Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

My Man, Bobert:

I'm with you (or is it yez?) Bobert. I have never had the desire to sing in a choir in my life, but I sure love singing in the Men's Chorus. The fact that almost none of us are trained makes it all the more interesting. I sing the the baritone or (barely-tone) section in the Men's Chorus and there are times when I am the only one singing the baritone harmony (if Frankie's there, we're often the only two.) Half the guys sing the melody (although they swear they can't sing tenor) and others just kinda improvise as they go along. The interesting thing is, as long as they aren't singing something discordant, they blend in fine. We have the most complicated harmonies of all because there are so many variations. But, it works, and there is a richness and power that is at least different than it would be if we all sang it "right." On top of that, our Director doesn't write the harmonies down, and sometimes he'll even change them as the practice goes along. So, we pick what we like, half the time. I'm sure we'd drive a trained singer absolutely crazy!

Every once in a while someone will join the Men's Chorus who enunciates with great precision and has a very pronounced vibrato.
No one in the Men's Chorus sings with a vibratto, so they sound kinda silly, hung out to dry. They usually don't stay long. We have guys in the bass section that couldn't approximate a melody at gunpoint, but they're always there, and I'm glad that they are. (And that they don't sing real loud.)

If you or any other Catters make it up here (or over here) to Connecticut and are here on Sunday, I'll give you a taste of shoot from the hip singing, Bobert. You would fit right in... just stand next to Joe..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Socorro
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM

I'm right there with you guys. I used to sing with a group of friends, one of whom is an old-time Texas black gospel singer,Leo. He knows nothing of musical language (keys & that sort of folderol), but what a singer!
The purpose of our group was to (try to)sing in the black gospel style, but our main piano player (classically-trained piano teacher) just could not get it.
She tried to assign us all fixed "parts", to which we would "stick" & sing the same way each time (so that she could learn one accompaniment, & play it the same each time).
She HAD to write everything down - of course then she expected Leo to sing the same way next time, which he never did.
It was sorta funny, how he was always trying to get her to throw away her papers, but she just couldn't.
Her style clashed horribly with Leo's, & her rhythm didn't even approximate his - & she couldn't hear it.

The term Leo always used for singing that sounds too straight was "choir". If we heard that word, we knew we were in trouble.

What an eye-opener for me. I know that all classically-trained musicians don't become crippled in this way, but her ear seemed to have gotten lost somewhere.

Jerry, thanks for your explanation of how black church singing works. I can show it to my cousin, who didn't believe me, that the accompanists had to work under those conditions (he said to me - "that's just not how music works!") - Me, I think it's absolutely inspiring, & it's my own goal to be able to play that way. Like you, i have no interest in singing in a choir, the same way every time. It's so exhilarating to feel the spirit & listen/respond to the subltle cues of those around you at the same time. Praise God.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Night Owl
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:13 PM

Thanks for this thread Jerry. I missed reading it in Nov.
Sure wish you would keep talking...

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:32 PM

A GRAND THREAD.   THAT'S MY MAN, JERRY !!!!

Art
(Jerry, I've had some trouble with e-mail. Did you get my last one I sent back to you?)

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:06 AM

Wow! I missed it, too. PLease do keep posting, Jerry, this is fantastic. Thanks very much,

kat

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 02:04 AM

Nice to see the new postings.... I added some comments because someone said that they'd missed this thread and couldn't find it.

Many years ago, I did a gospel album, which I never released. There were three or four songs where I really wanted a quartet sound, but didn't know anyone in the area who could sing the bass parts. I was going to a Lutheran Church at the time, so I asked someone I knew who sang bass in the choir if he would record the bass parts for me. He asked for the sheet music to the songs, and I told him that there wasn't any. He said he couldn't sing without sheet music. A strange form of laryngitis. I told him that I could give him a tape of the song, with me singing the bass part, and that I could even put it on a separate channel, so he could sing along with me and learn it that way. That was no help to him. He said he couldn't sing it if he didn't have sheet music for it. The bass harmony is by nature, simple. But, there was no way of convincing him to even try. Frustrated, I asked a second bass singer in the choir, and got the same response. I suppose that I shouldn't have been surprised. I've met people who play the piano, who've played piano all of their lives and when I've asked them to play something for me, with a piano standing there next to us they said, "I can t play without sheet music."

Years ago, I used to teach banjo. Once I had taught the basics of picking styles, I'd try to get my students to tackle a song without the tablature. I'd give them a simple song, just using them what I'd already taught them, and give them a tape of myself doing the song slowed down, and then at a regular speed. That day at their lesson, I'd go through the song several times, breaking it down for them, and encouraging them to play along and ask questions. The next week, they'd show up, not having learned the song, complaining that they couldn't play it unless I gave them tablature for it. When I realized that I was creating a monster... someone who "couldn't play" unless they had tablature, I did everything I could to encourage them to break away from their dependency on having everything written out "the right way." Without exception, they just quit taking lessons.

As a folk singer, music to me is a personal expression. Learning from books, or taking lessons, or even learning songs from sheet music is a way to learn. Sheet music or tablature is a tool, not a prison. I went to hear the Glen Miller orchestra once (at the local mall) and found it fascinating. Musicians arrived, one at a time and were handed their sheet music. When everyone was there, they sat down (never having played the arrangements or played together before) and did a passable version of Miller's big hits. They didn't sound bad... they could sight read well enough to play together with no rehearsal. I was very impressed by that, and headed for the nearest exit as fast as my feet could carry me. They got the notes "right" but missed the song.

One of the reasons why I love gospel music so much is the reason why I love folk music so much... it comes out of the heart, not off a sheet of paper.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 02:15 AM

And... Hi, Art: I got your last e-mail. It was the last e-mail I received and will be that, until I receive the next one.

Does that answer your question?

Kinda like giving directions and saying, "Turn right five miles before you get to the bridge." :-)

I'll e-mail you, just to see...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: GUEST,Mary V...in wisconsin.....
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 07:22 AM

THANKS JERRY !!! AND ALL THE OTHERS....

THIS DISCUSSION IS GREAT !!!!
THANKS SO MUCH FOR LETTING ME KNOW.
WHEN WE TRAVEL DOWN SOUTH...
I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOU GUYS SING...
MARY IN WISCONSIN .....4 BELOW ZERO .....
GOOD MUSIC IS THAT ONLY THING
KEEPING US WARM AROUND HERE...

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wilco
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM

Jerry: I didn't really know what you were talking about with "sheet music." I assumed that it was some unusual mispronunciation for a musical style that you didn't like. But, I saw some last week. There were literally hundreds of little black dots and flags and stuff on parallel railroad tracks. Not very endearing.
    Seriuosly, I think that its remarkable that someone can re-create
a piece of muisc from paper, when there is no emotional content on the page. I can't read a dot of music.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 07:17 PM

Wilco: It never made sense to me to learn to read sheet music because just about all of the music I want to sing doesn't have accompaying sheet music. Find me the sheet music to Blues In The Bottle or Peddle Your Blues Away and I'll eat it (no fair using google...)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:07 PM

I thought I'd refresh this for a couple of days, as I'll be leading this workshop at the NOMAD Festival on Saturday, November 15 at 8 p.m.
The NOMAD Festival is going to be held this year in New Havem, CT. I'll be doing the workshop with my quartet, The Gospel Messengers and fellow mudcatters Jim and Cindy Bean and special guest, Rich Gallagher. Other mudcatters I notice on the workshop schedule are Animaterra, who will be doing Songs And Chants Of The World's Traditions, and the inimitable Kendall H. Morris and our own Sandwell T. Paton on Hobo Songs... all on Saturday night.

SHould be a lot of fun..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: dwditty
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 02:54 PM

Thanks, Jerry, for bringing this thread back.

dw
aka Rich Gallagher

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 03:52 PM

Jerry, I just got lost in this thread and haven't made it all the way through yet... Your workshop is right after us (ShoreGrass) in the chorus room at NOMAD, and I'm looking forward to being there to hear you.

ShoreGrass actually does quite a lot of gospel, bluegrass-style. (That was one of the programs I've offered to do at NOMAD in the past, but they chose the Civil War and bluegrass programs instead). I'm sure we are not experts at anything, but we do love to do gospel songs. The ones we do tend to be Stanley Brothers and Carter Family, although we have "put the grass to" several hymns and even a few contemporary songs. And I've written a couple myself.

Yesterday in church Frank and I and a friend (not in ShoreGrass) did Jordan, Take Me In Your Lifeboat, I'm Using My Bible for a Road Map, Hold Fast to the Right, Peace Like a River and Jesus Loves Me. I don't know which are black, white, southern, bluegrass, praise, whatever. We just do them. There were actually a few feet that became unglued to the floor and many smiles going out the door afterwards, and comments like "I wish we could hear more of THAT kind of music!"

See you in November in New Haven.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: bbc
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 09:56 PM

Hope to see you there for the 3rd time, Jerry!

best always,

Barbara

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 10:10 PM

Maybe I need a two hour workshop, Barbara! We just touch the surface in an hour, and the Gospel Messengers love bluegrass... Can't tear them away from bluegrass when they hear it at a folk festival. Joe and Frankie grew up on the Grand Ole Opry. Looks like we need a two hour gospel jam..

Look forward to hearing y'all in November..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: bbc
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 05:42 PM

Two hours would be nice, Jerry. Any chance of that?

bbc

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 05:59 PM

Maybe next year, bbc... the schedule is all set for this year...

If I can get Shore Grass, Rich Gallagher, the Beans and the Messengers together, I'll try to get two workshops consecutively, or a two hour gospel "jam." Sounds like an enormous amount of fun. I'm sorry you didn't know about the now-defunct Adirondack Folk Gospel Festival I was a part of... three days of every kind of gospel you could imagine... Janette Carter, the Moving Star Hall Singers, Walt Michaels, Rev. Dan Smith, and on and on...

Maybe someday we'll find a way to pull everyone together for a day..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Burke
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 06:07 PM

Adirondack Folk Gospel Festival

I went to that, once. I didn't hear anything about it again & don't know how I heard about it the first time. It was fun.

How long did it last? When did it die?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:13 PM

The Adirondack Folk Gospel Festival lasted six years, I think... I was involved the last three as a performer and board member. It was a wonderful festival, but never quite captured an audience. I think that a lot of church folks were sceptical of folkies, and some folkies might have been concerned that it would be too "religious." A lot of Atheists sing gospel and love the songs for their energy and good choruses, and sing them in the same way that they'd sing a sea chanty. It might have sounded a little too much like a tent revival for people who are more private in their worship. I was a little sceptical, myself the first year that I was booked, because I didn't consider myself a gospel singer. But, I thought people mixed very comfortably together, whatever their faith, and I didn't find anyone
pushy.

The festival was started and headed by Field Horne. I think he just got tired of trying to make it work. An unfortunate side effect that's often suffered in the world of folk festivals..

It was a wonderful festival, though.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 07:29 PM

I LOVE the idea of a 2-hour gospel jam! Maybe a round-robin where we could keep going around giving each group/style a song, one after the other. That would (in my opinion) make a wonderful session at NOMAD, and it would also be a great event elsewhere, such as a church fundraiser or a First Night or a festival or whatever...

Whenever we go to a bluegrass festival (9 or 10 this past season) we always end up on Sunday morning with our own gospel set at the campsite. For those joining the jam who don't do gospel, we ask for something inspirational. Some of our best jams have been at that good-bye gospel set at the end of each festival.

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 10:03 PM

We're ready..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:02 PM

Well, I have offered my home in the past to do just what's described here. Offer's still open. We "do" a few of these ourselves. :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:03 AM

Oh yeah, one more thing:

These days, my quartet is working on two songs we've already "learned" but have had trouble with. The problem in both cases is that on the original recording, the lead singer adds extra beats on a line. This is fairly common in "live" singing that I hear, where the singer just gets into the feel of the line and holds it out extra beats (or throws in an aside.) In both of the songs we're working on, the lead singer sings a line with more words in it than you can easily keep within the beat of the song, unless you sing them like a speed reader. If it's just a lead singer and an accompanist, the accompanist can vamp a few extra beats and let the lead singer take whatever extra time that he or she feels to express the meaning of the song. When you're singing harmony, and the lead decides to sing one line longer than the number of beats the harmony singers are doing, everyone trips all over everyone else. This seems to be a quality of black gospel more than any other type of singing that I'm familiar with.

We're trying to resolve the problem by, in one case, shortning the line with the extra beats so that it fits with the harmonies, and in the other case where it's just my guitar backing the lead, my trying to "vamp" until the lead gets around to finishing the line.

Sometimes, I envy that chunka chunka of Maybelle Carter's guitar..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:06 PM

Jerry,
I've read through this thread with great interest and also want to thank you for bringing it back again.

I wanted to share a little bit now and more later..

I was raised in a Black Baptist church in New Jersey. Union Baptist Temple had [and still has] a congregation that for the most part was too 'saditty' to get happy.

When I was growing up [in the 1950s-mid 1960s] there were a number of church choirs that were divided by age and there was also a men's choir..During that time there was a children's choir, a Gospel Choir [made up of older women and men[, a young adult choir, called the 'Spiral Chorus', that was my mother's choir, a men's choir, and a mass choir. The Spiral Chorus sung the more innovative, uptempo gospel songs. In contrast, notwithstanding their name, the Gospel Choir sung anthems and hymns and slower gospel numbers. Besides all this our pastor, Rev. Matthew E. Neil was a singer preacher with a wonderful voice..

The choirs would rotate Sundays..I always preferred the Sundays when the Spiral Chorus sang..

Our chruch organist was a classically trained musician who eventually worked for the school system as a pianist. Our church read music but [and] was a much more down home type musician..In later years I understood that there had been some tug of war between which style of music and accompaniment was best..Yet it seemed to me that they complimented each other well. As one might expect from their musical backgrounds, Mrs. Burke, the classically trained organist was the director of the more conventional Gospel choir, and Mrs Winstead the down home pianist was the director of the Spiral Chorus.

At that time we had no drums or guitars, saxophone or any other musical istruments in our church save the tamborine that was sometimes was used by the Spiral chorus. I also vaguely recall that some individual church members would sometimes bring their own tamborine to church, but this was very rare.

Of course times have changed and that church now has a drummer and a guitar player [but still no saxophone and usually no tamborines]
Clapping off beat is rare in that church now-though I recall that when I was young.

Sorry I have to leave so abruptly. I will share more in another post...


Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:02 PM

Thanks for your perspective, Azizi:

I got some complaints a couple of Sundays ago for clapping offbeat. I like the polyrythmic clapping, and so does my friend Frankie. But, it's generally frowned upon. That doesn't stop Frankie and me from doing it, of course.

In the last year, the church formed a "band" and now they accompany the Men's Chorus (which up until then did everything with just a piano accompaniment (or a capella.)

Modern Times, Mon!

I still the old stuff..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 03:59 PM

Rather than continue a description of music in my childhood/youth Black Baptist New Jersey church and church music nowadays, I'd like to share this memory:

When I was in high school, my best girlfriend Francine and I, having adventurous natures, got up our nerves and decided to integrate that school's Bible club. It took some nerve for us to do so because although our large school [with 3,000 students] was made up of just about 50% Black students and 50 % White students, the Bible club had never had any Black members.

Outside of classroom interactions, this was our [and probably those students] first attempt at intercultural interactions. Perhaps because we were so young-it didn't go well at all. We were definitely not comfortable there, and I don't believe that the other students were comfortable with us..As I recall, it was almost as if these students doubted that we were Christian, as they constantly grilled us about our religious beliefs. I wonder where was the teacher who was responsible for that group, and why didn't he or she help this process along..but that's another story....

And if the students asking us questions about what kind of Christian we were wasn't bad enough, the music that those students sang made the experience worse for us..Though some of the titles & words of the songs were familiar to us, the WAY they sang the songs were not..I couldn't 'get into' the songs-they seemed somehow 'dryer', slower, less alive in some way I couldn't understand. In essence, it seemed to mehow with less soul..

Well, Francine and I didn't remain in that club, but we went to a couple of White church sessions afterwards. These brief furays into the White religous world confirmed for me that there was something different about Black and White church music. Many years later, I think it's not the text of the music that makes the difference as much as it is the performance of that text.

I think that we {African Americans} prefer percussive music, and that we make the music our own [put our own flava in the mix] rather than stritly adhering to the words. Even in my middle class church, members of the congregation did and still do sing along with the choir if they want to, and/or add interjections like 'Amens' and 'Yes, Lords'. Some people stay seated and clap along [even though few now will do the off beat clapping that is decidedly African]. Other people will stand up and clap along [a sign that the music has 'moved' them so much that they can't stay seated.] Sometimes people seated or standing will raise their right hand or both hands to the sky as as sign that they are moved by the music..

Also, usually the choir doesn't stand still but moves with the music sometimes clapping sometimes not...I didn't see this in the White Baptist churches that I attended in my youth though this worshop style is certainly done in the few White and mixed Black/White Pentacostal church services that I have attended.

To provide some sense of common past and present Black church experiences, I would like to share one excerpt from Samuel A. Floyd Jr's "The Power of Black Music, Interpreting Its History From African To The United States" that describes the ways that Black people respond to both religious and secular music:

"Essentially and most fundamentally, the African-American musical experience is both self-criticising and self-validating. As such experiences unfold, for example, listeners show approval, disapproval, or puzzlement with vocal and physical responses to, and interaction with, events as they occur. African Americans serve critical notice on inferior music making either by withholding their participation or, as in the case of New York's tough Apollo Theatre in the 1940s and 1950s, by addressing their cricism directly to the performers on stage. The culturally attuned are aware when the notes and the rhythms do not fit the context ans when the idiomatic orientation is wrong; they know when an ace is a Signifyin{g} one, when it is effective, and when it is not. Positive responses range from the more or less vigorous comments and declamations of "Oh yeah". "Cook", "Preach", "Uhn-huhn", and other such exhortings, to the approving nods, shakes of the head, finger snapping, shoulder hitchings, and hop switchings of a knwoledgable and sensitive audience, thus calidating the cultural and aestheti value of
Signifyin[g] acts. Their absence generally represents the withholding of approval, revealing 'confusion', 'annoyance', 'boredom', and 'indifference" {Murray, 1973, 87}.
****

Azizi

{in recognition that this post and my preceding one may not directly speak to the subject of this thread, but as a means of sharing with any readers who are interested my thoughts/remembrances of one worship style and certainly not the only valid worship style.}

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 08:06 PM

"Off-beat clapping"?
Any further thoughts/ explanation (other than clapping on the off beat)?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:02 PM

I'll let Azizi take this one if she would. On some of the really early recorded black gospel field recordings, you can hear polyrhythms. I don't know anything, really, about the traditions. When my wife and I were in Ghana and went to church there, the music was explosive, and everyone was involved, dancing and clapping and it was a s complex as it was natural.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:03 PM

Margret RoadKnight, as I'm not a musician, even to partially answer your question I'm going to have to largely rely on quotes.

"Alan Lomax {1975}.. found that across black Africa there exist
an extraordinary homogenity of African song style ..When most Africans sing they are non-tense, vocally; quite repetitious, texually; rather slurred in enunciation;,lacking in embellishment and free rhythm; low on exclusive leadership; high on antiphony; chorally; especially high in overlappping antiphony; high on one-phrase melodies; on litany form;very cohesive, toanlly and rhythmically in chorus; high on choral integration or part-singin; high on relaxed vocalizing; and highest on polyrthymic [or hot]accompaniments....

Lomax's survey shows that prominent in African culture is
the use of bodily polyrhythm, in which the trunk and the pelvis of teh dancer and teh hands and sticks of the drummer steadily maintain two seperate and conflicting meters. The non-complex structure of text and tune and the mult-leveled structure of Pygmy-Negro performance style afford added incentives for group participation, opening the door for anyone to make a contrastive and complementary personal contribution to the whole sound..
[Alan Lomax, Africanisms in New World music : in The Haitain Potential, New York; Teachers College Press]quoted in Samuel A. Floyd, Jr's "The Power of Black Music", 27

end of quote

It is this 'steadily maintaining of two seperate and conflicting meters' and the'contrastive and complementary' handclapping on the off-beat while some are clapping on beat that Jerry and I are referring to.

Also, Olly Wilson has observed in African music what he calls a 'heterogeneous sound idea' that results from 'the timbral mosaic created by the interaction between lead voice, chorus, rattle, metallic gong, hand clapping, various wind or string instruments, and drums, which exist in greater and lesser degree in almos all ensemble music. He goes on to say that the hetergeneous sound ideal is reflected in vocal music as well."
[quoted in Samuel A. Floyd, Jr's "The Power of Black Music", 28,29]

end of quote..

I've read that there is a preference in African and African descent vocal and isntrumental music for 'dirty' sounds [as opposed to 'pure'/'clean' sounds]..as reflected vocally in gritty, gravelly, hoarse voices and the addition of groans; moans,interjetions, beads added to the iron tong on finger pianos to added a buzz like sound, metal shanka shankas on djembe drums etc.

In addition see this quote from Kebede, 1982 that is cited in Floyd's "The Power of Black Music" [p.31-32}..traditional Afrian music made use, variously, of a musical vocabulary that included melodic monophony, heterophony, and polyphony; parallel thirds, 'tongue clicks, suction stops, explosive endings, throaty gurgles; ovrlaping call-and-response events; and "hand-clapping with off-beat syncopation".

end of quote

Hopefully, some musicians can 'break this down' for you..
'I know that I know' but I'm not sure that I have adequately explained off beat clapping.

Best wishes,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:37 PM

Why Jerry, you shouldn't have ;O))

Okay, as you can see I tried to explain clapping on the off-beat even before I read your post.

But I would still welcome some musicians comments.

BTW, it's not something I recall being taught, though i don't want to say it comes naturally. Maybe I do it because I was around alot of people who clapped that way [adding to the on bat clapping to make that contrasting sound..] But it's not as common in some Black middle class churches as it used to be..though I'm sure that's its still a going strong in santified, COGIC [Church of God In Christ churches..

As an aside, about 9 years or so ago-when I was reading about the "Shout" tradition in African American Southern slave cultures-I attended a COGIC?? {or holiness, or non-demoninational santified Black church service. The music was SO improvisation, call & response, percussive, dynamic, moving, down-home REAL that I thought myself "this is what it must have been like to attend services in the slave spirit houses". True there were no counterclockwise circle of people moving in a true Shout formation, but it certainly had the FEEL and the SPIRIT of what I imagine a shout or a worship service back then to be {and this is a compliment-and by no means a put-down]..

In that service individual members of the congregation would begin a song, seated or standing; teh drummer [a very talented elementary schoola ge boy, and the adult male electric guitarist would very quickly add accompaniment, and the congregation would join in the singing.. eventually most people would stand, and they would do the off beat and on beat handclaps, and would raise on or both arms to ask for God's blessing, or to express their submission to God..
The song might seem like it was over, but the pianist could continue it or the singers...and sometimes the song flowed into a prayer or some people 'speaking in tongues' or people getting up to 'testify' [give personal testimonies about what good things God had done for them or their family members]..

And while all this was going on, I know that I was approaching this worship service as a visitor from another culture-for that's who I was.. Though they were African American and I am too, I had had little experience with that kind of public emoting..

While I loved [love]the singing and music, I knew that-maybe because of my upbringing- my much more restrained, private personality would probably never be fully comfortable worshipping this way..

I want the still small voice meditation, the intellectual kind of sermon, and the sanctified music and singing..And that's hard to find in one church...


Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:38 PM

Thaks, Azizi: I just know how it feels. And sounds. Too bad it seems to be less and less encouraged in black church music...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 07:53 PM

(Re: "off-beat clapping":)
Many thanks, Azizi, and Jerry.
Sounds like "The Power of Black Music" should be on my next book shopping list!

I do know what you're expounding/expanding on (I just wasn't sure of the terminology/ definition).

Despite being an agnostic white Australian I'm drawn, like many around the world, to Aframerican (a great term coined by Roland Hayes, the first Black to play Carnegie Hall) religious music..... I was even "adopted' by the touring BLACK NATIVITY company in the mid-'60s, and have recorded with the GMWA Mass Choirs in N'Awlins in '99 & 2000.

Anyway, I now run "Make a Joyful Noise" workshops on Black Gospel Singing which include a segment on off-beat clapping (or tambourine) 'against' on-beat rocking/stepping with a call & response song ..... certainly not natural for us Anglo-Celts.

Appreciate all your feedback
Very best wishes
Margret

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 08:28 PM

Margret,

Thank you for asking the question. And this has caused me to wonder if off beat clapping is a naturarally found in Aborigine and other non-African descent cultures?

And Margret,since you mentioned books, yes Samuel Floyd'Jr's "The Power of Black Music:Interpreting Its History from Africa to the United States {Oxford, New York; Oxford University Press} is a very interesting book on that subject.

Here are some other ones in no particular order:

Samuel Charters; "The Roots of the Blues-An African Search";
                Boston; London,Marion Boyars, 1981

John Storm Roberts: "Black Music of Two Worlds:African, Caribbean,
                   Latin, and African-American Traditions"
                   New York, Simon & Shuster Macmillan, 1998him   

Francis Bebey [translated by Josephine Bennett}:
             "African Music: A Peoples' Art";
             Chicago, Lawrence Hill Books, 1975                     

****
Aso Magret, what is "GMWA Mass Choirs"?

Also, I'm friends with a several members of a Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania dance group that annually puts on Lanston Hughes' VBlack Nativity. Great that you were adopted by them!!

Of course, you and I are already related since we're both 'Catters !![not to mention women, not to mention human beings, not to mention children of God!!]

Peace,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:07 PM

Hi Azizi - Greetings from Down Under!
By no means do I know a lot about traditional Australian Aboriginal music but ....
it's made solely by voice and didjeridu (latter only in a few regions), and percussion (hand claps, tapping boomerangs, pod shakers) ...... however, syncopation & off-beat emphasis don't seem to be a factor.

Shall add the John Storm Roberts book to the wish list (I already have the other two - thanks)
And let me recommend my very favourite music writer (who happens to have written what I consider the Gospel Music 'Bible") - Anthony Heilbut, author of "The Gospel Sound" (Limelight, NY, 1997, 25th anniversary edition)

GMWA = Gospel Music Workshop of America.
It's the huge (largest?) long running (founded by Rev James Cleveland late '60s) annual Black music convention, different cities most years.
Btw, if you visit my website - just Google my name - you'll find pics of myself there with my favourite Gospel singer, Albertina Walker, and Billy Preston (brother of the massed choirs director, Rodena Williams).

That Langston Hughes script for BLACK NATIVITY remains the same, but I gather the annual updates mean the show's songs and presentation have changed mightily over the decades .... I'm still hoping to track down the (European, I think) B&W TV show of the original cast, which included Alex Bradford & Marion Williams .....

Cheers
Margret

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Feb 05 - 09:16 PM

Margret, you were the inspiration for a thread I just started on books about music history & culture.

Would you please add the book you cited to that thread?

Also, I'm PMing you!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:15 AM

[I should also say that another 'Catter was also the inspiration for that thread on books as he PMed me to say that he wanted to send me a book on British Mummer traditions-which I will read with great interest.]

With regard to the difference between Black/White Gospel, since I haven't heard very much White Gospel, I can't say if this observation is true, but it occurred to me this morning that maybe one difference between the two is how percussive the song is performed. Even if a song isn't particularly percussive, it can be made more percussive by emphasizing certain words, by adding interjections such as un-hun and yeah at the end of certain lines, and by accompanying the song with on beat and off beat handclaps and with foot stomps. Also, the song can be made faster [what I call 'jazzing up' a song]. And maybe repetition itself is a way to make a song more percussive- I'm sure musicians can better speak to this than me...

But consider this..
I woke up this morning with this church song going through my mind:"Brighten the corner where you are".

But the way I was singing it in my head was "Brighten the corner WHERE YOU ARE." and that one sentence was repeated again and again with the "are" having a sharp boom click to it..

And I thought, okay- the 'brightening' starts at home and then it moves outward..

Brighten the corner
WHERE YOU ARE.
Brighten the corner
WHERE YOU ARE.
Cultivate YOUR garden
and then
help your neighbor
cultivate his OWN..
Brighten the corner
WHERE YOU ARE.
Brighten the corner
WHERE YOU ARE.

[this is not quite the song that I associate with a church hymn
but this is the way the song went for me this morning.]

My point is that these thoughts were expressed with a percussive rhythm and that made me think of this thread..

And it may have something to do with the subject at hand..if not, still its a thought

You gotta brighten the corner
WHERE YOU ARE. un hun. un hun un hun.


Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:22 AM

not that it really matters,
but I wrote one sentence that I heard in my dream down wrong,,
that sentence should have been written like this:

Cultivate YOUR garden
and [then]
help your neighbor
cultivate HIS own..

****
Okay, please excuse this slight interruption.

On with the thread!


Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:30 AM

Percussive rhythm is a very strong part of black gospel, even on some of the slower songs, where beats are emphasized, even in a slow line.
Repetition is also typical, and familiar hymns like In The Garden are often chopped into more rhythmic blocks... Last sunday, we heard that song sung by the Men's Chorus of a church in New Haven that my wife and I go to. The lead singer took his time (often amidst shouts of encouragement from the congregation "take your time" while the chorus sang "hw walks with me, he walks with me, he talks with me, he talks with me" in a very syncopated rhythm.

And then, the repetition of the gospel music is mirrored in the sermon, where the minister builds to a climax, with everyone on their feet by pounding home a simple phrase like "HE'S THERE when you are mourning, HE'S THERE when you've lost a loved one, HE'S THERE.." When the minister has raised everyone to a point of high excitement, he'll dramatically stop with a flourish and go sit down, leaving everyone on their feet clapping, and testifying.

The rhythm of the sermon and music draw on the same power of syncopation, strong rhythm and repetition.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:42 PM

Jerry and Azizi, I am fascinated with the whole concept of off-beat clapping. I think white folks seem to have issues with it largely, but in my brief study, the people who are raised Baptist seem to get off beat clapping easily and the "higher" the church, the more difficulty they have with offbeat clapping. Methodists can sorta get it, Presbyterians seem to struggle more and by the time you get to the Episcopalians, well, you can forget it! They will give you all the clapping you want on the beat however! ducks and hides under the pew!   jimmyt

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:04 PM

jimmyt, I'm so glad you said that! I've said it for years - and have received some strange looks!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM

I hate ot stereotype but it seems to hold up more than it doesn't, Mary! My wife was raised seventh day adventist and although she is a fine musician in her own right, she couldn't clap backbeats to save her life! I have observed this witrh a lot of people and invaribly I see the trend there.   Now some Epicopalian or Presbyterian will comment that they can clap offbeat but I am talking trends here!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:40 PM

Earlier this evening, my daughter read my comments about off-beat clapping and wants me to correct what she considers to be a misconception that members or 'middle class' African American Baptist churches aren't doing off-beat clapping anymore..

My daughter wants 'Catters to know that she has attended far more church services lately than I have [true], and off-beat clapping is still being done by young and old at the churches she goes to.

So for the record..while there APPEARS to me to be less off-beat clapping done at Black churches [when I go to church], this practice may be much more common than I inferred in previous post.

****
BTW, I'm trying to get my daughter to join Mudcat, but she hasn't signed up yet and she doesn't lurk very often...

Well, everything happens in the fullness of time..


Azizi

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM

Hey, Azizi: For a white Danish guy I probably attend as many different black churches as most folks, because I am out singing with two Men's Choruses and my own quartet. We see the whole spectrum, from the church where all of us in the quartet are members, which is one of the more reserved black Baptist Churches to the Pentecostal churches where people get in the Spirit and run around the room and speak in tongues. Of course, I can only speak from my experience in a fairly limited geographic area... The sew-fisticated East Coast.
I've been to black churches in Illinois and Missouri too, but most of my experience is in Connecticut and New York State. At least around here, clapping off-beat is uncommon. When I hear it, it tends to be the older members of the church, like my friend Frankie who will be 80 in a couple of months. I'm not saying that there aren't teenagers that clap off beat, because I expect that there are. But, it's an older tradition that doesn't necessarily blend well with keyboards, drums and electric bass. 'Smatter of fact, in my biased opinion, the omnipresence of drums in black churches takes some of the rhythm-keeping out of the hands of the congregation, and I see fewer and fewer tambourines now.

Not that there is anything inherently "better" about the congregation driving the rhythm and getting more involved. I just like it better.

When my quartet plays, there are always keyboard players, drummers and bass guitarists wanting to play with us, and no matter how hard we try to graciously say that we like to keep it simple, I'm afraid that we at times must come off as a little uppity. A lot of people feel that music is automatically "improved" with a drummer. We don't.

Is there a Christian phrase that means the same as "old farts?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:09 AM

I'm trying to understand what exactly you mean by off-beat clapping. In a song that's in 4/4 time and the count is 1, 2, 3, 4, which ones of those would be the off-beat? Or is it somewhere between them?

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:37 AM

Hi, Barbara:

I'm pretty much of a musical illiterate, so don't take my answer as flip. It's the best one I can give. Someone else can answer in terms that might more sense to you. If you want to know what off-beat clapping is, when people start clapping to a song, clap every beat that they don't. And, it can be more complex than that.. people may make two short claps in the space of a beat for more rhythmic diversity.

I know that there are others who come on here who are far more capable of explaining this to you... when Shore Grass joins the Gospel Messengers for our 8th Anniversary, and we do a song together, stand next to Frankie and clap along with him. He probably couldn't explain it to you either.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:50 AM

It's called the backbeat in rock-n-roll.

Most of us here probably do it without thinking, "Am I on the beat on or the backbeat?" A familiar song with strong backbeat opportunities is "Will the Circle Be Unbroken?". The beat is on CIR in "circle," but the rhythm or shufflebow player (s) can give a good WHUMP on that pause between Cir- and -cle.) That's the backbeat.

In folkie terms, if a band plays with shufflebow, the fiddler can take either the accented beats (ONE two THREE four) or the backbeat (one TWO three FOUR) for the invisibly-dotted notes-- while the rhythm guitar takes the other.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:08 AM

So it sounds like 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, where the off-beat is on the "and"? That's not at all unusual for an old rock 'n roller like myself who converted to bluegrass. I usually have the foot going on the beat and the hands going on the off-beat, sometimes with one clap, sometimes double as Jerry mentioned. Doesn't everyone do that?;) Thanks WYSIWYG and Jerry.

For those who weren't there, The Gospel Messengers and ShoreGrass and dwditty did a "Gospel in Black and Blue" workshop at NOMAD this year and it was so much fun. I'm enjoying this thread and also looking forward to on-the-job experience when ShoreGrass joins the Gospel Messengers as guests at their 8th anniversary concert on April 23 in Shelton, CT, USA!

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Dani
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:18 AM

The concept of on- and off-beat clapping is fascinating, and since realizing the difference, I've been observing everywhere I can. I definitely believe that people 'with rhythm', black or white, instinctively (can't help it) liven up the percussion by clapping, tapping, or nodding on the offbeat, and that people 'without' stick with the beat. 'With' and 'without' aren't completely true anymore than 'black' and 'white' are, but there are definitely two camps. Need 'em both for a good song, right?

But it makes very interesting studying.

My best case study recently was on Martin Luther King's Birthday, at a big church filled with people from many different churches, most black but not all.

I'm white, and have always loved percussion of all kinds. Though I am (as my friend says) a christian with "small c", I very much enjoy worshipping in the black churches in my neighborhood. The spirit and energy and joy and music is what attracts me (and the fact that they're not afraid to mention 'sin'. For years I attended a Unitarian church, which never actually moved me in anyway, so I visit wherever I feel welcome.

Interesting side note: I once hosted an inter-church meeting at the Unitarian church, which we conducted in the 'house' manner, in a circle, and very subdued and intellectual. Afterwards, a friend (80ish) from the loudest, singingest, praisingest black Baptist church said to me, "I LIKE it here: a man can think. I can't THINK with all that noise at my church!". I offered to trade with him. I don't want to think when I worship (or sing, for that matter). I want to FEEL!

Dani

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:37 AM

Just a humorous anecdote about rhythm. Up until the first time I heard the Men's Chorus at the black Baptist church where I am now a member, I never had any interest in joining a choir. Choirs in Wisconsin when I was a kid were mostly buxom ladies with vibrato in overdrive. Even the hymns I liked were served up lukewarm. The first time I heard the Men's Chorus, was a real revelation for me. Here were people who put everything they had into the song.. not just their voice, but their bodies and spirits. This is not to suggest that there aren't other forms of gospel and religion singing that don't do this... bluegrass can also bring that same energy and commitment, and I am sure there is religious singing from other faiths and cultures that do the same thing. But, for me, it was experience unlike any I'd ever had.

When I was asked to join the Men's Chorus, I was very excited about it. At the first practice, we were learning a new song and the Chorus Director, Dan Williams was teaching each harmony by ear. When it came time for the baritones to learn their part, we were all standing (as Dan doesn't let you sit down and sing.) I don't remember the song, but it had a strong beat, and I was really moving to it. When the baritones were done, Dan moved on to the tenors, and we remained standing. By the, I was really moving with the beat, and the man next to me said, "You don't have to keep moving, Jerry, we're not singing anymore.." And I answered, "Hey, I've waited 60 years to be able to move to music in church and nobody's stopping me now."

I told this story to an assembly of girls from 1st through fifth grade in a private school when the Messengers were doing a program about black gospel, and one of the youngest girls raised her hand very excitedly after I made the comment about waiting 60 years to be able to move. She asked.."Why did it take you so long?" and the place went into an uproar of laughter. Me more than anyone. It was a good question. Why is it that moving when you sing is so discouraged in many churches? I suppose because the music doesn't have a strong beat to it, to begin with.

Different strokes for different folks.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop
From: Dani
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:49 AM

I LOVE that story, Jerry! How wonderful for you, and that you share that story, so it won't take others so long to know themselves!

The trick here is to find the place where you belong: and hope they'll have you! I'm still working on it.

Dani