BS: Millions Marching for Peace!

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 05:17 PM

It's just that, Old Guy, you seem to be saying that people who don't march against the government can be counted as supporting the government. It seems to me that it works just as well the other way round.

Back in 1968 one of the crucial things in keeping De Gaulle in power was a massive march in his support, to counter the massive march calling for him to go.

If people don't care enough to stand up and be counted it doesn't sound as if they can really care too much one way or another. The people who marched on Saturday, in London anyway (which was the only march of the day of which I have direct experience) were mostly not the kind of people who go on marches. All the evidence is that for a large majority it was the first time in their lives they've done anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM

I stand up and I am counted on Election Day.

Then I pay my taxes. Then I abide by the laws. I treat other respectably. What else do I need to do?

It seems marching around with a sign and hurling insults at the authorities I voted for is being disrespectful. To have both sides marching leads to conflicts that frequently result in violence, burning and looting.

I saw a good demonstrator's sign on TV recently. It was an African nation on the west coast of Africa where people were being exploited somehow. There was a group of black people holding sign saying "Help us Bush"

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:54 PM

Of course "Help us Bush" could mean quite a lot of different things, some of them nothing to do with Dubya at all.

"I stand up and I am counted on Election Day.

Then I pay my taxes. Then I abide by the laws. I treat other respectably."

That's what they did all those years in the USSR; and in places like Iraq today. In itself it doesn't necessarily add up to democracy. There's got to be some sense in which your contribution registers.

Probably most of the people on Saturday in London voted for Tony Blair, and those who didn't pay their taxes and generally treat other people respectably. Public demonstrations are part of the very fabric of democracy, a feedback which politicians badly need. Anybody who seeks to interfere with that is a kind of traitor to democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:03 PM

Old Guy, to me, personally, the vision you have of democracy is very different than mine, or that which I think the Constitution represents. You seem to feel that the only influence citizens should have is once a year (or thereabouts) at elections. As imperative and important as voting is, the problem with this, to me, is that the only people that ever discuss issues are then the politicians. ANd lord knows most of them have nothing of substance to say, and frequently lie about it anyway. Just voting isn't much of a choice when both (or more) candidates are all equally inept.

"Demos" = People
"Kratos" = Authority

If the authority is invested in the people, then the definition of a democratic citizen is one whom exercises influence over their representatives and holds them accountable for their actions. Citizenship is not passive, it's an active responsibility. We may elect representatives for the sake of expediency, but that doesn't mean that representative then takes on dictatorial powers until the next election.

Freedom of speech is not just enshrined in our Constitution because it's a nice idea. The framers understood that words and free action are some of the most powerful weapons that can be wielded against a government which acts against the interest of the people. If history has shown us anything, it's that politicians aren't perfect, governments are corrupt, and democracy works best when the citizens are involved and paying attention. Freedom of speech is necessary to inform the citizenry of all sides of the issues at hand; free elections cannot be held without a free discussion of the issues.

It's not disrespectful to speak up when we disagree with the government, it's our civic duty. This year, the government wants us to go to war. You may agree 100% with everything THIS administration says, but if the government is the only one talking, you can't make an informed decision. What if they were saying something else? Would you meekly accept that you must just be a stupid citizen, and the benevolent government knows better than you? Democracy = People-Authority. It may be a great priviledge, but the government is also the responsibility of every citizen.

I'd like nothing better than to have my elected representatives in Congress holding an open and meaningful discussion about the pros and cons of the situation in Iraq. When they don't uphold their constitutional responsibility, it falls on the citizenry (People-Authority.) to hold them accountable. They represent us and our opinions, not dictate those opinions to us.

You mentioned earlier that you thought the protestors weren't accepting the majority opinion. That's not true -- if they weren't, there wouldn't be peace marches, there would be open rebellion against the government. It's nice to chat and write emails to your Congressperson, but showing up in person is the ultimate expression of your participation in a democracy. I'm sorry you don't understand what an incredibly historic event happened last weekend that so many millions worldwide turned out to protest a war before the first bomb was dropped. It was utterly unprecedented. Voices and opinions were heard. Now the politicians of the world can choose, or not, to heed them -- that's representation in action. What does it say about the power of this protest that countries like Syria and Lebanon that have no real precedent of free speech found the power of democracy by the hundreds of thousands? Impressive. Almost overwhelming.

I'm glad you vote; too many people don't even bother to do that anymore. Most of them don't feel like their votes matter because the policians don't listen to them no matter what they do. Maybe they need to state their opinions more often, not less.

/philosophical mode off

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

Kevin - your old enough to remember Viet-Nam, did you not march then ??

Oh and in case anybody misunderstands my point, we were accused then of supporting the Comunists/Viet Cong/NVLA.

And I've no regrets to have done so.

Gareth

"Ho Ho Ho Chi Min"

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:21 PM

Of course I marched then. My point was that for most of the people on the march it was their first time out, and I pointed that out because it is an indication of the width of unease at what is going on. In a way going on a march has an even greater symbolic meaning when it is someone who is breaking a habit of a lifetime. Like the first time you sing a song in public, it costs more.

Reading what Nicole wrote there I realised why that phrase of Old Guy "hurling insults at the authorities" had made me feel so uneasy. The point is, in a democracy, the bottom line is that we are the authorities, and the people we employ to take care of business have a duty to respect us, rather than the other way round, as would be the case in an autocratic system or an oligarchic system. (Though the truth is, in practical terms we do live in an oligarchic system.)

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:21 PM

mcgrath of harlow, are you saying things havent changed in Afghanistan? Idont see any people being shot in soccer stadiums.
Did you expect changes overnight? The country is devastated from years of war and neglect by the international community.
IT will take years to rebuild, and consolidate - by the Afghans themselves.

- theres nothing wrong with protesting and marching for peace,
the Vietnam war - was ended by the tide of public opinion
and rightly so.
on the other hand - a lot of people were opposed to the US action in Afghanistan, as were the gulf war in 91. And I doubt that either could have been solved through diplomatic means.

those protesting against any action against Saddam, are saying that thousands of innocent Iraqi people will die. Thousands of innocent Iraqis have already died, an estimated 100,000 Kurds not to mention the Marsh Arabs, the Shia minority etc. Its a safe bet that many more will die if he continues in power.

it comes down to whether one believes Saddam is continuing to build wmds. If the Israelis hadnt bombed the Osirak nuclear reactor in 81
he would have had the bomb years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 11:00 PM

Here, print off a poster!

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:38 AM

Nicole: the subject of what to do with Iraq was debated in the Congress. Congress voted to allow Bush to do as he saw fit. I think the problem you have is he is not doing what you think he should do.

I think it is fine for people to march if that's what they want to do. I don't think it has much affect on what the government does however. If it makes the marchers feel good, that's fine.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM

No Doug, my problem is that the Constitution clearly states that only Congress can declare war, not the President and not the Judiciary, and I feel that our Congress has abdicated their Constitutional requirement to exercise that duty. Any resolution that says, "yeah, do whatever you want" is a pathetic passing of the buck, and unconstitutionally transfers powers to another branch of the government. It's Congress' job, dammit, to be discussing this!

When folks try to justify war, they always point to WWII as an example of a just war. I agree -- there was a clear example of a tyrant who could not be removed or swayed except by war.

Is it just coincidence that that was the last time Congress reached a specific accord on war, instead of weaseling out of the job?

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM

The reason that you will never see a "pro-war" rally of the kind that we just saw against the war is that the "pro-war" types ane not the kind that you can galvanize with slogans. They are not collectivists or socialist types. They tend to be more individualistic and iconoclastic.
That's not the kind that goes to mass rallies. They'll work quietly on their own for something they believe in but rarely will they join with the like-minded and march.
The anti-war protesters find their strength in numbers and use the fact of millions marching as proof of the rectitude of their position. With so many supporters, they must be right!
And then I recall the mass demonstrations that Mao used to stage.
Based on what I have read, seen and gotten from friends in Europe, the main sentiment there was not anti-war but anti-America. We are the big dog on the block and they are irrevalent on the world stage.
To conclude, the statement was made that only Rush and Hannity conspiracy theorises would believe that the proteses helped Saddam.
To the contrary, only the most naive would think that it did not.
The only thing that has gotten Saddam to cooperate the little bit that he has, has been the threat of force. Mobilize the troops and the inspectors are allowed back in. Put another carrier in the Persian Gulf and suddenly the Iraqi scientists are allowed to be interviewed. Etc, Etc.
Watch and see if his stance doesn't harden again by next week. You may say that it's not because of the protests but will you truly believe it?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:30 AM

I think your assessment of the personality types is hysterical, Troll. There are all kinds of people on both sides -- but to say that someone who protests is the kind of person who just goes along with a crowd is illogical if they are considered to be in the minority, right?

Particularly considering the masses numbed by TV that will believe whoever is talking loudest on TV regardless of they are saying. If the political commentators started yelling for peace next week, they'd believe that. There'd still be those "iconoclasts" holding out for war, of course -- I'm not saying all those pro-war are all mindless and easily swayed. But a lot of America, sadly, is.

Truth is, there aren't "pro-war" protests because people who are pro-war aren't trying to change anything or present a different opinion. And that's really all there is to it.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:22 PM

"U.N. inspectors report decline in Iraqi cooperation ..." This is the headline of a Washington Post story written by Rajiv Chandrasekaran and reproduced in our local newspaper today.

"President Saddam Hussein's governiment, apparantly emboldened by antiwar sentiment at the U.N. Security Council and in WORLDWIDE STREET PROTESTS (my emphasis), has not followed through on its promises of increased cooperation with the inspectors, according to U.N. arms inspectors in Iraq." The full article can be found at the Washington Post website.

So, #1. Do you still believe the inspections are "working?" And #2. Did the worldwide marches benefit Saddam or not?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:02 PM

I'll wait until I see what Hans Blix reports back, not try to second-guess him with stories in newspapers that tend to get their stories from people with their own agenda. There are clearly all kinds of complicated games going on, and we are on the outside.

Thee's a balance between keeping Saddam worried enough to be cooperative, and not making him so convinced that he's had it anyway that cooperation wouldn't make any sense.

Here's a piece from today's Guardian which I think gives a hint of the complications - "Blix set to request destruction of Iraqi missiles". This could be a crunch point - and if Saddam is certain he's going to be attacked, whatever happens, it's hardly too likely he'll go along with it. From this point of view the marches could in fact be expected to have helped. Who knows? Who is going to know in our lifetime, till eventually the files get opened and the facts get revealed for discussion by historians?

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:07 PM

I expect that Saddam will destroy those weapons and probably invite CNN in to watch the destruction. What's a few weapons compared to the large number he is suspected of having. Destroying them would convince all you liberals that he is at last fully cooperating.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM

Gee, Doug, what is it *IS* all he has? Yes, he's "suspected" of having weapons, but that doesn't mean they're there. If the inspectors don't find anything, hawks insist they're just hidden. If they do find the weapons, hawks will insist there's more, because it suits their agenda.

You can't prove a negative, and trying to get him to do that is just an old fashioned witchhunt, one in which the bystanders are the ones punished.

And we STILL haven't seen the "proof" the US "has" that was promised us during elections. Wonder why? Maybe it isn't there, and we're just guessing the lady with the mole on her face must be a witch in league with Satan?

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:23 PM

So he'd be best advised not to destroy them? Not so long ago, Doug, and you were saying thta there woldn't be a war, because the whole idea was thatbthe threat of a war would push Saddam into getting rid of anything he'd got - but now that what you said might happen might even be happening, you think what you thought then was nonsense, apparently.

the large number he is suspected of having... Some kind of evidence might be useful to lend force to suspicions. So far as rockets are concerned I haven't heard anything much about large numbers suspected of being in existance.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:47 PM

How can you say he doesn't have WMD's when they were found after the Gulf War. He had Anthrax, VX and Mustard Gas and there is not one shred of proof that he EVER destroyed them as he promised to do.
For G-ds sake people, go back and check the records if you don't want to believe me. Tom Daschle stated in November, 2002 that we knew that Saddam had the chemical and biologicals and that he was working on nukes. Of course, he's changed his tune since then but he did say it and he voted "aye" on the resolution to go to war.
The fact that the present Inspectors have found nothing simply says that Saddam has hidden them a little better than last time.
And please don't try to say that it could mean that there are none because that dog just won't hunt. The WMD's were there in '94. Where are they now?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:51 PM

Am I the only one that heard about the mustard gas that was destroyed (last week some time): per the news report I heard it had been located by the team of instpectors thrown out previously after the gulf war - and per the Iraqi it had been "missed" during destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:10 PM

In Blix's report last Friday he pointed out the the question of whether the Iraqis were lying when they said that the stocks of anthrax had been destroyed or not was an open question, and he indicated that he was on the trail of evidence that could indicate what the actual truth is.

So let's see what he comes up with - and take whatever time is needed to do the job properly. He's said gwe doesn't see this inpection as an open-ended process (though the monitoring aftrwards to make sure that Saddam doesn't rearm, assuming it is determined that he hasn't gotb any WMDs, might well be open-ended, and Blix said that too, and it makes sense.)

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:11 PM

MMario, do you remember where you saw that? I sure missed it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM

heard it on the tube - (I wasn't watching at the time - in fact in the other room so I only heard the discussion about the destruction of the mustard gas) I *do* remember it clearly because my grandfather was gassed in WWI - had permanent damage to his lungs from the mustard gas - so the fact they had it stockpiled registered quite well. also that the location and quantity had been known since the previous team had been tossed.

Probably either fox news or msnbc as those are the two my B-I-L watches most.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

Funny that I didn't see it in any of the news sites that I frequent. Anyone?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:47 PM

Here's a link to a Reuters report on that.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:01 PM

Thank you! I was beginning to think I had imagined it!

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM

I see a bright side to these marches. Saddam will get emboldened by the number of people marching and screw with the inspectors so bad that they loose patience and declare inspections are not working.

The inspectors leave and the alliance moves in. Maybe us "warmongers" should go out and join the marches too and speed things along so our guys are not roasting in those chemical proof suits in May.

Required equipment:

Dirty tee shirt with Marijuana leaf on the back and peace symbol on the front.

Dirty patched up bell bottom jeans

Sandals

Long scraggly hair

Sun glasses

Sign saying "make love not war"

Optional equipment to enhance credibility:

VW Microbus painted with peace symbols, doves, flowers and various anti war slogans.


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM

As long as ya'll are randomy; making up stuff about the "evil" done by peopel marching for peace and not blowing innocent foks up, how's this for an effect of the peace marches:

Millions of middle easterners are starting to think that the west, and in particular the US, is waging a religious crusade against them. Then they are egged on by the likes of bin Laden. (And I gotta admit sometimes it seems like that's the Shrub's plan from this side of the ocean, too.) If it's a crusade against Islam, it's ever good Muslim's duty to defend their faith.

Millions of decadent, western people showed up to say they don't agree. How many terrorist converts and attacks on the west will that prevent?

Subject: Tonight on Frontline
From: Alice
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:49 PM

To add this to an existing thread, hoping I'm not repeating what has already been posted, there is a Frontline program being aired on PBS tv tonight on Bush's agenda in Iraq - after the war.

Bush's Grand Strategy - The War Behind Closed Doors.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

NicoleC:

I might have missed it but did y'all answer the one about should we demonstrate against the people that were going to take out the evil policeman or police force that did somebody wrong?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:11 PM

Dunno, Old Guy. I can't figure out what you are referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

The warmongers are calling us, "peace mongers" and "psychos of hatred".


For a better america... http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/ductapeer.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,old guy
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:16 PM

NicoleC:

Maybe it was CarolC but someone said they were the victim of a heinous crime while the police watched. I asked them if they would demonstrate against someone that wanted to bring the Policemen or Police force involved to justice.

I can't find my post or the answer in this writhing mass of threads. I am not saying she did not answer.


Donuel:

The anti-war demonstrators are calling us non demonstrators "warmongers". I think I'll cry.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM

No, that was me. You asked if I would be willing to dodge bombs to bring them to justice. Hell, no! You see, there's a difference between "bring to justice" and "slaughter thousands of innocent bystanders."

As I said previously, I would absolutely not support any action -- even if theoretically on my behalf -- against either the perpetrators or the police, which wantonly jeapordized innocent lives, whether or not they included my own. One does not achieve justice for a crime by committing more crimes and causing more injustice.

If the Iraqis wished to achieve liberty by spilling their own blood, there would be a mass uprising going on. Instead, a few fringe groups, mostly not in the areas of Iraq under Saddam's control, are the ones rebelling, and none of them agree with each other or will work together. (Save the Kurds, who for all intents and purposes live in a US protectorate, and don't want to overthrow Saddam, they want their own country.)

The Iraq people are not telling us they are willing to die to get rid of Saddam. Instead, they are protesting against what they perceive as American aggression, and supporting Saddam inn response. I would wholeheartly support the US military helping a popular uprising from among multiple factions (i.e. broadbased support) in Iraq against Saddam. But the impetus needs to come within, or it is simply vaguely disguised US imperialism, not a battle for freedom or justice or supposedly "saving" the Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:24 AM

Attention people of Iraq:

We, the anti-war protestors of America, after declaring ourselves to be in the majority and righteous above all others, regardless of what our elected officials are attempting to do, do hereby declare that for your own good, no help will be forthcoming in the form of an attempt to cause a change of your regime.

We have decided that our bloodthirsty military is targeting millions of you with thousands of bombs aimed directly at you instead of military targets. We will not let this happen.

You must hereby quit whining and rise up and defeat your brutal regime on your own while we hold our military in check, that is, if you want a regime change. We are not convinced that you really want a regime change because we don't see anyone marching there with posters saying anything derogatory about Saddam Hussein. Good luck.

Now, where were we? Oh yes. Every body sing: "We will over come, We will over come." (repeat this over and over to drown out any screams of children young and old people being raped tortured, mutilated, soaked in acid, eyes being gouged out, limbs being amputated or just plain being murdered)


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:55 AM

Attention people of Iraq:

We, the pro-war government of America, after declaring ourselves to represent the majority, and righteous above all others, regardless of what millions of people throughout the world are attempting to tell us, do hereby declare that for your own good, we must bomb and invade you in an attempt to cause a change of your regime.

We have decided that our surgical military cannot possibly harm millions of you with thousands of bombs aimed directly at you because we will aim only at military targets. We pinkie promise this will happen with no harm to you.

You must hereby duck and cover while we defeat your brutal regime on our own while we hold our treasonous peaceniks in check, because you definitely want an immediate regime change at any cost. We are convinced that the traitor peaceniks don't want a regime change because we don't see enough of them marching with posters saying anything derogatory about Saddam Hussein. Good luck.

Now, where were we? Oh yes. Every body sing: "Onward Christian Soldiers" (repeat this over and over to drown out any screams of Iraqi children, young, and old people being burned, mutilated, soaked in blood, eyes full of shrapnel, limbs being blown off, or Americans just plain being murdered during the terrorist backlash that we promise won't happen).

TIA

(If this doesn't speak for you, please don't try to speak for me. If it does speak for you,... wow).

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:16 AM

I heard an interesting story on the news today. It seems the City of San Francisco wanted to get an accurate count of the number of peace marchers, so they hired a company that specializes in that sort of thing.
Said company took photos with a camera that was floor-mounted in a small plane of the area where the protest was held. They then enlarged the photos to the point that they could easily pick out individuals. They also did exit counts at the BARTA stations in the area as well as counts on the Bridge and ferrys. These counts were then compared to counts taken at similar days and times when nothing was going on.
The march organizers claimed 200,00 to 250,00 marchers.
The companies count was 65,00 with a +/- 10% error.
Has anyone else seen or heard this?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:26 AM

We the silent non-demonstrators of America, do hereby proudly support our elected government in carrying out their sworn duties. We will not attempt be the judge, and jury for the proposed actions of our government. We will allow others the freedom of speech and other rights declared in the Constitution of the United States of America. We appreciate the fact that our forefathers fought and died to attain these rights. We will bear the insults and derision from anti-war protestors with humility because we appreciate the things others take for granted and we see a better life ahead, not gloom and doom. We will remain silent while they support each other in their defeatist attitudes by chanting their antiwar mantras as they must do to remain a cohesive group. We will have compassion for less fortunate fellow human beings around the world and we will support our Government at great personal and human cost in its attempts to assist those same people, while others are deadlocked with fear of the unknown.
We the non-demonstrators, hold these truths to be self evident.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:27 AM

I don't know, Troll but I doubt that count would be that accurate either. All "counts" are based on "yeah, looks like xxxxx, what do you think, Joe?" Ditto for counts of pictures of crowds, and give the huge number of out-of-town buses coming in and carpoolers, counting vehicles wouldn't be much help.

Usually the organizers double what they think the count is, and the police dramatically undercount... so somewhere in the middle is probably close to accurate :) In this case though, police said 150,000 and organizers said 250,000. If there's a police force on the planet that can make a decent protest crowd count, it's probably the SF Dept. They've have enough experience.

I can't find any news reports on this searching the various wire services and web. If true, I'm glad I don't pay taxes in the city, What a horrendous waste of money.

We will not attempt be the judge, and jury for the proposed actions of our government.
Translation: we abdicate our responsibilities as citizens of a democracy to control our government.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: annamill
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:37 AM

wow! Shades of Vietnam!

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

"We will bear the insults and derision from anti-war protestors
with humility because we appreciate the things others take for granted"

Again, please do not speak for me or mischaracterize my position - that is derisive and insulting! And what exactly are we taking for granted?

"We will remain silent while they support
each other in their defeatist attitudes by chanting their antiwar mantras as they must do to remain a cohesive group"

Again,again, please do not speak for me or mischaracterize my attitude or motives - that is derisive and insulting!

"We will have compassion for less fortunate fellow
human beings around the world"

Many marchers have been marching for this (and leading lifestyles consistent with this) their entire lives (not just since the drive towards war in Iraq began). I support this goal %100 - glad we're on the same team. Unfortunately we disagree on how our government is going about attaining this goal.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:06 PM

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,OldGuy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:24 PM

I am being called stupid, gullible, blind and vague here. I can handle the insults and I feel I can respond in kind to my oponents in this debate. Those that object to it do not have to come here and read my posts.

I just came across some interesting polls. They are at iraqvoice.com

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 03:26 PM

I sincerely hope that I have not called you stupid, gullible or blind. If I have, I apologize. Peace and Music brother Old Guy.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM

Tia:

No you haven't which is very respectful but others have. Peace

I also found supposedly Iraqi Chat rooms at iraqvoice.com

I got into the Baghdad room but nobody would talk to me except to say Hi. Some of them were using english words. I got in the Basra room but again nobody would talk to me but get this, they were playing music. It was a voice chatroom but I could not hear it because I did not want to download the player plugin.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:14 PM

Interesting music page on that site there, Old Guy (I keep on typing Old Gut - if it gets through it'll just be a typo, nothing moe) - here's the index page - takes a bit of time loading it, but after that it's quick enough. I rather like the Assyrian Song2.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:45 PM

Saddam Hussein, emboldened by the recent antiwar demonstrations, refuses to destroy his al Samoud missiles. Hans Blix and Baradei say that the Iraqis are not cooperating. Hans says he might persuade the Iraqis to comply in a few weeks. (ABC news)

Is this and example of the working inspections?

Is it the job of the inspectors to make Iraq comply or the job of the UN?


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:56 AM

There are games of bluff and double bluff going on.

The best hope of Saddam cooperating fully with the inspections is if he believes that if he doesn't cooperate he's had it, and that if he does there isn't going to be an invasion. Every time Bush and Co give signals that indicate that no matter what happens an invasion is on, the possibility of cooperation is diminished. It seems to me that that is a far more likely explanation if what's reported there is true.

Which I imagine is the idea, since I am sure that the last thing Bush wants is for Saddam to cooperate and be given a clean bill of health so far as Weapons of Mass Desruction are involved, because they aren't the real reason for the planned war in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM

The problem is that even if sanctions and inspections work and Saddam does get rid of his WMDs, he will try to get them back. He will continue to divert money that should be spent to benefit the citizens toward his growing number of palaces, 50 at last count, and his secret programs to develop more WMDs.

It is his plan to wear down the UN as he has done before. Pres Bush woke up the UN and forced them to resume their responsibilities.

It will be embarrassing if he does disarm because it will thwart the effort to have a regime change. He may well do that to stay in power but the citizens will continue to suffer.

I think the original purpose of 1441 is to state that Iraq is in violation of previous resolutions, inspections will begin to prove or disprove if he is in compliance and if it is found that he is not in compliance it will constitute a material breach and he will be subject to serious consequences.

I think everyone will agree that he has been found not to be in compliance. The US and it's allies want to begin the serious consequences but other countries want to extend the process and give Saddam more time. Every day that passes give him a better advantage and the allies a diminished advantage.

At he risk of being over simplistic, the longer we wait, the more people will die.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: tar_heel
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:09 PM

oh yea?....well,where the hell were all these millions of protestors when the USA was attacked by the terrorist organization and over 3,000 lives were lost at the world trade center and the pentegon and the hijacked plane that crashed in pennsylvainia?i don't remember any millions of them going to afghanistan,iraq or wherever to protest the attack on our country!...i think you all got your heads screwed on wrong!