BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:44 PM

Rumsfeld on the accidental bombing of an Afghan wedding party

"We don't know what we don't know so we know there is no confirmation of these allegations"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:31 PM

Amos: Harry Luce? Who dat? You didn't mean Henry Luce did you?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Tweed
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:21 PM

Yep, it's all very strange stuff ain't it Amos? Oddly enough the mainstream media doesn't report anything of this sort and therefore reports of this nature fall into the crackpot file, even though there seems to be extensive documentation at hand for verification.
I listened to the A**hole of the Right, Rushbo, yesterday and he announced with glee that a large number of liberal type journalists were all let go from major news agencies this week. Apparently there are few reporters left who can report anything that could undermine the current load of horseshit that gets dumped on us daily. More hard times ahead folks, but we'll make it through somehow or other. The scales are too overloaded on one side and that's never worked very well for long.

Yerz,
Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:41 AM

According to this article at Common Dreams he is a vicious hypocrite. Dunno how that compares to sanity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:58 AM

no he's a into politics of course he's not sane none of them are.

I am a Christian and I do say that he and Bush and Powell are all handmaidens of the Anti-Christ.

God help us all

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 12:42 AM

If I were a Christian, I'd say that Rumsfeld's the handmaiden of the anti-christ. Since I'm not, he's Bush's bum boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Tweed
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 08:42 PM

NO!! Rumbo's not sane. Saddam's not sane. George ain't sane. Rushbo fans the flames. Somehow these loonies have acquired great power and now we're in the shit.

Yerz,
Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 08:12 PM

That's ingenious, Carol. But the sentences all hang together much too grammatically for the ikes of Rumsfeld and Prescott.

John Prescott Old Labour? Old Labour was a combination of different elements, as all parties are. There was a pretty cynical Tammany Hall style party machine of people on the make, and there was also a mass of people with various ideals and enthusiasms and principles. (I say that as someone who was never even close to being a member.)

The New Labour project consisted of dumping the latter half, and holding onto the former, including of course John Prescott; and welding it to a filleted version of the policies of a self-destructing Conservative Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:44 PM

I may not be quite sane as I find the landfill quote quite easy to read. Having your spoken words transcribed is an eye-opener for anyone. The problem that speaker (Prescott) had was a gratuitous use, (probably from nervous habit, or for thinking-time delay ) of the words "indeed that of."

(He was merely trying to say that the landfills have been filled to capacity, leaving incineration as the only real alternative to recycling.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:34 PM

Careful, Carol.

Prescott is part of the 'old labour' that Kevin yearns for

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:31 PM

McGrath, I believe I have found the place where people like Rumsfeld and Prescott get their material...

Click Here

Here's a sample:

Unless you're a newly hatched pod person, you already know that much of the Hon Mr. Prescott's success is due to the rest of us bending over backwards to assist him and to overlook his failings. But let me add that only the worst types of vainglorious hatemongers there are are capable of imagining that mediocrity and normalcy are ideal virtues. Let me cut to the chase: The Hon Mr. Prescott's tirades may have been conceived in idealism, but they quickly degenerated into coldhearted commercialism. It's our responsibility to fight tooth and nail against him. That's the first step in trying to prevent the production of a new crop of savage bigamists, and it's the only way to denounce those who claim that voyeurism and credentialism are identical concepts. Just to add a little more perspective, everything I've said so far is by way of introduction to the key point I want to make in this letter. My key point is that the Hon Mr. Prescott uses the very intellectual tools he criticizes, namely consequentialist arguments rather than arguments about truth or falsity. As a parting thought, remember that the Hon Mr. Prescott isn't as smart as he thinks he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM

In answer to your question, no

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:25 PM

In any quick read of a variety of print media, from both liberal and conservative camps, does not support a man who is unclear or often misspoken.

Oh, Claymore, you just do make me laugh so!!

The media until very recently has drooled spittle all over the very clay feet of the most moronic speaker ever to grace the front pages of American journals since Alfred E. Neuman, a man who cannot complete a grammatical thoughtful sentence of more than four words because he is too busy putting on the spin, pumping out mindless tautologies and simplistic platitiudes...a man who has made more verbal gaffes in one year than Quayle has made since he was born (dumpkopf that he was)...and you say the media doesn't support it? The media has been inventing ways to ruin the English language ever since Harry Luce started condoning Timespeak. G'yamme one durned break theah, podnuh! There was a time when it was felt thay clear language was a reflection of clear thought, and vice-versa. Today, such a porposition would be condemned as _unpatriotic_!!!

Rumsfeld's sanity is betrayed less by his usual language than by his anxiety to destroy human flesh as a means of persuasion, not a trait I associate with the paradigms of sanity I have met.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:25 PM

Whoa, McGrath! Y'all got one of them too? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:20 PM

I think in this country the term "conservative", and even the Conservative Party to some extent, does still retain some shreds of the historic meaning of "being opposed to excessive change". And my impression is that that would be liable to be seen as a potentially "liberal" point of view in the USA at present by radicals who describe themselves as "conservative".

If it's possible for a Defence Secretary to say things like that without it being re-printed and commented on in the press, that seems a little worrying.

John Prescott, Deputy Prime Ministerr here, for example, is renowned for talking gobbledegook in which, even if somehow in some mysterious way you get a sense of what he means, it is clear that he doesn't actually say it. The press here loves to preserve and reprint such gems. That happens regardless of the political colour of the papers -

For example: "I think the problems of waste management are very, very considerable, not only to this country but to many others, and whether or not this landfill, incineration or recycling, all of these have played the part as my hon friend will know, that the matter of landfill has now been an issue which is rightly closed off and the balance between recycling and indeed that of incineration is the ones that government have to face."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:01 PM

Anyone who believes in killing other people... except in defense and that defense is the minimum force needed to accomplish that goal... is, in my opinion, insane. Since it is becoming increasingly apparent that Bush and Rumsfirled can not make such as case, than, yes, both are insane.

As for the people who will fight, kill and die I use another yardstick in that they are more victims and as such, when the smoke clears and it is apparent that the bulk of the deaths will be of civilians, they will exhibit behaviors which look a lot like insanity. And who's to say that the alcoholism, drug addiction, domestoic violence won't carry many of them into a life of insane behaviors.

Just look at the number of veterans who have returned from Afganistan and killed their spouses. Insane behavior....

But, yeah, Rumsey crossed the line a long time ago..

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:48 PM

Sorry Claymore. I just can't help myself...

Finally, GUEST: These are adults talking...

hahahahaha... AAHHhhhahahahaha.... HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:16 PM

You know, if you take Rumsfeld's "moon" statement, misspell a few words and add a few "9"s to it, it makes just as much sense as the drunken ramblings of some of our friends from the city of Kingston upon Hull.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:13 PM

Bill,

I am not a ditto head, I can't stand Rush. I follow no political expedia. I view every single subject and platyform plank by it self and won't lump anything together, no matter how contrary for the good of the party.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:03 PM

Yep, Bill, you are right. The Sky is Falling.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:55 PM

that is my posting as guest above, am sick and tired of you rush limbaugh dittoheads and your right wing nonsense, Rumsfeld is dangerous and must be stopped.

Is the only consolation to be found in the great song by Tom Lehrer?,


'We will all burn together when we burn.
There'll be no need to stand and wait your turn.
When it's time for the fallout,
And Saint Peter calls us all out
We'll just drop our agendas and adjourn.

You will all go directly to your respective Valhallas
Go directly. Do not pass GO. Do not collect two hundred dolla's'

that means all you Republicans who voted for Bush and your children and grandchildren too.

These guys in DC are serious threats, they WILL use nuclear weapons someday, (Not Saddam or North Korea, US, we've already done it twice and the "think" tanks see scenarios where they think it's advisable to do again)
when they do, all hell will break out, and Tom Lehrer's got it right

We will all char together when we char....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:52 PM

Obviously, whatever Dan Quayle has is contageous.

If the moon were really made of green cheese, rockets would be shaped like fondu forks.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Big Tim
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:51 PM

Is McGrath of Harlow sane? Is Little Hawk sane? Are you sane? Am I sane, definitely!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM

Aside from whatever legitimate quotes are mentioned above, Sec'ty Rumsfeld is long been characterized as a straight shooter who's pretty clear about what he is doing and where he is headed. In any quick read of a variety of print media, from both liberal and conservative camps, does not support a man who is unclear or often misspoken. I suspect that to the extent the quote is accurate, it becomes newsworthy simply because it is out of character for him. And the fact that it has appeared in no US papers that I can access, leads me to believe that it's a case of something that was perfectly clear to the on-scene reporters, but appears garbled in the transcript.

Finally, GUEST: These are adults talking... Now if you can't play upstairs quietly with the other children, I'm going to have to send you home...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:12 PM

Dave, I thot that was Ichy Thump. I seem to recall it from the one or two episodes of The Goodies I saw here in the states. I can't imagine there being more than one Welsh martial art.

Regarding conservative and liberal. I am fair convinced that there are diferent meanings to this words between American English and British English.

Naemanson, yup he sure is in the current administration and is probably guilty by some associations. But I am not convinced that all members of the current administration are assholes, jerks, or dangerous because they breath. I think that Colin Powell may well be what stands between us and war with our enemies real or imagined.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM

I like Rum's: We know of certain knowledge- Bin Laden is either in Afghanistan- or in some other country- or dead.

I also like: I shouldn't say 'I don't think so', but that's what I think.

Assuming we all survive these coming years, generations to come will at the least be bemused.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:49 PM

Military solutions are in vogue. They are usually based on a kind of propaganda politically but if you ask some military people what they really think off the record, they might be more cautious in that they have had experience with faulty decisions. Vietnam, a case in point.

Bush is thinking of himself not as a statesman but a Commander-in-Chief of the armed services. It's a powerful position. This, according to Neudstadt, "Presidential Power" is the goal of every "successful" president.

There is a peculiar rewrite of the World War II scenario in the lines of military solutions these days. People in powerful positions living in the past are running the propaganda machine.
To compare this Iraqi situation with Hitler or Stalin is total folly. It's ignoring the obvious differences. Hitler or Stalin did not have the backing of fundamentalist religious leaders in the same way.

Hussein is a "religious" dictator as is bin Laden because they use their beliefs as a weapon to mobilize other Islamic countries. Their recruits can't be bombed out of existence. Islamic people who do not agree with this "fundamentalism" are afraid to speak out because of the reprisals from both the East and the West.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM

Anyone remember the Welsh martial art of Llap Goch in one of the Monty Python books? When we saw it here
it was funny.

Now it is just scary.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM

"I'd say that most North Americans are a bit insane, only not by their own standards" Keep in mind, Little Hawk, that you live in North America. :)

The US administrative staff(s) at the top level must have a giggle session after each meeting. Are Rumsfeld and GeeWhiz related? Or is it a case of which came first: the chicken or the egg? Where did we find these people?

We are in forlorn times.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:30 PM

Well, I think we should launch a pre-emptive strike against the moon! There are little green men men made cheese up there conspiring with giant purple Venutian octopi to perform as-yet-unspecified evil deeds that will pose a threat to world peace. (Makes as much sense to me as a secular megalomaniac like Saddam conspiring with a religious fanatic like Bin Laden.) I say we let the warmongers shoot their load at the moon and then they'll need a break to recharge their batteries before searching out their next conquest. Maybe by then they'll have been voted out of office.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Naemanson
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM

Short answer: NO!

He is in the current administration so he is neither sane or intellegent.

Does anyone know where I can find a list of the people in the administration? I'm wondering who Bush has at his elbow as a science advisor.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:03 PM

And Saddam IS sane, and should be allowed to continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM

sane or insane he is a danger to the world and must be stopped

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:48 PM

McGrath: the answer to your question (IMO of course) is yes. That particular quote (which I have not seen in a U. S. newspaper by the way ...not saying it didn't take place though)sounds a bit off the wall, I agree, but many a politician has uttered pretty stipid statements to the press from time to time. He is not alone in that.

As to the political leanings of the "Telegraph," your reference to "conservative" might be a bit flawed. As has been pointed out in this forum on many occasions, the meaning of the word "conservative" in Great Britian (example: Conservative Party)might be poles apart from they way we use the term, "conservative," in the U. S. I'm sure you know that in the U. S., the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are not the names of political parties. There are "liberal" and "conservative" thinkers in both the Democratic and the Republican Party.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:44 PM

Tsk, tsk, LH, those sweeping generalisations, again, eh?**bg**

C-flat, some warning next time, please...I've snorted tea up m'nose learning about "unknown unknowns!" Jaysus, do ya 'spose these idiots ever listen to what they've actually said? Of course, if they do, they obviously don't get it! Id-ee-oughts!!

Thanks, Kevin!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:40 PM

Maybe he's just stupid. On the other hand, I'd say that most North Americans are a bit insane, only not by their own standards, that's all. They get it from living in an insane marketing system and being too much out of touch with nature and natural things.

I'm sure there is the odd exception to this...out in the boondocks somewhere, and you may be that exception for all I know.

Then there's my mother's dog. He is DEFINITELY insane. But his powers of action, fortunately, are quite limited.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: C-flat
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:36 PM

My personal favourite is "Do I know?", at the bottom of the list. Don't miss it!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: C-flat
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:32 PM

There's a few more Rumsfeld peaches here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:25 PM

And in English the same sense is conveyed by the term lunatic.

Tom of Bedlam expressed it all more poetically:

And when that I'll be murdering
The Man in the Moon to the powder
His staff I'll break, his dog I'll shake
And there'll howl no demon louder

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM

This is certainly stupid. But if you accept his premises, it isn't insane -- IF you leave the moon out of it. Il ne frappera pas contra la lune, mais je crois qu'il frappe _dans_ la lune!

:>)

(To be "dans la lune" is a colloquialism for madness).


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Rumsfeld sane?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:14 PM

Yup, sound like a Conservative Republican to me.

Don

Subject: BS: Is Rumsfeld a lunatic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:08 PM

Now here is a word-for word quote from Donald Rumsfeld, US Defence Secretary. He spoke them at a Press Conference in the Pentagon on August 27th, but it doesn't seem to have had the attention it deserved.

Anyway it turned up in the paper today. And just in case Doug reads this, no it wasn't The Guardian, it was the Daily Telegraph, which is probably conservative, even by US standards - well, maybe I exaggerate there, but it is well on the right-wing of the Conservative Party here.

Anyway, here it is, and it pretty clearly seems to suggest a man who is somewhat disoriented. I suppose it might not be a permanent condition - perhaps he was off his head on some legal or illegal drug at the time. Either way though it is pretty scary:

Reporter: What Makes a pre-emptive strike legal under international law, in your eyes?

Rumsfeld: Say the United States was considering a pre-emptive strike against the moon. Of course, the advantage of not acting against the moon would be that noone could say that you acted. They would say "Isn't it good? You didn't do anything against the moon." The other side of the coin of not acting against the moon in the event that the moon posed a serious threat would be that you then suffered a loss and you're sorry after that's over.