Counterfactual musical history- what if?

Subject: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:59 PM

I heard a great discussion today on NPR about "counterfactual" history. Several historians have written essays about this for two books, "What If" dealing with military history and "What If, 2" dealing with world history in general.

Each took a pivotal event in history and examined what if it went another way. It was quite interesting and valuable not only for entertainment, but also, as a couple of them pointed out, to interest young people in history and to prove that regular human beings, we the people, can effect great changes.

Anyway, I thought it might be fun if we tried it with music. It's wide open. Only rule they had was it has to be plausible. So, I guess "What if Robert Johnson hadn't gone down to the crossroads" wouldn't qualify, but maybe a "What if Lomax hadn't sought out and recorded the way he did?" What would have happened then?

It doesn't have to stick to any one era, nor any one genre of music. Could just as easily ask "What if Beethoven had not gone deaf? Would he have still composed the same things?"

You get the idea? Let's see where we can go with this, okay?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 06:44 PM

What if John Lennon had not been shot?
What if John Lennon had never met Yoko Ono?
What if John Lennon had never met Paul McCartney?

Sorry, I don't have the imagination to actually try answering these questions.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM

What if John Lennon had not been shot? Would the Beatles have gotten together again?

What if John Lennon had never met Yoko Ono?Would they never have disbanded, making the first question moot?

What if John Lennon had never met Paul McCartney? Would they have existed, totally acing out the first two quetions?**bg**

Interesting you should bring this one up, Jim, as one caller to the show did ask "what if the Beatles hadn't come along" citing their huge influence on an entire generation.

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:20 PM

The two sorts of questions - music and history - overlap.

For example: If the French had come out on top in America, what sort of music would we be playing and hearing?

Or: If Tony Blair's student band Ugly Rumours had been a smash hit, how would that have affected subsequent history.

But on the purely musical side maybe one of the most interesting is: What if Huntingdon's Chorea hadn't struck down Woody Guthrie, and he'd still been around all these years?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM

Great! Now, how about some speculative answers? C'mon, those of you who are more knowledgeable...let's hear it!!

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:46 PM

What if Matty Groves had got his arse out of bed when he heard Lord Banner's horn? eh? what then?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:02 PM

What if Bob Dylabn hadn't changed his name?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM

What if you all answered some of these?**BG**

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Neighmond
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:29 PM

What if Jimmie Rodgers died of TB before recording, or never contracted TB?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:13 PM

I can't remember who said it, but there's a saying in history: When it's steamboat time, people start steamboating. That's supposed to mean that some things HAVE to happen. HOW they happen is another matter.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:17 AM

What if Ike Turner wouldn't have been a woman abuser? Would Ike and Tina Turner still be singing Proud Mary on tours?

What if Jimmy Hendrix was still alive? Would he have any teeth left to play his guitar with?

What if Janis Joplin still roamed the world? Would she have made it with as many women as she did men by now?

What if Jim Morrison was alive and still practicing witch craft? Would he be compared to as Aleister Crowley?

Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:17 AM

What if Bush had won the election..?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:21 AM

Okay, okay...**bg** just to give you layabouts an *example* howsabout ya give the NPR show a listen? If you scroll down to "WHAT IF" on this page ya might find it of interest.:-)

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:25 AM

I suspect that the classic of this genre were penned by the late James Thurber. See "If Grant Had Been Drinking at Appamattox"

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:18 AM

What if Ike Turner wouldn't have been a woman abuser? Would Ike and Tina Turner still be singing Proud Mary on tours?

Yes. At casinos in Biloxi, Mississippi, to be exact.

What if Jimmy Hendrix was still alive? Would he have any teeth left to play his guitar with?

He'd sound a lot like Craig Chaquico, whether he had teeth or not.

What if Janis Joplin still roamed the world? Would she have made it with as many women as she did men by now?

Naw! She would have settled down and married Dick Cavett.

What if Jim Morrison was alive and still practicing witch craft? Would he be compared to as Aleister Crowley?

No. He'd be compared to Harry Potter.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:19 AM

What if Paul Simon had been creative rather than ripping of other people's traditions?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:02 AM

I think misophist is right about individuals. There are public roles to be filled, and someone else is going to fill them.

So if Tony Blair had stuck to music, as I suggested, I think it would have made remarkably little difference, musically or politically. Maybe he'd be lobbying for the Licensing Bill to be amended so that he could keep playing in pubs.

On the other hand if the French had come out top in America - if a sentry had noticed Wolfe's men climbing up the Heights of Abraham in time, for example, and History had wound on in a different track from then on - it's possible to imagine a lot of musical changes. For example, consider the difference between the culture of New Orleans, and its musical legacy, compared to the rest of the Deep South.

I think Woody Guthrie would have been the first person to say that if he hadn't been there someone else would. At least that would have likely applied if he hadn't been there in the first place. However if he had kept his health and strength, I just wonder whether we'd have ever heard of Bob Dylan except maybe as one among a whole host of singers.

In the same way, if Lennon hadn't ever been there, there'd have been a Lennon figure I suspect. If he hadn't been shot that would have made rather more difference, because he hadn't finished.

On the other hand if Elvis Presley hadn't died when he did I think it would have made remarkably little difference to anyone except the casino owners in Las Vegas.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:50 AM

I see what you mean, McGrath:

When the Beatles split up, their role was filled by the Bee Gees.

When Elvis died, his role was filled by Wayne Newton.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:42 AM

LOL Jim!!

A

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:38 PM

What would American popular music be like if the Depression hadn't happend?

What would folk music be like if the folk revivial hadn't occured because there was no one needing reviving?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: David Ingerson
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:00 PM

Just off the top of my head--the French winning in North America would have had some very interesting effects. First, we (us Yanks) would mostly be speaking French, which would creat a huge disconnect between the folk music of the British Isles and North America. Of course there would still have been lots of (maybe more because of religion) Irish immigrants and English, too, so the language issue would have been complicated. And imagine the number of song variants with translations of variants and macaronic variants. I imagine the American French would not be nearly so picky about their language as the contenintal French are, so dialects might have sprung up, too. (And maybe we would have learned our international lesson after Dien Bien Phu!)

David

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: MMario
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:05 PM

given Creole and Cajun; yup - suspect you are right

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:39 PM

What if the Greek mathemetician/philosopher Pythagoras had not discovered the relationship between musical tones and mathematics that became the foundation of the Western musical scale? (Information available at
this link)

Tentative Answers: No-one would be learning such 'intimidating' things as keys and key signatures?

All music would sound "Arabian" or "East Indian" (full of quarter-tones etc.)?   

There's be no such thing as sounding "out of tune?"   Hmmmmmmm

Thanks for the thread, kat! I do love musical ponderings.

daylia

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:48 PM

Y'all are reminding me of a line from The Big Lebowski:

Sometimes, there's a man.

I wonder what might have happened if Allan Freed hadn't had the cojones to play that rock-n-roll music he wasn't supposed to play?

And what if Elvis hadn't died? Would he have just vanished into eccentric obscurity? One thing's for sure: if he were alive, he never would have let his daughter marry that freak Michael Jackson.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 04:29 PM

I assume the Irish and the English going to a French North America would have learned French, the same way the ones going to the Argentine learned Spanish - and the way the non-English speaking immigrants in our timetrack learned and adapted English.

And there'd probably be a sort of Anglophone equivalent of French Canada down the East Coast.

I suspect that there wouldn't have been the same degree of separation between the music of black and white Americans as this developed. My impression is that, on the whole, for one reason or another, French colonists have tended not to be as consistant and dedicated in their racism as English colonists. That could have mean both loss and gain musically.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 04:37 PM

what if elvis had never met the colonel? would he still have been trapped in bubblegum music?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 04:37 PM

Too right, McGrath. If that had happened, maybe Billie Holliday would have had more than one movie to her name and all of the other great black musicians wouldn't have had to go to France for decent gigs and recognition. Wasn't Jessie Norman one of them? Or is she the one that Elenor Roosevelt advocated for?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Sam L
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:01 PM

Buddy Holly was, as everyone knows, washed up. But What if the Big Bopper had never died? Baaaayby? What such protean genius might have wrought can't be told. What if he had sold out, once he had some money (honey)? It boggles the mind.

    Brace yourself and sit down for this one. What if Puff Daddy hadn't changed his name to p. diddy? Yow. How might all our lives be different, and the course of history re-directed? Think about it.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:57 PM

I would be cautious about saying that the French colonists were less racist than the English. True, in Louisiana they were somewhat better, but Haiti was also a French colony. I think that, if the french had taken over the southern English colonies, it would have developed much the same. Economics and politics, not morals, were responsible for American racism, and I think those factors would be the same regardless. As far as the musical aspects go, I think that the language shift would stifle more traditional music than it fostered. Much of the English-language traditional music sung nowadays is from conquered nations like Ireland and Scotland. The French language doesn't have quite as many cultures that speak it.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Mockingbird MacGillickutty
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:32 AM

Did you hear the one about the dyslexic Robert Johnson? Well... he waited 'till midnight, he ventured out , down to the crossroads and there... he sold his soul to santa.

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 02:28 PM

what if no one ever asked rhetorical questions?

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 02:31 PM

Awww ... no one likes Pythagorus? Oh well ...

daylia

Subject: RE: Counterfactual musical history- what if?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:21 PM

Counterfactual history - the good thing is there's no way ofbeing right or wrong.

As for the French and the English - it's not that French slaveowners weren't every bit as capable as the English of appalling behaviour, and the same with the Spanish and Portuguese. But the horror about "miscegenation", in principle if not in practice, seems to have been more of an English thing.

As for "conquered nations that speak French" - well there's Brittany, Corsica, Breize, and for that matter the Languedoc. And that's just at home.