BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?

Subject: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:26 PM

???

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM

Everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Deda
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM

I'm not praying for any side. I'm praying for a worldwide awakening, an "outbreak" of compassion, forgiveness, loving-kindness to replace the vengeance and hatred and violence - everywhere. Honestly, I don't know what else to pray for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Terry K
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:45 PM

No-one. Prayer epitomises delusion and self-delusion and underscores the efficacy of the secular indoctrination which is a principal cause of the impending war.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:49 PM

What Deda said. And wisdom and clarity and long-sightedness...

Terry K, do you think the same thing holds true for meditation?

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Terry K
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM

no - why should it? - meditation is neither secular nor theist.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:16 PM

Terry --

I think you're painting with a very broad brush. Larry Dossey has some very interesting reports on statistical experiemtns on the efficacy of benevolent attention on healing processes over distance which you might find enlightening. There are many definitions of prayer, and kneeling in a small uncomfortable place getting pictures of an angry man is probably not the most efficacious, I grant you. It may be a baby versus bathwater thing, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM

I am not sure if this belongs on this war-related thread. But I wasn't sure and I didn't want to start a whole 'nother one. But I have been chewing on an observation about the war and other matters of "what is right" versus "what keeps happening"(and all of you philosophers who have "known" this since forever don't just jump in my shit about my naivete, OK?).

As much as we like to think (idealistically) that ultimately "right" will win, "right" only wins occasionally and incidentally, and what really wins is force. (And I don't mean "force" as just the end of a gun; political "force" is still force, just the same.)

Yes, we can point up "victories" of "right" but they are just random events whereas force has a much more steady and consistent record of "wins". The question is, what to do with this insight? A world in which everyone accepts the superiority of force as a process and abandons civility is not one I care to live in. Yet there you have it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:31 PM

Why bother there's nobody listening! Or do you think there is some form of divine creature deciding who should be helped by your prayer? "Three thousand for Iraq, two thousand nine hundred for the USA. The Iraqs have it!"
Baloney!!

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM

I would say meditation is often used theocratically, and I believe it is just as effective a tool for self-delusion as is prayer. Depends on the religious beliefs of the user, as much as how it is used. That is what Larry Dossey speaks of--a belief, doesn't matter if it is theologically correct according to any of the major world religions. Just the belief that your prayer/meditation practices will work seems to have some influence (though not a proven one) on a person's recovery from illness.

There is, IMO, an undeniable religious/holy war/jihad undercurrent in today's geopolitical realities. The mistakes and now largely unknown history of the Inquisition and the Crusades appears to be haunting Western Civilization right now.

So, do we suggest that prayer should be offered on a nationalist basis, ie pray for US and UK troops, to appease those American "support the troops" advocates (this doesn't seem to be an issue in Britain), or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST,alinact
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM

"Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?"

Allan

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:48 PM

Excellent point, Allan. But it requires those who are active in the military, to refuse to report for duty, for which they will be court martialed. Nonetheless, they do have the ability to do it. Question is, will those of us opposed to war, support them when they do? In my experience, those in the military on active duty who refuse to report for duty don't get support from many quarters, including the peace movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Well, Terry, I think that depends on how a particular individual chooses to meditate.

I say - everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM

A variation on Allan's post--They gave a war but the world said NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:32 PM

A better question would be "Whom should we *not* pray for if there is war?"

And if there is anyone on that list, why?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:38 PM

Hey Bobert, since I'm the one who title the thead, I suppose you can ask that of me. That was my point exactly for starting this thread, to draw attention to who the "support the troops" folks thought we should pray for, and who we shouldn't pray for in the event of war.

Now then, folks in that "support the troops" thread suggested I was being anti-military by stating we should not support the mission in "their" prayer thread. So I just wanted to know, who is going to be praying for whom, and why?

But apparently, you caught that drift. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM

For Mark Twain's "The War Prayer", click here.

Peace and hope

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: X
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

Pray for the Iraqs, their going to need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 02:43 PM

Pray to Sorcha Dorcha for a new CD and your prayers will be answered, songs against war, songs pro peace, songs of madness and wonder....
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:12 PM

Here's Deck Deckman's revision of Mark Twain's "The War Prayer".

The War Prayer, Revised

O Lord our Father, protect our noble leader from ill-advised cries that he must justify his demands of war, protect him from those who wish to restrict his wishes by appealing to ancient documents, who try to hinder him with demands that he consider the needs of others who aren't us.

O Lord, help us maintain our mighty economic sanctions, keeping from our enemies food and medicine for their sick and dying children.

As our young patriots -- sons of the poor and powerless, for the sons of the rich and powerful must never be exposed to such danger -- go forth to battle yet again be Thou near them!

With them in spirit we also go forth, O Lord, to smite this week's designated enemies from the sweet peace of our beloved TV with its beautiful and bloodless pictures of carnage, described to us by smiling and fawning lackeys who once were reporters.

O Lord Almighty, help us to tear their soldiers and their children to bloody shreds with our bombs dropped from 30,000 feet so that our airmen soldiers need never fear a bullet nor a blade, nor see what they have done.

Help us shatter their hospitals with our bombs, O Lord, so the shrieking wounded can find no solace. Help us destroy their water supplies so disease and death from polluted wells will be visited upon all of them. Help us scatter their land with depleted uranium to give them agonizing cancers, and help us fill their cities and fields with cluster bombs and mines that kill curious little children.

Help us use our mighty steel machines to bury alive their patriots as they futilely try to stem our advance with puny weapons; help us use our burrowing bombs to find the deep shelters and turn mothers sheltering infants into bloody pulp.

O Lord our God, help us plunder their oil to pay for the bombs that destroy them; help our military governors guide their destiny in ways that will always protect and serve us and our interests.

Help our leaders and our town criers keep the ugliness of what we do from our sight so that we never need waste our pity on those we afflict.

For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast the hopes of our enemies, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the everfaithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Maxine
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 03:18 PM

War never decides who's right, only who's left.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:07 PM

The jerboas. They're innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Burke
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:41 PM

Pray for the leaders of the nations, that they have real wisdom, that they work for the good of all people.

Pray for all the combatants, that their lives may be protected. Pray for the families of those in combat.

Pray for all the people living where there is combat, that their lives and safety may be preserved.

Pray for ourselves that we be free from all forms of evil and learn to work for real peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Kudzuman
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM

Pray that Dubyah is not re-elected!

Kudzuman

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:27 PM

Make that *elected*, Kudzman, as he has not yet been elected.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 07:41 PM

Check out "Christians at War" in DigiTrad

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:39 PM

Whoo. Dick, reading that (I don't think I'll learn it!) reminds me of a new song that Alaska's Buddy Tabor has written: 'Brand New Jesus'.

Brand new Jesus,
Brand new plan
Brand new Jesus,
Right wing man

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:14 PM

I guess I should make it clear that that's not the whole song. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:15 AM

Prayer is a waste of energy, because there is no one listening. Better to turn that energy into action: Come out this weekend and join unprecedented numbers of Americans in opposing the administration's plans.

Thou art God!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:46 AM

The Planet is listening..............pray for the entire planet and everything on it, including the rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:59 AM

Pray for the children, for whom the violent actions of adults will become acceptible behavior. Pray for the people... for whom loss is sure to be the only outcome. Pray for peace. Pray for love. Pray for pretzils and their salty denizons. But most of all, pray for Saddam's (and Bush's for that matter) conscience to kick in soon... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Boab
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:49 AM

Pray for the children who are about to be murdered.

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:22 AM

I was walking through the Charlotte airport on Friday evening, with an hour to kill before my final flight of the day. Saw a young guy quietly playing a non-amplified Ibenez electric guitar, so I sat down next to him and listened for awhile. Man, he had chops. He was playing blues, he was playing classical, he was playing everything. We started to talk about guitars, and music, and life. Turns out he was heading for L.A. on leave from the navy, before reporting to his ship in Japan. This old guitar was a gift from his uncle... just good enough to play, bad enough to have onboard ship. I asked him if there was any resistance to having a guitar on board. "I don't care, I'm not going without it." We parted with a handshake. Nice young man.

If you want to pray for someone, pray for the nice young people, on all sides, who will be going into harm's way. And know that on a ship somewhere, there's a badass version of Texas Flood being played.

Blues

Subject: RE: BS: Whom should we pray for if there is war?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:03 AM

Nice post Blues=life! thanks... ttr