BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 01:56 AM

Peter, you write a pretty bleak picture.

Bobert: If you are sent off to some third world country, I will make it a point to pack a sack lunch for you, and I'll be on the dock waving my hanky until the ship disappears over the horizon. Farewell, I'll say, farewell to a fond foe who fought the battle well, he just fought on the wrong side.

Then I will get in my stretch limousine and ask my driver to take me back to my palatial mansion where I will engage in counting my oil stocks (primarily Bush/Iraqi Oil Company Stock), and sipping mint juleps!

Bobert, old friend (*SOB!*), I'm gonna miss ya'!
:>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:58 PM

You are already under martial law, guys, it just hasn't got to you individually yet. You are under wartime rules, including suspension of habeas corpus by reason of necessity. This began in the Cold War -- a nation has to be already mobilized for war, because there is only 15 minutes before the war begins. America only began to demobilize, before remobilizing began, with the restarting of military secrecy, expanded executive government, etc. There was a brief period after 1989 when there was a chance of demobilizing, because the threat of nuclear war disappeared, but that was lost by the Bush and Clinton administrations dithering around (for which history will not forgive them); and the new Bush administration desperately seeking to manufacture new enemies to justify missile defences and other nonsense. September 11 ended that chance: preparation for war can continue unabated, because terrorism is never ending, there are always enemies. The rear guard battle for civil liberties can go on, but it is mostly over, once war is never ending. I cannot understand why conservatives of all people refuse to see that an endless war footing is the most dangerous threat to civil liberties of all. It will end in a military dictatorship. Read your Orwell.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:12 PM

Don't worry, Dougie. You're on the "A" list of folks who get to stay in America. I'm on the "A" list of the refugees who will have to go, like anytime a third world country comes apart. Yeah, should Bush callm of democracy which I have it at about 50/50, the US will look more like a third world country than anyone can imagine.

I know you think I'm just messing here, Doug, but I am not. The US has never had such a madman at the controls. You, my friend, being one who appreciates liberty, should also have some concerns about your guy. Watch him. Listen to him. He doesn't talk like a sane person. He talks like a *mad*man. I mean, he's like mad. I don't trust mad people when then have unfettered access to our kids and grandkids....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:00 PM

When martial law is declared, you can come do your smokin' (ham that is) in Toronto, Doug.

We may be a bunch of "Dubya hatin', Castro Luvin', aetheistic, comm-o-nistic, anti-nukULAR, back bacon-eatin hosers.....but we're NICE people!

So anyway folks...thanks for keepin' this civil (for the most part) I tried to start it by being reasonably objective and not getting into calling anyone (guess who) any bad names.

I went by the Seminary again, and the anti-war sign that was torn down three days ago has NOT been replaced. Jeez, GUEST Janet, I'm gettin' paranoid again.......hope the Catholic Church puts it back up....it was up for at least ten weeks.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:22 PM

When martial law is declared, I'm gonna tell where Bobert and Nicole are hiding.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:19 PM

Danged, Nicole. Too much decaf on my part. I'll get back on the hard stuff...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 09:49 PM

Gee thanks Nicole! Now I can sleep easier tonight ;-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 09:44 PM

Tsk, tsk, Bobert. You know that Bush and his cronies are not like mortal men. Their judgement is perfect and they've never done an immoral or illegal thing in their lives. How can you even think that when martial law is declare, it wouldn't be for the best of reasons, even if they don't happen to tell us what those are.

Honest. Just ask Doug, he'll tell ya' the same thing! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 08:08 PM

It's the conditions that lead to the "unless it becomes necessary" that bothers me, Dougie. What if Junior, for instance, thought that he would have to actually give up being president? Hmmmmm? Like that might be enough to for these guys...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:56 PM

Bobert, please! When did you last suffer from some federal government official declaring martial law? Calm down! It's not going to happen! (unless it becomes necessary of course :>))

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:49 PM

Dougie:

I'm less concerned that Bush would go thru the bother of trying to repeal the 22nd Ammendment which requires 2/3's of the states ratification than I am about him pulling a play out of the Nixon/Haige playbook. Martial law is a lot easier and he has the right folks around him to pull it off. Where Cheney and Rumsey may pose the greatest tthreats to the rest of the world, John Ashcroft, John Poindexter and Tom Ridge pose the greatest danger to the survival of Jefferson's little experiement...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 06:23 PM

SHUDDER THE THOUGHT!!

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:06 PM

Since he wasn't really elected last time, surely Bush would eligible for two more terms anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:29 PM

Bobert: when GWB starts asking for a repeal of the law that allows a president to serve more than two terms, I will join you in your hand wringing. Until then, I will look forward to his re-election in 2004!

Don: yes, it certainly appears to be, doesn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 03:22 PM

Gotta admit to having my own reservations, Don, about Ashcroft. He is a fver *dogmatic* man who sheilds off his right wing control freak policies with *religion*. And I also have a fear that the Bush regime won't give the country back to the people. Yes, there is this constant fear that the Bus, Cheney, Ashcroft, Ridge and Rumsfield will declare martial law over something that they started that makes them feel justified in doing so.... and... call off the elections in '08. I don't hink they are too worried about '04 but if things are not looking too good for them, they could accelerate their little plan. They think they own the governemnt.

One thing about Clinton is that no one ever thought that he'd call off democracy by not leaving when his time was up. These guys are different. I'm not as concerned about the crapola legislation that they are going ram down America's throat's because should we ever get these people, out, clearer minds will clean up their messes just like they did after the Reagan fiasco which all but bankrupted the country.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

On the web link that Rustic Rebel posted, I checked Washington State and found nuthin'. I tend to think that the site missed a lot, because there was plenty of activity in this area. Most of what went on in Seattle consisted, not of marches and demonstrations, but neighborhood potlucks. They wanted to get all the neighbors together, including those who just passively accept Bush's line without knowing what's really going on and what's really at stake. The idea was to have, not confrontations, but reasonable discussions. This went on all over the city and I understand that the potlucks were well attended. The Seattle Times article I posted above gives a spot-check of some of the other activities around Washington State.

It looks like you're right, Bobert. The meeting I attended a few weeks ago consisted mostly of a coalition of anti-war groups, but it included a lot of people who were primarily concerned with anti-globalization, the economy, and civil rights. They all felt that the current administration in particular was hell-bent on disaster on several fronts.

And I hope you're right on the other thing. But the only apprehension I have about giving Bush his head and letting him run the country into the ditch is his and his cronies' feeding the Constitution, and particularly the Bill of Rights, through the shredder. I can't help but feel a bit creepy about the similarity of the language used in the Patriot Act, the Homeland Security Act, and the Total Information Awareness system with the internal security act that Adolf Hitler got Paul von Hindeburg to sign off on in 1933. It didn't seem like it at the time, but it did put Hitler into a position where he could grab absolute power. On this subject, a prominent national politician said, in my presence, "I'm not all that worried about Bush; it's Ashcroft who scares the hell out of me!." [I know, Doug, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" I'd rather sound an alarm and find it unnecessary than not to sound it and wind up staring out through barbed wire.]

If it weren't for all the noise (and smoke . . . and mirrors) attending war preparations, people might turn their attention toward the trashing of the economy, the steep rise in unemployment, the environmental give-aways, the pro-business/anti-everybody-else legistation, the reversal of civil and women's rights that have taken decades to accomplish, and all the other anti-Robin Hood activities that Bush and his Merry Men are engaged in.

Don Firth

Subject: Lyr Add: MAKING WAR
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:37 PM

One great thing about this is the way it cuts the legs from under the people who would try to pretend that being anti-Bushwar is anti-American.

I saw a poll saying 83% of Americans are opposed to going to war without being part of a bigger alliance. That could mean that, if we over here can only stop Blair going in - and the polling figures about doing that without UN approval are equally overwhelming - we could halt them in their tracks.

Here's a song I wrote when it looked like Clinton was going to go to war to get the Monica stories off his back. Different political games being played this time, but it's still basically true. "Making War"

There are scandals daily breaking, and the press is on his tail,
and they say that he is finished, he belongs inside a jail,
but there's still one last solution, like so many times before -
it could bring him absolution - and they call it "Making War"
Making war, Making War - no, they don't play the bugle any more
Just a bunch of turkey shooters playing a game with their computers
they can tell you what they mean by Making War,
they can tell you what they mean by Making War.

When there's a cock-up in the White House, and the piper must be paid,
Well it won't be Good Old Bill who pays to make those tricky headlines fade.
Just you wait and see the pictures as the bombers fly once more,
Count the bodies in the bunkers, when it's time for Making War.
Making war, Making War - no they don't play the bugle any war.
Just a bunch of turkey shooters playing a game with their computers,
they can tell you what they mean by Making War,
they can tell you what they mean by Making War.

Do you see that sad dictator, with his country broke and bust,
and his throne is feeling shaky, seems there's noone he can trust.
Then help comes falling from the sky, saved by the bombs once more -
for the cry is "No Surrender" when your country's Making War...
Making war, Making War - no they don't play the bugle any war.
Just a bunch of turkey shooters playing a game with their computers,
they can tell you what they mean by Making War,
they can tell you what they mean by Making War.

But we all know who pays the price, and it isn't you or me,
and it isn't Good Old Billy, with his pants back round his knees,
and it's not that sad dictator - who's a patriot once more -
it's those dead forgotten zeroes, in that soon forgotten war.
Making war, Making War - no they don't play the bugle any war.
Just a bunch of turkey shooters playing a game with their computers,
they can tell you what they mean by Making War,
they can tell you what they mean by Making War

But out in the city park,
they're burning bodies in the dark.
And in the shelters that we shattered
the dying dead are gathered.
In the dark they lie there screaming
- and who dares to sleep for dreaming -
they can tell you what is meant by making war,
they can tell you what is meant by making war.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:32 PM

I think it was great to see so many people marching. We as a society do not get enough exercise, and marching is a good way to get it!

I thought coverage by the media was pretty good myself.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

I agree, GUEST. This movement is starting to look a lot when the Civil Rights movement joined up with the antiwar movement back in the 60's. That scared the crap out of Boss Hog and so Boss hog had the two most influential folks in that movement snuffed out: Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr.

Yeah, coalitions do scare the ruling class and looks as if Bush and Co. have awakened a sleeping giant. We have anit-globalization folks, and anti-war folks hooking up and it looks very much like Bush's mis-step on Affirmative Action is going to bring the Civil Rights folks in and his piss-poor economic stimulus package, even if it doesn't pass, will get many of the labor folk on board. When that happens, you can but a fork in Bush, 'cause he'll be done!

Bush may one day be thought of as the best thing that ever happened to the US because of the total wrongness of Boss Hog's vision for America. So, like I've said before. Bring it on, Junior. Bring it on!

Power to the People.... Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM

As far as demonstrations go, it was the most effective I've ever seen, because of it's worldwide coordination, and the sheer numbers of people involved internationally. The world hasn't really seen anything like this since the no-nukes days.

We have the anti-globalisation movement to thank for that, as they are the behind the scenes activists who are organizing these events worldwide.

The impact of this new global reality is so far reaching, most people can't quite envision the importance of these events. Even if the international peace movement doesn't stop the US from attacking Iraq, it will have raised enough people's awareness of what we are truly fighting, that it will transform many, many lives and take the movement to a whole new level globally. Which is the more important thing anyway. It isn't like if we win this one, the evil global empire will disappear and go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Willie-O
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM

I joined the march in Ottawa, also about 3,000 strong (bonjour Simon-Pierre! comment ca va?) with my wife and daughter. First demo I've turned out to in a long time.

Public response was VERY positive. Lots of honking and waving. I heard not a hoot or catcall. Small wonder, on a day the National Post even admits that 85% of Canadians are opposed to the idea of Canada joining the U.S. in a non-UN-sponsored military adventure.

A nattily dressed older gentleman stepped outside of a pub on Rideau street and serenaded us with the Highland pipes, to the great delight of the marchers. I played a bit of whistle.

No arrests, no unpleasantness, really a great day around the world for showing the colours. Effective? We'll see.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM

Rustic,

I went to Washingtonpost.com and looked for the picture they had on their front page but didn't see it. I'm going to have a color copy made for framing, however, for my son and maybe one for me. You mi9ght be better with finding stuff on the pudder but so if ya find a picture that capture may a thousand folks with maybe 200 or 300 somewhat recognizable, thay's the one we're in. If ya' find it, just look over on the left side a little more than half way down and find a guy with a western style hat. Thats me and my sone is in the skull cap to the left.

I still can't get over the number of folks that were there considering it was around 15 degrees when the rally started and didn't get above 23 degrees all day.

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:48 AM

peace no war
This place lists places from all around US and the globe that rallied yesterday(and today) It doesn't show anything from MN, but there was small protests in Mpls, and at the university. More than 1000 people went in buses over to Washington.
Bobert-WAY TO GO! can we see your picture somewhere on the web?
Peace, Rustic(flying my freak flag, chanting- No War, No War, No War)

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: simon-pierre
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:34 AM

Juat to answer the initial question: we were about 3000 in Québec city (and it was *cold*!!) and I hope the movement will grow.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: mmm1a
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:33 AM

Impeachment Yeah sounds like a good idea but then we would have
Chenny , not an improvement.
                   mmm

has anyone thawed out yet? I think I'm getting the feeling back in my toes :)

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST,Ruth
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:30 AM

at least 100,000 in San Francisco yesterday. The river of desenting faces flowed down Market Street for hours and hours. I was with a group of 9 and it was all we could do to stay together. Good energy, but a serious crowd. It made front page with good coverage in home town Stockton CA, for that I gave thanks. (Bush's threat of the day made 4th page). Did the Bushies listen? Well they're not likely too if we don't keep talking. But you can be sure international communities around the world were taking notice. Keep your signs out, your drums next to the door, and brush up on resistance songs!

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: mack/misophist
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:23 AM

May I respectfully request and suggest that Toronto, Washington DC, and San Francisco are rotten places to have peace marches. The voters on the other side of the issue will think 'Viet Nam' and ignore the whole thing. To have an influence, the marches need to be in Houston, Detroit, Yellow Knife, Manchester, and Chaumont. I hate to sound like a bolshevick, but, without the workers, the whole thing goes nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:12 AM

I wish, mmm. From the SF Chronicle:
"Bush spent the weekend at the presidential retreat at Camp David. But White House spokesman Ari Fleischer made clear last week that the president does not see the growing protests as evidence that support is fading for his policy toward Iraq."

What would? Impeachment?

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: mmm1a
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:10 PM

I went to Fort Wayne, In Sat with my 2 daughters (9 and 20 ),it was
freezing and the wind made it even worse.There was 278 people there
and if you asked me if I would do again, my answer would be YES. except maybe wear 3 layers instead of 2. I have 5 sons 4 daughters, 2 granddaughters and 6 grandsons, It is time for the presedent to listen to the people , We don't want this war.
                               mmm

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:58 PM

"Poverty, racism and war---the REAL axis of evil" Barbara Lee, US Representative from California. Amen

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 07:40 PM

I agree, Guest, that hearing more from the Iraqi's themselves would be very helpful. Unfortunately, the only ones we are likely to hear from are the dissidents who are living outside Iraq now. While their opinions are valid, they are not necessarily indicative of either the majority opinion or the reality of the situation today. Usually, when the press decides to talk to the "real people," they pick the most unhappy and vocal emigrants they can and make a big deal out of how much they hate their former country. Well, duh!

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:55 PM

AMAZING! We just drove by the Seminary (on the way to visit friends) and the cloth sign saying "NO WAR IN IRAQ" was ripped to shreds. It wasn't the wind, cuz a second sign facing the other way was also slashed. Yesterday it was fully intact.

GUEST Janet Ryan, I think you're right about me being overly cynical here regarding the Church (the Catholic Church at least)....I've done some thinking AND reading over the last hour and your post is spot on. Obviously, one of my blind spots is what I percieve as the general Eclesiastical behaviour over the years......BUT one of the things I'm starting to notice here is that VERY divergent groups may well be coming together...at that HAS to be good.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:39 PM

Don, what I am saying is we aren't hearing from the Iraqi people (those living in exile, or in Iraq) themselves, in either the mainstream or alternative media. That means we are missing a crucial link in the debate, because we have no idea what the debates are over the best way to proceed regarding the current murderous regime of the Ba'ath party.

Not trying to start a war here. Just saying, it would be helpful to have Iraqis involved in the debate about what can realistically be achieved, and how it will happen in their country.

One thing we do all agree on though. The US attacking Iraq is NOT going to help the Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:13 PM

I for one will be listening to as much as I can stand of the State of the Union address on January 28. (I have a problem with bush's voice and mannerisms, not to mention his content.) Let me say it would not astonish me if he said something on the order of: At this moment, our boys are at war... Rah, rah, rah...

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:12 PM

GUEST, I'm a bit puzzled that you say that those involved in the anti-war movement are not concerned with the Iraqi people. It seems to me that it's one of the major reasons for the whole thing.

If you're thinking in terms of regime change in Iraq, then I can't see that going to war with the idea of deposing Hussein is hardly the best way. Among other things, it could solidify the support of a lot of Iraqi citizens behind him, whether they like him or not. E.g., "Sure, he's a son-of-a-bitch, but he's our son-of-a-bitch, and where the hell do you Americans get off trying to tell us how to run our country?" From what I've heard, there is a lot of that kind of feeling in Iraq already.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:03 PM

Yep, even the Police Chief Ramsey couldn't discount the 500,000 claim for the Washington Demonstartion. The demonstartion in October in D.C. was estimated at the time by the police to be 100,000 at best but later they admitted to 200,000 and yesterday's event was well over twice that size.

I attended the Moritorium in the early 70's against the Vietnem War and that was 500,000 and this one was as large.

Just a side note. I picked up the Sunday Wsahington Post while I was out a while ago and on the front page is a poicture of part of the demonstrators and guess what?

*THE BOBERT IS ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE WASHINGTON POST!!!!*

Yep, on the left side just a little under half way down there is the Bobert in the western style hat. Just to the left (my right) is my 17 year old son, Ben...

Danged!

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM

Yes/no. Summer is coming to Iraq -- we need but delay the attack for another month or so beyond it's planned date and it will put a major kink in any military plans to deal with the desert heat. Once the summer really sets in, the war plans will have to be delayed until end of 2003, and Bush will have to sell it all over again.

Of course, we could attack anyway in the summer heat. Or attack in February as planned. The first scenario would lose Dubya much of his support within the military; the second would virtually guarentee a one term presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 04:09 PM

The problem with this sad state of affairs caused by the Bush administration in the US, is the Iraqi people barely figure into the debate, even within the peace movement. No one is talking, after all, how to get rid of the single party regime in Iraq. With over 3.5 million Iraqis now living in exile, it would certainly help if the Iraqi dissenters, were being listened to, but they aren't. Not by the general American public, the Bush administration, or most leftist activists involved in the anti-war movement right now. Because to discuss it would divide the movement itself, just as it did during Gulf War I.

Still, it is tremendously encouraging, the numbers that are coming out to protest. But I for one suffer no illusions about the effect it is going to have on administration policies, at least in the short term. A year from now, the numbers of people the Left can get in the streets will matter much more. But IMO, right now no tens or hundreds of thousands of people marching, demonstrating, and rallying against the war will stop Bush from attacking Iraq. Not unless the current regime falls or goes into exile.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:55 PM

Somewhere between 50 and 200 thousand in SF yesterday. The police said 50,000, but I've been in 50,000 crowds and this one seemed much larger than that. It was nice seeing so many people who have different backgrounds and political views coming out to speak against a "pre-emptive" war that will kill hundred of thousands for no apparent reason. First is was the war to end all wars, which didn't work, and now we're supposed to buy a war to PREVENT all war. LOL.

There were some counter-protesters. Unfortunately, most of them were really there just spoiling for a fight and trying to stir something up. I didn't see any scuffles break out. Those that were there for more legitimate reasons (i.e. free speech) seemed to feel we should support our troops -- but I don't call sending our boys in uniform to die "supporting" them.

There were NO arrests and NO property destroyed, not even accidentally. Ah, the power of peaceful protest!

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM

Here is a list of some signage from the San Fran demo, per The Progressive's website today:

Home-made signs far outnumbered the pre-fab.

Here were some of my favorites: "Dude, Where's My War?" (with a goofy depiction of Bush on the poster)

"Stop Mad Cowboy Disease"

"W is for Warmonger"

"Axis of Evil: Exxon/Mobil"

"No War for SUVs" (the anti-SUV sentiment was widespread, and protesters left signs on SUVs that they passed along the route)

"Solar Not Murder"

"Help! I'm Dying for Oil"

"The Price of Blood: $32 a gallon"

"Fighting for Peace is Like Fucking for Virginity"

"Brains Not Bombs"

"Bongs Not Bombs"

"Unfuck the World"

"We Refuse to Be Enemies"

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:29 PM

Last night, the television news was reporting that the Washington, D.C. demonstration consisted of about 30,000 people. But it turns out that the 30,000 they were speaking of was a group that marched to the Washington Navy Yard and did not include an overall figure for the number of people there. Immediately following was yet another story on the ominous discovery in Iraq of the empty chemical rocket warheads. As a one-time news director in a radio station, I am aware of how one can modify the perception of selected news stories by sequencing them a certain way, and this struck me as a fairly obvious effort to diddle the viewers' response to the peace demonstrations. Side point:—even the Department of Defense does not regard an empty warhead as a "warhead."

The following is a somewhat condensed version of the story carried by this morning's Seattle Times:

        The largest concentration of anti-war demonstrators since the Vietnam War converged on Washington, D.C., yesterday, braving bitter cold in thunderous numbers and assembling in the shadow of the Capitol dome to voice opposition to a U.S. military strike against Iraq.
        Similar rallies were held around the world, including one that drew tens of thousands to San Francisco's waterfront.
        Organizers of the demonstration, the activist coalition International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism), said the protest was larger than one they sponsored in Washington in October. District of Columbia police officials suggested then that about 100,000 attended, and although some agreed, organizers since have put the number closer to 200,000.
        This time, organizers said, the turnout was 500,000. Police Chief Charles Ramsey would not provide an estimate but said it was bigger than in October. "It's one of the biggest ones we've had, certainly in recent times," he said.
        "I know everyone is skittish about saying a number," said U.S. Capitol Police Chief Terrance Gainer. "But this was big. An impressive number."
        Two hours into the Washington march, swarms of demonstrators, including actor Martin Sheen and singer Joan Baez, assembled along the San Francisco waterfront heading downtown. That rally drew tens of thousands.
        An estimated 20,000 marched through downtown Portland. In Tampa, Fla., protesters rallied outside the gates of MacDill Air Force Base. Other events were held overseas in cities including Tokyo, Paris, Moscow and Cairo, Egypt. The Tokyo rally drew an estimated 5,000 protesters.
        In Western Washington, scores of "potlucks for peace" were held. More than 100 residents of Seattle's Beacon Hill gathered at Stevens Place Park for fried chicken, pasta salad and a chance to chat with neighbors about the prospect of war.
        "I want to have a voice," Highland Park Elementary School kindergarten teacher Kristin Sampson said. "I believe we have to stop being the police of the world."
        State Rep. Velma Veloria, a Democrat from Beacon Hill, shouted through a bullhorn that Washington state can't afford to go to war. "I know this war is going to be costly," Veloria said. "Tell them no to war in Iraq; tell them we want peace everlasting."
        Because a war would be expected to cost $100 billion, Veloria said, Washington's share would be about $2 billion. That would be enough to double the state's budget deficit, she noted.
        In rural Whatcom County, Debi Covert-Bowlds hoped her potluck would be a good way for local families to get together and really learn about Iraq.
        Covert-Bowlds, who lives in Ferndale, expected about 12 families from Birch Bay, Lynden and Ferndale to attend the potluck at her house. She said rural Whatcom County doesn't offer as many resources as Bellingham for people who want to learn about American relations with Iraq.
        "The anti-war movement is now at a whole new level," said Tony Murphy, a spokesman for International ANSWER, formed three days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks as a response to the Bush administration's war on terrorism at home and abroad.
        "Now we're talking about a force that can really stop the war. It's not just a hopeful attitude. It's a real sense that it's possible."
        The demonstration drew people of all walks of life, from both coasts and all points in between, as scores of college students, 30-something families and senior citizens arrived by charter bus, car caravan, plane, train and — in the case of one Iowa State University student — foot.
        Many said they feared war with Iraq would make Americans targets of further terrorist attacks.
        "We've always been the good guys, and now we're going to be the bad guys," said Robert Dickson, 52, who publishes two weekly newspapers in Fayetteville, N.C., and left home at 4:30 a.m. for the drive to Washington.
        "The sun had really helped," said Joanne Catizzi, 51, a Baltimore teacher. "I was really afraid I was going to freeze my butt off." But Shelby Berkowitz, 32, a graduate student from Lansing, Mich., asked, "What's the suffering from standing out in the cold compared to the suffering inflicted by U.S. policies in the world?"

Compiled from The Washington Post, Seattle Times staff reporter Jennifer Sullivan, Knight Ridder Newspapers, The New York Times and The Associated Press.
Copyright © 2003 The Seattle Times Company

I think it's happenin', folks. Just for kicks, pull up google and type in "Impeach Bush" and see what comes up. Interesting!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

The anti-war movement is light years ahead of of the politicians, pundits, and media.

So much of the opposition to the war is going unreported, and the spin being controlled by the White House.

A few facts: almost every single one of the minority members of the US House & Senate voted against the war last October. The Senate vote sharply divided Democrats, with 29 voting for the measure and 21 against. All Republicans except Sen. Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island voted for passage.

In the House, 133 members, including 6 Republicans, voted against the war, or roughly 65% of the Democrats went against their own leader, to vote against the war.

This drive to war by the Bush administration is really dividing the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

Bobert was in Washington, said there was close to 400,000. We watched a lot of it on CPSAN and I finally felt some pride and not so lonesome as a peace-loving American.

There were some great linsk this morning on google news, esp. to the Boston Globe with links to many other articles about it. Sorry I don't have time to look for the link at the mo'.

I am very PO'd at NPR, not a damn word about it on this morning's Weekend Edition news progam, nor on their regular top-of-the-hour news!!

Thanks for starting this one, Rick. Goodonya, PeterT and Alice!

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:49 PM

daylia, the march held in Washington DC was the US peace movement's celebration of Martin Luther King's nonviolence principles, and his (rather late in the game) stand against the Vietnam War. That is one of the reasons why this weekend was chosen for the worldwide protests. That, and the fact that in the US, it is a holiday weekend. We have MLK's birthday off tomorrow, so those who travelled to Washington had an extra day to get home before going back to work.

It was tremendously heartening to see so many African American leaders--especially the Congressional Black Caucus, coming out so strongly against the war, and being so visible in the early stages of this particular anti-war movement.

Less heartening--Patti Smith's singing.

CSPAN carried the DC demo & rally live.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Alice
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:22 PM

Even in my small town there was a peace rally with a permit to march down Main Street to the Courthouse.

---------

   January 19, 2003
                           Marching for peace: Demonstrators hold peacful rally in
                           Bozeman

                           By KAYLEY MENDENHALL Chronicle Staff Writer

                           Stretching across Main Street and nearly the length of a Bozeman city block, demonstrators
                           marched Saturday afternoon to the music of peace.

                           They chanted peaceful messages and sang peaceful songs, while carrying signs denouncing
                           war against Iraq.

                           Small children rode on their parents backs, senior citizens kept pace with the slow-moving
                           crowd and even dogs dressed to show support. One dog sported a white T-shirt with the
                           words, "Pooch for peace," written in black marker on the side.

                           "All across America in towns just like Bozeman and
                           in big cities, people are rallying to say no to the war
                           in Iraq," said Rev. Denise Rogers as she kicked off
                           the march in the Soroptomist Park on Main Street and
                           Rouse Avenue.

                           Organizers estimated 750 people gave up skiing and
                           other weekend activities on a clear, sunny day to
                           participate in Saturday's event. Diners at MacKenzie
                           River Pizza Co. gazed out the window at the crowd
                           and Ona Meyer's customers at Charlie's restaurant
                           left their tables to watch from an outside corner.

                           "All my customers are watching," said Meyers, who pulled up a seat on the bricks outside the
                           restaurant. "I wanted to hear it instead of just seeing it."

                           Most onlookers seemed to support the message as much as those proclaiming it. Stanley
                           Anderson was shopping downtown with his family when they ran into the peace march.

                           "I think it's great," he said. "The American people have to speak their mind."

                           The rally was scheduled in conjunction with peace rallies around the world from Washington,
                           D.C. and San Francisco to Paris, Tokyo and Cairo. Many also connected the rally to the upcoming
                           Martin Luther King holiday and said the timing was appropriate.

                           "Monday is the national holiday of Dr. Martin Luther King," Rogers announced. "We commemorate
                           his life by having this rally. He would be here if he were alive today."

                           Speakers emphasized their support of ground troops while expressing disgust for an
                           "unnecessary" war. As the marchers traveled from Rouse to Grand Avenue, ending with a
                           gathering at the Gallatin County Courthouse, the crowd remained peaceful.

                           Aaron Henderson held a sign reading, "I support the military action and our troops," but he was
                           the only person present that was obviously in favor of going to war.

                           "Until we have research for alternative fuels ... we are going to have wars over oil," said
                           Henderson, 27, a former member of the U.S. Army and creator of the sign.

                           Participants in the march strongly disagreed. Several carried signs reading, "No blood for oil,"
                           and "Drop Bush, not bombs."

                           Melissa Blessing, who participated in the march with her two young daughters, said she does
                           not want to see bloodshed, body bags and suffering in Iraq for any reason, especially oil.

                           Her 6-year-old daughter Sara, echoed Blessing's sentiments.

                           "I hate war," Sara said. "Because I don't like killing."

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:22 PM

I saw clips on the evening news of Peace marches seemingly everywhere yesterday - from the thousands marching in Washington DC to Europe and Vancouver as well as Toronto! Most, most encouraging!! And I was just sitting here, blissfully unaware of all that, working on new Peace songs and making peaceful (well, kinda peaceful!) posts on Mudcat ... oh well ... peace to all anyway! And keep those peaceful anthems comin!

Tomorrow's Martin Luther King Jr. Day too, lest we forget here in the 'Great White North'...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM

Washington, DC:


Tens of thousands rallied in the capital in an
emphatic dissent against preparations for war in Iraq, voicing a
cry - ``No blood for oil'' - heard in demonstrations around the
world.

A rally in the shadows of Washington's political and military
institutions anchored dozens of smaller protests throughout Asia,
Europe, the Middle East and the United States on Saturday. In
Washington, police said 30,000 marched through the streets, part of
a much larger crowd that packed the east end of the National Mall
and spilled onto the Capitol grounds.

``We stand here today, a new generation of anti-war activists,''
Peta Lindsay from International Answer, the main organizers,
exhorted the spirited masses in a biting cold. ``This is just
beginning. We will stop this war.''

Police reported few arrests in the rally, which preceded the
march past Marine barracks to the Washington Navy Yard.

``We don't want this war and we don't want a government that
wants this war,'' said Brenda Stokely, a New York City labor
activist. A sign branded America, not Iraq, a ``Rogue Nation.''
Another said, ``Disarm Bush.''

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM

And finally, the mainstream media caught on (although it is a slow news weekend in Washington DC, because it is a holiday weekend and Congress isn't in session). We'll see how they do with it, considering this was an extremely well coordinated worldwide protest. For me, the most heartening aspect of it was the peace activists in Pakistan claiming the streets for peace, in opposition to the supporters of the US and the supporters of Muslim fundamentalism. It was just Pakistani peace folks. Very cool.

As to the Catholic Church, I think your cynicism is misplaced Rick. The social justice movement in the church has always been at the front of the line in the peace movement, and it has been instrumental in the organizing against the war in Iraq, because it is largely the Catholic church ladies (of all ages, not just the blue haired ones) who have continued marching and demonstrating against Iraq sanctions since the first Gulf War. They never let up. The hierarchy rarely supports the Catholic Worker/social justice movement, but the opposition to the war buildup is so widespread among Catholics right now, even the pope came out in opposition to it last week.

But the seachange really occurred last September, when the Bush administration began it's push towards war in earnest. There was already a considereable grassroots movement in place by then, as organizers on the left saw a tremendous surge in membership and interest from people in the wake of 9/11. Hundreds of people began pouring into the offices of grassroots peace and justice organizations after 9/11. Many people might find that hard to believe, but then many people find it hard to believe a definite majority (which isn't waffling) of the US electorate is opposed to this war, and the numbers are growing all the time. Especially among military families. We saw 3 boys off at Christmas who will likely be shipped out within the coming 6 weeks. And nobody knows why.

But everyone knows this president select isn't going to back down. That is the quandry here. The people of the US are not behind this president going to war with Iraq, yet we also know that he is obsessed with doing that, no matter what the cost, whether there is justification for doing so or not, and whether he has to go it alone or not. This president is going to attack Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM

IT WAS COLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (but fun!) yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Here is San Diego ten thousand men left port last week, Rick, bound for the Fertile Crecent, kissing infants and wives goodbye on the piers. If ever there was a time for anti-war sentiment, it is now.

It's funny -- in WW 1 AND WW2, the US dragged its feet, not wanting to move its sorry collective ass into war if it could possibly be avoided. This strikes me as a sane principle, although I think we waited much too long to come to England's aid.    Now. for the first time in history, I think, we are doing massive deployments well in advance of any war being declared by Congress. Of course this is the first time we let the White House be invaded by subliterates. too. Maybe there's some sort of connection there...

A

Subject: BS: Over 10,000 March For Peace in Toronto!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:19 PM

This has really blown me away. And....it is very reminiscent of sixties and seventies anti-Vietnam protests. generally speaking, marches against homelesness, or other such causes rarely muster more than a thousand people in Toronto. This is a VERY wealthy city, and the status quo, hasn't changed much in the last thirty years. Toronto residents generally seem to feel that the dark side of our city is simply an abberation 'mongst the comfort.

Apparently not when it comes to saying how they feel about the up-coming war with Iraq.

About a mile from us (along Kingston Road) is a HUGE Catholic Seminary, complete with schools, hundreds of acres of well-manicured lawns (I've never seen ONE human being ON the lawns) and needless to say Mr. cynic here has gotten quite a bit of comedy material related to what may be going on INSIDE the buildings.

But........The BIG sign outside one of the Catholic schools that says "NO WAR WITH IRAQ", has really tempered my cynicism. Truthfully I would have thought the Cardinals and 'Underpopes' would have had it removed immediately. They haven't.

Something has definitely changed in the last three or four days....this is NOT a 'hippy protest', it has BECOME the mainstream. I think if I were in ANY Government, I'd start taking notice.

Were there any major demonstrations (pro war in Iraq, as well) in your town? Do you also get the feeling that the "anti-war" sentiment is about to really escalate? Are folks THAT scared?

Rick (gee, my first political thread in a longggg while)