Homeschooling Musicians

Subject: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:23 AM

I'm looking for some direction from other homeschooing musicians. How do you approach music with your kids? My husband and I have given a guitar to our five year old (hubby's area of expertise) and I'm teaching the him the piano. The three year old wants in on it but we don't want to give him a toy guitar (maybe a junior one...) We've been doing open tuning on the five year old's guitar. Any words of advice from a more seasoned musical homeschooler?

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:53 AM

Beccy,

I believe that the most important thing you can do is to play and sing music with your children. You set the model by doing it yourselves. The five-year old will probably not be motivated to practice on his own, so you'll do best by practicing with him/her.
As soon as possible, get the five-year old to build chords in standard tuning. ( Maybe two guitars, one in each tuning.) You might think that kids would get confused about this but they don't have the same learning "disabilities" as adults because it hasn't been trained out of them.

The best thing you can do for your three year old is to start singing regularly with him/her. A toy guitar or whatever to fool around with isn't going to be a problem with one the exception...remember he/she eventually needs to know the difference in that real musical instruments are not toys.

The more you participate with your children, the more likely they will get involved and eventually involve their children. And be sure to have fun with it. That's the most important.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:03 PM

Thanks, Frank. Our concern with the toy guitar was that he would treat it roughly and then transfer that behavior over to a real guitar. Our kids are pretty mellow, though... so maybe it's just shell shock from seeing too many musicians trash instruments (gasp gasp, wheeze) Do you think the two guitar thing would really be a good idea? Our point in open tuning was so that he could strum without forming the chords. As long as I play in D he's okay to play with me. His rhythm abilities are quite good now. Would introducing the second guitar in standard tuning be too early? We don't want to be stage parents, but we're eager to have the kids jam with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:29 PM

Yeah, Becky, there is some debate about starting them on open tuning. There is a book out there, the "Right Start" system or something like that. I started using it with my little girl, but switched over to using standard tuning. I found it easier.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:36 PM

Five is too little to tackle guitar. His hands are too small and the connective tissue is too soft and immature to take on an adult's job. He also has his intellectual plate full by needing to learn to read, etc. Quit pushing the kids.

There was an article in our Catholic newspaper recently. The head of instruction said that children from well-off homes commonly have high levels of stress chemicals in their blood streams because their parents are pushing them so much. The children get the message that unless they are at the top of the heap, their parents won't love them.

I have a friend who is an excellent piano teacher. She doesn't want to start lessons until the child has mastered reading - about age 7 at the earliest.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:42 PM

I don't think you can start too early BUT the child has to want to do it themselves and have a desire to learn. I started learning the violin at the age of 4 and was never pushed by my parents into practicing and learning the instruments. I agree that the best thing is to sing with your chid, introduce all various different types of the music. The child has to enjoy what they are doing. You may find that if you try to push the child in a particular direction they will rebel against it and not want to do it you may find that as they get older they may want to learn an instrument that is different from their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM

I'm with guest leenia. I also don't understand what homeschooling has to do with this.

There is no legitimate reason to start pushing kids into playing an instrument at such young ages, except the mania of the parents, in my experience. You are just forcing them to play the instrument YOU want them to play.

Now, that is not to say you shouldn't be doing musical activities with your kids. We sang our way through the day, just making up sing song, adapting songs we knew and on the spot made up new words for, that sort of thing. The language skills are so much more important at this age, and singing the most natural music activity that supports that for very young children. Other than that, we banged on, hummed on, strummed and clanged on anything and everything. We spent some serious money on music stuff over the years. Maracas, small drums, xylophones, keyboards, bells (really cool and the kids loved that one--for a max of about 5 minutes), the floor, the pans, the kazoos, the mouth harp, a bazillion flutes/whistles, and our all time fave, the rain stick.

Children need to explore at an early age. They'll learn what they want. They'll get the singing drills soon enough in school and church, if you put them in those classes.

I have friends who homeschooled their kids, and once they were old enough to start lessons, around age 8, they NEVER taught them. Put them in lessons with music teachers, for social and emotional reasons. Homeschooled kids should absolutely NOT be locked up excluswively with their parent-teacher. It has a very negative effect on their long term social development. Homeschooled kids need contact with other kids outside the home, and in an environment where the parent-teacher isn't in control. My friends who homeschooled regularly enrolled their kids in classes at places like the Science Museum, music classes, drama classes, art classes, dropped them off at the library for story times, that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

catsPhiddle, I agree if a child shows an interest, and picks up an instrument on their own (and I really mean on their own) and begins playing/practicing it with a sincere interest, they be allowed to follow it. But that is pretty rare, even in cultures where children begin playing instruments at a tender age, like in Irish trad music families. However, there is never any justification for pushing them into playing an instrument under age 7 or 8 (depending on the child).

Some of the most gifted instrumentalists I have ever known didn't pick up an instrument until their teens, and of the trad players I know, never had any lessons whatsoever. Now, does that mean I don't favor lessons? No. I think lessons are fine. But parents need to accept the fact that most kids who receive instrument lessons aren't ever going to be great players. Most people who learn music aren't gifted at it, they just enjoy it. THAT is what we need to encourage, or we are guilty ourselves of robbing people of the joy of the music.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:07 PM

Oh I forgot. One of the very best musical activities we ever enjoyed with our kids--absolutely free--was mimicry. We would go outside, and imitate the bird songs we heard, anyway we could make the sound. We whistled, croaked, cooed...it was a blast, and my daughter has about the best cardinal song I've heard on anybody but a cardinal! Mimicry is also great training for learning other languages. Children learn languages with tremendous ease around this age Beccy, so if I were you, I'd put a little more effort into teaching activities that support them learning a second language, and use songs as the music to support the language. Also, learning about the instruments in cultures who speak that language, etc. It is a great wholistic way of teaching for that age especially.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:14 PM

All great ideas. On a little more mundane level - The "Smart Start" guitar method by Jessica Turner is probably the simplest and most accessable instruction for kids. It utilizes an open G tuning of the guitar and begins by just teaching the children to strum the open G chord as an accompaniment to singing. It is published by Hal Leonard, and is available through Homespun, which also has an accompnying video. I also believe Ms. Turner has just published a version of "Smart Start" for adults, if anyone is interested in learning to play guitar but has found it somewhat difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:16 PM

Please don't assume that I lock my kids away from society simply because I homeschool them. I am a music teacher for a homeschool co-op that meets twice a week for 3 hours (it has 69 kids, including mine) where they get gym class, music class, friendship time, and art class. Plus, they attend once weekly story time at the library for 2 hours and attend church school once weekly for 2 hours. My kids are socialized to the max.
Now, regarding pushing my sons... The reason we started them on the instruments was because THEY asked to play with us. We started with little drums (kiddie bodhrans, tom toms, bongos, etc...) and only progressed to guitar and piano because they wanted "to play with Mommy and Daddy." I don't need to tell any of you with kids how you know what your kids want. Most frequently, they tell you- often, loudly, urgently and repeatedly. By the bye, my husband never picked up any instrument at all until 15 yrs of age and he is a brilliant guitarist, pianist, drummer and (yes, I mean it) tuba player. He's pretty darned good at the fiddle, bass fiddle and guitar and bodhran as well. So he is a living testament to the ability to pick up and master instruments in adulthood.
About the second language? Way ahead of you there. I'm bilingual and have spoken to my children in both French and English since birth. Additionally, I'm pretty capable with ASL, so my kids hands have been getting lots of dexterity practice since they were tiny wee bairns.
I knew there was some danger in getting preached at in posting this thread. Forgive me if I sound defensive, but we homeschoolers can catch a lot of ideological flack.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:46 PM

Thanks for that extra information about your circumstance Beccy. Speaking strictly for myself, it would have helped if you had told us in your original post that you are a music teacher for a homeschool coop, because it provides the context that was missing for why you wanted this sort of information for such young children.

Since you originally told us your children are ages 3 and 5, that means one isn't even of legal age for school, and the other would only have been allowed to enroll in kindergarten in most states at age 5, unless they were in an early childhood program that starts children before age 5. So upon reading your first post, I wondered why this emphasis on "schooling" for children who are still as young as yours? I thought to myself, my god, what's the hurry? Is this parent pushing too much too soon?

Plenty of parents are providing their children with a multitude of music opportunities at that age, though I don't know of many music teachers who are teaching their own children to play an instrument quite so young. As I said at the beginning, that isn't something unique to parents who homeschool. Like anyplace else, people in Mudcat really enjoy any opportunity to talk about their children, and offer inexperienced parents ideas, especially if we think they might be headed down a road fraught with future difficulties they can't themselves foresee. That is the value of having input from people older and more experienced than ourselves.

You seem very bright and capable, and determined to give your children the best you can. You and your husband are obviously very talented and gifted musicians, so I doubt your children will suffer any hardship in that department. So maybe taking it easy, not concerning yourself with lessons, and letting things take their natural course is the best route to follow for now, since they are, I assume, attending the music classes you are teaching for the homeschool coop. Considering how intensely you and your husband are involved in music, you might want to consider just following your individual child's lead for a couple of years, and keep the "lessons" and "practicing" out of it.

Best of luck to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:01 PM

The bilingual aspect is wonderful. I wish that I had started to learn a foreign language before I was in high school (11 in UK). My cousin started learning french when they were 7 and found it a lot easier to handle when they got to high school.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:04 PM

Cat- Have you ever heard of Muzzy? It's a great start if you want to learn another language. It's put out by the BBC. It's good for kids and adults. I learned French by living in La France. Immersion remains the best option for learning any language, but there does exist a vast number of resources for learning as an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:04 PM

Once kids reach that pre-puberty/puberty stage, it becomes very difficult for them to learn a language in a formal school setting especially, because of teasing from their peers.

One of my pet peeves. Kids should be taught a second language by being spoken to in that language from a very young age. This can be done as early as kindergarten, for a small portion of the time they are in school, and increasing in the amount of time as they get older and can handle more. I think they should be taught reading and writing in the same way. But most people think I'm a lunatic for thinking this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Beccy
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:09 PM

A funny story. A friend of mind, ex-miltary, was telling me that an acquaintance of his spoke English and German, his Italian wife spoke Italian and English. The two of them spoke all three languages with their kids. I commented, "They must be brilliant. What an advantage for them to learn 3 languages simultaneously." My friend repled, "No- they're dumb as stones. They can't converse intelligently in any of the three."

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:12 PM

I can speak french pretty well. The thing with education of learning another language in this country is that kids start at 11 with one language and then in yr8 (12yrs) they are made to learn a second so they are learning 2 foreign languages at the same time but haven't really got the basic of the first sorted. I learnt French in Yr7 and then started Russian in Yr8 and I found this hard. I might go over my french again and take it further as it has been a few years since I left school.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:15 PM

For three languages, maybe (though I have my doubts that all children in such circumstances would suffer that fate). I've never noticed a problem with kids raised bi-lingually being dumb as rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM

PS, while the story is cute, it also sounds like a joke told by a monoglot English speaker with a phobia about languages.

I have a sister-in-law who was raised speaking Polish, Russian, and French. She now speaks 5 languages, including English and Chinese, both learned when she was a young adult. Certainly puts me to damn shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:23 PM

I would also include, as part of the art/craft activities, lots of instrument making - drums, shakers etc., from things as basic as rice in a plastic bottle. There are many books on do-it-yourself if you need more ideas and you can be as ambitious as you like - right through to constructing basic stringed instruments. Then you can investigate how sounds are made - what needs to be banged, what works best with a violin bow, and, of course, use each of them to join in with your singing.
5 seems a little young to hold down chords on a guitar but why not start with a ukulele - the chord patterns are the same and the strings are gentler on little fingers. Then the transition to guitar is easy when the hands are bigger/stronger. I learnt that way, and so, apparently, did my husband.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:44 PM

The coordinator for our area'a homeschoolers is part of alarge musical family and all the kids play oldtime fiddle tunes, and they contradance, all as part of normal life. She doesn't "Mudcat," but if you want to be in touch with her via e-mail please let me know via Mudcat PM with your e-mail address.

From my own homeschooling experience (several yerars, including a home daycare-preeschool run along homeschooling lines, and active in parent groups), I can tell you that pedantry is out. It has to start from the children's interest and from them catching music from the air, and then wanting organized help when they ask for it. Other than that, using music to teach other material is a good way to go.

As a child who was treated in that fashion, I can tell you that the most useful thing I recall was curling up close with my dad to hear his records, and his tastes were varied. Over several years he taught me, one instrument at a time, how to listen to each part separately as well as hearing the sections and the whole. The more music I do, the more I realize how unique that gift was, and how valuable it was. I absorb it all when I listen, and can manipulate what was recorded in my mind to play with all kinds of ideas, and I think it's why I learn tunes so fast.

Fill the air with music, played live and recorded, and they will be drawn to it if that's where they need to go. Baroque music in partuicular will give them a strong foundation in rhythm and math.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 04:42 PM

Oh, and one of our best investments--the portable kid karaoke machines with the hand held microphones!

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Kaleea
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 02:41 AM

In 30+ years of teaching private & classroom music, I have never had a guitar student younger than 5--however that does not mean that there is no 5 yr old capable of learning. If you were to use a half size decent guitar (somewhat of a trick in & of itself!), and first teach what I call the E-Z chords, which are modified versions of the 1st to 4th strings only (the four highest pitched strings), and use standard tuning, it might work out. If one begins guitar lessons on an abnormal tuning, it is less likely that one would easily move to standard tuning on all 6 strings. If you remove the 6th & 5th strings, (then one would not strum the other strings not being fingered, which can make a horrific sound when strummed with the modified chord!) then you can use one or two (or three at the most, after getting the index & middle finger going) fingers for chords. For example, using just the 1st -4th strings, the modified G chord would be played with one finger on the 1st string in the 3rd fret. I have used this quite successfuly with the 6-7 yr olds who have very small fingers with less developed motor skills, and some handicapped kids. However, the guitar is not the only kid friendly instrument! The Mountain Dulcimer is great for smaller kids, & they make smaller versions, too. It's easy, as the motes in the scale are right in front of you (kind of like there are no "black keys"), and reading the tablature for playing melody & letting the other 2 strings drone is much easier for most kids than guitar. Also, the mandolin is a small instrument, and smaller fingers fit well. It would be taught as a melody instrument, and only later on as the motor skills develop chords can be added. The best musical instruments for the very young are ones which can be easily manipulated by little ones (as they do NOT have very well developed motor skills) such as various Orff instruments, played with mallots, especially the pentatonic ones so that there are no "wrong" notes, drums, and the so-called "rhythm" instruments mentioned above. Also, using the washboard or guiro, for example, helps a kid to keep a stead beat, and the concept of strumming an instrument to a steady beat. Do not forget that when we teach music, we must teach basic concepts of all aspects of music-melody, rhythm, playing, singing, moving to music, timbre--and use a variety of ways to help them understand these concepts. Good Luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

How about starting out with the ukulele? The finger positions are the same as guitar, you just get different chords (ie, finger a C chord, you get a G). And, it's only four strings, they are easy to press down, and it is little. They are also cheap. For about 40 USD you can get a playable one. I would think that all the skills learned would translate easily to the guitar once they are old enough to handle a bigger instrument. Al

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM

Beccy,

Don't know who all these guests are but I think your instincts are the best since you know your children. As to the argument that you shouldn't push your children, I think that there is a way to be supportive and encouraging and also insisting that there is a time to do it and not let it go. You can make it fun. I was a musical rebel, (my mother was a piano teacher) and I was made to practice and ..........have made my living at music for over 50 years and have had fun doing it. I rebelled and took up the guitar and got into folk music.

Another musical rebel was Yehudi Menuhin who was forced to practice and by his own admission decided that he hated violin and took up the harpsichord for a while. Then he went back to the violin which in turned out that he really loved and did some interesting recordings with Shankar and others. I think it all depends upon how you do it. If there is a strong negative reaction, that's one thing but kids at that age really don't know what they want and should be exposed to a lot of options. Music is one of them. Consistency and modeling are all a parent can do.

As to the two-tuning thing, I maintain that kids can do it. They don't have the hang-ups.

The wonderful thing about guitar is that it can be a social instrument. You can't lug a piano around to a party. But you can sit with a group of people and sing and share songs. It's an ideal home-schooling tool in my opinion.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Sam L
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:44 PM

I was also going to mention ukuleles, and mentioned to you on another thread Harvey Reid's third hand capos, which make an open chord but the notes on the fretboard are still in standard. There are also some decent inexpensive harmonicas for kids, hohner bluesband, but only in c or g, but which let them participate rather nicely.

   Hohner also had a pretty good nylon string around here a while back, and one I tinkered with had a pretty decent intonation. Now all I see are First Act steel strings everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeschooling Musicians
From: Beccy
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:59 PM

Monoglot, he was not. He speaks 4 languages fluently and 2 passably.