both religious belief and good mental health are influenced by a third unknown factor. Maybe the relationship is mediated by another factor - eg people with religious beliefs have a larger social network which is the real protective factor. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: smallpiper Date: 02 Oct 02 - 07:02 AM The nun in question claims to be a born again christian yet she quotes from the Jewish bible! (ie the old testament) not the christian bible (ie the new testament). This has always struck me as odd, and often an excuse for nasty behavious. I am not being anti semetic in any way I just think its a bit like a buddist quoting from the Koran to justify any deeds he or she might do. And I cannot think of a single instant when this kind of punishment would be supported by the new testament writings. She's just another Nazi bitch end of story. As for the other stuff linking mental health to violence there is no evidence to support the claim that people with mental health problems(one in four of the UK population) are violent, or use more alcohol or drugs than those without. I wonder how many strokes of the rod God will dish out to this violent woman? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,Den Date: 02 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM What has Archie Fisher got to do with religion translated into German? Another conspiracy no doubt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: M.Ted Date: 02 Oct 02 - 02:39 PM Why do you assume that someone is mentally ill when they say that God speaks to them? Are Quakers mentally ill? They just sit in the meeting waiting for God to speak to them and through them? And why assume that this systematic brutality is the product of mental illness? Shizophrenics, as well as people suffering from many other sorts or mental illness, are capable of making good moral choices, and many, if not most of them do-- The problem here is neither religious nor psychiatric--the woman, and her community, have made bad moral choices, and, unlike many of us, including the mentally ill and the religiously inclined, rather than learning from their mistakes and moving on, they have simply sought ways to justify them. In the end, saying that "God told me to do it" is just like saying "The Devil made me do it", it is an effort to avoid accepting responsibility for the choices that we make, of our own free will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wilco Date: 02 Oct 02 - 04:33 PM M Ted: Good point. Unfortunately, we have legal issues determining the valididty of God's communication with people. Mental illness, as is criminal behavior, is very real. People like the ex-nun, who drift from one cult to another, are great examples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: M.Ted Date: 02 Oct 02 - 05:06 PM Wilco48, Re-reading the article, it does not seem that mental illness has been claimed in this case--of course, this article is the only info I have, so there may be more to it--also, at least according to the article, she did not drift from one group to another--31 years a nun, and then the last 20 odd years in this group, which she founded--maybe she should have gotten out more;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Amos Date: 02 Oct 02 - 07:05 PM Translated into English, Susan's cogent post, with thread topic header included, reads as follows: User name Thread name Subject Posted GUEST BS: God larva beat ago the children 01 Oct 02 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wolfgang, I argue for it One way or others, was not I straight, mentioning the fact that there ARE studies and if people liked to look for them, can do her in such a way, more productively does probably than, in order to ask her or summarize them here. Except music people me seem to come not to learn over a thing straight of the positions to argue, which already hold them. If the people desire, to it can learn a multiplicity of opinions, search and find of studies and from discussions among people (perhaps) of the calmer understanding. My main thing was that this approximation (people received into arguments with Mudcat here) is not on the one good basis to discuss to (or change) from of which necessities in our world to change. ~Susan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST Date: 02 Oct 02 - 08:48 PM Amos, "the devil made you do it." The old witch took the stand yesterday. "It isn't easy (she) told the court. "But God said to do it." She frequently quoted Bible passages to support her belief that adults should not spare the rod when raising children. "The wrath of God falls on the children of disobedience and it's Hell," she said. "For obedience, it's Heaven. We use the rod to bring the child to obedience." (It should be made clear that she is a born-again christian, a fundamentalist- not a member of an order with nuns in the normal sense). Most Canadians are relieved that this isn't another case of abuse in institutional systems. Abuse and inadequate instruction in church-sponsored schools here has left a legacy of mentally twisted native children unable to cope and costing millions in welfare and penal institutions. The effects will persist for decades. Court settlements so far granted, if upheld, will bankrupt the sponsoring institutions. Ultimately, of course, it will be the average citizen who will pay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: toadfrog Date: 02 Oct 02 - 11:36 PM It is my understanding that some fundamentalist Protestant groups do advocate beating children. Looking on the web, there are numerous sites on the subject, like THIS ONE,and THIS ONE; THIS ONE; Another work in the same vein would be Larry Tomczak, God, the Rod, and Your Child's Bod. The idea seems to be to break the child's will. As for studies which show that religious persons enjoy better mental health, I would point out there are also studies showing that gun-owners prevent 1 million crimes each year, and a very famous study proving that 10% of all people are really Gay. But my very favorite study is the one that proves that 85 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot! There are studies which prove just everything! MSG |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: toadfrog Date: 02 Oct 02 - 11:43 PM Sorry. That third clickie was a hum dinger, and I messed it up. It goes HERE See also Richard Rhodes, Why they Kill (Knopf, 1999), pp. pp. 314-315. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST Date: 03 Oct 02 - 01:18 AM What good are statistics if they don't support your views? I forget who said that, but putting a musical twist on it, have you tried to interpret the % likelihood of the Cowpie matches? "Loving corporal discipline." The man is insane! |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Oct 02 - 01:33 AM I've worked and taught in Catholic activities all my life. It seems to me, we get more than our share of crazy people. I think there's something about religion that's attractive to people with mental problems. Maybe it's that religious people are expected to be open and welcoming to all. Maybe there's something about the spiritual side of things that makes sense to insane people. Maybe they just feel safe among nice people, just as they would in any community of loving people. I wouldn't say that religion causes insanity, but I would say that interesting things (and sometimes dangerous things) happen when people with mental problems are involved in religious activities. I've found I have to be very careful when I'm picking people to do various jobs in the church. The crazies can do a lot of damage. Of course, I found the same thing was true when I selected volunteers to work with Boy Scouts. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Mr Happy Date: 03 Oct 02 - 03:55 AM guest oracle, i'm concerned about the origin of this monologue. can you point us to a contact address for the 'globe & mail'please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,...who's hidden his cookie in the sacristry Date: 03 Oct 02 - 04:01 AM Sadly the current case in Canada is just an egregious example of something many of us have experienced. I went to a Roman Catholic school in north London in the 60s where extreme physical brutality and sexual abuse were prevalent. It was not unusual for the brothers to pulls tufts of hair from boys as young as seven, while the cane was administered with muscular enthusiasm for the slightest perceived transgression, with particular zeal being reserved for those sins which were perceived as bucking the spiritual system - five or six strokes for talking during Mass but just one for kicking the shit out of a fellow pupil springs to mind. Often an entire class would be beaten for the transgression of one boy, and when there was no cane to hand masters would improvise, using heavy wooden blackboard erasers around the head, boots, shoes and cricket bats. It wasn't unusual to see blood drawn. As I write this I'm aware that it seems shocking. And yet..and yett.. To us at the time, so young and so trusting of those who, we were told, were special in the eyes of God, this was the only normality we knew. I distinctly remember being jealous of the boys who got the chocolates abnd thinking it unfair that Father I***** would only fondle the plumper boys and single them out for special favours. As a skinny whippet myself, I felt excluded. The beatings were seen as a natural annoyance, and universal and as inevitable as ants on a picnic. We all became hardened to the pain and would sometimes deliberately goad masters in some absurd sense of bravado and pre-pubescent machismo, just so we could get the highest number of strokes that week. And today, when I look back, it's with mixed feelings. Hindsight tells me that what those bastards did was evil, but I also remember of couple of teachers for their genuine kindness and passion for education in its best sense (much as I imagine Joe to be). How they ever managed to coexist with the bastards I'll never know, but they did and I have them to thank for a love of learning. How much I owe to the bastards is not for me to say. All I can say is that I wish religious institutions had more people like Joe in them and fewer like Lucille Poulin. Sadly they don't, and the barking nun is not such an unusual creature for those of us brought up in the Holy Mother Church. As Joe says, it's not religion that's to blame per se; it's the fact that deranged and deluded people use it as a shield and crutch to mask and justify their appalling behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Bagpuss Date: 03 Oct 02 - 05:00 AM "The crazies can do a lot of damage." As can perfectly sane people. Prejudice against people with mental health problems is extremely common and seems to be more acceptable an attitude to display than prejudice against other groups of people. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,The Oracle of Orillia Date: 03 Oct 02 - 07:21 AM For the disbelieving Mr. Happy, here is a link to the Globe & Mail story The story has been all over every newspaper radio and television newscast and in Canada. Why do you have trouble believing it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,JTT Date: 03 Oct 02 - 07:39 AM The translators and interpreters of the Bible have a lot to answer for. I've been told, by people who can speak Hebrew, Aramaic, etc, that the "rod" referred to in the Bible is the shepherd's crook, used for gently guiding the sheep out of danger and on to the correct path, *not* a rod used for striking. By the way, Catholics regard both the Old Testament and the New Testament as the Bible. It's true that religious people are more likely to be stable - and it's also true that people who go off the deep end cling desperately to religion to give themselves some balance, often coming up with odd interpretations through their distress and unreality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: GUEST,Rick, sans kookie Date: 03 Oct 02 - 09:50 AM Yes, I'm afraid we've been inundated with these and similar jolly revelations for several years now here in Canada. At first many of us (I would imagine) simply figured that the child abuse headlines were an unpleasant abberation, but when it became one incident after another, and touched on not only the (various) churches, but other seemingly respectable organisations (Children's Aid, Boy Scouts, Foster Homes, prominent politicians, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, etc.) quite a few of us became verrrry cynical. The Bible's mention of "The rod", and "not sparing it" takes on a much darker meaning for some of us. This frightening woman (insane or just following orders) is simply the latest. There will be more. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: wilco Date: 03 Oct 02 - 09:53 AM Joe Offer has nailed a problem that exists in churches, in that the welcoming, supportive atmosphere of many churches is not threatening to many troubled people. They are very comfortable there, in an setting where good works and good behavior are the primary focus. In positions of church leadership, you have to be very careful where you put these people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: M.Ted Date: 03 Oct 02 - 03:07 PM As per Joe's comments, when I worked on the railroad, it was generally believed that we got more than our fair share of mentally imbalanced, ditto for my work as a civil servant, where it was generally believed that civil service employed more than its fair share of abberant types-- Just so you don't think it's just me, teacher friends (admittedly mostly from Phila and NJ), feel that the teaching profession gets more than its fair share--I think we have to re-think what the fair share really is-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Oct 02 - 03:31 PM God doesn't make anyone do anything. We've got free will, folks, and we decide exactly how to use it. As to whether God spoke to the lady in question, well, there's no way of determining that, is there? But I suspect that in her case there was some degree of self-created delusion at work...though I cannot say for sure. I'll say this. I despise the practice of beating children, having suffered it some myself as a youngster. It is a contemptible act, and it does not teach the child anything useful, but may do lifelong psychological damage...and may lead to the child becoming violent toward others, and using violence to settle issues. I find it sad that archaic holy books from a primitive tribal people whose customs were often brutal in the extreme should still be directing people's behaviour in this world. It's also ironical that various practitioners of brutal treatment call themselves "Christians", because Jesus never counseled anyone toward violent behaviour, as far as I know. Quite the contrary. Violence is a demonstration of failure to communicate and failure to cope on a sensible human level with a situation. It's also a demonstration of weakness...and fear. If you cannot win children's respect by a positive example and by your own strength of character, you've got no business messing with their minds and trying to control them through fear. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Bagpuss Date: 04 Oct 02 - 07:58 AM Mind out for mental health campaign uses the slogan "one in four" for the prevalence of mental health problems. One of those "aberrent types" might be just about anyone you know because of the stigma involved in disclosing mental health problems. Explore your own prejudices and find out more about the subject at this link to the mind out site . |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Mudlark Date: 05 Oct 02 - 04:29 AM After spending some years volunteering in Women's Shelters and Rape Crisis Centers, I know it isn't just the religious fanatics, crazies, and bums and malcontents that mistreat, abuse and sexually abuse children. It is also such pillars of the community as lawyers, doctors, shoe clerks, park attendants, CEOs...so far, I think it would be statistically difficult to find a group/profession/class that is free from this behavior. The general public still likes to think that child abusers are easily recognizable--that makes everybody comfortable. You don't have to worry about the neighbor's kid's bruises that way. As long as we shy away from the brutal truth, that kids are powerless for years and years in abusive situations from which they cannot escape, and cannot even talk about for fear of retribution and disbelief, abusers will continue to get away with it. For every crazy barking nun there are a lot of perfectly normal seeming people out there making their children's lives a living hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God made her beat the children From: Terry K Date: 05 Oct 02 - 12:33 PM Well said LH - couldn't agree more. cheers, Terry |