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BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered...
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Subject: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Bobert Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:16 PM Well, danged, looks like with Saddam agreeing to U-2 flights and Germany, France, Belgum and Russia standing strong against the Bush War Machine, it's time to dust off Osoma Bin "Forgotten" for a cameo performance. Like, how many folks *believe* that bin Laden made this tape"? Okay, now how amny folks think that bin Laden made this tape within the last week? Month? Year? Well, if it is a current tape then I would like it entered as "Exhibit A" in my case that Bush and bin Laden are in cohoots.... Beam me up... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:29 PM What in the world are you talking about now, Bobert? Check my message in this thread for my thinking on people who seem to be compulsive about starting threads. Can't you fit your comments into an existing discussion? They say that 5 percent of the people demand 95 percent of our attention. Around here, it seems that 5 percent of the people start 95 percent of the threads - and most of their threads are worthless. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM yeah bobert. Joe Offer is the Boss Hogg around here, so you just better shut up and take it. He is the man who decides if you are behaving yourself proper, and he says you ain't, so now you go on "the list". And I'm on that same list, so you just better watch out. Guilt by association with an anonymous guest is the worst sort of association a Mudcatter can have. Oh, that and being guilty of not kissing the Boss Men's asses around here. Yup, both those things will get you on Boss Hogg's Mudcat List of Bad Folk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: GUEST Date: 11 Feb 03 - 10:54 PM BTW Bobert, I was guilty of frivolously posting links to articles--one on the war, and one on an interesting interview with Kurt Vonnegut. So you KNOW how bad I must be. Truly evil. Totally justifiable that we be accused of (I really got a good gut busting laugh out of this admonition) "abusing our thread-creation privleges"!!! Is that a high school flashback or what? Yeah, they nailed me on abuse of thread creation... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Bobert Date: 11 Feb 03 - 11:05 PM Yo Joe: I respect your opinion but if you'll re-read what I have posted here I think you'll find that this is, indeed, a different story. This is about Osoma bin Laden, who I think everyonw will admit has been the *forgotten man* as the US marches on to a war that leaves the "War on Terrorism" in the dust. It's about the slight of the magicans hand. It's very much part of the PR campaign that the Bush administration has wageed---thanks to you tax dollars--- in selling a war that most of the human population is very much against. Now, if you wish to censor this thread, that is your perogative. I persoanlly think it does deal with a subject that other threads are not covering. I realize, my friend, that these a very difficult times and that many websites are consumed with the world's crisis, but I ask of you that you *hang* with the times. And *hang* with the possibilities that there are many governmental programs that are in place to try top manipulate the masses. If we are at odds here, my friend, please PM me and we can communicate and find a common ground. Peace. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Sorcha Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:23 AM 1) I have NO idea what you are talking about Bobert. I hate "open ended" statements that I have no idea what they mean. Please enlighten us. A perfect example is the thread that is talking about Catherine Zeta-Jones and Michael Douglas. No hard info was posted--just somthing about them being nutso. This is about the same. 2) I am just really tired of Politics in General and more tired of all the politics here. I come here to try to get away from it for a little bit. 3) I am sick of the "War" arguments even if they are disguised as discussions. No one is going to change anyones' mind and for the most part, we are preaching to the choir here. My brother is full time Career Army (US) and we have finally agreed to disagree about this, just so he will stop sending me "Hawk" e mail stuff and I will stop sending him "Dove" e mail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Mark Cohen Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:44 AM For the record*, I'm with Bobert. I get it, I agree, and I think it sucks.** Aloha, Mark *Record: Archaic music transfer device. Like a CD, only bigger, and black. Except for my Mickey Mouse Club 45's, which were yellow, and "Rusty in Orchestraville", which was green. (There, it's a music thread!) **In case we're both being a little bit too subtle, we're referring to the fact that after 9/11, the government and the U.S. press were playing the song: "Kill Osama bin Laden and the world will be safe and clean and good again," and everybody was singing along. Osama bin Laden (the guy we trained and equipped and paid to fight the Russians in Afghanistan) being, of course, The Evil Villain. The one who replaced P.S. Joe, I like you a lot. But as someone wise once said (I think it might have been Joe Offer), "If you don't like the thread, just ignore it." [insert stupid little smiley face thing here] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: DougR Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:54 AM Bobert is referring to a tape broadcast today on an Arabic radio station in which Osama Bin Laden (Bobert of course doubts it is really him)expresses support for Iraq and urges them to fight the imperialist Americans. He describes himself as being in partnership with Iraq and it is probably this that causes Bobert to become unglued, because it would provide the link so many have been clamoring for. The link between Saddam and Al Queda. Joe is right in that the message could have been included in one of the multiple threads in existence, but Bobert I think has a point in that if it is a legitimate tape of Osama, it does bring a new dimension to the discussions. In other words, the charge that Saddam is in league with Osama would be proven. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Mark Cohen Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:17 AM Thanks, Doug, for describing the event that precipitated this discussion, which I forgot to do. Of course, I disagree with your analysis...but that's not news! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:31 AM OK, well, finally I got enough information to understand what the first message was about. that helps, but I still feel we're buried in war threads and all sorts of other copycat threads - and not many of them make much sense at all. Fewer words, fewer threads, and more logic would make a lot more sense to me. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: C-flat Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:47 AM The production of this tape, at a time when support for the war on Iraq is weakened by the Nato split, is either quite a stroke of luck or a piece of gamesmanship that even Saddam Hussein would be proud of. My initial reaction was "Do they think we're stupid?" but I suppose only the "intelligence community" know the truth of this tape. It's being described as "conclusive" proof of a connection between Bin Ladens terrorists and Iraq, but on the tape Bin Laden describes the Iraqi government as "infidels" which doesn't sound like a cosy alliance to me. All this coincides with a high profile stepping up of security at Heathrow airport with several hundred troops being drafted in and light tanks.TANKS? Are we expecting an attack by armoured vehicles? What else would the tanks be for? Unless it's designed to make maximum press. I am not against ridding the world of evil men like Bin Laden and Hussein but hate the creeping feeling of manipulation by both the American and British governments. There would be a lot more support for an honest approach to these problems than there is for this present debacle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Gervase Date: 12 Feb 03 - 03:23 AM Agreed, C-Flat. Conclusive proof? My arse! If Pitcairn was facing a massive military invasion by a US-led force, I imagine Osama would be pledging full support to the people of Pitcairn. As for the authenticity of the tape - it's probably genuie, but when was it made? On it Osama refers to the attack on Tora Bora last year. Oops, that was in 2001, two years ago. Colin Powell seems to have read a transcript before Al Jazeera even broadcast the tape - Al Jazeera is an independent station that would not knowingly pass material on to a country seen by most of its viewers as hostile. So how long has this cassette banged around in diplomatic bags and boxes before being passed to Al Jazeera, and what route did it take to get there? However, it does play nicely in the light of Powell's desperate attempts to prove a link between Iraq and Al Queda. You have the world's number one bogeyman pledging support for the world's number one (or is that two, or even three) hated nation. If you're a little dim and like your facts served up in sugar frosted sound-bites by an uncritical media, it's convincing. Hell, it's all the proof we need. Let the tanks roll!!! As for the tanks at Heathrow, I wonder what use the Scorpion would have been if things had gone pear-shaped? A 76mm rapid-fire cannon seems a little OTT. It wouldn't surprise me if the shells had been left behind just in case some eejit ballsed up. Made good telly, though, and may have deterred a loon from doing something unpleasant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Feb 03 - 04:56 AM On British TV news Colin Powell was shown before a committee (Senate committee?) explaining that this tape of "Osama Bin Laden" (and Colin Powell put in the little quote signs by hand!) would be heard during the coming day. Not only does it seem strange that Al Jazeera would make a preview available, but who gave the tape to whom? Surely it is not beyond the wit of the US government to have a tape made up which will support their, unpopular, case for taking America to war. If they could then get the same tape plyed by Al Jazeera it would lend it credence. Also, if the tape were produced by the US security services from known records of Osama then they would know (in advance) the likelihood of anyone being able to show it was not genuine. Or am I just being cynical?? Nigel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:44 AM Let me start with something simple, a correction: Mark is wrong in stating that all previous Bin Laden communications were by videotape. The last one in November 2002 was also by audiotape (though experts still debate whether it was Bin Laden's voice). Now the more difficult part, the evaluation. I completely agree with C-flat that the content of the tape is far from conclusive for a case of collaboration, rather the contrary. And that in itself is the strongest argument against the Bobert and Mark conjecture. The CIA or whoever doctors a tape with 'Bin Laden' and forgets to make the case more conclusive? And tells Powell to speak about it too early to raise doubts? Sorry, but that seems very far-fetched. An Al Jazeera journalist not know for any sympathies with the USA states unambiguously that Al Jazeera got the tape the same way as all other tapes. Do you mean to imply that all those other (video)tapes come from the CIA as well? GUEST might be delighted by such an idea. You have a strong case against your conjecture, in my opinion. That does not necessarily mean that 'Bin Laden' is actually Bin Laden. We are not talking about only two possibilities here, either Bin Laden or a CIA plot. I think it is probable that the tape comes from people close to Bin Laden's world view or, perhaps but less sure, from the man himself. The content is exactly what I consider to be his (or his peers) opinion on the war on the crusaders and on Saddam whom he despises. So it is nothing new and the timing fits too. Al Quaeda, if it does not want to loose its standing among Moslem extremists must comment upon the Iraq war. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: GUEST Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:49 AM No Joe, you don't get the censorship issue. And I'd say you have travelled quite a ways down the slippery slope already. You censored a thread I started on Kurt Vonnegut interview, which wasn't related to any other discussion. Your reason? It was (your word choice) "frivolous" and I was "abusing my thread-creation privleges". Fine and dandy. I'm the guest a lot of people love to hate, so of course no one will come to my defense. But then you went after Bobert, a guy some people love to hate, because they disagree with his politics and are "tired of war". Kind of reminds me of that poem by the pastor..."First, they came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew, so I did nothing." That is the dynamic of what is happening here, though of course I understand the two aren't remotely equivalent in terms of outcomes. You don't like the PEL threads, you start needlessly messing with people in those threads. You don't like the war threads, you needlessly start messing with people in those threads. Don't like me, one of the prolific guests, you start messing needlessly with me. The point is Joe, the "rules" you are applying aren't being applied equitably. They are being applied selectively, to people and subjects you personally don't like. You are being petty and vindictive. But worst of all, you are setting a very bad example. If you don't want people to initiate flame wars, then why are messing with certain posters you obviously don't like? That is an abuse of your power and authority in your position at Mudcat. A link to an interview with Kurt Vonnegut is somehow a danger to the delicate balance at Mudcat? C'mon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Bagpuss Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:57 AM It amused me just how quick the bosses were to accept this one was genuine - after reading only the transcript - compared to previous tapes. Perhaps thats because the content can be fitted in nicely with the war plans. I think it might very well be genuine, but that doesn't mean I believe that the claims of an Iraq, Al- Quaida are true. I just think that this war suits bin Laden and his followers as much as it does the US. First he seems to want all out war between the west and the muslim world. A war in Iraq will help to polarise opinions between the two cultures and push more muslims towards extremism. Secondly, Iraq is not a fundamentalist Muslim nation, but many of the opposition groups are. Get rid of Saddam, and these groups will most likely form a major part of the new government. Another winner for bin Laden. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Feb 03 - 07:26 AM Guest: another long rant which has nothing to do with this thread (even if it is labelled 'BS'). Most of us appreciate the job Joe is doing. Couldn't your post have been placed in your Miscellaneous BS thread. But doubtless it would have not found as many readers as most would bail out after the first few messages. Bobert: Sorry to clog the thread, but I did also post an opinion earlier, and I feel this had to be said. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: GUEST Date: 12 Feb 03 - 07:28 AM Bully for you Nigel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Willie-O Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:08 AM Politics is full of examples of people and parties getting unwanted support from pariahs. I find it easy to believe the tape is genuine, although Powell's advance knowledge of it is certainly suspicious (not conclusively so). There is no doubt that Bin Laden wants to encourage armed conflict between the U.S. and Muslim nations; he wants to recast it as a holy war, which will enhance his status and provide all kinds of intriguing possibilities for him to recruit new operatives and start new operations all over the world. He and Al-Quaeda obviously had nothing to lose by releasing this tape. The fact that it's awkward for Saddam is no concern of his; he hates Saddam, who gets to be everyone's pawn. Saddam wouldn't align himself with Bin Laden, he is trying to avoid having his country invaded, not to make it a certainty. But it sure makes sense that Bin Laden would particularly want to enflame the chances of a huge U.S. military invasion of a country where Al-Quaeda isn't based. I mean, duhhhhh? The Afghani thing was a lot less convenient for him, to put it mildly. I think he's spent the past year rebuilding the A-Q network in a widely-distributed format of cells without a huge concentration in any one country. W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Richie Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:22 AM I think Bobert has a new topic and should be able to start a tread. He just has a colorful way of stating his idea. I think he's trying to show a connection that the tape was somehow manufactured by the Bush administration to strenghten their case for war in Iraq. Bobert- is this what your general point was? -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:35 AM I really don't think it's right to say we are buried with threads related to the proposed war. A rapid scroll through the forum seemed to throw up about a dozen who could be described that was, out of 200 plus threads in all. And many of them, not all, but I'd say most, seem to be on significantly different aspects, which mean separate threads are more convenient. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Willie-O Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:46 AM Note to Doug et al: the word "partnership" to describe the purported realtionship between Bin Laden and Saddam was used by Colin Powell, not Bin Laden. I mean, come on. The spinmeisters are in full gear today and they'll earn their outrageous fees if they can make a convincing case out of an uncorroborated statement by an egomaniacal fugitive with his own clear agenda. Here's a good one: U.S. plans don't include Iraq occupation, a Salon.com article which goes on to explain just how much planning the U.S. is doing for Iraq's future, in such a manner that I don't know what they could call it but an occupation. Here's a real knee-slapper contained in the article: "CIA Director George J. Tenet told the Senate Intelligence Committee that prospects for stability in Iraq will be increased by rapid repair of critical infrastructure, delivery of food and the quick creation of a multiethnic coalition government that includes Sunnis, Shias and Kurds." Yup. Want to get your country fixed up quick? Call the CIA! They have a plan! They'll make everybody be friends and play nice, and send in milk and cookies. Sheeee-it. W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osama bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:47 AM The one thing that seems pretty clear to me is that whoever provided this tape is seeking to increase the likelihood of this war. So that could be "Bin Laden", or it could be the US Government. Either way it doesn't do one bit to provide any kind of evidence about Iraqi links with Al Qaida. Even if it's genuine, all we hear is Bin Laden slapping the Iraqis on the back with a knife in his hand. This war must suit the people who organised September 11 down to the ground. September 11th was a matter of lighting the fuse, this is the explosion. Perhaps they are wrong in guessing that the long term outcome of this will be an isolated America in a world that has turned in the direction Bin Laden dreamed off, but to me it seems pretty certain that that must be what they hope to achieve, and that this war on Iraq will be seen by them as a very significant step in that direction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:44 AM Partial transcript of tape (I'd appreciate a link to a full transcript) I have a hard time imagining the US government threatening in such a tape supporting regimes with overthrow and (reluctantly) supporting leaders with murder to further their case. The line 'socialists are infidels' (a German partial transcript, however, could have been written by the US government (grin). I am at a loss of understanding how someone having read what was said in the tape can come to the conclusion that the purpose of this tape is to make war more probable. Giving advices to the population how to fight effectively, threatening murder and bloodshed to American allies, telling how to win agaisnt the infidels is not a very effective pro war propaganda. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:45 AM I also have a very hard time to read in this tape anything remotely similar to Powell's summary. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:55 AM Here's what seems to be a full transcript Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Bobert Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:55 AM Richie et al: Yes, I do believe that the Bush administration has usurped way too much power. I don't feel as if I am now a member of a *representative* government when information is so mainipulated by the government and the media. I don't think this bodes well for the survival of democracy. With that said, I still love America as it is the only country that I have ever lived and because it has the *potential*, with its might, to lead mankind further down the raod toward being *civilized*. Now as for my friends, Doug. Remember when you used to call me a "liberal" and I asked you to not do that because it is not a label that fits me too well... and so you stopped. I'd like to ask you now to stop making satements that I am in support of Saddam's regime, for I am not. You will find no reference anywhere that supports your statement. To be a proponent of peace is not the same as supporting bad people. I am consistent in that. My premise going back to my 2nd post here at Mudact when I started the "Department of Peace" threadf is that there other ways to promote peaceful coexhistence rather that blowing folks up. So, I'll ask you, my friend, to cease linking me to a bad person, thank you. Now come on over here and get a big hug. Peace, Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM What does this advice in military terms amount to? Dig lots of trenches - and "martyr operations". "Wow, we'd never have thought of that if he hadn't said so" the people being addressed must be saying. The main effect of this tape is to play into the hands of those who are determined to make war. It could be expected to generate support and undermine opposition, and it is timed precisely to achueve that effect. And if there are any major terrorist attacks in the next few days, the same will be true of them, and I am sure that would be their aim. Why do people seem so reluctant to try to think beyond the next move? This is chess, not conkers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: DougR Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:10 PM I don't believe Saddam and Osama are buddies. But they do have a common bond. They both hate the West and particularly the U. S. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Willie-O Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:12 PM Thanks for posting that link, Wolfgang. Now I've actually read the damn thing (which hurt my syntax-meter badly), I get a much better sense of it. And I find it entirely credible that it was made by Bin Laden. For those who don't bother, a lot of the tape is taken up with an "inspirational war story" about the battle of Tora Bora, during which he claims his fighters suffered minimal losses because of the effectiveness of their trench system in that terrain. (He conveniently ignores the totally different Iraqi desert terrain for which he is urging the same defensive tactic) And yes, he heaps scorn on "socialist infidels" like Saddam. Also on "cowardly" American soldiers, in such a way that I don't think the US gov't would have produced this type of disinformation, since they want Iraqis to lay down their weapons in the face of the US juggernaut, not to inspire them to hand-to-hand guerilla warfare. And Wolfgang, the reason it makes war more probable, marginally, is that secondary reason of providing the US with a (not very good, but the gullibility of the US media & public is remarkable) link between the new dubious bogeyman (Saddam) and the old, real bogeyman (OBL). Bin Laden wants this war, is confident he'll get it, and is grandstanding to use the situation for his own purposes. W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: GUEST Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:21 PM The latest bin Laden audio tape is a fake. Colin Powell blew it by announcing it's existence 2 hours BEFORE the CIA got it to the studio. Don't forget the 'fat bin Laden' they tried to make us believe was the real thing....video tape of that. This is OBVIOUSLY a CIA operation. Always before, the 'alleged' tapes were withheld for days and weeks so the intelligence agencies could scrutinize them, yet the new one was SIMULCAST on the Army's psy-ops CNN. This is an ARMY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATION. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: GUEST,The Hated Guest Date: 12 Feb 03 - 02:25 PM Oops...don't hit the Tab button before you're finished... The new bin Laden tape is no doubt intended to activate terrorist cells around the world...but the voice is phony...not bin Laden's. The CIA is activating the cells. There was absolutely no control at CNN as they broadcast the tape live. I mean, what if coded messages ARE in the thing? CNN knows about 'national security' and 'journalistic integrity' and all that...they were ENCOURAGED to put the thing on live. For related links on other fake terror alerts, etc: Fake Terror |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Feb 03 - 03:24 PM It isn't either either "the full frontal Bin Laden" / or "it's a put up job by the CIA" or whoever. It could easily be both / and - genuine enough footage, but helped on its way by the USA. They may have very different motves, but they surely have an immediate aim in common - setting up this war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Richie Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:16 PM Is it coincidental that there is a code orange alert, the Bin Laden tape, and an escalting sense of paranoia before the war is set to begin? It make me uneasy. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Mark Cohen Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:34 AM You know, when you consider that Bin Laden was "our man" in Afghanistan during the war with the Soviets, that there was a report that he met with a CIA agent in Dubai in July 2001 (the source was apparently the French intelligence service, and I will not presume to judge its veracity), and that he managed to avoid capture or assassination during the Afghan campaign, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he and people in our government were scratching each other's back, at least in some ways. It would not be the first time that one of our Evil Enemies was on our payroll. I appreciate the correction from Wolfgang--and when you come to think of it, the idea that Osama may have some ties to the CIA makes it even more reasonable that the tape really did come from him and not the U.S. Government. I say that because I disagree with Wolfgang on one important point. He wondered how anybody listening to or reading the transcript of this tape could think that it makes war more probable. That's probably because, being the kindhearted and respectful person that he is (I mean that sincerely), he seriously overestimates the intelligence and analytical skills of the American populace. Most Americans have been conditioned to think in "sound bites" -- brief phrases which, when repeated by politicians and news anchors and the words that crawl across the bottom of the screen on CNN, make them think they "understand" the issues "in a nutshell." Given that orientation, the entire text of the "Bin Laden" tape boils down to one sentence: If it's real, then "the charge that Saddam is in league with Osama would be proven." (I'm quoting one of the posts above.) It doesn't matter that a simple reading of the text belies that notion. That is what the President has told the American people they should think about this: Iraq = al Qaeda = terrorism. Period. End of discussion. That is supposed to nullify all those silly liberal objections--and, he hopes, those annoying French and German and Russian objections--to the war. And that is why, in my opinion, this tape does make the war more likely--or at least, it was intended to do so. And why it was probably in both Bin Laden's and Bush's interest that it was released. OK, I'll go back to my ukulele now. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:23 AM Mark, I wish I could write so nicely and moderately worded posts as you (actually I can and I hope this post is a positive example, but you do it consistently and I sometimes fail in this repect). You disagree with me on one major point but I don't disagree with you on this point. I also do think (and you have made a good point on how the Americans react to one single sentence distorting the message of the tape) that the effect of the tape will be to make war more probable. But I had written that I think it was the purpose of the tape to make war less probable and I still think so. Let me ponder a short while about this difference for many many Mudcatters fail to make this distinction, especially in the politics threads. For instance, when I named human shields 'useless idiots' in another thread I came at least dangerously close to mix up the noble purpose with the bad effect I expect from that action. Without mentioning other names (the offenders are on both sides of the pro and anti war factions and it happens more often than once a week): Saddam's buddies, Bush's buddies, war supporters, Saddam supporters and whatever words have been used, this type of argumentation fails to consider that when we think that the position of someone else in these discussions has what we consider an evil effect we should never assume that the debater wants or approves of these consequences. Mark, you're never in that league of offenders, so I'm sorry I used your fine post to make this point. I had even considered to start an extra thread with this point, but I think we have enough politics threads right now so I bury this argument here. Wolfgang (BTW for Mark only: Hawaii is the only state of the USA in which I have ever been. So when I am asked 'Have you been in the States?' I respond 'yes'. Then they ask me 'where' and when I respond 'Hawaii and nowhere else' I can feel or even am told that they think I should not have responded 'yes' to the first question. But that's a different topic) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:39 AM What do you think of the newest Bin Laden tape in which he(?) says he'll soon seek his own death as martyr. CIA again? I think if these recent news find corroboration (the tape has not beeen published yet) it fits the man Bin Laden and his way of thinking. And this time I'm sure the US government and Bush hope the tape is real and he is true to his word. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Feb 03 - 06:09 AM I suppose it depends how you define purpose - I mean if you know something is going to have some effect, is it part of your purpose or not? If it's something you would rather not happen, probabaly not. If it's something you would like to happen, yes, even if it's only a secondary purpose. So in this case I'd think that helping make the war more likely probably would have been one of the purposes of those who made the tape and made sure it got to Al Jazeira TV (who might not necessarily be the same people.) But I would think that for the TV Station such a consequence would be an unwanted secondary effect. On the other hand, for at least most proponents of the war, the inevitable civilian deaths are surely an unwanted effect. The only people who might actually want such deaths - apart from the psycopaths you get from time to time - might be people who would see them as a valuable way of generating hatred towards America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Osoma bin 'Forgotten' Remembered... From: NicoleC Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:10 AM Gut feeling... it's a fake. It's too conveniently timed to resurrect public sympathy in America for a previous cause, and the actual content is irrelevant for that purpose. It's also possible that bin Laden is being set up for a "terrorist" attack that will conveniently happen or be "prevented" right before the bombing starts. I think it is also wrong to assume that everyone in the west wants Iraq to surrender peacefully. However, if it is a fake, it may not be a CIA/US fake, although that's the most likely culprit. There are other characters at work. But it may be 100% real, too, and we are unlikely to ever find out for sure. I have a hunch historians will be arguing over the authenticity of these various bin Laden tapes for decades to come; the only proof that may solve the mystery may be declassification of government documents that blow the lid of the mystery, which happens from time to time. |