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BS: Germany and France are not Europe

DougR 04 Feb 03 - 05:54 PM
Orac 04 Feb 03 - 12:26 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 04 Feb 03 - 12:23 PM
Orac 04 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM
CarolC 03 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM
Gareth 03 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM
CarolC 03 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM
DougR 03 Feb 03 - 03:38 PM
CarolC 03 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM
DougR 03 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 03 - 11:40 AM
Teribus 03 Feb 03 - 08:44 AM
Wolfgang 03 Feb 03 - 07:44 AM
DougR 31 Jan 03 - 12:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 03 - 02:21 PM
DougR 30 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM
Teribus 30 Jan 03 - 09:54 AM
CarolC 30 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM
AKS 30 Jan 03 - 09:06 AM
Teribus 30 Jan 03 - 07:50 AM
AKS 30 Jan 03 - 06:50 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 29 Jan 03 - 02:18 PM
Teribus 29 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 29 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM
AKS 29 Jan 03 - 09:13 AM
BusbitterfraeScotland 29 Jan 03 - 07:42 AM
Teribus 29 Jan 03 - 07:04 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 29 Jan 03 - 06:38 AM
stevetheORC 29 Jan 03 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Davtnova 29 Jan 03 - 06:20 AM
Teribus 29 Jan 03 - 05:56 AM
Teribus 29 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM
DougR 29 Jan 03 - 02:16 AM
DougR 29 Jan 03 - 02:07 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 28 Jan 03 - 04:20 PM
CarolC 28 Jan 03 - 04:15 PM
harvey andrews 28 Jan 03 - 03:06 PM
Wolfgang 28 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jan 03 - 01:02 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 28 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM
CarolC 28 Jan 03 - 12:43 PM
Richie 28 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM
GUEST 28 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM
CarolC 28 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM
Richie 28 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM
CarolC 28 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM
Wolfgang 28 Jan 03 - 11:40 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:54 PM

Orac: I think you make a good point in your post of 12:16 on 4 Feb.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Orac
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:26 PM

Ah.. so all is not lost then..!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:23 PM

Bumsfeld did say that France and Germany are the old Europe. The good news is that Britain is part of the new Europe, now joined by Berlusconi's Italy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Orac
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

Maybe the fellow's being a tad misrepresented. I didn't hear what Herr Rumsfeld actually said but maybe he only means that F & G don't speak for the whole of Europe... even though they certainly like to think they do... much to the irritatation of us in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM

Depends on our motives, Gareth, whether or not they are self-serving and at the expense of innocents, or whether or not they are genuinely for the good of the people in the region. So far, our track record doesn't look too good in that respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM

What Gareth said is more or less what Clinton was saying it in his speech to the British Labour Conference last autumn, and it's got some validity. But I haven't heard anything like that from Bush, or for that matter Blair, with them apologising for past policies and past actions.

I'm sure the people shot in the At Valentines Day Massacre were a pretty unsavoury bunch - but I don't think the fact that he rubbed them out is seen as a reason for defending Al Capone.

Predictions that oil revcenues will be used to defray the cost of the war and any occupation, and that foreign companies expect to make big profits out of exploiting Iraq's resources, don't really square with the notion that this is the West in penitent mood trying to undo some part of the damage it has done to the people of the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM

Mmmm ! And interesting justaposition regarding the French resistance. I would make one small correction though. "blindfolded, tortured, then shot, if they were lucky".

Needless to say that great humanitarion, Saddam Hussain, has never had his opponents or "suspects", "blindfolded, tortured, then shot, if they were lucky", has he ????

And if we, the West, put him there, have we not a moral duty to rectify matters, hopefully peacefully, and preferably before he can do any more damage or death to his own people ????

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

You don't really know what my viewpoint is, DougR, because I've never really stated it in any kind of detail. Nor will I at this particular juncture. All you can do is speculate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:38 PM

Carol C: when you point out that there is a "lot of interesting information," don't you mean there is a lot of interesting information that supports your viewpoint at that site?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

For some interesting and well documented information on the whole issue of war with Iraq and the "War on Terror", check out this site. (Take a careful look around. There's a lot of stuff in there.):

Center for Cooperative Research


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM

Ah ha, Wolfgang, but I was referring to the other eight countries!

:>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:40 AM

As was a pretty general practice in Afghanistan for captured Taliban fighters, it appears. If they were lucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:44 AM

From Davtnova's post above:

"Just a point. Uncle charlie reckons French resistance fighters were the most corageous of WWII. It is worth reflecting that under America's new rules, instituted after the invasion of Afganistan, these people would have been classified as unlawful combatants who could be blindfolded, taken anywhere in the world against their will and kept in open cages with no human rights or recourse to law."

An obvious point in response:

They would therefore have fared much better under America's new rules - Generally French Resistance Fighters were blindfolded and shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:44 AM

Doug, a response to your last question (in your own style):

Yes, both Germany and France are a part of Europe.

Wolfgang (grinning)


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:47 AM

Uh, Prime Ministers of eight European countries signed a letter of support for President Bush. Germany and France were not part of the eight, of course, but what do you have to say to that? Are they part of Europe?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:21 PM

More like the beginning. Bin Laden killed would be far more powerful than Bin Laden living. That's the big difference between inspirational leaders whose role is to motivate people, and operational leaders, who actually organise things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM

AKS: I think Teribus handled the response to your question very well, and I won't try to elaborate on it other than to say that whoever these people are that think terrorism will be defeated with the defeat of Saddam just aren't facing reality. Even had we been successful in killing Bin Laden, it would not have been the end of Al Quida.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:54 AM

AKS,

Yes normally the carrot is in front, if the donkey doesn't go for the carrot you use the stick.

With regard to the present situation there are, as always a number of ways to look at it:

The situation with Iraq at present could be viewed as the carrot being the easy option for Iraq to comply with the requirements laid down by the UNSC Resolutions. If they follow that course Saddam and the Ba'ath Party stay in power and sanctions will be lifted. The stick is the threat of military intervention that will remove Saddam from power, probably remove the Ba'ath Party from power, result in the enforced disarmament of Iraq after which sanctions will be lifted.

Of the two you would then have to evaluate what would be the most desireable from the American point of view. If Saddam stays then he still needs to be watched closely. If he is deposed then the US must realise that they will be there for a very long time (Remember the US only got involved with the Iran-Iraq War because Saddam, who initiated the conflict, did not achieve his quick victory and was in danger of losing it. That could have led to the break up of Iraq which was not considered advantageous for the region in terms of American, French, British and Russian interests - so they all went to his assistance to ensure that he could disengage from that conflict with Iraq intact). Many of the same issues still apply so, if Saddam is deposed, Iraq must remain intact, some form of concensus democratic Iraqi government must be established and that government must be in the form of a secular Republic opposed to supporting terrorist groups elsewhere.

Taking a wider view of the region as a whole. The carrot is the prospect of implimenting a viable peace process with regard to the Israelis and the Palestinians. At present there is no prospect of that as long as there are non-frontline states such as Iraq and Iran funding Palestinian terrorist groups. If Iraq is forced to comply with UNSC Resolutions then similar pressure can be brought to bear on Israel to do the same. Only this time it will be America insisting that Israel complies, and the pressure that America can bring to bear in this instance would be extremely hard to resist, that's the stick.

It has to be done in that order because if done the other way round Israel would feel as though it was throwing away it's sovereign right to defend itself and that is one thing the Israelis will never ever do. Sharon got re-elected purely on the security issue, if attacks stop Sharon will negotiate, of that I have no doubt. The only trouble is, had the Palestinian elections gone ahead, Hammas would have won in a landslide. Hammas does not recognise the right of Israel to exist and seeks the total destruction of the state of Israel. It can only adhere to that view for as long as states like Iraq and Iran support them, therefore something has to be done to cause that support to be withdrawn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM

If you are planning to use a stick, make sure you also have at hand a bloody attractive carrot.

Sometimes this method is applied with enough integrity to work. But too often it is nothing more than extortion (remember protection money? "We won't burn your store down if you buy our "insurance""). Peope can usually tell when they're being extorted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: AKS
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:06 AM

Isn't the carrot normally kept in front of the donkey, and the stick behind? Besides, where, or what, is the carrot right now? I see only heavy sticks.

AKS


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:50 AM

APC - American "brass neck" will not come into it - Should Saddam Hussein ever appear before a court to answer for his crimes against humanity it will be the UN who drag him there.

AKS - I believe a great number of people throughout the world know only too well that you cannot win by simply "killing bad guys", there is a great deal more to it than that. Two notable examples one relates to a global conflict (World War II), the second relates to an insurrection in one country backed by another country (Malaya). In both those cases the need to fight was obvious and "bad guys" were killed. That part of the problem, although by no means insignificant in either case, was simple. The hard part, but definitely the most significant, was what was done and put in motion, even while hostilities were in progress, to ensure that peace, stability and prosperity would follow. In very simple terms - If you are planning to use a stick, make sure you also have at hand a bloody attractive carrot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: AKS
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:50 AM

I knew I shouldn't have tried to be sarcastic!

What I mean is: Why is it so difficult, for so many people around the world, to accept this: War against terrorism (of any kind) can not be won by simply killing the bad guys! A killed bad guy always is someone's hero (=martyr), and that very someone is always more than willing and ready to step into his/her hero's boots, sooner or later.

Something more fundamental than violently establishing a new regime in Iraq is needed, says I.

AKS
(I do hope that above were not a fact, but I fear it is)


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:18 PM

DougR! thanks for your reply... Differring opinions are what make horse racing, and interesting conversation, they stimulate thought, and improve the overviews of scholars and laymen alike... I'm not in disagreement with you one iota on this one!

I'm a bit prone to standing up for the underdogs when a bully's got 'em down, and this impulse is triggered when I see the fascist bandwagon clammoring in any direction, ...shouting about the attributes of war and biggotry... while the wife and kids suffer the miseries of neglect and fiscal abuse...

So, please pardon me for my occasional outburst... There is so much pain created by the policies were discussing... and to little respect is being paid to the daily sacrifices our countryfolk, and the world's people, endure quietly...


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM

AKS (the European) you say:

"Some people seem to have the opinion that terrorism will end when Saddam has been put down!"

Where on earth did you get that from? It falls into neither of the categories mentioned, i.e. "Fact" or "Hope".


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM

An interesting question, BBFS. Will the US have the brass neck to use the international criminal court against him when they themselves undermined its universal credibility by excusing themselves from its jurisdiction?


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: AKS
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 09:13 AM

"Many of them base their opinions on facts. Others base theirs on hope."

Some people seem to have the opinion that terrorism will end when Saddam has been put down! Which one is that based on, fact or hope?

AKS, a European


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:42 AM

I don't want a war with Iraq, however when they do go to war with Iraq, what will happen Hussen, I don't know to spell his name.
I just hope that he will be put on trial as a war criminal.
Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:04 AM

APC - totally agree - very true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:38 AM

Agreed, Teribus, they're mirror images to the extent that they seem like Mad Magazine's "Spy vs. Spy", but the point about Agee's book is that the CIA wasn't all that accountable.

If you end up behaving like the bad guys on the basis that "we're doing it because we're convinced that's what they'd do if they were in our position", can you still claim to be the good guys?   And all the rhetoric about democracy and freedom stinks against the background of what the Quiet Americans were up to all around the supposedly free world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: stevetheORC
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:31 AM

That was very much the case during the 2 world war so some things never change.

ORC'S is cool in Winter


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,Davtnova
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:20 AM

Just a point. Uncle charlie reckons French resistance fighters were the most corageous of WWII. It is worth reflecting that under America's new rules, instituted after the invasion of Afganistan, these people would have been classified as unlawful combatants who could be blindfolded, taken anywhere in the world against their will and kept in open cages with no human rights or recourse to law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:56 AM

APC on Agees book "Inside the CIA" - They were but one half of the "Cold War" coin. The Soviet KGB had a mirror image Department busily engaged in similar activities at the behest of their masters - Only they were nowhere near as accountable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM

With regard to the "National Socialist or Communist Socialist" thing. The historical parallel alluded to was incomplete - that is a fact. In 1939 Poland was invaded by the Germans from the west and by the Russians from the east, acosy agreement that formed part of their Non-Aggression Pact.

If anyone does want to draw on such parallels from history they should do so in a complete, accurate and factual manner. Failure to do so allows inferences to be drawn from the authors omissions.

I note that Ritchies original questions have not been taken up, answered or addressed in any way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM

I do wish people would stop throwing around that term "politically correct" as if it meant something and somehow solved an argument. In this particular context, Doug, it seems a totally irrelevant adjective.

Rumsfeld's remarks were politically insensitive but that's a different thing entirely from whatever "politically incorrect" might be supposed to mean.

At least when Clinton came over last autumn speaking to the Labour Party conference he had the grace to admit that the USA (and the UK) had done much to help Saddam in the past, and in fact he saw this as a reason why it had a responsibility to undo some of the resulting harm:

The West has a lot to answer for in Iraq. Before the Gulf War when Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds and the Iranians there was hardly a peep in the West because he was in Iran. Evidence has now come to light that in the early 1980s the United States may have even supplied him with the materials necessary to start the bio-weapons programme. And in the Gulf War the Shi'ites in the South East of Iraq were urged to rise up and then were cruelly abandoned to their fate as he came in and killed large numbers of them, drained the Marshes and largely destroyed their culture and way of life. We cannot walk away from them or the proved evidence that they are capable of self-government and entitled to a decent life. We do not necessarily have to go to war to give it to them, but we cannot forget that we are not blameless in the misery under which they suffer and we must continue to support them.

Tha is not a tone we've been hearing from Rumsfeld, who was heavily involved personally in that process. Or from his boss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:16 AM

I do not understand why so many of you are so upset at what Rumsfield said! He didn't insult Germany and France! He said that Europe consists of more than just those two countries! Well it does, doesn't it? All he was saying, I think, was okay Germany and France, if you don't want to join us in ridding the Iraqi people of a despot leader, we will do it with other European allies. We don't need you! You go your way, we will go ours. No hard feelings.

What's wrong with that? (Oh yes, I forgot, it's probably not politically correct!)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:07 AM

Thomas: not a bad idea. People who do not agree with you are not necessarily ass-holes, ignorant, less than human, etc. They are just people with opinions. Many of them base their opinions on facts. Others base theirs on hope.

I don't believe Richie is a flamer. No more than those who present the opposing view. Actually, I think he and Teribus are holding up the opposing view very well against almost overwhelming odds.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:20 PM

Point Taken Wolfgang, sorry to offend you. Yes, I was offensive, but as far as the reading of a post I disagree with and taking it with a grain of salt, I can only say that I am deeply and personally offended by ignorant and misinformed individuals... spouting propaganda like it's new found wisdom... and bringing with it all, a sense of smirking indifference to peace, morals and ethical religious teachings...

Sometimes ya gotta just throw the assholes out... the question is... which is which? ...guess I'd better tone it down huh? ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:15 PM

If any country needed a regime change to free its people and end terrorism it appears to be Saudi, but no one talks of this...

Give us time, harvey. We'll get around to it after we take care of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 03:06 PM

Can't we just agree that's it the hypocracy that gets us all angry. There are many countries needing a regime change but we don't threaten them with one because we have no interest (oil) in their country.It appears that most of the terrorists named for the suicide attack or plans for terrorist attack are from Algeria or Saudi Arabia. If any country needed a regime change to free its people and end terrorism it appears to be Saudi, but no one talks of this because they are our economic friends.
Morality has to be left out of this discussion because morality is not involved. All threatened actions are about protecting financial self interest it seems to me.
I had a vox pop with an elderly lady in our village post office today. She remembers the beginning of the second world war and listening to Churchill's broadcasts.
"You just believed him to be right" she said. "First the Rhineland then Poland invaded, and we knew what Fascism meant for the rest of Europe. So you knew you had to fight it. It was the right thing to do.
I don't feel it's like that now."
And behind this is religious fundamentalism, the most dangerous weapon of mass destruction in the history of mankind.
Bush believes only belief in Christ allows entry to Heaven. The other side believe martyrdom for Allah leads to a sexual paradise. The saddest thing about all this I think is that the intellectual progress made by science and our finest thinkers is being submerged in ignorance, and the rider of the beast of ignorance is war, destruction and death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM

What is the problem in reading a post by someone with whom you do not agree without recurring to personal insult? Is it really more than can be asked for in political threads?

I find both the 'certified no brainer' and the 'National Socialist or Communist Socialist' part of those posts very different from what I want to read here.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

Relax, McGrath... Richie is definitely a flamer. He gets his viewpoint from CNN and slants it with CIA briefs from there... a certified 'no brainer' ...if you ask me. ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:02 PM

"Or was that a question of what shade of Socialist you wanted to call yourself - National Socialist or Communist Socialist. "

Now that, I would suggest is flaming - and in no way justified by anything I had said. I do not believe I have ever made a personal attack on Teribus (or anyone else for that matter) comparable to that. If I ever I would be ashamed to have done so, more especially because I would see it as damaging to the Mudcat.

The reason the Russians weren't put on trial for the numerous war crimes they committed was the same reason they that Allies weren't (for example fro the bombing of Dresden). They won the war.

I hope that some day things won't work that way and that the people on the winning side will be compelled to stick within the agreed intenational laws about what constitutes criminal conduct in war. (And I am not suggesting that it is possiblke to wage war without doing extremely nasty things - I am just saying that there are agreed limits on what can be done, and those agreements should be adhered to.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

Carol, you got it in one.

The US view in the Wilson and Roosevelt days was supposed to be that clapped-out European imperialism was the cause of all the world's ills, and only the rule of international law, promloted by the youthfully innocent USA would change things for better. Unfortunately their successors have taken over the imperial role and no longer see anything wrong with it.

Read Philip Agee's "Inside the CIA". It's nothing too wild and cloak-and-dagger. On the contrary, it's a rather tedious read. But it shows "the Company's" modus operandi, repeated around the world, of corrupting and subverting governments, often legitimately elected, and of using lies and forgeries to influence the outcomes of elections (not to mention arming and paying for coups d'état, as happened in countries which Agee didn't personally experience), all in the name of fighting against "Communism" but in fact just advancing US interests. You put it down with the same sense of disgust as a work of pornography, but it's still worth reading to understand the last half-century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:43 PM

All I can say, Richie, is this: one man's "pre-emptive attack" is another man's "war of agression". The Hitler comparisons cut both ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM

Carol,

Your opinion is one that is taken by many people: that the US involvement in other countries leads to retribution.

If every country left every other country alone then the world would not be a safer place. There are still people that muder other people for whatever reason whether on the street in Dallas or one country attacking another. You cannot reason with murderers like Bin Laden. Their goal is to kill people in the US. It's too late to reason with terrorists.

The only thing you can do is try to protect yourself and other countries. As a world leader that is what the US is trying to do.

If you let the murders have atomic and chemical weapons they are going to use them.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

Fire is as fire does, bleach no bones about it
The karma here is plain and fear is left alone to tout it
Intelligence not circumstance will bring this world to peace
For war machines in symphonies can not of love bequeath

Tactics born of wars forgotten, or worse yet recalled well
A martyr made of ol Bin Laddin, makes strong the warring spell
Fight or flight and might makes right are meals that make us ill
C'mon, lift up your loving mind... with peaceful use of will.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

Richie, it is my opinion that the foriegn terrorists who attack the US do it precisely because of the state sponsored terrorism that the government of the US conducts and finances all over the world. It is my opinion that it is the US government that is putting the lives of my family members in danger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM

Saddam was only trying to determine what the US reaction would be. He figured that without international outrage he would be able to take over Kuwait. It was the same tactic Hitler used.

I think that after 9-11 the US (and other countries) decided that instead of letting Bin Laden and Hussein perpetrate genocide on other peoples, the world would be safer if they were not capable of having nuclear and chemical/biological weapons in their hands.

Carol- if terrorists killed your family or your friends wouldn't you wonder why nothing was being done to protect you.

When terrorists start exploding nuclear devices and chemical weapons in major cities, which unfortuately will probably happen, there will be outrage but it will be too late.

Maybe we should just let it happen...it's really none of our business, is it!

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM

If Saddam had really been such a big enemy of the US and so uncontrollable, why on earth would he have ever asked for permission prior to invading Kuwait?


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Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:40 AM

From a translation of Iraq's transcript of the meeting, released that September, press and pundits concluded that Ms. Glaspie had (in effect)
given Saddam a green light to invade.

"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts," the transcript reports Glaspie saying, "such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary [of
State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated with America."

The Persian Gulf War began Jan. 17, 1991. But before the official end of the war (April 11), Glaspie was called to testify informally before the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

She said she was the victim of "deliberate deception on a major scale," and denounced the Iraqi transcript as "a fabrication" that distorted her
position, though it contained "a great deal" that was accurate.

The veteran diplomat awaited her next assignment, later taking a low-profile job at the United Nations.

In November 1992, Iraq's former deputy prime minister, Tarik Aziz, gave Glaspie some vindication. He said she had not given Iraq a green
light. "She just listened and made general comments," he told USA Today. "We knew the United States would have a strong reaction."


Wolfgang


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