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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST,Conspiracy Theorist Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:01 AM I think different. If Luke kelly had not recorded tthe "song" Paddy Kavanagh would have remained some obscure poet. Now his poems are on the school curriculum. Personally, I don't think much of them. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST Date: 20 Sep 06 - 06:49 PM Writing poetry and writing song lyrics are equal but different artforms. It's all about phrasing. If you write poetry with a metre suitable for singing you're wasting the medium of poetry. The whole point of the spoken word, against the sung word, is that even when written in strict time it creates a subtle cadence of its own, which can only be spoiled by the addition of a tune. The repetition of 'known' referred to above is a perfect example - in the poem the return to that 'key note' adds power - but when you sing it you can't return to the note there, so it just sounds like bad writing. And that lovely 'stint/tint' line becomes gobbledgook. Read the original poem aloud - you'll soon see what I mean. Likewise song lyrics, spoken, tend to sound pedestrian - no matter how beautiful or clever the language. Great songwriters understand how to match lyric and melody so that they add their own harmony to eachother - something horribly missing in Raglan Road which works fantastically in some places (purely by luck) but which is an embarrassing joke in others. If Kelly was so smitten with Lavanagh's poem he should, with the poet's permission, have witten new words (with full attribution, of course), that DID work with the tune, and did convey Kavanagh's images and idea adequately through the very different medium of song. Or if that was impossible or beyond his skill, he shouldn't have bothered. Bodging one to the other was lazy and disrespectful to both works, and produced a mess - which is why everyone sings it wrong. They have to. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Mr Happy Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:22 PM 'by word and hint, I did not stint, I gave her poems to say' Clear? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:56 AM Clear, yes, but wrong. Not wrong to change it from the words Kavanagh wrote, not wrong to remove the reference to the four muses (though that's a shame because with a bit more thought it could probably have been kept) but wrong because by removing the 'word and tint' but leaving 'sound and stone' you've made a mockery of the second line, which now makes no sense whatsoever. Anyone singing this lyric passionately is just going to look like a great big stupid fool who's singing pure bollix to an atonished and confused audience. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Snuffy Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:12 AM I agree that to make the words come alive it can't be done in strict meter, You can keep the words and notes but take liberties with the timing and line endings. Then you can sing: The true gods of sound and stone and word and tint Without stint I gave her poems to say And again in the last verse you can sing: When the angel woos the clay PAUSE He'd lose his wings PAUSE At the dawn of day Instead of the godawful When the angel woos PAUSE The clay he'd lose PAUSE His wings at the dawn of day |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Big Tim Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:26 PM Anybody who wants to know more about Patrick Kavanagh should read 'Patrick Kavanagh: a biography' (2003), by [Professor] Antoinnette Quinn. It's not perfect, Kavanagh's brother Dr. Peter Kavanagh has taken some issue with the author, but it's pretty dammned good. btw, according to the Penguin Modern Classics 'Collected Poems' of Patrick Kavanagh, it definitely 'pledge'. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' From: ard mhacha Date: 21 Sep 06 - 12:32 PM Read The Green Fool and Tarry Flynn by the man himself, two classics. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 21 Sep 06 - 01:57 PM Four years on from my initial post, I see the DigiTrad still hasn't amended the "passion's play" line. I'm not certain whether I am reassured or whether I am disappointed ... I very much appreciate Thompson's post Date: 12 Dec 04 - 06:43 AM where he posts the words as Kavanagh wrote them. The verse in question, when laid out like this, makes a great deal of sense. I have only ever heard it sung thus: "I gave her gifts of the mind I gave her the secret sign That's known to the artists who have known the true gods of sound and stone" However, after a minute of mental visualisation, I figured out it could be sung I gave her gifts of the mind I gave her the secret sign that's known To the artists who have known the true gods of sound and stone I am certain there will be dozens of indignant replies pointing out that of course that is how it should be sung, but I can only repeat that the former is the only way I have ever heard it sung. Furthermore, that is how Luke Kelly sang it, and he also sang Snuffy's "Godawful" "When the angel woos PAUSE The clay he'd lose PAUSE His wings at the dawn of day " WIth all due respect to Luke's memory, I feel that if were around nowadays to read this thread, he might rethink his interpretation. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST,baggnz Date: 02 Jun 07 - 03:32 PM I agree with Declan. who, five years ago now, offered: "...and words and tint, I did not stint I gave her poems to say" Also.. Pledge ought to be the consensus |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Jim Dixon Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:27 PM I wouldn't think of wading into this controversy, but anyone who wants to find Kavanagh's "Collected Poems" in a library might find WorldCat useful. Americans and Canadians can enter their ZIP Code or postal code to find the nearest library that has it; I'm not sure how well it works for other countries. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: MuddleC Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:40 PM ....and life is breathed into the sleeping corpse............! Okay, I will quickly say how I sing this and apply the folk process sandpaper.. '..the POWER of passion's PLEDGE.' '..OF ARTIST'S HONED and who have known,..'(cuts out the known/known problem and scans) '..When the angel woos the clay he'll loose, (PAUSE)..his wings aaat the dawn(PAUSE)of day-yy' >>'Dark-Haired Miriam'(MuddleC's arrangement)(Unaccompanied) On Raglan Road OF an autumn day, I met her first and knew That her dark hair would weave a snare, that I might one day rue; I saw the danger, yet I walked , along the enchanted way, And I said, let grief be a fallen leaf, at the dawning of the day. On Grafton Street in November, we tripped lightly along the ledge Of A deep ravine where can be seen, the POWER of passion's pledge, The Queen of Hearts still making tarts and I not making hay - O I loved too much, and by such and such, is happiness thrown away. I gave her gifts of the mind, I gave her the secret sign OF ARTIST'S HONED and who have known, the true gods of sound and stone And word and tint, I did not stint for I gave her poems to say. With her own name there and her long dark hair like clouds over fields of May On a quiet street, where old ghosts meet, I see her walking now Away from me so hurriedly, my reason must allow That I had wooed not as I should, a creature made of clay - When the angel woos the clay he'll loose, his wings at the dawn of day. Original version by Patrick Kavanagh I'll get my coat |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST,Wolf Date: 28 Aug 07 - 03:38 AM To Murray McLeod: I think you're right with your comment on "The clay he'd lose" (of course you are), and I figured out that "the secret sign that's known"-thing as well (after reading the poem in its original form). But regarding the latter I did fail to convince myself that the lines really should be sung this way. Opening the next line with that "to" sounds harsh and uneasy to me, and I would miss having the previous line end with that "secret sign". And after all we got an internal rhyme (or at least kind of it) with the "known"-"known". I think singing should follow it own rules. The melody does not really fit - so we have to manage with it in one way or another. P.S.: Interesting thread, and thanks for the original lyrics! P.P.S.: Luke Kelly (and many followers) did replace the (first) "wooed" with "loved". This alteration should be rejected, too. It may sound familiar and folky, but diminishes rhyme and, what's more, meaning. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Aug 07 - 08:20 PM I've just happened upon this thread for the first time. I don't really "do" poetry much, but this poem somehow insinuates itself deep into my imagination. I've tried for several years to pin down a definitive version, without success. But it has to be "pledge" to make sense to me, and it definitely has to be the true gods of sound and stone and words and tint. Luke's version is one of my eight desert island discs and I'll forgive him the odd bit of artistic licence. I do not agree with the following comment from this thread (several years old now!) at all: [QUOTE}I think it is "pledge", but the line that worries me more is the one about "known to artists who have known" -- this seems to me to be carelessness. I don't think that the line can be "who have seen". But if someone has a better version of the line than the clumsy repetition of "known" I would appreciate it. yours, Peter T. [UNQUOTE] The repetition of "known" is anything but carelessness. The author of this post is applying rules where there should be none. Yeats employs repetition very effectively in "The Song of Wandering Aengus:" I went out to the hazel wood, Because a fire was in my head, And cut and peeled a hazel wand, And hooked a berry to a thread; And when white moths were on the wing, And moth-like stars were flickering out, I dropped the berry in a stream And caught a little silver trout. When I had laid it on the floor I went to blow the fire aflame, But something rustled on the floor, And some one called me by my name: It had become a glimmering girl With apple blossom in her hair Who called me by my name and ran And faded through the brightening air. Though I am old with wandering Through hollow lands and hilly lands, I will find out where she has gone, And kiss her lips and take her hands; And walk among long dappled grass, And pluck till time and times are done The silver apples of the moon, The golden apples of the sun. Note the deliberate repetition of "hazel," "moth," "floor," "called me by my name" and "lands." I'm not going to begin to try to describe the effect this has on my imagination as I read the poem, but it works for me, and clumsy it ain't! As I say, I'm no poetry scholar, but that repetition of "known" by Kavanagh strikes a very positive chord with me as I read the poem. Sorry to have waffled on for so long without adding much, but I do love the poem! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST,Gillian Gardner Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:44 PM Obviously many people are tormented by trying to fit the lyric and the tune. I did find a solution that flows very nicely and doesn't alter the meaning of the lines with the two words "known". Try this -it is easy to phrase... I gave her gifts of the mind; I gave her the secret sign Of artists who have known the true gods of sound and stone ... So simple and eliminates the word congestion. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 05 Mar 08 - 10:38 AM It also eliminates the rhyme "known" and "stone"; and, as has been pointed out in another of the threads devoted to a torturing this one poor verse a thousand ways, internal rhyme and assonance is very much a feature of this work, and has a relationship to Irish song in general. I guess that, in the posting above, you're following Luke Kelly's phrasing rather than doing what, two centuries back, Robert Burns recommended doing with melody and verse; become thoroughly familiar with the music before making any attempt to fit words to it. There's no congestion here; "i GAVE hr GIFTS of th MIND; i GAVE hr th SEE-cret SIGN that's KNOWN to the AR-tists WHO have KNOWN the TRU-ue gods of SOUND and STONE and WORD and TINT; i DID not stint &c..." A recent thread on the Irish baritone H Plunkett Greene and his views on the rhythmic freedom employed by traditional singers might be of interest with regard to fitting these long phrases to the melody in a way that does manage to convey the sense |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 05 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM Sorry, "gods" above should also have been in Upper-Case to denote a stress; but, you recognised that I'm sure. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Mr Happy Date: 05 Mar 08 - 10:44 AM I've always sung it as 'By word and hint ,I did not stint' |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: Jim Dixon Date: 07 Mar 08 - 08:24 AM If anyone is in doubt about the correct text of ON RAGLAN ROAD as intended by Patrick Kavanagh, it might help to consult several print copies that are available through Google Book Search: Very Best Irish Songs & Ballads By Pat Conway, 1999, page 11. Irish Writing in the Twentieth Century: A Reader By David Pierce, 2000, page 780. Gather Round Me: The Best of Irish Popular Poetry By Christopher Cahill, 2004, page 45. These books are still under copyright--so is the original poem, apparently--and so the complete books are not viewable. They are in the "limited preview" category. Only selected pages are viewable, and those pages happen to include ON RAGLAN ROAD. (At least they are viewable to me, in the US, but we have found that some books are not viewable everywhere.) I suppose the publishers have given permission for excerpts to be shown, in order to promote sales of the books. (I wonder how that works, when the publisher of an anthology is not the owner of the copyrights on the original works?) Anyway, I find no significant discrepancy between the Pierce book and the Cahill book, but right off the bat, I see that the Conway book has "I saw her" where the other two have "I met her." Also Conway calls it RAGLAN ROAD where the other two call it ON RAGLAN ROAD. I'm inclined to believe Pierce and Cahill rather than Conway. I'm speculating here: Maybe the editors of "poetry" books are more careful than the editors of "song" books. Maybe people feel that calling something a "song" rather than a "poem" gives permission for the folk process to creep in--even when the text is credited to a known author. Conway does have the music "lead sheet" for the first verse, as well as chords. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: ard mhacha Date: 26 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM An article on Kavanagh`s wily ways in to-days Irish Times. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1126/1224259481211.html |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:10 AM “Of the deep ravine where can be seen the worth of passion's pledge” I believe this line refers to the alcove porch entrance on Johnson’s court (off Grafton Street) to St. Teresa’s Church Clarendon Street. That is where marriage bans of pending nuptials were posted on the church notice board. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: GUEST,Frank Branigan Date: 04 Apr 20 - 10:19 AM “Of the deep ravine where can be seen the worth of passion's pledge” I believe this line refers to the marriage bans of upcoming nuptials that were traditionally posted on the notice board in the alcove entrance from Johnson’s Court (off Grafton Street) to St. Teresa’s Church, Clarendon Street. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Raglan Road, is it 'pledge' or 'play' ? From: MoorleyMan Date: 04 Apr 20 - 03:35 PM Pledge it is, since it rhymes with ledge... |
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