New cartoon from R. Crumb

Subject: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST,Metzger
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 05:10 PM

Remember Fritz the Cat, Mr. Natural, Cheap Thrills and Keep On Truckin'? Here's R. Crumb's latest cartoon.

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: DougR
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:21 PM

Enjoy? Surely you jest. What a bunch of crap.

DougR

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:24 PM

R Crumb was indeed a sick man but didn't he die a while back? Without kin, I think. Which means one can probably fake his work.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:30 PM

Do you think he is *trying* to be offensive? ?:^o ...and I am. Big suprize...

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:35 PM

And the protocols of the Elders of Zion ????

Mt late father was one of the first troops into Belson in 1945, to his dying day he had difficulty in talking about what he saw.

Gareth

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:52 PM

Historians have established that "Protocols" was a genuine document. It was written by the czarist secret police.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 07:54 PM

Crumb was and is an artist with the ability to make almost anything look UGLY. Including young women. Yech!

Now I see why. According to the biographical material on that site "Crumb actually despised the Hippies and everything they stood for." Ah, hah! Now I see why I instinctively despised him so much at the time (and boy was I puzzled that the other long-haired kids actually liked him...I could plainly see the contempt he had for virtually everybody and everything he drew...specially young people).

There was nothing I liked about R.Crumb. I thought he was a sick-minded, nasty creep with a psychological problem of some kind.

Looks like I was right on the money.

Interestingly enough, many of the faults he viciously exposed in the hippies WERE genuine faults (there were plenty to find), and many of the faults he points to in present society are genuine faults too...but his solutions are based on jingoistic hatred, extraordinary Anglo-German racism, the closest thing to the Nazis I've seen yet in my life. Goebbels would love this stuff.

His indictments of the media, the dishonest business mergers, the control mechanisms at the top by the rich...are pointed and appropriate. But then he pins it all on a single cultural group...the Jews. I have criticized Israel's national policy many times, but I was not doing that on the basis of attacking Jews, just on the basis of the political policy itself, period.

And what is his Final Solution to domination by World Jewry (as he would put it, NOT I): Blow up the World and fulfill the Apocalypse.

Jesus will presumably rescue the "good people" (meaning R.Crumb and all true, white, Anglo-saxon Americans), and the rest will burn.

Is this guy serious? Does he mean it, or is the whole thing a satire on Right Wing extremism at the final limit of madness?

I don't know, but I know this. R. Crumb is a very fear-twisted man. His art expresses that in every line and nuance.

Just one thing I want to know here. Is he really serious? Or is he nuts? Or both?

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Peg
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:02 PM

have any of you ever seen the documentary film "Crumb?" Absolutely amazing and fascinating; if you think this guy is weird you should seee the rest of his family...

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:03 PM

Gag. If that's satire, it's not very good satire.

Okay, I've finally decided. I dislike the self-righteous bigots who hang onto to the medieval stereotype of Jews as money-hungry baby-killers MORE than the tremblers and apologists who insist that any criticism of Israel's government makes you a self-righteous Jew-hating bigot.

Glad to get that straightened out.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:12 PM

Right on, Nicole. Well and succinctly said. Funny thing is, I think it's the same foundation of fear that fuels each of those opposing camps and sets them at each other's throats.

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:14 PM

"Is he serious?"   Depends what you mean by serious. Yes, he's serious in what he's trying to get across, and no he very obviously doesn't mean the anti-everything ethnic crap that he presents us with.

The last couple of frames indicate very clearly where he actually stands - he's saying the real enemies of us all are the clean-cut naizis who'd destroy the world in the cause of cleansing it from ordinary screwed up mortals of every race and colour.

Whether his way of getting this message across is the best way is a matter of opinion, and I'm not sure what my opinion is, and in a world and a country where people aren't always that adept at reading between the lines, it's bound be be taken the wrong way. But taking it that literal way is the wrong way to take it.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:15 PM

Pretty slimy.

And the point of starting a thread and posting that is. . . ?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:24 PM

McGrath of Harlow seems to appologize Crumb crap when he writes:

"The last couple of frames indicate very clearly where he actually stands - he's saying the real enemies of us all are the clean-cut naizis who'd destroy the world in the cause of cleansing it from ordinary screwed up mortals of every race and colour."

It amazes me that someone as astute Kevin thinks he is could reach that conclusion when reading Crumb's vile cartoon.

Kevin, go back to the cartoon, reread it and then click on the site's home page. You will see that its a neo-Nazi, white power site filled with some of the the most disgusting material I've ever seen.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:24 PM

Hmm. Cross-posted with McGrath. I actually hadn't read the whole thing, so I went back and read it again. I see what McGrath is getting at, but still, what a helluva way to try to make a point!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:49 PM

The fact that the cartoon gets posted on what I imagine is a pretty nasty site doesn't mean anything at all about what was in the mind of Crumb when he drew it.

Agreed Don, "a helluva way to try to make a point!!" And fair enough when people want to criticise him for trying to making it that way. I'm sure he overestimnates the capacity of people reading his cartoons to understand this type of grotesque irony. But that's different from taking it all at face vaklue, and assuming he's on the side of the clean nazis who are imagined as saying all this, and are shown in the end blowing up the world.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: BanjoRay
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 08:53 PM

Yes, its "a helluva way to try to make a point!" but it's a helluva valid point that needs making. Its a shame the nazis are too stupid to see it.
Ray

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST,Metzger
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:02 PM

Here's another one by R. Crumb.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:02 PM

If we've got to have Nazis, I'd sooner have Nazis who are stupid than Nazis who are smart.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Muskrat
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM

Two things about this cartoon and its appearance on Mudcat fascinate me:

(1) How "Metzger" found it, and why s/he posted it here (the reaction may be a clue)

(2) Why everybody who's posted here so far seems to be accepting that the cartoon is genuine Crumb.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Bull Am
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:23 PM

I hate to quibble over details, here, but this comic is not his latest work at all...It appears in a longer format in the anthology "R Crumb's America" and is copyrighted from 1993. It is significant to note that these strips were intended for his work aiming specifically at american mores and hangups, and that part of the message he was trying to convey was definitely contextual. There's always been the shock, in-your-face, confrontational element to Crumb's work, especially in his work concerning race in America, and it can't necessarily be taken at face value.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:50 PM

crap..that ain't genuine Crumb...it's not even a 'good' fake!

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 11:20 PM

Well, it looks like genuine R Crumb work to me. The second one is more obviously a joke than the first, but both are meant as very heavy sarcasm. Crumb is probably delighted that a White Power website has picked them up as authentic. I think what he has done is to strike at some very deeply held yet consciously denied racist concepts. Crumb could give a damn less what we think of him. He is and has always been a complete cynic regarding man's basic nature. He is an aberrant talent skulking on the outskirts of the culture and holding up a mirror to us...is the image hideously distorted, or are we in fact the monsters we see in the glass?

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Tweed
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 11:23 PM

I dunno Bill, I think it's Crumb and it's another prime example of the Crumb method of showing us how freakin' stupid a lotta things are. This is the same cartoonist who invented the "WhiteMan" character, who...
"stood for everything wrong with the guys who ran America. Whiteman's chief concern was keeping a tight asshole in all situations".
Nothing has ever been sacred with Crumb, but that's what makes him Crumb.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 11:51 PM

For a look at another side of Crumb click here

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 01:02 AM

You guys are reacting to a "piece" of Crumb's broader work, taken out of context to suit some "other" purpose than the one Crumb was going for. Yes it is satire and it is nasty satire because there is a very nasty strata of "thought" and action that these cartoons (and many, many, others) address. Oh "sure" Crumb is a racist and religious bigot and going by OTHER cartoons, Crumb is a child molester, a rapist, a murderer and (so on and so on).

Get REAL, people! Crumb is what he always was; a far-out razor-penned social satirist! And that is a BUNCH!, yes indeed!

There are times (and this is one of those times) when I get the impression that most Mudcatters are a brainless lot, easily flim flammed and willing to respond to the lowest knee-jerk bait that has ever been posted on the web. You guys remind me of Flakey Foont!

McGofH is always excepted! Kevin, how do you manage to rise above all this? It is truly an art!

CB

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 01:20 AM

While I agree that one of the purposes of art is to challenge the observer, an awful lot of what passes for art is just awful. I believe that Leinster's Law said that 99% of everything is shit. The problem is that many of the people who believe that anything that gets published is true are the same people who are excessively accepting of art.

If you don't like it or don't understand it, there are two possibilities: Either you are not prepared to understand it or you are being baffled with bullshit.

Crumb is/was an excellent cartoonist. That does not mean that his production is necessarily profound or does not reflect his perverse view of the world. He is/was a very messed up guy.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 01:52 AM

Oh.....MESSED UP HE IS ALLRIGHT, HA HA!

As has been pointed out, the movie is like watching TEN trainwrecks. My guess is that R would absolutely LOVE the fact that the Nazis appropriated his work and were too dumb to figure out that he WASN'T on their side. (if that's the case)

I've been aware of those excerpts for a number of years now (but I can't afford the book) and what concerns me a tad is that R seems to have lost a bit of his technical skills, but his determination to cut through all the crap (right and left) is obviously still there. At his peak he was a phenomenal artist....and let's not forget that he was certainly the most technically accomplished cartoon pornographer.....granted, a narrow field before the Japanese got involved recently.

Dig out those old ZAP comics and if you want to see (and can stand it) something even worse than the examples above, check out the Appletons (or whatever they were called), America's most disfunctional incestuous family. Crumb sure ain't everyone's cuppa tea, but neither was Lenny Bruce, or Andy Kauffman.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 11:39 AM

Hmmmmmm...Ve-e-e-e-ry interesting. Okay, so it's satire, and the Nazis were too dumb to realize it.

Fine.

R. Crumb still draws everything so it looks ugly, and he is an extraordinary cynic about humanity and about life. For that reason, I do not like his art, I do not like his general attitude, I do not like his sense of humour, I do not like the way he consistently presents women as passive animalistic fucking receptacles, I do not like the way he saw only the weaknesses and self-indulgence of the counterculture and could not see the higher ideals that it also embodied, I do not like his whole idea of satire.

He's a vulgar man. I wouldn't want to share any psychic space with him whatsoever, under any circumstances.

LEJ - You wrote: "He is and has always been a complete cynic regarding man's basic nature. He is an aberrant talent skulking on the outskirts of the culture and holding up a mirror to us...is the image hideously distorted, or are we in fact the monsters we see in the glass?"

Yeah. That's why I don't like him. He's a complete cynic. A cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

We are not the monsters we see in the glass...but Crumb, I believe, thinks we are. Too bad.

Now take Bob Dylan...he was ruthlessly cynical toward the unconscious hypocrisy he saw in society...he too attacked it with pointed satire...but he was not vulgar...and he balanced his cynicism about the negative things he saw with his celebration of the hopeful and beautiful things in life...

"to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free"

He saw the magnificence of life.

R.Crumb seems only to see the ugliness. He sees it and he adds to it, gleefully.

Like I said, Goebbels would love his stuff (if he could get by the sheer vulgarity of it)...and Goebbels was not stupid...but he knew that a good many people are, and can be manipulated.

I remember the "Appletons", by the way. Somewhat hilarious...tasteless...gross...twisted... Typical R.Crumb stuff. The dad with the pipe was classic. (Rick, I can get why you were amused by that one...I kind of was too, but it also make me feel sort of sick at the same time.)

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: van lingle
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:06 PM

Thanks for these, Metzger. For a less controversial R. Crumb there is his illustrated bio of Charley Patton at www. celticguitarmusic.com/patton1.vl

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM

Well said Little Hawk, 'specially the Dylan/Crumb comparison.

What I've discovered over the years of my life is that the folks who really woke me out of my stupor, the ones that really made me stand up and take notice were the LAST people I'd even want in my house for a visit or a conversation, they were simply too real, too dirty, too ugly, too emotional, too insane, too drunk, too narrow and bigoted, too stoned...and in general just tooooo...

'Cause I ain't. I'm a product of the middle class. I've never gone hungry, I've read FAR more than those who've infuenced me ('cause they CREATED while I was ABSORBING) and most importantly I've simply never HURT like they did.

I also discovered that trying to explain to others why I like the work of certain very controversial figures is virtually impossible. This is as close as I can get.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 01:25 PM

Good points there, Rick, Lonesome, Little and all! I hung out on Telegraph Ave in Berkeley Ca. on many a weekend day ('68-'72) when I was smaller and more Idealistic-Innocent... R.Crumb was everywhere. The style of satirical/ironic humor he uses was extremely popular amoungst anti war folks, and counter culture activists. While most of us are offended to some degree by much of his work, the majority of it is 'designed' to shock us out of the accepting stupor we're hemmed into unbeknownst to us. So much offensive crap is being foisted upon our basically 'good natured' pursuit of happiness, that it often takes some pretty extreme satire to open our eyes.

R.Crumb opens up the doors to some pretty scary and dark places. I for one hve been very influenced by this style of shocking and deep cultural transcendence... Yes, It's had to take, and no, I don'tagree with him always... But that is not the point. R.Crumb doesn't always agree with R.Crumb. The points he makes often carry a shed of relavence, and this pisses all of us off!

The full appreciation of modern day hippocracy is to pierce the illusions we live with. Once a bubble bursts, there are plenty more floating blissfully between each one of us and the "peace, love and prosperity for all... " that we deserve. ttr

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 02:02 PM

I get it, Rick. I just vastly prefer the Dylan approach to shocking people out of their stupor, that's all.

I'm reminded of when he said to a British audience (referring to "Visions of Johanna" as hypothetically being labelled a "drug song" by the press)...

"I don't write drug songs. It's just vulgar to think so..."

This is not to imply Dylan didn't take drugs at times...but he knew that his creative work had a higher purpose in mind than expressing that.

If you're going to ruthlessly satirize the stupor and blindness of middle-class culture, I would prefer it done by taking the high road rather than the low one.

After all, the commercial systems which have lulled the middle class into that stupor ARE the habitual travellers of the low road, aren't they? They are the guys who put out Hollywood "action" films, the WWF, teen slasher movies, fast food, jetskis, SUV's that roll over and kill you at the drop of a hat, assault rifles for suburban paranoids, soft and hard pornography, music videos, and all the other crap that has put people into their customary stupor.

They are just as ugly as R.Crumb's cartoon art. But not quite so unexpected, that's all. He boldly goes where bad taste has seldom gone before. I'm glad he doesn't live next door to me.

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: harpgirl
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 02:15 PM

...I saw the movie, Peg. R. Crumb is truly an "outlier" in the world of (statistical) people.

I'm surprised you aren't more tolearant, LH. I pegged you as someone willing to look into the mirror such artists hold up to our culture!

The highly creative (not just talented) people I've known over the years may have been frightening to many of us, but I find them fascinating, challenging to be around, and exquisitely sensitive to the world's bullshit!   


http://www.lambiek.net/crumb.htm

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 02:31 PM

And what is so wrong with the World Wildlife Fund, I ask?

I pretty much echo what Rick said, as my experience has been similar. Crumb was everywhere in my youth, and much of that has to do with the joy young people get out of shocking the elders. So, he fed a need in that regard certainly. The fact that he appeals more to the young than to the old is that some of us lose our tolerance for the vulgar as we mature. I've never liked the vulgarity of Crumb's work, but I could always appreciate the satire and lampooning.

As to the Mudcat base (as someone else mentioned), it has always been apparent to me that the majority of folks who post here weren't involved in 60s counterculture, and so are "shocked and appalled" at much that we valued, and speaking for myself, continue to value about that culture today. It is still very much who I am, and no, that isn't an aging hippie, as I was never a hippie. But the artistic and political aesthetic was one I identified with strongly, and still do.

Except for Crumb, and the Dead (they both sort of went hand in hand). I was never a Deadhead either. Musically I was a cross somewhere between Motown, Poco, the Byrds, New Riders, Haight acid rock, and a whole lot of so-called "protest" music--ie Weavers, Pete & Woody, Arlo, Ramblin' Jack, that sort of thing, along with my girls like Laura Nyro, Joni, Sandy Denny, and then Pentangle, Bothy Band sorts of stuff.

I was never a Fairport fan either, though. Go figure.

Comments about American literalism here, and how it handicaps critical judgement and thinking, is dead on. Also, I make what for me in an important distinction whenever I am "judging" art--I can have a deep appreciation for something, without liking it, which is often the case with art that is intended to disturb us.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 02:46 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Good one, GUEST!

It isn't that I'm not tolerant, harpgirl. I am not in favor of stripping R.Crumb naked, flaying him alive, running over him with a roadgrader, and throwing the remains into a pit full of starving sewer rats. Not at all. I think he has a perfect right to be vulgar and tasteless in his assaults on the vagaries of a half-mad, half-barbaric culture (to use Amos's marvelous expression), and I would not deny him that right. I tolerate R.Crumb and his ugly art.

He just makes me feel nauseous, that's all.

I feel the same way about the late Vaughn Bode (creator of Cheech Wizard).

It's a matter of taste, not tolerance.

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 03:02 PM

I'm guessing at least some of what the Beat poets, Ken Kesey, Hunter Thompson, and others of that era wrote would be "shocking and appalling" to most American Mudcatters too.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 03:16 PM

Here's a link to a page about "R. Crumb and his Cheap Suit Serenaders" - "a loosely organized string band playing songs from the 1920s and (occasionally) modern songs styled after the songs of the 20s. They recorded three albums in the 70s and occasionally are active today, though usually without Mr. Crumb who lives in France."

With a link which gets you sound samples. Very wholesome stuff. I get the impression that once the vitriol was out of his system he'd play sweetly on the mandolin.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 05:30 PM

OhMy! "little" is coming across a tad judgemental... or is it just me?:^}

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:45 PM

I read Ken Kesey...he had some good stuff to say, but he seemed to have difficulty creating female characters who weren't very one-dimensional. Read Hunter S. Thompson too, and really could not find much there that I wanted to spend any time on. Isn't the guy in Doonesbury modeled after Hunter S.? I mean the guy with the Chinese girl assistant, whatever his name is...

Boy, I bet Republicans hate Doonesbury almost as much as I hate Crumb's art!

I should also point out that I am not in favour of R.Crumb being suspended by his little toe over a pit of alligators either. I don't believe in cruelty to animals. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 06:45 PM

OK, as usual, I'm gonna get a little too personal for someone who uses their own name here, rather than a pseudonym.

Back when I played a lot of 'commercial gigs' I'd get hired occasionally for 'garden parties' held at the homes of very prominent Liberal Party (Canadian) Politicians.

On the surface this Party stood for 'liberal' values. Equality for all, etc.

As a strolling musician, with great hearing, and the INCLINATION to hear what was being said by the very powerful, I did a lot of eavesdropping while playing instrumental versions of Beatle songs.

The prejudices were astonishing. Visciously anti-semitic and anti-French.....some amzingly anti-female stuff when there wasn't a woman at a table. All of it accompanied by hearty laughter......and these were the "good guys".

I became (and still remain to this day) hugely cynical. R. Crumb's work was violent and ugly but it WAS satire. He took a lot of well deserved heat...mainly from the left, 'cause I doubt if the mainstream (represented by many of those politicians I spoke of) were even aware of him. Too bad, they might have seen themselves in some of his more hypocritical cartoon characters.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:01 PM

Actually, you're dead right, Rick. Crumb's work should've been shoved in the faces of the people at the top...who, as you say, are probably mostly unaware of his work...rather than being foisted on us poor, starving musicians and such at the bottom. :-)

Good points there, my man! In my experience, the Canadian Liberal Party stands for only one thing: getting elected by whatever means possible (and, of course, staying elected).

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 07:21 PM

Anyway, aside from the cartoons, there's some nice Crumby music in that link I gave, and that's perhaps a bit more likely to win him friends round here.

Hunter Thompson? I love him. Not too sure why. I doubt if we'd agree on too many things. But maybe we'd have a bunch of objects of hate and contempt in common, and that can be as good. (And he co-wrote a great song called Saints and Sots with Jimmie Ibbotsen and George Stranahan tha I've never been able to hear the whole of.)

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 08:47 PM

Hunter Thompson was a brilliant writer, very talented. Very wasted talent in the long haul sadly, but there were a lot of casualties of the era.

"Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" is a classic of the times.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 10:23 PM

And most of those casualties were due to drug abuse of one kind or another...

"Fear and Loathing in Schenectady" did not do as well for some reason.

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Tweed
Date: 16 Nov 02 - 11:30 PM

And all this vitriol coming from the Champion of Shatner? Good Lord, LH get a grip lad! A matter of taste not tolerance? Of course he's rude, lewd and crude but most of the world out there is just that way. You can't hide under a rock til it goes away. If you can be made to laugh at the ridiculous (our world) it becomes not so fearsome. Crumb is a genious at doing this for us, but you gotta trust yourself enough to let go and bust out laughing when Fat Freddy's cat sh*t's in his shoe or his "stash" or when yet another buxom teenybopper falls victim to the wise and revered Mr.Natural. ahhh...well you don't have to if you don't want to I guess, but they sure made me laugh out loud and sometimes even think for myself when I was younger.
Just try the Charley Patton comic link that Lonesome EJ left up there.

Crumb's History of Patton

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 12:34 AM

Oh, man, thanks Tweed and Van Lingle for that Biography of Patton written and drawn by Crumb. That is SOO friggin' beautiful. The drawing is vintage Crumb, as good (or better) than his sixties work. It takes time to download, but if anybody wants to really get a handle on why Crumb's work affected neophyte cartoonists like me so strongly, here it is. The respect he has for his subjects obvious. There is little satire...although much irony here.

I'm afraid there is SO MUCH 'between the lines' stuff in his work that a lot of folks simply can't get past, what first jars their senses. His sexism, for example is blatant, and admitted...while folks like Bill Clinton and Jesse Jackson mouth 'womens' rights' platitudes and get NOW endorsements, while being completely hypocritical. Sorry, I prefer (even ugly) honesty to that.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 09:30 AM

Rick, I agree that the Patton bio is beautiful work. (And might look good in leather.)

I guess the other is one of those things where I can respect the man's talents and what I think he's trying to get across but I don't like it. I've been trying to figure out why I don't like it. If it's supposed to be sarcasm, it's just too bloody obvious and unoriginal. If all it takes is to string together a story based on hateful stereotypes, anybody who wants to could do it. Most folks just don't want to. The drawings are great but but the message is either cheered by anti-semites, not understood as satire and condemned by some folks (a lot of enlightening going on there!) or the satire is as clear as day to other folks who get to about the 2nd page, say "yuck" and "duh" and go read something a little more imaginative. I don't resent the ugliness he presents so much as the lack of finesse in the story line. To me, there's no difference between his story line and the story line a KKK propagandist might dream up. Not being that familiar with his work, I'm never quite sure it is satire. The only clue is that it's over the top, but the people who believe that shit are over the top as well. The people who run the site the anti-semitic thing is on seem to feel like it expresses their view. Crumb created a great tool for them whether he meant to or not.

Perhaps that's why I don't care for Andy Kaufman's humor either. There's that part of my mind that wants to believe its all satire, and there's another part that isn't quite sure if he's pretenting to say one thing while meaning another or he's pretending to pretend.

Maybe I don't like this type of humor because I can't resolve what message the perpetrator is trying to get across and maybe that's the very same reason other people like it. Lack of clarity as a valuable skill...hmmm

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 11:34 AM

Hi Jeri, you said:

"Maybe I don't like this type of humor because I can't resolve what message the perpetrator is
trying to get across and maybe that's the very same reason other people like it. Lack of clarity
as a valuable skill...hmmm"

Me again:

You've absolutely nailed it. believe me, I think life would have been a bit clearer (although possibly less interesting) for me, had I NOT found (and continue to find) the 'fringe' humourists so funny, and thought provoking.

Attempting to explain to others why I loved the TV show "Ab Fab" was such a weird feeling, that often I just drifted into another topic, and changed the subject. Same with Kauffman, "Yes, Minister", (some) Crumb, and even the amazingly dark (and hugely popular sitcom) "Seinfeld".

I simply don't KNOW why these things are of such fascination. I don't live in a garret,(or basement) and dream up evil plans, I don't get kicks from hassling people on the internet,.....who knows, maybe I'm an axe murderer in waiting Ha Ha!

What I DO know is that I LOVE dark humour, the more ironic the better...and a huge dose of irony can be verrrry ugly. Perhaps it has something to do with THINKING I understand the motives of the creator (as opposed to the Creator!!)....like in the case of Crumb. Maybe I'm wrong, and the folks who think he's specifically an anti-semite are right. Personally I think he's anti-hypocracy...and that may be the most dangerous (and misunderstood )form of satire of all. One of the really neat things I've found is to accidently meet someone who shares your love of a fringe interest. You both smile, 'cause you don't HAVE to explain yourself.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 11:42 AM

"Hypocracy" is a government of underachievers? Or maybe it's what Libertarians want? As opposed to Hypercracy? (Sorry - I'm not normally a spelling wossname, but I saw an opportunity.)

Rick, I loved AbFab and thought what I saw of Seinfeld was funny. I like Vonnegut and there are times he can get as dark as Crumb. I guess it was just more obvious they were taking the piss. Or maybe just more obvious to me.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 11:57 AM

I agree about Crumb's shortcomings, and the comparison to Andy Kaufman is an apt one. Both were vulgar, and neither particularly adept at irony and dark humor. And I prefer my humor nearly as black as it can get.

The problem for me with both of those men was the way both of them overshot the mark regularly, and the fact that you knew they *weren't* kidding about certain things, like their sexism. Which just made them mean, and (unless you share their particular prejudices) not funny.

Vonnegut is a good example of an artist who walked that fine line better than any of his contemporaries, and I would claim, better than most any American artists since. All Vonnegut's books aren't masterpieces, but that body of work is astounding.

I think the difference is the place a Vonnegut is coming from, and the place a Crumb or a Kaufman is coming from--two very different places, and the latter two artists came from a place of bitterness. Vonnegut, on the other hand, was coming from a place of hope beyond reason.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 12:50 PM

The problem is that the ironist gets to enjoy the emotions that he is purporting to satirize, as if that somehow makes it alright, if at the last moment you can say it was all to place a mirror before evil. I think it shows a lack of selfawareness, from people who argue that they are more selfaware than the people they are supposedly satirizing. The darker the material you work with, the more responsibility you have as an artist to transform it. What I object to here, and in other "shock comedians" is the lack of transformative work. That is the only reason they should get a "pass" -- and without it, it is simply selfindulgence disguised as art, and I would argue, worse than simple propaganda from idiots. The smart ironists get to feel superior and indulge simultaneously.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 12:59 PM

Good point Peter T. Which is what separates the Crumbs and Kaufmans from the Vonneguts. I think Spike Lee was able to pull it off with his movie "Bamboozled" which was wildly unpopular with so many of the icons and sacred cows of both Hollywood film criticism and the African American community. When you have both groups pissed off at you at the same time, you know you must have done something right!

"Bamboozled" wasn't a perfect film, it was actually kind of rough around the edges. But that made me like it all the more.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 01:26 PM

Well guest and Peter, you're two of the smarter people I know, so maybe you can help me figger out how to get rid of all my ZAP comics, before they reveal even MORE, ha ha! (my memory's sooo bad I've already FORGOTTEN why I laughed so hard at Kauffman)

I have no doubt that my dark side would get me the 'lectric' chair if it ever became part of my conscious mind.

In my defence, I also laughed like a fool at The Marx Brothers, Stephen Leacock, and S.J.Perlman

Cheers and avoiding snow-shovelling at all cost.

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:15 PM

simple...send them to me Rick!I've already got half of humanity's dark side in my head anyway...one more won't make much difference...harpy

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:20 PM

How difficult I heard them say... how difficult indeed;
To walk the line of irony and skip the road of greed
The point of fact, a point of honor... when seldom speaks the truth;
Where center lines of "yours not mines"... brand noticing uncouth.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:27 PM

The Charlie Patton thing is great. Really gets the feeling of the time across. Obviously, Crumb is a man of considerable talents.

I also enjoyed the Furry Freak Brothers greatly over the years (and Fat Freddy's Cat, of course). I remember an amusing parody of Castaneda's Don Juan character, reconfigured as Don Longjuan for the Freak Brothers.

I guess it's when Crumb deals with women and sexuality that he crosses the line with me and I just get absolutely disgusted with him. My objections to Crumb are basically the same as Jeri's (above).

I would rather see him deal with something he loves (the Blues) than something he hates. He somehow has a way of becoming hateful himself in the latter case. This could be a lesson to all of us, couldn't it?

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:37 PM

My perspective on "creative artists" is quite different from yours, Peter. Having worked with many in therapy, I am of the opinion that their perceptual awareness is very different than the average individual. The individuals I have known don't often display a sense of superiority, nor do they perceive their unusual way of experiencing the world as a pass to self-indulgence. Quite often it has kept them painfully out of the mainstream of simple human acceptance, let alone misunderstood as artists.

I also don't believe artists have a "responsibility" to transform their darker art. If they had that kind of self-control to begin with, they might not identify themselves as artists at all. I believe the value of "dark" or "unusual" or highly "creative" work is the fact that it has no consciously applied boundaries which make it acceptable to the society in which it has been born.

I thought of the scenes in "The Red Violin" in China when I read your post. I believe that a society which values freedom must protect the creative voice of such individuals no matter who finds the material vulgar, or tasteless. Even Matisse was considered vulgar by some....hg

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 02:42 PM

and Little Hawk...why assume Crumb's view of women was his own? More logical to assume that is what he sees around him and he chooses to satirize it.

He was and is quite dependent on his wife although I think riding her piggy back for a sexual thrill is a bit unusual. She seems to like it, though!

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:04 PM

You may be right, harpgirl. I find it hard to believe that anyone who had what I would term a "healthy" attitude toward women would even be able to stand creating the kind of art that Crumb tends to create...but...anything is possible.

If he does see that around him...uh...why? Who is he hanging out with? I mean, I see a bit of that...and I see a lot of much more agreeable stuff too.

But, still, you could be right.

All in all, this has become a rather interesting discussion, I'd have to say.

Now Andy Kaufmann...he went the same route in a sense, as has been pointed out. His stage persona of "Tony Clifton" was horribly tasteless and vulgar...but I found it funny. That is, I did when I saw it in the movie "Man On The Moon"...cos the movie prepared me for it. If I'd not been prepared in that fashion, but had just encountered Tony unexpectedly in some nightclub, I probably would have walked out. Unless I got really curious how the hell such a thing could even be possible, and stayed to find out...

So much in life depends on how you are prepared for it beforehand.

Every great spiritual teaching I've ever seen advises people not to judge other people (which doesn't mean you don't assess their actions realistically and deal with them accordingly). It's not easy to follow that teaching when something hits you totally by surprise...and you think "What a scumbag!". Crumb is obviously bringing down some very harsh judgements on a lot of people (but figuring out WHICH people can be tricky). That seems to have had the effect of causing me to judge him harshly. Interesting...

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:21 PM

I agree and disagree with you harpgirl. I agree with the need to protect artists from society's wrath when they "hit the mark" holding the mirror up in the right place, at the right time. The now infamous Mapplethorpe exhibit comes to mind.

I also agree an artist has very little control over their ability to actually hit that mark. The target is more often missed, than hit. But that is why I give artists much more leeway than I do the society that condemns them, and whose first response (and is the mode literalists usually are stuck in) is censorship. Artists have to be allowed to fail and miss the mark when it comes to socially relevant art, and we have to be able to tolerate that. I am able to do that with Crumb, because I can appreciate what he is trying to do, even if I think his vulgarity gets in the way of him succeeding at it.

Where I disagree with you is on the artist's responsibility in their use of irony. For it to be truly effective, it must be transformative, IMO. If it isn't, it just sinks into pop culture banality, and becomes an irrelevant fringe pop phenomenon, which is what Kauffman became.

But when an artist uses irony in a way that transforms (as I believe Vonnegut's work does--and no one need agree with me about this), it becomes something transcendant. It will not only hold it's own and transcend the predictable criticism and damnation of society's mainstream, it will transcend time, and become a classic work of art.

Frankly, the number of mediocre artists willing to drape themselves in dark irony usually results in becoming parodies of themselves. The reason for that, IMO, is because they do it as a glamor accessory, not as a serious attempt to manifest the divine on earth, which is what a true artist works at their whole life long, and rarely attain. I know that sounds cliched as hell, but that is the essence of it, in my book. It is so hard to do in fact, I have learned in my old doddering middle age, to separate artists from creative people.

Methinks you might be referring to the latter, as that is where most of us reside. I can't speak for Peter T, but for me, I'm really only interested in the artists engaged in the former pursuit.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:31 PM

My guess is that this conversation is exactly the kind of effect Crumb hoped to engender with his cartoons.A less offensive piece of art which obviously attacked racist stereotypes would have generated only knowing nods on the part of those in agreement.

For the record, Crumb didn't draw the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros, Gilbert Shelton did.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Tweed
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 03:33 PM

Vell, vell, vell, Mizzder Fieltinck! Ve must try und discover der source of der dyzfunctional sense of humor mit which you iss afflicted. Tell us, of der first time you ever read "A Spaniard in the Works" or "In His Own Write" did you find yourself laughink outlouden at der odd critchers und mishapen people dat Lennon invented und sketched? Could ziss be der starting point....hmmmmmmmmmm??? How about Dr. Strangelove??? Und even furrzer back....Der Katzenjammer Kidz mebbe?

Yerz,
Dr.Von Tweedzrdz.
M.D.

(Mad Doctor)

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:49 PM

You raise some interesting points, harpgirl (and I agree with GUEST much of the time) -- but I respectfully disagree. It probably has to do with deep questions about what we think about the nature of art, rather than about the artist. However, in the meantime, I think it was Kant in his third Critique who points out that the artist is one who creates the next set of rules, the new boundaries, and that it is the nature of transformation that afterwards we see the integrity of what appeared before to be dis-integrity. That is what I meant by giving artists a "pass". A new form of self, a new form of control over dissipative material is being born.


Someone with no self control at all is not an artist, but a psychotic. Obviously, great artists have periods of darkness and need for therapy and some go psychotic, heaven knows, but when they are artists they have to have that resilience of psyche that allows them to simultaneously go to pieces and move the pieces into a new configuration. So the rest of us obviously have to be careful, which is what has spawned the notion that no one has any right to say anything to an artist ever. But eventually, the proof must be in the pudding. I would say, for example, that if you are going to write about Jews and Negros in the disgusting way Crumb does, you had better be the greatest writer who ever lived, because nothing short of that is going to be able to cope with the necessary artistic power to make such themes work artistically -- to redeem them, if you like. He has not risen to the level of artistic power necessary to make such themes work, to say the least. and therefore I believe him to be at the very least misguided, and I suspect out of control dealing with these themes. As a result, I would consider them evidence of pathology, not of art.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 04:59 PM

Jeri, well said, your bit about Crumb. I agree with you. Have just had a look after Rick mentioned this thread.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM

Vell, Vell, Meester Tveed. Und Meez Harpgurrl.....

Aww fuckit, writing in dialect is too hard when you can only do 19 words a minute in ENGLISH! Damn, I wish they'd let you use more than two index fingers to type with.

One problem I've had for years has been BEING hugely disappointed in my heroes when I've accidently (or otherwise) met them. I won't name some of them 'cause they're in the biz and were VERY important to me when I was an impressionable teenager, but I learned to separate the ART from the person. THEN I had to learn to separate PART of the person from the rest of the person.

My guess is that Andy K. would have been hugely creepy in person, but he still did an amazing Elvis bit.

Crumb (and I spent 2 hours going through his family's official site this morning).....Yumpin' Yimminy...dat's one STRANGE family!! If I did meet him, I'd LOVE to talk early recorded blues trivia, and perhaps pick some tunes....but other than in music, I'd probably have trouble looking him in the eye. As a technical artist, he may be the finest (and most versatile) I've ever seen. Bet a LOT of artists who'd be TRULY revolted by half his output would say that too.

Now GILBERT SHELTON!!?? Another hero from my teens. Ya gotta understand, I practically MEMORIZED Crumb, Shelton, Rodriguez, Kurtzman, (and virtually all the "Mad" artists)...it was more than just a casual hobby in between sock hops, homework and masturbation...these folks DID what I wanted to do! I wasn't really good enough (close, but no ceegar) and besides, when I got into banjo and guitar, I couldn't AFFORD the underground comics anymore....they didn't GIVE those suckers away ya know!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 05:20 PM

Let us not forget Wally Wood (my fave). yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 06:53 PM

OK then, if I must be honest, I too have to admit that the vulgarity of Crumb et all,... is disgusting. But then so is Victoria's Secret (and all that the copywrited name implies) 'lying' right there in the front room... The difference? for me, one is a spoof, and the other is dead serious. When a spoof is disgusting, it is so, as a reaction, and an earmark to an existing condition. Many Trad/Folk songs do just this.

It is not appropriate to 'judge' a satirical expression by the same standards one would use for classical art. Satire is never the expression of arcane beauty, but an immediate and timely critique of the 'status quo'. If it did not go against the common (prevalent) social presumption, the simple fact of the matter is,... there would be no 'call' for it in the first place, and no 'piece' would be written.

At the end of the day, my choice is inevitably art and music that presides in the realm of Beauty. I strongly believe that the quest for true beauty is our highest calling, and this would imply some large measure of the true appreciation of beauty... (whatever THAT is...) ttr

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: toadfrog
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 07:18 PM

Why does everybody assume that R.Crumb actually wrote this thing? Do you guys believe everything you see on the web??

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 07:40 PM

It's pretty unmistakably Crumb, and it was published a good few years ago. But its appearing on the net on the website, it seems pretty safe to assume, has nothing whatsoever to do with him. I suppose it's possible that it might have been doctored a bit, but essentially its Crumb.

A weird man, but no nazi or anything within a million miles of being a nazi.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 07:59 PM

I clicked on the link, saw which Crumb cartoon it was, checked to see what website it was, and left. One thing I feel pretty confident saying, is that while Crumb intended his work to provoke debate, he wouldn't be all that pleased at the way the discussion has gone. Rather, I think Crumb would prefer us discussing who it was who posted it, asking what they were doing at a white power music website, and asking why the attention of this forum was so drawn to discussing Crumb, instead the nazis who co-opted his work.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 08:19 PM

I'm sure there are some folks who would rather talk about bigotry and hate because they're experts on the subject. I think Crumb and his work are more interesting and certainly different from the accusations and reactions that pass for discussion around here sometimes. The discussion may not be going according to the original poster's plan, but that's nothing new around here.

Thomas, you wrote "If it did not go against the common (prevalent) social presumption, the simple fact of the matter is,... there would be no 'call' for it in the first place, and no 'piece' would be written."

No, I don't think so. The prevailing social presumption is what Crumb was writing about in that piece? I don't think so. Sure, satire can show the ugly side of popular opinion but it's also effective in ridiculing minority opinions, whether you think they're good or bad.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 08:47 PM

At the end of the day, my choice is inevitably art and music that presides in the realm of Beauty. I strongly believe that the quest for true beauty is our highest calling, and this would imply some large measure of the true appreciation of beauty... (whatever THAT is...) ttr.

Beauty is truth, truth beauty, -- that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. Keats

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 08:59 PM

Maybe it's just that it's late at night, but I couldn't make out what you were saying there Jeri. Or rather I could make out what you were saying, but I couldn't make out what you were meaning.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 09:22 PM

GUYZ!!!!!!!! Don't you know who METZGER IS!?!?!?!?!?!
Tom Metzger is a nazi who was sued by Morris Dees because the little creap weezle nazi rat bastard called for the killing of aliens in the US and after the "speach" (idiot's ravings) a young Asian man was murdered by the murdering idiots who listen to Metzger's idiocy. SO, what ever the story is about Crumb, I am not going to anything suggested my any idiot who names himself after that Nazi Rat Bastard.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 10:20 PM

And I'll bet there's absolutely no chance that "Metzger" is about as sincere as Crumb in his apparent bigotry?

If I understand what you were meaning McGrath, what I was meaning is that - maybe I just have no attention span but the discussions about isms all start sounding the same after a while.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 10:58 PM

Boy, oh, boy... I just knew there was serious meat to chew on here.

Some great posts up there.

Gilbert Shelton...yeah...I had a nagging feeling it was not Crumb that did the Freak Brothers. I find there is quite a difference in tone between Shelton and Crumb. Shelton is kinder to his characters. He's more whimsical. Crumb is downright vicious.

I guess that's why I liked the Freak Brothers, and didn't like most of Crumb's work.

I think it is a hell of a lot more interesting to discuss Crumb than to talk about neo-Nazis, because Crumb was a key player in the counterculture most of us grew up in or around. He affected us. Did neo-Nazis affect us? Barely at all, I'd say. Their craziness is so obvious to most people here that there's really not a hell of a lot to debate about regarding them, I don't think. But Crumb is an intriguing phenomenon.

I tend to go along with Peter...I think he's got serious psychological problems...but at the same time he does have some strong talents and abilities too, and an eye for scoring heavy satirical blows.

GUEST at 3:21 wrote: "the number of mediocre artists willing to drape themselves in dark irony usually results in becoming parodies of themselves. The reason for that, IMO, is because they do it as a glamor accessory, not as a serious attempt to manifest the divine on earth, which is what a true artist works at their whole life long, and rarely attain."

Absolutely. That is beautifully said. They do, indeed, do it as a glamour accessory...and they miss the higher purpose of life entirely. I don't know that Crumb does it that way, though...I think he's just out of control of his own vulgarity.

Rick - Now ya got me curious about those "heroes" you mention! The fact is, famous people generally have a hard time living up to their image...and trying to can alienate some people too and make them get weird. So...have you checked out Harold Hedd? (all-Canadian long-haired freak comic from Vancouver...had some marvelous early episodes, but deteriorated a bit in the later issues, I think). His cat was a beautiful example of the ne'er-do-well variety of hippy housecat.

And "Mad" artists? How about the glorious, incomparable Don Martin?

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 11:14 PM

MAD I can get into up until Bill Gaines died and it went to shit!

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 11:27 PM

When was that, Kat? I haven't read Mad in many years.

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Nov 02 - 11:51 PM

Oh, we know Metzger all right, and of course Zundel happily spread his poison throughout North America from the safety of his bunker in Toronto. Lawyers vied for the chance to defend him and become media celebrities as well.

I guess I'm a bit amazed that there's an actual DEFINITION of what is Art and what ain't. Lordy I wouldn't even presume to say what's valid, without that 'IMO' thing. My views and feelings on Crumb, music, politics, or Andy Kauffman's underwear are personal, often idiosyncratic, rarely have anything other than my own probably faulty observation to back them up, and always are stated under my own name, just in case anybody wants to have a good argument. Just one more PERSONAL opinion before I move on to something else.... Peter, you said:

" He has not risen to the level of artistic power necessary to make such themes work, to say the least".

You see, since I first read his work (in the sixties) I've been exposed to hundreds (more probably, thousands) of cartoonists, many on the edge, many using pornography, and quite a few whom I found simply offensive or worse...boring. I'd hardly even get into a discussion on most of them, let alone a debate, where I couldn't be sure whether the debators actually KNEW the artist in question, or had just seen the odd piece of his work. Ya see, after almost forty years, I think Crumb HAS "risen to the level of artistic power neccessary to make such themes work". To say the least.

Wally Wood, Don Martin.....I'm sure those of us of a 'certain age' could go on ad infinitum.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST,Bucky Edgett
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 12:28 AM

Here's the problem with Robert Crumb. He's an artist who is deeply disturbed by the ugliness of modern culture. He uses the common debating technique of the reductio ad absurdum to make his satirical arguments. His criticisms are perfectly correct, and he's been willing to dig into the worst cesspits Whiteman has built. But, sadly, he has no solutions to offer. Just criticism. Brilliant criticism, to my mind, but it ends there. Maybe it's all the acid he used to eat; burned out the ol' creative compassion circuits? Or maybe he's just as nutty as the rest of his family.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: DougR
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 01:21 AM

I saw the documentary about Crumb, Peg. I, too thought it was excellent but it depicted a family about as disfunctional as one could imagine. Still, it was a good film.

I still think the theme of the cartoons in this thread are despictable though. I would feel it was the same if it attacked any minority group.

DougR

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 09:43 AM

I agree that Crumb has shown artistry, Rick, in the Charlie Patton piece, and in any number of fine cartoons R. Crumb did (I am a fan). As you yourself said, they are beautifully drawn, and they have the nervous, haunted, messed up energy that resonates with the chosen theme. There is something about his obsessions that works in a story about juke joints, etc. Not about the other stuff. None of it is in the realm of the Charlie Patton story, or, in another, more relevant league, say, MAUS.

I think we have gone too far away through fear of making artistic judgments, as if such a thing were impossible. I see no reason why one cannot make artistic judgements, and articulate why one thinks an artist has been able to cope better with some issues than others. Anyone with some basic knowledge of art who looks at Picassos of 1906 can see that something is happening, but has not quite worked, the artist is struggling, and can compare them with Picassos of 1907 and say, oh I see, that was the solution. The difficulty is finding a language to express this -- that is why there are critics (good critics) -- and to get other people to agree in an uncoerced way (teaching is the uncoerced rearrangement of desires). You are constantly making excellent critical and artistic judgements every day, trying (for example) to get people to listen to works of music that on the surface appear to be not very interesting, and yet something important and interesting is going on. Every time you say "here, listen to this," you are selecting, and hoping, that the listener, or student, will make a similar judgement.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 09:54 AM

Rick Fielding: Zundel happily spread his poison throughout North America from the safety of his bunker in Toronto. Lawyers vied for the chance to defend him and become media celebrities as well.

Rick,

That's just not true. There were no lawyers vying for the chance to defend Zundel. Zundel's lawyer is, and has always been, Doug Christie. Christie is a fellow neo-Nazi whose entire practice is devoted to the defence of scum like Zundel and himself.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 10:00 AM

To me, a refusal to use critical judgment shows a contempt for art and artist alike. Without their critical faculties, an artist has no way of determining what works, what doesn't, where the impulse is leading the artist and how to get there, etc.

Why this fear of critical judgment, of astute awareness of the artistic process? And this better not be about being "nice"...

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 10:21 AM

The fear, naturally enough, is of misjudgement, which, given art history, is pretty real. There is always the potential for turning specific judgements into a set of rules to be applied to the next case. This has often poisoned the relationship between assessing someone's assessable skills and making assessments about new forms of creativity operating according to new rules.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 10:31 AM

I agree misjudgment is a reality any artist faces. But it is also a reality each of us faces in life on a daily basis, regardless of what we do.

On one hand, some artists would like nothing more than to be misjudged when it is THEIR work which then becomes the standard to which the next case will be compared. On the other, if their work is damned by comparison (the much more likely scenario), they fear being made irrelevant. But if an artist is concerning themselves with these realities before and/or during the process of creation, they likely won't be very successful anyway. Any creative process requires working with blinders on to a certain extent. Otherwise, we never overcome the fear of what others will think about our work, or about us. Creating for the audience, or for the critics, is done out of a tremendous insecurity about trusting one's own artistic judgment. An artist has to be first be willing to say to themselves, audience and critics be damned, this is how this work MUST be done.

But after the fact, the critical feedback becomes an essential part of the creative process, because it makes the artist, if they are open to it, that much better at what they do. Of course, part of the process is to learn to sort wheat from chaff when it comes to criticism, which is why I think mentorship of artists is so important. With a seasoned mentor, they can help an artist sort the wheat from chaff in ways that supports and nurtures and encourages the work. I'm always very suspicious of artists who say they never read their own reviews, or what the critics say about them. In many cases, it is painfully obvious that the artist SHOULD be listening to the criticism, but aren't.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 10:59 AM

A Guest said: "That's just not true. There were no lawyers vying for the chance to defend Zundel. Zundel's
lawyer is, and has always been, Doug Christie. Christie is a fellow neo-Nazi whose entire
practice is devoted to the defence of scum like Zundel and himself."

Me again. My snarky comment about lawyers came after watching a program on TVO, where the subject up for discussion was Zundel, Christie, and how taking a prominent case on, no matter how odious the client, can skyrocket a Lawyer's profile.

Once again, I know full well who Christie is, who his other clients are,.....and jeez.....I've just fallen into the Thread starter's trap, haven't I?

Back to Crumb.....I think his LIFE'S WORK shows that he's an equal opportunity pen-and-ink assassin, with more skills than ANY of his contemporaries. There is not ONE group of people who've been depicted with nobility throughout his comic career...but he saves his nastiest shots for himself....has done right from the get-go. Have you SEEN how he sees HIMSELF over the years? be honest now.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 12:20 PM

Guest 10:31...Though critics may affect the partiality prone populus with bread and butter limiting liaisons, the long haul of traditional correctness transcends the temporallity of influence peddlers and the like... Mentors are often subconsciously chosen, and their attributes are selectively adopted... Only fools adopt another's entire personal artistic scenario... ttr (being far too headdy and distracting..:^)

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 12:58 PM

Yeah, Rick, I've seen how Crumb depicts himself. I think he sees himself sort of the way I see him...only maybe he thinks that's the only way it CAN be, so it's okay. I don't.

As Buckey E. said: " But, sadly, he has no solutions to offer. Just criticism."

That's the problem. He's a profound cynic about humanity, life, and himself. I consider that to be a deep form of psychological illness. It doesn't lead anywhere that I want to go.

Now here's another thing, though... What attracts us to an artist's work in the first place? I believe that what it usually is, is this: we see ourselves in that work. It reveals us. That's what drew people to Dylan...he said what they wanted to say, but hadn't quite succeeding in articulating yet. They saw themselves, and were profoundly moved.

I don't see myself in Crumb's work very much at all. Mostly I see the antithesis to myself, I see what I absolutely DON'T believe in or identify with, what is the denial of all I believe in.

I believe that Life is beautiful, and has a divine purpose. I believe that the human soul is noble and has a divine purpose. I believe that the negative behaviours we often see are not the essential facts of life, but serve to simply wake us up and reinforce our courage in defending Life, which is beautiful, noble, constructive, and brilliantly conceived for the most wonderful purposes.

Crumb's message is one of deterioration, corruption, defeatism, and death...

I know that message when I see it, and I don't enjoy dwelling on it for longer than is necessary to recognize it for what it is...nihilism.

As was pointed out, he offers criticism, but no solutions. What good is that?

Sounds like Dylan's "Wicked Messenger" to me...

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 01:07 PM

I just can't bring myself to agree that only the beautiful is divine. Just can't do it. Seems like deep cynicism to me.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 01:34 PM

I get the feeling that for Crumb the only place he feels comfortable with "beauty" is in a musical context.

His draughtsmanship is superb, especially on the rare occasions he lets his guard down and draws something or someone for itself rather than as some of comment.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 02:48 PM

I don't think Picasso's Guernica has anything of beauty in it with its images of death, dismemberment and the disemboweling of a horse. I think one instantly recognises that Picasso was trying to portray the ugliness of war. Crumb portrays the ugliness in people in a way which doesn't allow us to distance ourselves. He's asking us to join his vision, to agree with him, and hell no - most of us react pretty strongly to that.

None of us would think Crumb's work was ugly unless we knew beauty and none of us would feel that gut level disgust if we didn't strongly disagree with the apparent message. It seems like it's the closest anyone can come to creating performance art with unchanging visual images.

And I still don't like it. I never cared much for performance art either because it was about control and manipulation and the artist saying "Look, I'm so much wiser than you. Let me grace you puny mortals with my work and show you truth." I think the sense that someone trying to manipulate my feelings in a clumsy, ham-handed fashion is what turns me off more than anything else.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 04:00 PM

Ah, GUEST, but I didn't say that only the beautiful is divine. I say it's ALL divine. And this has been a fascinating discussion.

I get it now. Crumb's art repulses me (usually), and in doing so it alerts me to something quite important. It helps make me more aware of what I deeply love in life, by presenting the negation of what I deeply love.

Thus Crumb, whether or not he believes in the Divine, is doing the work of the Divine (as is everyone else, consciously or unconsciously). Make that "mostly unconsciously".

Where I went wrong was in judging him for it. I might better have just observed it dispassionately, taken note of how it made me feel, and then realized what it was telling me.

By showing me what I do NOT wish to be, and am not, Crumb is telling me a great deal about what I DO wish to be, and what I am.

Very neat.

Mr. Crumb, I still do not feel much attracted to your work (to say the least), but you will no longer be judged by me for doing it that way. Without bad taste, how would we know what good taste was? Without creating ugliness, how would we know beauty? (in Nature, most things ARE beautiful)

Feel free to continue assaulting my sensibilites, Mr. Crumb! :-)

When you no longer upset me...which is about where I stand on it now...I will have mastered the lesson pretty well.

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 04:35 PM

Please stop assaulting anyone's sensibilities this way, Mr. Crumb. There are better ways to the divine than this. I do not need to find joy by first beating my head against a brick wall because it is so wonderful when I stop.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 04:50 PM

Have you ever tried standing behind a jackass and lecturing it on nonviolence and personal hygeine, Peter? Did it work? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM

Another cartoonist from the same period who took a very different approach to Crumb, but managed very often to cut right through to the truth, was R.Cobb.

I remember when I worked on Peace News from 68 to 72, we used to find time after time that the best way to illustrate an editorial or an article was to use a Cobb cartoon, lifted from some American underground paper, or maybe from Liberation News Service.

This thread set me thinking about him, so I checked with Google. Lots of sites came up with people referring to some Cobb cartoon that had stuck in their mind, and using it as a way of making a point about some issue, but I couldn't find more than a couple of the actual cartoons, and nothing about Cobb himself. Anyone know what happened to him?

Hee is one Cobb cartoon I found, his take on some aspects of the Gun Culture and Family Values in America. Very economical, very memorable - that was his way of doing it.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 05:46 PM

Yep, that's Fortress America...

FEAR and JUDGEMENT.

- LH

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 06:34 PM

I just had another search around, and found that Ron Cobb went to ,live in Austraia, and published several collections of cartoons. Which are, naturally, out of print.

And he had input to Star Wars and ET and lots of stuff like that. Which is good - but it's a shame and a scandal the cartoons aren't readily available. Here is a page with some more information.

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 07:32 PM

Don't forget, people, that Robert Crumb is one of US - a MUSICIAN. A member of the Cheap Suit Serenaders, a good old time string band. Read about his musical stuff here: Cheap Suit Serenaders
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 07:51 PM

You can get to hear them

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 07:53 PM

Sorry!!! You can get to here them Here
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: harpgirl
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 07:53 PM

...that's right Ray and he moved to France because he hates American culture! Now what to make of that!

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: BanjoRay
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 07:55 PM

He thinks about American Culture what the rest of the world thinks --- he loves bits and hates bits.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:28 PM

Now this is only relevant to people who can get the digital TV channel BBC Four - but on Tuesday 26th from 9pm to 11pm they'll be showing that film about Crumb. Fascinating, and some good music. And maybe it answers some of the questions raised in this thread. (And adds a few more in the process.)

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 07:55 PM

Hi McGrath...nahhh it doesn't answer any questions, but it's a hell of a fascinating film. The guy is brilliant, the finest cartoon illustrator of his time, and sees EVERYONE around him (and especially himself) as completely hypocritical. His devotion to early recorded blues music is just another thing that makes him quite the outsider.

Other than that, he's just yer average guy, ha ha!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: New cartoon from R. Crumb
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:43 PM

Well, it's almost impossible to find a human being who hasn't sometimes been hypocritical...but it's a good idea to take note of their strengths and their virtues as well. A lot of people measure up pretty well when one does this.

Let's say someone was already perfect... What would they do then? Sounds like a pretty dull story to me.

- LH