Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son

Subject: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,Raleighs ghost
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 01:52 PM

I've been a busy Bee recording sound versions of some classic poems this weekend Heres one of them,but there are several more over at my sound archive website...So I hope some of you may find time to pay us a visit...Heres a poem I realy love that Raleigh supposedly wrote to his only surviving son during his many years of incarceration in the Tower of London...Heres the link to the page with the soundfile just and paste it into your browser and you'll be there in a trice..

http://groups.msn.com/acousticmusiciansandpoetssoundarchive/poetrysounds.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=130

Regards..

Jim Clark

All rights are reserved on this sound recording/copyright/patent Jim Clark 2002

To His Son
by Sir Walter Raleigh

Three things there be that prosper up apace
And flourish whilst they grow asunder far;
But on a day, they meet all in one place,
And when they meet they one another mar:
And they be these -the wood, the weed, the wag.
The wood is that which makes the gallows tree;
The weed is that which strings the hangman's bag;
The wag, my pretty knave, betokeneth thee.
Mark well, dear boy, whilst these assemble not,
Green springs the tree, hemp grows, the wag is wild;
But when they meet, it makes the timber rot,
It frets the halter, and it chokes the child.
Then bless thee, and beware, and let us pray
We part not with thee at this meeting day.

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 02:39 PM

Sir Walter provides the best example of sang froid I know. In the final hour before his execution, he is said to have stood on the balcony above, talking to a friend. When the hour came, the friend want to be near the site to provide support yet didn't want to leave him alone on the balcony. 'Go betimes' said Sir Walter 'a place will be provided me'.

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 09:04 PM

"Sir Walter Ralegh to His Son": Introduction by Linda Gregerson (Atlantic Unbound | January 30, 2002) is an interesting article.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 07:55 PM

Thanx Guys for the discussion of this fascinating character from history....I think the Atlantic unbound Intro's are excellent,but the readings are hopeless....these academics have virtualy no discernable ability at reading poetry aloud,and on this occasion seem to lack all conception of how Sir Walter Raleigh might have read his poetry aloud in his broad West of England Devon accent (full of rrrr's ha ha)...Anyway if you'd like to hear what he realy might have sounded like try my reading...i'm not from the west of England,but i'm cetain i'm better job of readings Raleighs poem to his only surviving young son warning of the possible results of misfortune "Meeting all in one place" and how it might lead to the hangmans noose,and the gallows tree...he himself was executed on October the 28th 1618 ....Heres the link to the page with my sound file on again..
http://groups.msn.com/acousticmusiciansandpoetssoundarchive/poetrysounds.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=130

Regards..

Jim Clark....

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From:
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 05:37 AM

Walter Ralegh's sonnet beginning, "Three things there be that prosper up apace" was probably addressed to his elder son, also called Walter, rather than his younger boy. Walt junior was a bit of a rakehelly tearaway, while the younger son took after his mother. The poem suits the older rather than the younger.

As it turned out, Walter junior didn't, as the poem warns might happen, die on the gallows, but was killed on his father's catastrophic raiding expedition to the Spanish West Indies. James had let Ralegh out of the Tower to conduct the raid, but in fact set Ralegh up and tipped off the Spaniards. This gave James an excuse, when Ralegh returned, to top him.

In a letter to his wife informing her of the death of their son, he concludes with the words:

"I can write no more. My brains are broken."

Robin Hamilton

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: belfast
Date: 10 Oct 02 - 07:07 AM

As regards acoustic versions of the poem. I have an anthology entitled "Sounds Good" which includes the cator Timothy West reading this poem. For me it's as good as it gets.

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 06:44 AM

Thanx Robin and Belfast,

Robin you may be right,but an awful lot of these things are supposition..By the way where did you read that King James had set Sir Walter up on releasing him to go and find gold in Guiana (Venezuala if I've spelt that righ ha ha,as its called today)I've never read of that conspiracy theory before...I think you will find it was to his younger and not older son.....though your theory is interesting..

Timothy West Smimothy shwest ha ha..of courdse he's a fine actor...but you realy ought to try my version...Raleigh didnt speak with an upper class accent like West...he spoke in broad west country dialecr "aaaaaarghhh shiver me timbers" ha ha..
acoustic musicians and poets sound archive

Regards..

Jim Clark..

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: Robin
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 02:18 AM

"
Robin you may be right,but an awful lot of these things are supposition..
"

Sure -- there's no hard dating on Ralegh's poems.

"
By the way where did you read that King James had set Sir Walter up on releasing him to go and find gold in Guiana (Venezuala if I've spelt that righ ha ha,as its called today)I've never read of that conspiracy theory before...
"

Wash yo' mouf' out with carbolic. This ain't no conspiracy theory.

In the last years of Bess, Ralegh was pushing for a republic rather than for Jimmie the six and one to inherit.

James the Sixth of Scotland already had the black spot on Ralegh even before he crossed the border -- he'd been being fed black propoganda CIA reports by Burleigh.

(Look, remember, Ralegh was VERY much Good Queen Bess's creature. It was both personal and political. EI gave Ralegh taxes on salt, and when she died, Ralegh came out with one of those unforgetable throw-a-ways: "She was a lady whom time hath surprised."

Ralegh (much as I admire him) was self-destruct.

The first personal meeting between Jimmie 6 and Ralegh, James said, "I hae herd rawley about you" (pun on Ralegh's name).

Ralegh replied nothing [but prolly thought, "Sod you, you nasty Scottish poofter.]

The minute James (6&1) was on the English throne, he slapped a trial for treason on Ralegh. (And the ghost of Essex was prolly laughing in the background).

Trial ended with a suspended (death) sentence, and Ralegh was slammed into the Tower.

Then things hung fire for a bit, partly because James' elder son Henry was deeply pro-Ralegh ("Only my father would keep such a bird in a cage.")

Then young Henry died of smallpox, so ...

Out of the Tower, into a Spanish set-up, back to the block.

"
I think you will find it was to his younger and not older son.....though your theory is interesting..
"

Bullshit. The "Three things there be ..." was directed at young Wat, not the milksop (which is unfair -- Walter's younger son was sensible and nice and BLOODY SURVIVED).

(Have a look at what Aubrey says about Ralegh in the _Brief Lives_. I particulary like the annecdote about younger and older Walter and the prostitute -- "Turn and turn about, it'll reach the old man at last."

Ah, mooch, been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

Mostly my street-cred here runs I wrote a pome about this called "The Lady, the Rude Boy, and the Toy Boy".

If you really want, I could give you chapter-and-(scholarly)-verse for the above.

But honest, it's pretty much generally accepted knowledge.

Robin

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: Robin
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 03:16 AM

Jim:

think you will find it was to his younger and not older son....

Where did you get this particularly piece of egregious nonsense from?

Can we switch this backchannel?

Lots more I could say.

But I can't seem to work out how to mail you personally.

If it works both ways, mail me at:

[e-mail]

Cheers,

Robin

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:29 AM

Dear Robin,

I am prapared to admit when i'm wrong ha ha..I dont have any great knowledge of Raleigh or history for that matter you've obviously (to me)have a much more detailed knowledge than I do....Gosh it was worth playing the devils advocate just to read your fantastic and witty notes on this subject...I suppose the best place to contact me would be via my website (which is why if the truth be told the reason I posted this here in the first place to give a bit of publicity to my sound website

acoustic musicians and poets sound archive

Regards..

Jim Clark....

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: Robin
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 03:52 PM

Jim,

Thanks for those kind words. I'm not an expert in Ralegh but I am fascinated by him. Years ago I constructed a dramatic collage, "The Ralegh Miscellany" that unsuccessfully bounced around tbe Beeb. It was turned down by the Radio 3 editor because, he said, "While it's dramaticallly excellent, I'm no historian so I'm worried about that side." Then it was turned down by the World Service: "While it's historically immaculate, I'm not sure if it's sufficiently dramatic." .

Oh, and I compliled what I hope is a pretty nearly complete collection of poems written about or mentioning Ralegh while he was alive and not long after his death -- everything up to about 1640.

          Rawleigh doth time bestride
                  he sits twixt winde and tide
                  yet uppe hill hee cannot ride,
                  for all his bloodie pride.
                  hee seeks taxes in the tinne
                  hee powles the poor to the skinne
                  yet hee sweares tis no sinne
                     Lord for thy pittie.


I did try your Web site, Jim, but couldn't seem to find a hotlink to email you. Prolly me being dumb -- I'll try again.

Dunno whether anyone would like to read "The Lady, the Rude Boy, and the Toy Boy" (respectively Elizabeth, Ralegh, and Essex) -- I'm new to posting on Mudcat, so I'm not sure of the decorum of including it in this thread. Assuming anyone would be interested.

Robin

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: Robin
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 05:24 PM

Jim:

(Sorry for these private messages on a public forum, folks)

I +still+ can't seem to get to you backchannel.

Without signing-on to MSN, and I have an inveterate loathing of GatesWorld.

Got some stuff on Ralegh for you, if you can get in touch.

Cheers,

Robin

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 05:31 PM

I tried the site, had to register, and was rewarded with an "invalid file" window--are you sure the file is a good one?

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 12 Oct 02 - 07:51 PM

Dear Robin,

Its entirely your choice whether you visit my site and leave a message i do all my poetry and music correspondence through this medium unless you want to send me vast quantities of money ha ha...Its not gates world its Jimbo's world....but if your using the net his influence is there somewhere...its a fact of life....but i'm not begging anybody to visit the site...but if you want to hear some realy unique sound recordings instead of regurgitations by some boring old money grabbing record company of old recordings it is one suggested route..and the only one in the case of my recordings ...I would however love to read your poems and can see no reason why posting them on this superb message forum should be a problem at least its not yet another discussion of some old tired diddly dee number or the boring Mr WWW Bush and his entourage ha ha..

Ted...the file is definitely..definitely a good one..it is for your information a wav file in the gsm 6.10 format...if it doesnt play on a straightforward click..Then it may be that your computer isnt set up with the correct type of default sound player to play the most basic of sound files on the net...You can if you wish click right on your mouse having moved the cursor over the greyed out wav file area of the page and save the file in a folder so you can find it on your computer..then you go to start,programmes,entertainment and having located the sound recorder bring it up and open the wav file you've saved...Theses files do all play..I regularly recieve feedback on them from other websites..believe me its worth the effort to hear all sorts of incredible musicians and sound poems you wont hear anywhere else in the world as they come from my video and sound recordings archive..

acoustic musicians and poets sound archive


Regards..

Jim..

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: Robin
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 01:05 AM

Jim:

"
Its entirely your choice whether you visit my site and leave a message
"

I've tried, dear god how I've tried. I can access your site but can I leave a message? Nada.

"
I would however love to read your poems and can see no reason why posting them on this superb message forum should be a problem at least its not yet another discussion of some old tired diddly dee number or the boring Mr WWW Bush and his entourage ha ha..
"

On your head be it ...

      The Lady, the Rude Boy, and the Toy Boy:
                A Triple Epitaph

                   for Marion

What boots it swear the Fox? -- the only phrase of wit
In his thirty-odd years Elizabeth's crazy toy-boy
Ever managed. Devious, sincere, and finally in-
competent, for once Ralegh was on the sharp edge
Of things -- Francis beside him to quote the laws, and that
Devonshire rhetoric washing Essex quite away, who unbe-
lieving watched his cold lady steer him to the block.

She'd played many on her high line of art, that
Virgin queen, would play the last and cast him aside
At last, time called on her final favourite, slob-
bering James waiting in the wings -- Who but my cousin
Of Scotland? Who indeed, as Ralegh canvassed a republic,
Unable to conceive reality without her, while Bacon
And Walsingham sent letters over the Border, post-haste
And through the disputed lands, straight into James's lap.

The Fox was out-of-date, always had been, either too
Early or too late -- the Virginia colony faltering, that repub-
lic forty years in the future. And the spread cloak
A gesture out of some former, heraldic time. Neverthe-
less, it won him monopolies in salt and forgive-
ness for that other Elizabeth's sudden seduction.

Out of court for a time, but wit's indispensable,
The flash boys are mostly interchangeable, there's
Only one Walter -- so back he came, while his wife
Stayed rusticated bringing up the boys as well as she
Could, watching one grow up so unlike his father,
The other a mirror of what twenty years had been.

He had a line in casual epitaphs, for all the
Good it did him -- She was a lady whom time
Hath surprised -- as time surprised him when she
Died, incredulous that a Scots oaf should sit where
She once ruled. He was so Elizabeth's creature, he could not
Live beyond her. James's rigged treason trial, while
Essex' ghost laughed and pointed the finger, gave him
Maybe the best gift he could have had, those six-
teen years in the Tower to write his history.

Then out and away on the Main, no free bird, but
Marked for demolition, the Spanish fed his route,
The forts prepared, and all the prize another epitaph,
Walt dead beneath some foreign muskets, to Elizabeth:
I can write no more: my brains are broken.

When he came to the block himself, all he could
Summon up was a tagged scrap of an old poem, time
Reworked -- What is our life? What indeed? Better
Poor dead Henry's fitting benediction -- Only my father
Would keep such a bird in a cage. That's no jest.

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:23 AM

Thanx Robin,

The messageboard is working at the website..I actualy had to delete no less than 2 get rich quick type postings placed there yesterday afternoon..Anyway i'm rather busy at this moment,but I'll be back later to have a good old read of your posting....Its realy great hearing from somebody like yourself who has so much knowledge and an obvious fascination in the amazing Mr Raleigh....

Regards..

Jim...

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 13 Oct 02 - 07:03 PM

Thanx For your emails Robin..your brilliant..i've written back..

Regards.

Jim Clark....

acoustic musicians and poets sound archive

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: GUEST,jeanclarktownsend
Date: 23 Nov 23 - 02:01 PM

My college professor said this poem was written after Raleigh son disrespected his father's good friend, whom I think was Marlowe. Marlowe had gotten drunk and passed out, and young Raleigh (who was also probably drunk), thought it good sport to put him in a wheelbarrow and wheel him around to be laughed at. His father was furious, and wrote this fiercely pointed poem to him.

Subject: RE: Sir Walter Raleighs poem to his son
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Nov 23 - 07:39 AM

Raleigh was a horrible bowsey.