Gaelic Language Bill

Subject: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Strupag
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:17 PM

There is a proposed bill going through the Scottish Parliament to give secure status to the gaelic language. This in effect would give the gaelic language the same status as english in all legal and civic matters.
It might seem reasonable to the average mudcatter, but the bill, rather than having support, has had disapproval from the race realtions organisation(CRE), COSLA( the group which has the remit to support local Government) and by Mike Watson, the minister who has Gaelic in his portfolio.
Is this an example of "Liberate the world but not the one in my own back yard"
I am not a fluent Gaelic speaker but learning fast. Gaelic was the first language of both my grandparents - as far apart from south Kintyre to nothern Easter Ross. My parents both had gaelic in childhood but the state education system made sure that it was almost impossible to be passed on to their children.
The arguments against Gaelic are the predictable economic ones. A new one is that we now often hear is, that we should be teaching languages like Urdu to repreasent the demographics of modern Scotland.
This is almost a gauntlet to force those in favour of the furtherance of Gaelic to play a racist card. I'm very proud to say that this slimy bait has never been bitten. In contrast we have people like Ali Absaai who is an extremely popular broadcaster taking up the cause and being a stallward supporter of the language.
I welcome the views from the big wide world of mudcatters!

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From:
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:23 PM

As a Gaelic learner for the past 12 years, I hope it comes to pass. It looks highly unlikely that a similar bill will get into the NS Legislature!

Beannachd leibh!

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:38 PM

Why are they ashamed of their historic language? Also, take a look at what is happening in Ireland vis-a-vis their language....

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:22 PM

Here on Cape breton Island ,(the most western Hebride ) there is also an ongoing struggle to preserve the Gaelic. Most of the people who speak it as a first language are growing old and are passing on. It has suffered in the past from government neglect and often intentional discouragement. As a tourist draw, the government has always been there to milk the culture but has been reluctant to feed the cow.
However, there is a growing interest here now and younger people are learning the tongue of their grandparents.
Perhaps all is not yet lost!
Cum suas e !
          Slainte,
            Sandy

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From:
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM

Rapaire, some of it seems to be that very feeling, but a lot of it comes from the arrival of other people who are not of Gaelic stock who now live in many parts of Scotland.

I agree Sandy, there is now a lot of interest in learning the language. Hopefully it will be enough to overcome the inertia. We have to keep it up.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:57 PM

We have had the Welsh Language Act here in Wales for some years now.

Frankley if I wish to speak in with a derelict tounge, designed only to give employment to other wise unemployable social science graduates I will speak Afrikaans, and learn Latin.

Interesting facts :-

1/. Twice as many books in Urdu are borrowed from the Cardiff Public Libuaries, as are books in Welsh.

2/. SWEB, the South Wales Electricity Board, at great expense, altered thier billing system to send out accounts in Welsh. So far 7 people out of 2 million have requested bills in Welsh.

3/. Again at great public expense Cardiff City have gone bi-lingual,
My mole ( A Mudcatter) in Housing benefit department informs me that they have had ONE request for a claim for benefit to be dealt with in Welsh ! But plenty of requests for forms in Brail, Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic etc.

Gareth - Your tame Welsh man with the Betteshanger Accent.

Those Catters who don't comprehend what and why the Betteshanger Accent is are invited to PM me.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:12 PM

Urdu is a language with many millions of speakers. It is hardly likely to die out as a language because of anything that happens in Scotland. But that is not true of Scots Gaelic.

Anyone who has ever tried to translate a song or a poem will know that every language has a unique way of seeing the world. A lost language means that this is lost for ever, and that is one reason why it matters.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Strupag
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:34 PM

Thanks to Gareth who I suppose will help my cause.

I can only quote Brian Wilson, Minister of something in the Brit Parliament,
We would be fools to loose our langugae now.

And as for Garath, Thanks for your support! I'm sure it will help oour cause!
I remember once when I was working down there and travelling home, I stopped outside a playground, I went to a local call box and called home. Outside was the noise of kids playing - but the were all speaking in Welsh.
Reluctantly I had to ask directions in English. The boy could have not been more helpful. He was interested, but not overly due fascinated about Scots Gaelic. He was just a Welsh lad.

Garath, yuor stats can be questioned! W. T. S.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:42 PM

Questioned - But not denied !

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Strupag
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:16 PM

Gareth,
Try giving statistics for about 40 years ago and I'm sure that you will find that the Welsh language was systematically focused for destroyal.
The UK establshment paid Millions of pounds to do so. I'm sure every native Gaelic, Welsh or Manx speaker over the age of 70 will give a similar harrowing tale of how their (our) language was almost forced out of existance.
Our aim is for survival and revival of our indigenous languages. Is that such a big threat?

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:37 PM

Systematically focused for destroyal? I no longer think so, though there was a time when I did. It's perfectly true, of course, that minority culture is always inconvenient for centralised bureaucracy, and will tend to be disregarded, but that doesn't imply any dark plot to exterminate either Welsh or Scottish Gaelic. It's undeniable, of course, that the use of both languages was actively discouraged (often accompanied by small but humiliating punishments) in schools until not so very long ago; this, however, seems to have been in most cases a well-meant, if misguided, attempt by teachers to equip their pupils for life in the big world, where a monoglot Welsh or Gaelic speaker would have limited employment opportunities, and almost no chance of advancement. It was never official policy. It's only relatively recently that educationalists have understood that children can very easily be raised to be bilingual; nowadays it's positively encouraged.

For myself, I think that Gaelic should certainly be accorded a proper official status in Scotland, as Welsh is in Wales; though we should remember that it has never been the language of the whole country, as some people imagine. It's inevitable, though, that there will be trouble from some who have no grasp either of the historical background or of the quite different state of the languages of more recent immigrant groups; Urdu has already been mentioned, but Italian is another.

These languages belong to ethnic groups which have not long been present in the country, and so remain relatively discrete, and have so far retained their cultures relatively intact, though each successive generation assimilates further. It usually isn't until the third generation that children can grow up ignorant of the language of their grandparents.

To suggest that Urdu (or any other language) should be accorded official "second language" status along with Gaelic is fatuous and stupid, and, as has already been pointed out, does not appear to be the wish of speakers of "recently arrived" languages; regrettably, however, it is a common attitude among "arts" administrators (almost invariably monoglot English speakers, ironically), who control much of the state funding allocated to such things. In England, it can be quite hazardous to mention "English Tradition" to an arts administrator (though there are, of course, honourable exceptions) as they will tend to panic and imagine some racist intent implied by the mere use of the term. Evidently the same problem exists also in Scotland. The problem, though, is not that such people are anti-Gaelic, but that they are well-meaning idiots.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Strupag
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 07:05 AM

Malcolm, I agree with most of what you say, but I should have stuck to Gaelic. I am convinced that the language was focused for destroyal untill a stage was reached where the decline was such that it was impossible to revive without massive recources.
By giving, welcome, but insufficient support, is still a way of watching the language die.
We already have the example of this in Sandy's part of the globe Cape Breton, a place where Scottish identity is very strong and the music thrives but the language is now down to less than a hundred fluent speakers (I heard this statistic being mentioned on CBC Sydney on the net)
One other small point where I disagree is that there are a lot of monoglots who are anti-Gaelic. Any radio discussion on the subject brings out a frightening raw hostility.
Incidently there was a programme on BBC Radio Scotland on the subject which is well worth a listen. It's still available on the BBC Radio Scotland website. To hear it, go to the website and choose the "Listen again" option and it is the Lesley Riddoch Wednesday program. you can "fast forward" the programme until about half way through when the gaelic bill discussion starts. It does cut out a bit prematurely though.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 07:15 PM

educationalists have understood that children can very easily be raised to be bilingual; nowadays it's positively encouraged.

Who was the UK politician who recently made headlines by publicly lamenting the existence of homes where the first language wasn't English?   No, it wasn't Kim Howells either, he's not the only one who says daft things.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:10 PM

I'm 45 years old, I'm Irish and I'm from the generation who, literally had Irish beaten into us. We hated the language and all the bastards who tried to shove it down our throats and forgot it the day we left school. Having said that, I regret that I only have a few words of the language today. I don't have the answers, but I do know that compulsion does not work. Nor, unfortunately does encouragement as practiced in Ireland anyway. The number of first language speakers has been halved to 20000 people in the past 20(?) years. The new generation unfortunately, would rather watch MTV and Ricky fucking Lake than learn what is actually a beautiful language. So here's to those who keep the flag flying without resorting to facisism when it comes to teaching others.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:00 PM

Actually discouragement probably works better. If there were people around trying to penalise people for speaking Irish, it'd very lkkely be flourishing.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:38 PM

I am told, Kevin, that that is precisely why there is more Irish spoken in the North than the South. Could anyone from the area comment?

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:41 AM

I live in N Ireland and I don't think it's fair to say that there are more Irish speakers in the north than in the south. I know it isn't the evidence from the census. What we do have in the north is a grassroots enthusiasm in some areas - such as Belfast, Ballycastle, Derry, Armagh - which is lacking when the state runs the show. But even in the republic of Ireland the Irish-medium radio and tv stations got their original impetus from language activists and the recent upsurge in Irish-medium schools outside the Gaeltacht areas was driven by parents, not government officials. And in the north, Irish speakers are glad that Irish is no longer banned from BBC N Ireland (on the contrary, there is a half hour Irish-medium programme on most evenings) and that the language got recognition under the Good Friday Agreement (and UK acceptance of EU accords on lesser used languages) with more funding available for Irish medium education and media, and legalisation of bi-lingual street signs. There is still a big sectarian divide in support for the [indigenous] language. DUP politician Gregory Campbell (a Gaelic surname) recently made an ignorant statement that he could only accept the language in the context of a "foreign language".

In the Republic, there are many non-native speakers who are very fluent and literate in Irish. Just about all native speakers are literate because there is Irish-medium education in Gaeltacht areas, at least at primary level. And all those people who didn't do so well in Irish at school know more than they think they do ... as I have found with my school French, the difference being that even mediocre French is useful when one travels. Some improvements are being made in the teaching of Irish, and a lot more could be done. Personally, I think the emphasis should be at primary school level and conversational ability. Specialist teachers might be preferable to having all primary teachers responsible for teaching Irish. I don't know whether Irish should be compulsory at secondary level ... at least there is a need for more practical language use and I don't think language learners should have to do a lot of literary criticism if they aren't interested in it. (This last comment is based mostly on my experience of "A" level Irish in the north and higher level courses in Scots Gaelic. I got more out of writing up minutes of meetings in Gaelic than out of discussing literary devices of short stories - when I 'simply' wanted to learn colloquial language from the stories.)

The debate in Scotland isn't about compulsory Gaelic teaching. But if not enough people have training in the language, it is difficult to provide legal and state services through the medium of Gaelic. Language activists in Ireland complain that in practice they can't get service through the medium of Irish, no matter what it says on paper. A familiar experience is writing a letter in Irish to a state body and getting a reply in English.

yes, providing such services will provide jobs for Gaelic speakers - what's wrong with that? It strengthens the commitment to the language among native speakers and gives a further incentive to others to learn the language? These aren't only jobs for the people with PhDs; the school I work in advertised for an Irish-speaking caretaker and bus driver.

It has been pointed out that Gaelic was never the language of all of Scotland. It was, however, the language of a large swathe of the country from Ayrshire to Sutherland and if I remember correctly, even parts of Perthshire. It is certainly important to the national heritage. But I do wonder if in Scotland the language movement wouldn't be best off concentrating on improving the status of Gaelic in the Highlands and Islands. Good for the local economy, less of an argument about privileging Gaelic above other lesser used languages, and addressing the major challenge of retaining Gaelic as a FIRST language. Admittedly, this doesn't seem to be a popular idea in language circles, as Glasgow and Edinburgh have enthusiastic groups of language learners and also numbers of native speakers who have emigrated from the Western Isles.

terribly complex subject and I'm just writing "off the top of my head", apologies for being long-winded

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:53 AM

Exactly what I was hoping for, friend Philippa. I have heard a number of Irish ex-pats, mostly from the north make this comment.   I wondered how much truth there was to it, and you have given me a well thought out answer.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM

Gareth:
Your stats may be questioned! (but not denied?). However, they are based on the eusual English cultural imperialism.

"1/. Twice as many books in Urdu are borrowed from the Cardiff Public Libuaries, as are books in Welsh." Without a note of how many books are available in each, this statement is pointless.

"2/. SWEB, the South Wales Electricity Board, at great expense, altered thier billing system to send out accounts in Welsh. So far 7 people out of 2 million have requested bills in Welsh." SWALEC The S.Wales Electricity Board (SWEB is the S.West Electricity Board, serving parts of England who presumably would not want bills in Welsh!) provide bills on which most of the information is printed in both English and Welsh. The need to request Welsh language bills is non-existant!

"3/. Again at great public expense Cardiff City have gone bi-lingual,
My mole ( A Mudcatter) in Housing benefit department informs me that they have had ONE request for a claim for benefit to be dealt with in Welsh ! But plenty of requests for forms in Brail, Punjabi, Urdu, Arabic etc." Again, as the forms are bi-lingual, there is no need to request a translation.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:54 AM

Gareth, surely the demand for books in Urdu reflects the number of first generation migrants who are either unable to read English well enough or feel nostalgic for their native language. The Welsh can all speak and read English and indeed have had to deal with officialdom in that language for centuries when it was not possible to do so in Welsh, no wonder they are reluctant to put the matter to the test after such 'sensitive' customer service at the hands of officials who even if they could speak Welsh did not deign to do so. It will take a few generations to change peoples' attitudes which were formed over such a long time. Obtaining legal right to use a language is just the first step - then comes the hard part, convincing people that there will no longer be a disadvantage in speaking the language in matters of commerce and bureaucracy.

Strupag, I rejoice to hear of the Language Bill in Scotland. In Ireland they have been promised a similar Bill for several years now to give real force to the government's obligation to operate bilingually as set out in their constitution but not implemented down at grass-roots level except in the education system and then in a half-hearted way. Had history in Ireland and Scotland gone another path both branches of Gaelic might still be as strong as say, Danish or Dutch. Whatever the facts of official hostility towards them and towards Welsh and Cornish, it was due to govt policies of neglect if not outright suppression that the people themselves finally decided to abandon Gaelic to give their kids a chance at success in the dominant English-speaking world they were part of like it or not.

In my book the British govt (and their successors in Ireland and Scotland where for so long English speakers received all the advantages) owe to Gaelic speakers a chance to retain and re-introduce these languages, even if it does mean tax payers foot the bill. As I understand it the sums of money in question are not such as to send either govt broke at about a penny per capita of population per annum. And no one is being forced to use it, nor is it proposed to now neglect English in a similar way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: GUEST,Oko-pogo
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:43 PM

shouldn't youse Cape Bretoners be learning MIkMak?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:49 PM

Nice try Nigel - On the Libuaries -The Figures were published in the Echo. Suggest you visit and see !

I repeat, - Only ONE request for benefit clains to be dealt with in Welsh !

SWEB 7 requests to deal with in Welsh.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Aodh
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

I've just watched an programme on BhBC na h-Alba. It about "New Gaels" its given me a well needed boost after the inital doom of the last census,( as too did the class posts left by Phillipa, moran taing a ghraidh!) but then again I'm a bit of a gloomy person to begin with, why? I'm a A Scots gael. Anyhoo.
If I had my way, which some of you should thank God I do not. Gaelic would have a national status as the "First" language of Scotland, not the "First language of Scotland" if you see the difference? In the parts of Scotland where it was spoken (and that includes the South west of Scotland as well) there should be the outlet for people to learn and speak gaelic if they so wish. I would not like to see gaelic being forced upon people that have now wish to speak or learn the language. We need to make the language attractive enough!?!
But there are problems and sadly they apear to come from the "native camp" We are still not brave enough to stand up for what is ours and too ready to equate Gaelic with sack cloth and ashes, Why? beacuse we have had three hundred years of being told we were the barbarians.

As for teaching Urdu, and other languages, what can they tell us about the country we live in? What can Arabic tell me about Ossian, Aoibhir Aluinn or Cu Chulain and Aifa?
will Urdu give me more of an insight into how the landscape around me came to have its name? By turning our backs on Gaelic we loose over 2000 years of history and culture. And that is not to mention the art and culture being produced to day!

I've now rambled too much and need to sit still for a while.

Oidhche mhath

Aodh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:34 PM

Gareth - I'll disagree for once. Could you please post your facts & figures - Nigel makes bloody good points (apart from the 'usual Imperialism' remark) that you fail to even slightly disprove in your brief reply. Bilinguistic ability (practically a given amongst Welsh or Scots Gaelic speakers) is a compelling argument against blindly accepting your earlier 'doomsaying'. Please provide more evidence (or stop being so gloomy, yer miserable Welsh sod! ;) And also explain Betteshanger, if you would be so kind!). Thanks

Malcolm Douglas - well said, sir!

Allan Dennehy - Likewise, well expressed. There's far too much ideology in education, & it doesn't matter whether it's right- or left- wing driven. I'm something of a fan of Edward de Bono. I believe the main thrust of the education system ought to be teaching people (of any age) how to think, not simply stuffing them full of 'facts' so they can satisfy the latest fad in league tables... I never learnt to think in school, & 20 years later, I can scarcely remember a fact that I was taught at the time. It doesn't say much for what we're supposed to be trying to achieve, does it?

Strupag - I'm English. Nevertheless, I'm rooting for you. Long may local traditions, local culture, & local dialect/language (regardless of the geographical width of 'local') survive. Now if only I were allowed to be proud of being English, & had a reliable body of lore that I could fall back on, without being accused of being a racist bastard... :(

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:13 AM

Gareth: you seem to have missed the point entirely. You are repeating 2/. SWEB, the South Wales Electricity Board, at great expense, altered thier billing system to send out accounts in Welsh. So far 7 people out of 2 million have requested bills in Welsh.
As I pointed out SWEB(which does not stand For South Wales Electricity Board) do Not cover Wales, that is done by SWALEC I am surprised that an English company supplying English customers has had as many as 7 requests. The Welsh supplier (SWALEC) automatically bills bi-lingually!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Ireland
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:03 AM

Philippa, could you please tell me when was Irish banned from BBC N Ireland,I never knew that happened.

Now without bringing politics into this, more social stereotypes, was there not a fair amount of "protestants", N.Irish who kept the Irish language going. Please do not take this the wrong way I'm not trying to offend in any way.

I think Mc G of H has made the best argument for the preservation of the language, well it beats the pants of "what do you want to speak that old sh-t for" which my friends down south say. That's the sad part of the argument for saving Irish when some of the Irish themselves reject it.

There was a show on RTE the other night I forget which person, it was about a priest,the locals were not happy with him coming back to his home town to work, they thought he would impose Irish language on them. Goes to show stereotyes do not always work.

Well from my perspective and one who only knows a few words,the loss of the language will be a shame, so rather than as my contemporaries despise the sound of the Irish language I welcome it, especially with subtitles.

Now all I need is someone to explain Scots-Irish to me, again without any offence intended, are such languages a result of poor English and old words.But that's another subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Jimmy C
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:40 AM

I grew up in N.Ireland and learned a fair bit of the language while attending a Christian Brothers Schhol, also a few summer months in the Gaeltacht in Donegal. I still speak it a litle but shamefully have lost most of what I once had. We in Belfast looked at it as being one opportunity to preserve a little of our Irish heritage, in the north, many things associated with Irish culture were not promoted as much as they should have been, I have many friends from the South who share the same view as Alann Dennehey, that it was shoved down their throats and therefore they rebelled against it. I could never understand that ,as I am sure English, Mathematics, Science, Geoggraphy were also shoved down their throats as well but they did not react in the same way about those subjects. We in the North had to look at symbols of the British Empire in our daily lives, Union Jack flags, harps with a crown on badges and government buildings etc, Hurling and Gaelic football results only printed in a few Irish papers, mostly rock and roll on the radio etc. The mistake the southern government made was trying to force the people to learn their own language, they should have outlawed it and many of the people would have learned it just for spite. When will they understand the Irish Psyche. If you want them to do something, tell them they cannot. I was in Belfast last year and was amazed at the number of Irish speakers there, little kids, waitresses, hairdressers, almost everywhere you turn on the Falls road you can hear people comversing in Irish. All my nephews and nieces are all learning it, other family members in Dundalk have it as a first language in their homes, so much so that the parents have to learn it to communicate with their children. They of course also learn English, French, Spanish etc. The language was never really dead in Ireland, it was on it's last legs for a spell but it looks like it will make a full recovery. Sincerely hope it can be revived to the same extent in Scotland.

Slan
Jimmy

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Felipa
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 04:58 PM

Maybe "banned" isn't the right word, but I understand it used to be BBC policy to exclude Irish language from programming and I've heard that at one time the BBC in N Ireland even avoided Irish traditional music. The half hour a day, by the way, is on radio. There is just an occasional feature programme on tv* and sometimes series for schools; but while we have our own BBC Radio Ulster and Radio Foyle, only a small portion of the tv programming is locally made. Chinese language and Ulster-Scots programmes have also been broadcast on BBC Radio Ulster in recent years.
*tonight: "Ceol i gCuideachta" with Iarla ÓLionaird of Afro-Celt Sound System is on before Newsnight.

I met an old man who told me he had joined the IRA as a youth because of the repression of Gaelic football.

Seeking more specific information, I looked in a slim book by Vincent McKee Gaelic Nations politics of the Gaelic lnguage in Scotland and Northern Ireland in the 20th Century. London: Bluestack, 1997. McKee gives a lot of detail about education; the Unionist government for years placed restrictions on the amount of Irish that could be taught in schools and what forms (years/grades) it could be taught to. For example, at one time schools were allowed to allocate a maximum of one and a half hours a week to teaching the language, though they could offer extra-mural classes outside school hours. That was done in some Catholic maintained schools, not in state schools. Liberalisation began in the sixties; by then Irish had finally died out as a native language in areas such as the Sperrins, glens of Antrim and Rathlin Island, where it had been in gradual decline into the 1950s.

What McKee says about broadcasting in Unionist controlled Northern Ireland from the 1920s is that "Quite simply, Gaeldom was treated by a subversive culture, unwelcome in the state schools, effectively blacked out of state broadcasting, and denied both recognition and public funding for its arts and cultural projects" (p28) and "Unionist hostility was futher pitted against Gaelic games, which were denied public sponsorship and effectively kept off the the screens of BBC Northern Ireland and Ulster Television until the late 1960s. So also were Ceilidh dancing and Irish music similarly curtailed, while Gaelic arts were kept to the periphery without official funding." (p 32)

The first Irish language medium primary school in Northern Ireland opened in 1971; it qualified for Dept of Education funding 13 years later Broadcast media coverage of Gaelic games began in the late 1960s and was gradually expanded. "...Irish language coverage was exempted from the thawing process. By 1985 there were no regular Gaelic medium programmes of either a utilitarian or educational kind. Nor did the cultural activities - including musical fleadhs, ceili dancing festivals, Gaelic drama etc ... receive broadcasting coverage." (Scottish media on the other hand has long been supportive of cultural activities, including the Gaelic singing competitions at the Mod). I can't remember when the first programmes featuring Irish were broadcast in N Ireland or when BBC started its Irish language broadcasting unit; according to McKee it must have been after 1985 anyway.

I don't know that lack of official support hindered the music (a question for another thread perhaps). As for the language, voluntary groups such as Comhaltas Uladh did significant work - and the fact that there were Irish-language publications, media and summer schools available just over the border and even a bit of funding from Irish language bodies in the Irish Republic did help. But as I have already said, Irish speakers and learners have greatly benefited from recent increased government recognition. They didn't get that recognition without campaigning of course; this is a positive feedback cycle.

Finally - a local news item which illustrates how you can campaign for language rights whether or not you have a bill for "Secure Status". The UK is a signatory to EU charters. A Derry pensioner with a long history of campaigning for rights to use Irish refused to get a new Smartcard bus pass for free travel unless he could apply in Irish. He also said equal rights should be given to Ulster Scots. Prionsias got thrown off a lot of buses over the past year. Finally he got a letter from the Dept for Regional Development stating that "The Department, mindful of its obligations under the Council of Europe Charter for Regional or Minority Languages has decided to make an Irish language version of the senior citizens concessionary fares application form. The Department would also look favourably on a similar request from an Ulster Scots speaker."

Subject: RE: Irish and Ulster-Scots
From: Felipa
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

more replies to "Ireland" and an apology to Strupag:

Yes, there have been Protestants who made important contributions to the study and conservation/revival of Irish. More so in the 19th century than since Irish independence and partition, however. And there are currently a number of Protestants who speak or are learning Irish, but they are the exception rather than the rule and often have to make greater efforts to find classes and discussion groups than do their Catholic counterparts. An example for me of how the language is identified in people's minds with politics is back before the ceasefire, when I was collecting for a flag day for an Irish language nursery school. A few people from the area (and probably Catholic) said "oh, that's Sinn Féin" - simply because it was Irish language - and rejected the project on that basis.

I think "Scotch Irish" is the American term mostly applied to descendents of people who emigrated from Ulster mostly in the 18th century. They were Protestants and had come to Ireland from Scotland but many left after only a generation or so because they weren't happy with the conditions of their tenancies. Lately the term "Ulster Scots" has become a popular term in N Ireland, partly to express the Scottish heritage and identification many people (especially Protestants) here have and partly as a name for local dialect (some call it a language) spoken by both Protestants and Catholics in areas which had significant Scottish settlement. It's not "bad English", but it is non-standard. Did Robert Burns write "bad English"? Influences include archaic forms of English , Norse and (Irish and Scottish) Gaelic. But similar to Irish, support for Ulster-Scots has its political and sectarian dimensions, unfortunately.

Personally, while I want to see Irish used in all "registers", I would support cultural projects in Ulster Scots but I don't see a need for it to be used in official, legal language - translating assembly debates into Ulster Scots etc. While there are differences in syntax and vocabulary, some of the distinctive features are pronunciation and I think "head" can be pronounced "heid" (heed) and "round" "roond" (the "ou" as in "uncouth") without always changing the spelling. In the context of courts and legislatures and so on, the occasional symbolic writing of titles and signs above standard English content seems adequate to me. I would like to hear more Ulster Scots in broadcasting and it should be included in literature and heritage aspects of education. Funding should be (and is) available for study of local dialects.

Language activists Prionsias and Rois Ó Mianáin (see bus pass item in the preceding message) made a big banner proclaiming: "If ye ken Scotch dinnae houl yer wheesht / Má tá Gaelic agat ní binn béal ina thost" (playing on the sayings "houl yer wheest" - be quiet/shut up - and "Is binn béal ina thost" - silence is sweet)

Strupag - sorry for stealing your thread. Irish Gaels do tend to dominate Scots Gaels! Other people, starting with Big Mick, asked and I felt I had to reply. So maybe you should come back and update us with news of the Gaelic language bill debate

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:32 PM

Nigel - You live in Cardiff. I suggest you go into any public libuary and count books.

If I am late in rejoining this thread it is because most of my spare time in the last few days has been spent rewriting our election material to take into account the political demise of Ron Davies, and providing templates so that if required, we can provide translations into Welsh and Braile. And, the hardest bit, getting them approved by the Legal Section at HQ.

One of the reasons that the Nationalists go nutty is with any suggestion that Welsh should not be compulsary at secondary level at school. If it's suggested that parental and pupil choices should be effective then the North Wales "Yaki Dah" establishment go ballistic.

But talk about the "English Not" - Its well documented that here in Caerphilly where there are mixed language schools the Welsh Medium section trys to segregate thier pupils at break time - so to prevent the kids speaking thier natural and historic language.

Gareth / Garydd

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Ireland
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:56 AM

Thanks for taking the time to reply Felipa, it is interesting though to find out that the presbyterians, I'm not one, had their ministers learn Irish. I asked some others and found this little known or should I say appropriately forgotten fact.

We have lost a lot in our education system in N.I. while at school,we lost out to the predjudices of our politicians. This is where I think the lanaguage bill is important, it is part of Scotlands culture/heritage, and lets hope if it is successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: robinia
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:23 PM

Of course, the complicating thing in Scotland is the existence in large, populated parts of the country (especially the North-East!) of a linguistic heritage that enthusiastic converts to the Gaelic cause unfairly denigrate, I think, as merely a "bastard" form of English. Actually Scots (or the "Doric" or "Lallands" -- sp?) has a long history of its own, and I suspect that many native Scots for whom it is THEIR "first language" resent the presumption that it ought not to be -- that if they were "true Scots" they would be diligently learning Scots Gaelic as the "true language of Scotland" and singing bothy ballads in it, as a more linguistically correct Robert Burns would doubtless have written his songs in Scots Gaelic too...   Do I exaggerate this presumption of "Celtic privilege"?   I did not feel it in Scotland but have felt it very strongly in Seattle, where the praiseworthy study of Scots Gaelic can go hand in hand with both political brainwashing and a blindness to the wonderful linguistic diversity of Scotland.   What a pity that language should become such an acrimonious political football!

Subject: RE:Gaelic and Doric
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:37 AM

I don't think it's fair to say that supporters of Gaelic in Scotland denigrate Doric; on the contrary some are supporters of both

Subject: RE: BS: Gaelic Language Bill
From: robinia
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

Sorry, I should have said "some supporters" -- and particularly from far outside of Scotland. Maybe this is a sore spot with me, but I found very off-putting the way some Gaelic enthusiasts in Seattle insisted not only on the "first language" status of Gaelic for all of Scotland but seemed to be claiming a sense of moral privilege -- a corner on sensitivity and suffering -- for Gaels in general. When I heard (as part of our Gaelic language class) a florid account of the sins of the modern world that "no Gael would ever do," I was forcibly reminded of my childhood reaction to American patriotism.   As a child, I had resented Americans putting down other nations; I'd resented their thinking they had a corner on democracy, and yes, I found myself resenting this cult of all things Celtic.
I've strayed from the linguistic point, of course, but I think there's a connection, at least among the fanatical fringe. (And I'm also happy to agree with Philippa about the situation in Scotland; there was no discord at the the Keith festival between the Doric and the Gaelic...)

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Strupag
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:39 AM

I couldn't figure you out Garydd but as you now have indicated, albeit through coded language, that you are an activist in one of the Unionist parties, it rings a familiar bell.
Well Felipa, I've been an holiday until Monday but the latest but this was the situation just before I went off.
The labour group in the Scottish Parliament unexpectedly withdrew their objection to the bill and it was given an unexpected second reading. This is not the good news that it seems because because, of a previous lack of co-operation and support, there is almost too little time for the Bill to go through now before the "end of play" before the elections in a few weeks time.
Such important matters such as a bill about dog fouling managed to take precedence over the Gaelic Bill.
Ye ken 'is Robina, It's a muckle sair fecht that wid skunner a saint. Mind ye, dug keech is a change frae bull keech!

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Alasdair
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:11 AM

Good discussion. My Dad is a Plaid Cymru member and town coucillor. He was instrumental in establish the first Welsh language school in the Caldicot area. Opposing groups have tried to paint Plaid Cymru as being racist in the past, however my Dad's group contains several ethnic minorities, and also some English groups. The philosphy is that if your for Wales and for the Welsh language then that's all that matters.

A

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM

"destroyal"? "destroyal"?   

Whatever happened to "destruction"?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: MMario
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:48 AM

re-constructionists petitioned against the use of de-struction as being un-constructive.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Shonagh
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 01:59 PM

First of all I should say that this is a really interesting topic! also, just to point out, im 17, and from a wee place just outside aberdeen in north east scotland. and yes i speak doric! Ive been learning scots gaelic for the past year and a bit, and throughly enjoy every minute of it, i did this so not only could i understand it when some of my friends speak it when i visit them in wester ross/glasgow or where ever they may be but also because im a singer, i thought it would be nice to learn some gaelic songs and understand them better. Ive always love the language even though i didnt always understand it.

i think its wrong to say that the younger generation would rather watch mtv or ricki lake than learn a beautiful language. fair enough, i like my mtv and ricki but i dont think all is lost - i know plently of younger people learning this language, wanting to keep it alive, and they are aware of the falling numbers of speakers. and this is in aberdeen which is not seen as a gaelic sort of community kind of place, the language "died out" here a while ago but there are many older people still speak it and are encouraging younger people like myself to learn.

Yes, i'd say my first "language" is doric, but then the question of dialects or "national language" as you say rears its head. and i'd feel a true scot whether i spoke gaelic, doric, lowlands or broad scots.

Sorry if some of this doesnt make sense, its right off the top of my head, its a friday evening, im just home from school and my mum and dad are having a debate about dialects and doric words in the background!!

Shonagh x

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 05:00 PM

Gareth,

after searching the internet with Google, I can find no evidence that your "seven requests" story is true about either SWEB or SWALEC. Care to post a reliable link/source?

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Lanfranc
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:00 PM

Could "destroyal" be a conflation of "destruction" and "betrayal", if so, it could be a useful neologism!

Alan

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Strupag
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM

Uncle Dave, Maybe the reason why we use words like destroyal, is that we have seen a lot of betrayal.
Why don't you let your pretentious guard down and enter a discussion?
Are you a supporter of the Gaelic culture and language? Do you speak Gaelic or Doric?
You remind me of a very smug English friend of mine who is extremely confident in Kent but scared to cross the channel as he speaks extremely poor French.

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: CraigS
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 07:25 PM

I'd just like to mention that England does not have an "official language" - there has never been an Act to declare any language official. As a consequence, the language of the English Court is taken to be the "official language" - ie, French ! On the other hand there are three Official Languages of the EEC, viz. English, French, and German - so English became official when the UK joined, but only outside the UK. The strange thing is that Scotland similarly has never had an official language, and the Scottish court language was also French, so if Gaelic becomes official, English will be the unofficial language of Scotland.
It may also be of interest that a movement in Spain has forced recognition of Catalan as an official language, and that many official documents (such as licenses for pharmaceuticals, which is how I know) now have to be rendered in both Catalan and Castilian, which is keeping a lot of translators in gainful employ!

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 09:29 PM

BS BS BS

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Felipa
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 09:43 AM

1)Guest doesn't have much constructive to add!

This had been a "BS" thread and Joe Offer decided that it was of interest to singers".

Joe didn't add any related threads at the top of the page, so I'll cite "Fairwell to Gaelic?" (farewell), about the census results
and
Gaelic Scotland as others see us

2)Many respondents to the Gaelic Scotland thread discussed the likes of Broad Scots and Doric; you may see why some supporters of Gaelic feel pressed to defend their corner, to stress that they are talking about/in a completely different language! - though Robinia's messages are making me look at a different angle to the question of whether or not non-native speakers of Doric should Anglicise the wording/pronunciation of bothy ballads and other songs from Shonagh's part of the world. Maybe we should consider we have a duty to pass on the Doric.

3)Ulster-Scots is Ulster-Scotch in Ulster-Scots! also called "Ullans" as in "Lallans", a Scottish dialect which it resembles.
"houl yer wheesht" could be written in standard English as "hold your whist" and you can find "whist" meaning silence in ordinary English dictionaries. Some people say "houl' yer whist", but it just doesn't sound right in the "received pronunciation" of "hold your whist".

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Aodh
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:48 PM

Ola!
I would like to take this opertunity to say soreeeey to anyone who has had a bad experience from the more ardent supporters of Scots Gaelic and although we should strive not to let politics in, it finds a way.

I would love to see Scotland like the Netherlands with a population ably to communicate in more than just one language. Gaelic, Doric, Scots, English, Orcadian etc, but please understand that Gaelic has had a constent fight ot get to where it is today. A lot of good people have fought tooth and nail to get us to the stage we feel able to say, "Give us some protection".

But what I would not want to see is Scotland having a "Language line" that has lead to two Belgiums one called Belgique and the other Belgie.

Aodh

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: robinia
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 06:32 AM

Yes, I'd hate to see that happen too. When my daughter was an exchange student in Belgium some years ago, I got my first taste of how ugly this fight between two language groups could be, with the once oppressed flamands "getting their own back" as it were, against the francophones..... I'd always thought linguistic diversity was FUN too.   What a pity when we get carried away with historic hatreds. (And even worse when we distort history -- for a wonderful corrective to the kneejerk "victim view," I highly recomment a book by Arthur Herman, I think, called "How the Scots invented the modern world"; he sets the record straight.).

Subject: Languages of Scotland - USA workshop
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 01:43 PM

For anyone on the east coast of the US, I see a one-day course called "Suas leis a' Ghàidhlig! (Up with Gaelic!)-Scotland's Vibrant Languages", with an intro to Gaelic, Doric and Lawlans; is being offered by the Smithsonian Residents Associates Programme on Sat 14 June.

The instructor, Philip D. Smith Jr., is a professor of languages and linguistics, emeritus, West Chester University, Pennsylvania

For further details see http://residentassociates.org/rap/scotland/languages.asp or phone [phone]

no year is given on the web-page, but 14 June does fall on Saturday this year!

I note the spelling "lawlans"; I'm more familiar with the name "lallans", and I wonder if this just means "lowlands" speech?

Subject: RE: Gaelic Language Bill
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 01:47 PM

"On 28th March 2003 it was announced that the four main political parties in Wales had signed a language protocol, drawn up by the Welsh Language Board, which provides that the language will not be used as a political football during the election campaign. The parties have agreed to 'foster and support an atmosphere of tolerance and respect between people of different linguistic groups; not to publish any material which may stir up linguistic division or hostility; and not to use words or actions likely to stir up hatred or prejudice.'"

Welsh needs its own thread, as it's being discussed quite a bit on the Gaelic threads, but this information was given in a press release from "Tagh a' Ghàidhlig", elect Gaelic, a campaign "to raise awareness of Gaelic issues during the May Elections Campaign" in Scotland. Tagh a' Ghàidhlig "called for an all-party agreement on the general principles of an anticipated post-election Gaelic Language Bill".

PS if you click on the fairwell to Gaelic link in my message of 30 March, you'll find some songs and poetry added, even though I think it is still labelled a "BS" thread