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BS: Traveller Discrimination Update...
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Subject: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 09 Nov 02 - 06:46 AM Loath as I am to bring this up again, there were a few well meaning questions from some Catters who really wished to know about the possibilty that an American community was discriminated about... so here is the latest. Ms. Toogood was arrested last night, just as government offices were closing for the weekend.This means she cannot speak to her lawyers until Monday. She was arrested on a warrent from Michigan, for getting her learning permitt in the only manner a nomadic individual may, as she had no fixed abode. She was not given a chance to come in, but was arrested in front of her two crying children. I have been thinking about the pettiness of arresting Ms. Toogood on a Friday evening, in front of her two children ... mind you by a prosecutor who claims to be concerned with the well being of Traveller children. What message is he sending these children about their mother. Her "crime"? She has no fixed home, so she had a post office business for an address on her learner's permit, which has become a dry cleaner. For this she is being called a felon. This is a matter of criminalizing a community, not a criminal community. Weigh this against abuse of the public's trust in the prosecutors office, to arrest a mother who has complied in full with every demand of the court. When she supposedly "fled" the state, the first time, there was no warrant against her. This same prosecutor now charges her with the theft of material from a store, on an identification made a month after the fact, when her image as the most hated mother in America has been splashed on TV screens and newspaper pages through out the nation. The original description of the individuals who stole the cloth, was two Mexican women. At the time, Ms. Toogood's hair was blond, but even with dark hair, I don't know of many folks who would confuse her for what most folks think of as looking "Mexican," What we are seeing in the continued prosecution of Ms. Toogood is a prosecutor acting out the belief that Travellers are criminals by reason of their ethnicity and their culture of nomadism. I would remind the prosecutor's office that the culture of Traveller nomadism comes from the small minded prejudice against people referred to as "Gypsy." A people's culture is their birthright as is the expectation of fairness in the US courts. I believe that the small minded use of an office of trust should be a thing which the American people hold unworthy of our traditions of justice and liberty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: chip a Date: 09 Nov 02 - 11:09 AM Absolutely perfect last sentence there InOBU. :-), Chip |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: katlaughing Date: 09 Nov 02 - 11:33 AM Hmmm...I've always used a POB on my driver's license as I don't like broadcasting my street addy. Larry, can you catch us up on what went on with her and her kids? I missed it. Was she reunited with them, etc.? Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: Celtic Soul Date: 09 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM Hmmmm...Arrested *again*? See, I don't watch TV. As in, at all. I did not know she'd been released at all for the beating of the one child yet. She was arrested in front of 2 *other* kids, or was the one she hit amongst those numbered? I had thought that her kids were in the care of relatives, and the one she hit was in foster care until the authorities charged her, or the like...so, what's all this then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: reggie miles Date: 09 Nov 02 - 12:01 PM I'm not disputing the facts you've presented here but from what I've gathered about these folks via newscasts it seems that they have made their bed as the saying goes. They've preyed upon innocent people, posing as honest laborers and then used deceit to con money with no intention of providing the services they represent. It's called fraud. I'm fairly certain that we're just discovering the tip of the iceberg concerning their wrong doings and I believe that this is what's behind this prosecutor's actions. It has been difficult for authorities to prosecute this sort crime. Those who profit by such acts quickly move about from community to community to remain undetected by local law enforcement. This unfortunately is the same pattern used by the men who shot all of those innocent people on the east coast. They too evaded capture via constant flight, or as you so innocently refered to it as, "being nomadic". This is a group of career criminals that has been sought after by many for their deeds. Now, with this recent media attention, perhaps we'll start to see them begin to reap the rewards of their actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 09 Nov 02 - 06:57 PM Dear Reggie" Your reflections... "I've gathered about these folks via newscasts it seems that they have made their bed as the saying goes...This is a group of career criminals that has been sought after by many for their deeds. Now, with this recent media attention, perhaps we'll start to see them begin to reap the rewards of their actions..." make my point that the press and these prosicutions are discriminitory. Travellers are not nomadic for the purpose of crime. This is a fact born out, not only by my field work, but by that of Dr. Ruth Andersen Ph.D., Dr. Mary Beth Anderek Ph.D., and the small handful of other social scientists who have bothered to study these people. NBC Dateline, not only had access to the above, and Dr. Ian Handcock, and a few others, they did pre interviews with us, and did not air what we had to say... and so, small wonder you think that the traveller community are "Traveling Criminals" as the Florida Police website calls them. This is the nexus between racial profiling by the police and bad reporting. Keep questioning. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: greg stephens Date: 09 Nov 02 - 07:19 PM Now, I know I know sod all about the details of this case, and I also reckon InObu's gone a bit over the top about it, in the course of long discussions about it. but so have his opponents, and there is plenty of prejudice running through many postings on this subject. I personally am a white male, well educated of Protestant background and living in England. Therefore more or less immune to the average kinds of prejudice knocking around in the world. But I must say that I lived on a boat for fifteen years, and moved from palce to place, and I expperienced at first hand everything from verbal to physical abuse, and also the necessity of resorting to underhand(and indeed illegal) subterfuges in order to deal with the authorites and businesses in order to obtain the necessities that other people take for granted. So good on you, InObu(Larry) for bringing these matters to our attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Nov 02 - 07:59 PM "... it seems that they have made their bed as the saying goes. They've preyed upon innocent people." Give a dog a bad name and hang him. People who hate Jews say that kind of thing when a case comes up of a fraudster who's Jewish, for example. "These people" and "they", refering pejoratively to a whole group of total strangers, on the basis of their ethnic identity. This latest twist of the story InOBU reports here sounds like harassment to me. An address is just a way of enabling people to reach you, and a post box or suchlike is as good a way as any. If that's not good enough for getting a provisional driving licence (which is what we'd call your "learner's payment"), that seems pretty strange. I used to have the impression that the USA was relatively free of red tape and petty bureuicracy compared to England, but one way and another, what with this and other stuff (rules about hanging out washing for example) I'm getting the impression that ain't so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: mack/misophist Date: 09 Nov 02 - 09:30 PM InOBU: To a degree, there IS another side to the question. In elementary school I was good friends with a Mexican/Celtic Traveler. Until his family found out and sent him off to stay with relatives. If Travelers aren't allowed to be friends with Gadje, how can Gadje be friends with Travelers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 10 Nov 02 - 12:57 AM It appears, Ms. Toogood should get herself to a nunnery.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: EBarnacle1 Date: 10 Nov 02 - 01:30 AM As Larry knows, I lived on my boat in New York for five years. At the time the state attempted to create a situation similar to the laws that they are attempting to foist upon us. I was in a position to join with others and fight these regulations successfully. (One of the details of these regs was that people could not stay overnight on their own boats in any harbor in New York State.) I would be very unsurprised to see the same thing attempted again in the name of "National Security." Does that equate me with the snipers? It certainly makes me suspect in the eyes of those who try to pin everyone down. Addresses of convenience have the potential to be taken away from us. Yes, I mean us, not just the Irish Travellers. Anyone who stands out risks being the peckee in a "peckin' party." A few years ago, I learned that the homeless cannot get most jobs as a result of having no fixed address. As one who is often one check away from that condition, I really see that most of us are more vulnerable than we realize. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: reggie miles Date: 10 Nov 02 - 11:39 AM Larry, I guess I did make a classic move, which is to say, I stepped into the middle of an ongoing conversation without reading the previous posts on the subject and therefore posted out of ignorance/innocence about this subject. I had remembered seeing the previous thread but hesitated to explore it then, so I searched for it and found what amounted to an extensive number of posts. There are so many that it was too much to read in one sitting. I do see your point about the media and how it can easily alter our perception of an act, an event and a people. You see, as someone who has traveled the west half of this country hitch hiking and sleeping in the bushes or where ever or in the back of a beat up old station wagon, when I had one, I too have been on the receiving end of such wholesale distrust. The little band of folks I had such experiences with for about four years, The Buzzards, had, on numerous occasions, been denied the opportunity to busk, which was how we made our living, on city streets, at festivals and events of all sorts. We were even refused service at certain eating establishments because we were hitch hikers. This didn't seem to bother the veteran members of the group as much. They seemed to take this kind of prejudice as part and parcel with the job of offering music for donations, but being a newbie to this sort of travel, it was shocking and sobering to me to feel the sting of this misguided caution. Our appearance certainly made us stand out from 'normal' folk, but we were in fact harmless, even if we looked kind of scary with our long hair, dreads, furry faces, patchworked jeans and tie dyed shirts. The term we used was Rainbow Gypsies. We were remnants of an earlier time. We played bluegrass, oldtimey, fiddle tunes, political songs, along with songs we had written and tried to use as much humor as we could. It didn't matter to those who turned us away. We were judged by many on our appearance alone. Someone once asked me, "Why do you busk for a living?" I just smiled and said, "Somebody's got to." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 10 Nov 02 - 06:03 PM Bless ya Reggie... Mysophist... If your friend used the word Gajde, he was not a Traveller, he was Roma. Roma often have great friends who are non-Roma, as to Travellers. Yours may have been a singular incident. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: NicoleC Date: 10 Nov 02 - 08:40 PM AP: "SOUTH BEND, Ind. (AP) - A woman caught on videotape beating her 4-year-old daughter has been arrested on a warrant issued in Michigan for allegedly giving false information on a license application. Authorities say Madelyne Toogood, 26, gave a false address and name when applying for a Michigan driver's license and state identification card in May. A conviction could carry up to five years in jail." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 10 Nov 02 - 09:32 PM When the nature of the life, she has chosen is, "living by your wits" she should have elected early on to go "main-stream".
Her greatest crime (next to being a child abuser - which is HORRIFIC!) is no crime at all...the woman is just plain stupid. The sooner her fellow travelers agree to secure her in a nice caravan, under the control of her kind, the better off she, and the special interests she is mis-representing, will be.
I'm sure the rest of the traveler community are kind, loving, (and if coniving, then intelligent) individuals.
Sincerely,
You don't send out a chicky to do a fox's job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 10 Nov 02 - 10:31 PM Hi Nicole the "false information..." was that, as she did not have a fixed place of abode, she used a mailbox store to get her mail the like of mail boxes are us... her caravan park did not have mail delivery, she did not have a phone of her own, so she used the number of a close relitive, if this deserves five years in jail, I don't wish to be a citizen of this country any more. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:36 AM So is it a crime to use a HotMail email address instead of one associated specifically with your PC at home? And what's the difference? "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." Well, we know what happened to him... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Nov 02 - 07:44 AM Authorities say Madelyne Toogood, 26, gave a false address and name when applying for a Michigan driver's license and state identification card in May. A conviction could carry up to five years in jail. getting her learning permitt in the only manner a nomadic individual may These two informations from different posters don't fit yet with each other. If the giving-a-wrong-name information is true this can hardly be the only way a nomadic indicidual may get that permit. However, even if she gave a wrong name it was way back in May, and I am far from convinced that an arrest on a Friday evening was the only possible option. 'Overreaction' seems to be a mild word for describing the authorities' handling of the case. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:50 AM From this South Bend, Indiana, Tribune article: http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2002/11/09/local.20021109-sbt-MARS-A10-Toogood_arrested_on.sto November 9, 2002 Toogood arrested on Michigan warrant By GWEN O'BRIEN, Tribune Staff Writer SOUTH BEND -- Madelyne Toogood, caught apparently beating her 4-year-old daughter by a department store security camera in September, got a break from a local judge Friday -- but her good luck did not last long. Toogood, 26, found herself back behind bars Friday night after South Bend police picked her up on a felony warrant out of Monroe County, Michigan. The warrant is apparently from a May incident in the city of Monroe, south of Detroit, where Toogood allegedly supplied Michigan motor vehicle workers with a false address and name when applying for a driver's license and state identification card. The felony is punishable with up to five years in jail. Earlier in the day, St. Joseph Superior Court Judge William Albright agreed to modify the conditions of Toogood's pretrial release on the charges related to the alleged beating of her daughter Martha. For that, she faces a felony child battery charge and a misdemeanor false informing charge. The judge permitted Toogood to report in person only one day per week to the Adult Probation Department, rather than every weekday as she has been doing for six weeks. Until her arrest Friday night, Toogood was free on $7,000 cash bond. Now, she is expected to be extradited to Monroe County, according to South Bend police supervisor Sgt. Scott Ruszkowski. Cpl. Rick Ruszkowski and Patrolman Brian Evard arrested Toogood at Maple Lane Apartments, off Bendix Road, at 7 p.m. Friday. "We received information from Mishawaka police of a probable address where we could find her. We found her at Maple Lane Apartments, where she apparently had been living," Ruszkowski said. While arresting her, Cpl. Ruszkowski took a closer look at the Cadillac Toogood claimed to be hers. Cpl. Ruszkowski discovered possible evidence that the vehicle identification number might have been altered. Police impounded the car so that detectives could determine whether the car was stolen. Sgt. Ruszkowski said Toogood's two sons were at the apartment and that her mother apparently took them home with her. Her mother already has custody of Martha. Recently, Toogood was charged in LaGrange County (Indiana) with theft. There is also an outstanding warrant in Lansing (Michigan) alleging use of false identification at a traffic stop. Tribune writer Marti Goodlad Heline contributed to this report. ------------------------------- Actually, the Michigan false-information charge is old news. There was an Associated Press story that appeared in the South Bend Tribune a little over a week before the arrest: http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2002/10/31/local.20021031-sbt-MICH-D4-Police__Toogood.sto (archived article, reprinted in part below) October 31, 2002 Police: Toogood facing false information charges The Associated Press A woman caught on videotape beating her 4-year-old daughter in Mishawaka used false information in May at a Secretary of State Office in Michigan, state police said. Madelyne Toogood, 26, is expected to be charged for giving false information, The Detroit News reported Wednesday. The Mishawaka resident also has an outstanding warrant in Lansing for using fake identification at a traffic stop. "When she comes back (to Monroe), we'll take care of that, too," state police Detective Sgt. David Meyer said. Toogood supplied Michigan motor vehicle workers in Monroe, Mich., with a fake address and name when applying for a driver's license and state identification card. The felony is punishable with up to five years in jail.... ------------------- So the arrest itself is no surprise. What is surprising to me is that Madelyne did not turn herself in to Michigan authorities to face those charges instead of waiting to be arrested in front of two of her children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: GUEST,Howard the Turtle Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:10 AM Hey SharonA, Thanks for the two reports. They shed a lot more light on the subject than Larry would have us see. Larry is constatntly going on about media pejudice in this case. However, Larry is the one who has constantly fed us biased and very partial information in support of this alleged child beater. According to Larry, the latest arrest of alleged child beater was simply a case of supplying a dropbox type of address becuase she's a traveller. However, your reports show that it was more than that. Larry also led us to believe that this latest arrest of the alleged child beater was simply a matter of harrassment. Your reports show that this was an arrest that was expected and that she had plenty of time and opportunity to turn herself in, rather than face arrest in front of her children. Every bit of dishonesty with which Larry charges the media in this case of the alleged child beater applies to himself. In fact, the dishonesty applies more to Larry becuase he is the one who paints himself as the epitome of sincerity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: Amos Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:44 AM Oh for crying out loud, Howard! I submit that you have now categorized this woman as a child-beater as a result of the single incident ropeviously discussed, and having so labeled her -- every thing else takes on dramatically dire dimensions. I think it is absurd that someone should be arrested for showing incorrect papers. As for dishonesty, your remarks --especially those directed at Larry --are unfounded. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: GUEST,Howard the Turtle Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:00 AM No Amos, I have not labelled her a "child-beater" on the "basis of a single incident," previously discussed in the Mudcat Forum, as you suggest. I said she was an alleged child beater on the basis of the criminal charges filed by the authorities and on the basis of video tape of the incident that I have repeatedly seen. Single incident? Maybe it was a coincidence that video cameras were rolling on the single occasion that this alleged child beater allegedly beat her child. However, most experts in the field tell us that such incidents are usually part of pattern behaviour. As for what I said about Larry. Read the information that Larry supplied and compare it to the more complete stories supplied by SharonA. Larry's bias and slanting of the story regarding this alleged child beater is rather obvious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:04 AM "I think it is absurd that someone should be arrested for showing incorrect papers." Tell that to the families of the 2800 people murdered in the WTC on 9/11/01 by terrorists moving about on false papers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: NicoleC Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:34 AM Amos, I had to agree with Howard somewhat. It is very difficult to take Larry's allegations seriously when he fails to mention vital facts like the use of a fake name. Using a fake name is not something that a law-abiding citizen does. We can argue that it's culturally based or not, but I'm pretty sure every Traveller knows that applying for false identification documents is breaking the law. And if her PO Box firm is now a dry cleaner, it seems clear that it wasn't a legitimate place (that, as a nomad) she picked up her mail, else she'd know that the place had been out of business long enough to be replaced with dry cleaning equipment. I failt to see how we should all sympathize with poor Mrs. Toogood. Her past relatively minor crimes are clearly coming back to haunt her because she's being investigate for a major one. This happens to all kinds of people. Once they arrest somewhere, all the old warrants come out of the woodwork. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:59 AM I thought Amos was only pointing to something which bothered me too a lot in Howard's post: The use of the phrase 'alleged child beater' in about each second sentence whether it contributed to the understanding or not. To mention it once, as the articles posted did, is fine with me. It just helps my sometimes bad memory to remember where from I know the name. But to mention it as often as possible has no informative purpose but only the purpose to evoke emotion unnessessarily. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Nov 02 - 12:56 PM Names are quite compicated. It's pretty commonplace in my experience for people to have several names which they use on different occasions and in different settings - most especially women, with maiden names and married names. Then people have middle names they sometimes use as if they were surnames, or have places or trades attached. ("Jones the Post"). I don't think this kind of thing would happen in many civilised countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:11 PM Kevin (McGrath) says, "It's pretty commonplace in my experience for people to have several names which they use on different occasions and in different settings..." That may be true, but on the occasion of applying for a driver's license or a state identification card in the setting of the United States, one is supposed to give one's legal name, and there are laws against using other names for the purpose. I would be surprised if this was not the case in any other civilized country! Here is a page listing the identification requirements for obtaining a drivers license or personal identification card in the state of Michigan: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/DE40_032001_20459_7.pdf (this is an Acrobat Reader document) According to this page, "Every individual applying for an original driver license, temporary instruction permit, or personal identification card must present acceptable identification documents for proof of name and date of birth. Any identification document presented is subject to approval by Department of State personnel...." Following this is a list of acceptable documents, and adult applicants are required to present three documents from the list, including at least one from the "primary group" that includes a US government-issued birth certificate (not a hospital birth certificate), military ID, passport, out-of-state photo ID and out-of-state drivers license with photo. Then there's a "secondary group" of documents that includes an automobile title or registration (from Michigan or another state) and an order for a name change from a US court, among other documents. Apparently, Madelyn Toogood submitted one or more documents with a false name. If so, this is more serious than just telling an official that one wants to use one's maiden name or some such. I don't see why it's somehow less than "civilized" to arrest someone for submitting a document or documents to state authorities, required for proof of name, that contains a false name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:40 PM It's uncivilised to put people in prison for this kind of crap. Whether in Kabul or Baghdad or Michigan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: NicoleC Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:15 PM Well, she hasn't been put in prison for it yet, nor has she been convicted for it yet. I'm not sure how Michigan works, but often there are misdeeds classified as a degree of misdemeanor or degree of felony. Then a possible sentence is assigned to the degree. A maximum of 5 years doesn't mean that's the usual sentence or even one that's used at all for a particular crime -- it means that the court cannot apply a sentence any longer than that. A vindictive judge cannot exceed his/her authority and impose an unreasonable sentence just because s/he wants to. (Often there are minimum sentences, too.) I gather that punishments for fake IDs are on the rise around the country to help prevent identity theft and credit fraud. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 11 Nov 02 - 04:39 PM Thanks, Nicole. Actually, Toogood was behind bars last Friday night at least, according to the article I posted. Whether she's posted bail since then, I don't know, nor do I know if she's even permitted to post bail before she's extradited to Michigan. I disagree with Kevin's assertion that it is uncivilized to sentence people to prison for submitting false information in an attempt to obtain forms of identfication that would then contain that false information. My guess is that Michigan in particular, which borders Canada, has problems with people attempting to conceal their identities to enter the US or Canada illegally and/or to escape prosecution for crimes committed across the border, in addition to the usual reasons that people have for wanting to conceal their identities from state or federal authorities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: Amos Date: 11 Nov 02 - 05:25 PM Wal, authorities are well and good, and I have never falsified my name on anything with any legal import, although I have invented a few poets here on the 'Cat. However, I concur with Kevin that it should be a civil offense only, never a criminal one in and of itself. If it is done for the purposes of committing a crime, that's an independent fact. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: NicoleC Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:02 PM I agree with that. It's not a misdeed that seems to warrant classification as a felony. But this is a function of the legislature, not the police or the prosecutor's office. It is not reasonable to blame the prosecutor in one jurisdiction for Mrs. Toogood's outstanding warrant in another state as an example of an "abuse of the public trust." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:04 PM 1. Yes, she still is in jail. 2. As previosly said, the names she has used are legally hers. My wife practices law under the name Eugenie Gilmore. On our marrige licence it sais Gilmore - Otway, on different credit cards she is Gilmore, Gilmore Otway, or Otway, she has held driver's licences under the name Gilmore and Otway... when they come to arrest my wife, we will become nieghbors of McGrath. 3. ""I think it is absurd that someone should be arrested for showing incorrect papers." Tell that to the families of the 2800 people murdered in the WTC on 9/11/01 by terrorists moving about on false papers. " Has got to be the stupidest comment on this subject, bar none. 4. Last night someone cut in front of Johney's car and he went off the road, causing damage to his car. Luckly the children and he were not harmed. The jail did not allow his family to tell Madlynne that the children are OK, while several news reports speculated that the children where hurt. Damn me, but I long for the free and easy life of a "Gypsy". Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:06 PM To the annonimous guest... I was about to appolgise for calling your comments stupid. However, as I do, I am reminded of that day, I was there, who knows if you were or not, as you are not using your name... so, I will let things just stand. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: NicoleC Date: 11 Nov 02 - 06:10 PM Larry, did she use her maiden name, or are you just speculating? For all we know at this point from news report, she could have used MY name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 11 Nov 02 - 08:15 PM I have been told by the famly she has always and only used on of her two maiden names, or her married name. Travellers and Roma I know, use either father or mother's names, to give you an example of why, I know a young Vlax Roma fellow Steven K... who's father is John U... and mother's last name is K..., for a complex set of reasons his affiliation to his mother's family is stronger, as the K... family have been traditionaly very conected to his city. There are a few law review articals on the use of different family names by Roma and Travellers, but if you spend time in the west of Ireland you find that use of paternomins is common as there is a small pool of names in isolated towns, so my late friend Sean Nee was more often know as Sean Luke, his father's first name. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:22 PM OBU - You are ludicrous!!! I have been told by the family
From your postings regarding the situation - and "her family" - the TRUTH is in neither your nor the family.
If I was ever looking for validation of justified "prejudices" against travelers this thread will be a good place to start.
Thank you for a re-education that confirms the truths of my parents.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Nov 02 - 09:43 PM Now what InOBU said there sounds very likely. That's the way names actually work in a non bureaucratised culture. Oficials seem to have a lot of difficulty in understanding that names work differently in different cultures. Refugees and immigrants generally can have a lot of trouble like that - the officials will seize on one name that they decide is the family name, and quite likely it'll be a given name or a patronymic, and any attempts to set the record straight tend to open up suspicions, so people let the mistake ride; and then some other official picks a different name, and it ends up with different documents with different names, and accusations of using false identities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: NicoleC Date: 11 Nov 02 - 11:48 PM I've gone by my middle name all of my life (which simply confuses computers and government workers), so when dealing with the IRS or the DMV or such, I'm smart enough to give them the name they know me as, whatever I may call myself among my friends and family. Most of my family does the same thing -- it's traditional for us to use middle names instead. Pain in the butt? Oh yeah. Has it stopped anyone from naming their kids that way? Nope. I've known literally hundreds of women who have successfully navigated maiden/married names (also a pain), and many of them also had multiple married names (bigger pain). Nor are we talking about recent immigrants who may not understand or people with a language barrier who can't read the form very well. We're talking about people who chose to come to the US a long, long time ago, and should be well aware of the legal and cultural issues surrounding names by now. Pick one for the government, for heaven's sake, and use as many other names as you want in private. So even if this is a a simple case of maiden vs. married names, the adage "when in Rome" comes to mind. Being a law-abiding citizen is not obeying the laws you want to, but obeying them all -- and if you don't, there are consequences. If a cop gives you a ticket for speeding, you don't get to say that you're Italian, and therefore your culture is to drive fast. Maybe some of the clans should get together and form a mail box co-op. Buy/lease a building, open a member-owned business, and use your member boxes as a permanent address. Some folks would have to stick around and run it, but nobody'd have to be there permanently. And if you wanted to get fancy, you could set up mail forwarding system that kept track of the different cultural names while maintaining a "public" name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: InOBU Date: 12 Nov 02 - 06:14 AM Hi Nicole... thoughtful comments! In fact, I was just about to use the same example, my brother, Dr. Thomas Otway, never officialy changed his name from Howard, my father's name, but when he was in his early teens he began to use his middle name, and now his diplomas etc. say Thomas, rather than Howard. But, as to following which laws, the reality is that there is a missuse of law when it is applied to one group conditionally. Travellers have used their traditional methods of naming for ... well as long as there have been Europeans in this country, the first Romanichal deportations to the US began in the mid seventh century. So, the when in Roma arguement falls short, as it is as much their world here as anyone else's. Also, they have not gotten into tight straights for using their names, in the same way my wife, brother and you have not... prejudice is found in taking what is normal practice for most, and using it against the suspect class for discrimination as part of a package of looking for what we can charge them with... as is happening here. Madalynne and her family were shocked that this charge of false ID came up, as to them it was as innocent as your use of your middle name. Garg! Social scientists often put faith in the testimony of their subjects when they get to know them over time. In the seven or eight years that I have known Madalynne's sister, she has not lied to me yet, that I am aware of, and it would do them no good to set up folks working for them with lies, when these things are pending in court. As far as the truth being in me, we all try to listen to that still small voice of truth. Sometimes it is covered over by the noise of our daily life so some of us wait quietly as I do. So, I try to stay close to the truth. In truth, I have an immage of Quasi Motto, (me) sitting on the high towers of Notra Dame, conversing about truth and Esmirelda's family with one of the Gargoyls, watching the Seine barges drift by.... Time to ring the bells... Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 12 Nov 02 - 08:51 AM I concur with Nicole: having a tradition of using more than one name for oneself does not justify breaking a law that specifies the choosing of one legal name for legal documents. But Madelyne Toogood stands accused of submitting a false address to Michigan state authorities as well as a false name, in May of this year. Larry said, in his first post to this thread, "She has no fixed home, so she had a post office business for an address on her learner's permit, which has become a dry cleaner." My question is: when did it become a dry cleaning business? My reason for asking is that Toogood gave the address of a dry cleaning business as her home address – 1801 East Bristol Street, Elkhart, Indiana – to her probation officer after she was arrested in Indiana on the felony child battery charge. Same dry cleaner? If so, how can it be that Toogood spent the summer in Indiana without ever checking her mailbox and discovering that there was a dry cleaner there instead? My information about this address comes from this CNN article: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/09/28/video.child.beating/ (reprinted in part below) Mother charged with beating child arrested again Charged with giving fake address, released on bail Saturday, September 28, 2002 Posted: 10:54 AM EDT (1454 GMT) MISHAWAKA, Indiana (CNN) -- A woman videotaped while allegedly beating her 4-year-old daughter, according to police, was arrested on a misdemeanor charge Friday of providing authorities with a false address. Madelyne Gorman Toogood, 25, allegedly gave a fake address to her probation officer. She turned herself in Friday night and was released minutes later on $2,000 bail, according to Deputy Rachel Wolvos of the St. Joseph's County Sheriff's Department, which had issued an arrest warrant for her on the charge of falsifying information. A court date has been set for October 10, Wolvos said. The misdemeanor is punishable by up to six months in jail, according to St. Joseph's County prosecutor Chris Toth. Toth said the address Toogood gave -- - 1808 East Bristol St. -- was actually a dry cleaner in an Elkhart, Indiana, strip mall, an address her husband had listed on his driver's license as well. "We still do not have a permanent address for this individual and that continues to concern us, particularly because we are talking about the welfare of little Martha Toogood [the 4-year-old daughter]," Toth said. "Obviously we were all aware that these individuals had had a transient lifestyle and there was some history of fraud being involved in their background." -------------------------------------- Here's the website of a health-care center at that same address: http://www.elkharthomecare.com/rhhc.html The center has a toll-free phone number: 1-888-RHHC-111. If someone were to call that number and ask how long the dry cleaner in the same strip mall has been there, I wonder what the answer would be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:06 AM If I needed to give an address, and I didn't have a fixed home at the time, I'd give the address of some shop or office or friend where they knew me and would pass messages and mail on to me. Wouldn't everyone do that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:13 AM Kevin (McGrath): Perhaps the address of a friend, if one made clear to one's probation officer or one's DMV official that it was the address of a friend, but certainly not the address of a shop or office. We're not talking about passing on messages and mail; we're talking about giving the address where one lives, even if it's a temporary address. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: greg stephens Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:29 AM i wish some of the people snapping at InObu's heels would take a few years out and try living a peripatetic life in tents/ caravans/ trailers/ boats/cardboard boxes or whatever.I think your experiences in dealing with authority in those circumstances would seriously modify the tone of your postings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:44 AM Just in case someone might think that the address in Elkhart is in a location that would have made it impossible for Toogood to go there and see that it was not a "post office business", here is a Mapquest map showing that the Elkhart address is only about 10 miles from Mishawaka (where the alleged child-beating took place in the Kohl's store parking lot): http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?pan=w&mapdata=IMy2jjoKxlmTQHzabL5klYh%2b%2bwuB0hbAETeGpqWvyZcmJ8G3sLIadLl3wjufWXUxqBHnJcALc6U6rlduc4%2fFyWUDy58ZwKP7UjBzxO4VeE082klDGdCNCwzPf%2b04lUyZsLKN8zwdL2HfCH%2fELKl0VV9cDZxkPU%2bvoYsoPud3lBdr4RZAJqmilYUukY%2bC4mcX55Un420qlZEuuJeSnA5%2brGid%2fJgWA32Tho9Asi4EyTv14rlm4gb46UZjWRLDTn77X0hQwb8sslN9USA77GmDQ9tcm0Fg6SCBNQkm04DJwGvjRGNJN2ivm%2fXSzLGVWvai8JFzrbX4hFS066fBzwRxK5kV0CCSFpyFPQS8Q9BbLBXjrVSnafh5yA%3d%3d Link to the map |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: greg stephens Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:47 AM What language was that, SharonA? Romany? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:50 AM Your address is the place to which letters should be addressed so as to reach you. It may be the same as the place you live in, but not necessarily. And for someone leading a nomadic life, by definition any usable address has to be a non-residential address. I'm sure that if someone without a fixed address, when filling in an official form gave as their address the place where they happened to be on the particular day, but very likely wouldn't be the next day, that would be seen as breaking the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: GUEST Date: 12 Nov 02 - 09:50 AM Greg Stephens, You're so right. We should lay off Larry and certainly lay off Ms. Gorman, I mean Ms. Toogood. The Travellers have a different kind of society from the rest of us in America. It is cultural imperialism to impose our laws upon them. They should be exempt from the laws that the rest of us have to abide by. It is their right to opt out of our system and we must respect that. It is racist for any of us to expect them to respect the law or face the consequences like anyone else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:05 AM Kevin (McGrath): I rent a post office box myself (in PA, USA), and that's where letters are addressed to reach me, including letters from the Pennsylvania Department of Motor Vehicles. However, I am still required by law to give the street address of my residence to the PA DMV. Both addresses appear on my PA drivers license. I agree that, for someone leading a nomadic life, the choice of an address to use for legal documents must be a dilemma. But let me say again that in this case, Madelyne Toogood gave a business address, at a strip mall, to her probation officer after her September arrest when she was required to give her residential address at that time – an address to which the officer could go to see her if she were to fail to report to that officer as required (not just a place to receive mail). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Traveller Discrimination Update... From: SharonA Date: 12 Nov 02 - 10:44 AM Oops, sorry, I should have been saying that Toogood allegedly gave the business address of a dry cleaner to her probation officer – she is reported to have given the business address to her probation officer – in September of this year. According to Larry, she did definitely give a business address, that is presently the location of a dry cleaner, for her Michigan learner's permit. |