BS: Animus vs empathy

Subject: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM

Animus and Empathy were strolling arm and arm
Through the ups and downs of life a'winding through the dharm'
Empathy said "calm, be calm", You're needlessly insistant...
Animus said "gentle souls but rock and roll, I am god's assistant"

And as they went, one badly bent, One leaning his direction
Resistance was an ardent cause for love lost and defection
But Empathy could love, you see, and win without detection
And after a year twas heard a cheer, they gave birth to "Discretion".

So... are they inseperable parts of a dualistic whole, or extremes that resist the better parts of both... Or just reactions to the dull median... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:51 PM

"To be is to do"   Socrates

"To do is to be"   Sartre

"Do be do be do"   Sinatra

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 03:21 PM

They are inseparable part6s of a unified whole, TTR.


Animus (Am HEr on-line):

1. An attitude that informs one's actions; disposition. 2. A feeling of animosity; ill will. See synonyms at enmity. 3. In Jungian psychology, the masculine inner personality as present in women.

The AmHer etymology attributes to INdo-European root amn, to breathe. The first definition is th emost germane to that derivation. Compare anima from the same root form:

1. The inner self of an individual; the soul. 2. In Jungian psychology: a. The unconscious or true inner self of an individual, as opposed to the persona, or outer aspect of the personality. b. The feminine inner personality, as present in the unconscious of the male. It is in contrast to the animus, which represents masculine characteristics.

It strikes me as most curious that the former term was degraded into meaning hostile animus only, don't you think? In any case there is a lot of room for empathy in the more basic meaning of both words.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: leprechaun
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 12:29 AM

Did you see that dog do back flips on the Animus Channnel?

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 12:53 AM

Probably hit and run... kinder like yer posts there leprechaun... ;^)

Amos, I really liked your post, by the way... it stimulated a bunch of good stuff, and I'm still digesting... I'll adress it soon...

Cluin, I laughed... and then I laughed some more. It was so appropo!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 07:17 PM

Ok, yeah... but is the masculine to be forever diluted by the boorish, the mean, and the agressive? I just don't feel like the 'essence' of masculinity is dependent upon the qualities of Animus. In fact I would hasten to point out, that alot of uncivilised activity occurs under the guise of 'masculinity'... but it is born out of weakness and depravity... Discretion, on the other hand...

reason with me. ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 07:48 PM

Thomas:

I submit that there is as much boorish viciousness among women as there is among men, although the deployment tactics are subtler. The two dimensions are at right angles -- the quality of high compassion and free emotion and high degrees of reality and optimism are the positive end of the "z" scale which is usually portrayed vertically. The qualities of antagonism, destructiveness, underhanded hatred, and apathetic deathfulness are waystation on the minus side of the z scale.

Gender-based traits could be an x scale from infinitely feminine to infinitely masculine. That's not a "positive vice negative" metric, just a gradient scale between two extremes.

I suppose the y-scale could be data intelligence, as contrasted with emotio-social intelligence. I think it is unlikely to have a high Z component and a negative Y, but I guess it does happen. It is not unusual for someone who is emotiobally destructive to be very smart about it. Schickelgruber comes to mind.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:49 PM

True enuf Amos... the 'masculine' that women carry around down deep is just as destructive as the sardonic stuff that men flaunt... Gender issues are not as important here as say... underhanded back stabbing remarks, or the allure of flirtation with ulterior motives... which traverse the gender and orientation fanfare... Just two examples... Two sides of the same individual coin... So, while we're at this, what would you say the difference between Siva and Animus is? They are similar I think... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:14 AM

If by Siva you mean the Hindu god of destruction and regeneration, it can't be deconstructed meaningfully to make a comparison with a generic element like anima, or animus. Too many layers of arbitrary mythmaking to define your terms.

You could hazard that animus becomes destructive when compressed by experiences of suppression, overwhelm, betrayal and loss to the point where it is no longer rational, but I would argue that is an attribute of any example of life force in play, not something to go hanging on a diviinity. Animus in the malevolent sense is just one of the states it is possible for life force to get in to -- anima after abuse.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: toadfrog
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:22 AM

All new to me. The only animus I knew about was animus furandi , which is the mens rea of larceny. Is there a difference between an animus and a mens rea?

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 01:20 AM

Wow, toadfrog, you're so outa my league on that one I wouldn't even know where to begin!

Yeh, Amos, I was only surmising my way into a thicket, and I'm all confused now... Animus was defined for me in it's 'negative' sense and I got my poetic license out of my wallet and charged it...

...a feeling of animosity, bitter hostility, or hatred... why does the word 'terrorist' come to mind? Or even 'what a terrorist inspires in others'... In light of this definition, how does one reform/heal feelings of this sort? I know, it's too big, but methinks we're committed... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Annie
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:18 PM

Me thinks healing would come from within and that if Animus is God's assistant, then also must be Empathy. The less durable might find the pain of enmity reason enough to reform. The more durable take a lot longer, or die first.

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 12:12 AM

Amos, your logic is faulty. Men and women are not exactly alike in all personality characteristics. So which is it? Men are more boorish or women? Any woman I know could answer this more accurately!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM

Oh, Annie... To my decrepit and pseudo-soothsaying mind, Animus has the pathetic audacity to ignorantly declare itself as 'God's assistant'... whereas Empathy actually is listening for some sign...

harpgirl, yes, methinks you're on to something there... and, just for clarity's sake, in Jungian psychology, animus is the inner masculine nature 'in women'...

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Peg
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

oddly enough I just finished reading a short story two days ago called "Anima" by M. John Harrison. A fascinating read. In it, an English journalist (the story is told from his point of view) describes his meeting and evolving friendship with a strange character: a man named Choe who seems bent on killing himself by taking unnecessary risks (riding his motorcycle too fast, diving into brick nets on construction sites, working on offshore rigs even though his profession is media design). Choe seems to want to befriend the narrator but also becomes suddenly angry at perceived slights or distrustful when he thinks he has revealed too much. Eventually the two take a trip to the North where Choe grew up and he reveals the details of his first (and only) sexual experience with a mysterious girl in a small wooded grove. He never sees her again.

I remember reading in the 1980s in some literature from the environmental activism movement that a new paradigm shift was occurring, in which the female qualities of compassion, nurturing, conservation and cooperation would replace the male qualities of aggression, greed, destruction and wastefulness.
I think we might have been on our way, but something went wrong. I do think American men are now more likely to vaunt their sensitive, communicative side but sometimes this is as manipulative in its way as aggression or being "strong and silent." Likewise women have made progress professionally but by taking on more traditionally "male" roles they become self-centered and dispassionate.
The key is for both the sexes to balance the positive and negative aspects of these tendencies, which we all seem to have within us. But men are still not allowed to show vulnerability,and women are still not allowed to demonstrate anger. Otherwise they earn the appellation of "wuss" or "psychobitch."

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 03:23 PM

Hey, HG, your understanding of my logic is flawed!! I made the point that this attributes are not close-coupled to the gender spectrum, and therefore it is not "men or women are more boorish". There are three variable axes in the description I offered above. The x axis is testosterone<->estrogen, or gender. The Y-axis is emotional clarity<=>psychosis and failed psychosis and the Z axis is informational intelligence -- theability to understand data rationally. My opinion is that although they voice them differently a person can end up anywhere on Y and Z while being anywhere on X.

'Kay?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Annie
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:31 PM

Application to the individual, instead of society, cancels out the gender variable quite nicely. Thus leaving the Y variable influence-able by the value of Z. One may select any value for Z that they are willing to work for. The question for reform, then, is how sensitive is the Y variable to Z. And what starts the ball rolling?

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Amos
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:47 PM

I think, Annie, that Y&Z can reinforce each other positively or negatively. For example, you can drive a person emotionally mad just by persuading him of enough false data. Some religions are really good at this. AND you can make him (or her) stupid by abusing him or her emotionally.   Good data tends to drive out bad, and positive emoitons tend to heal negative ones to some extent.

What starts the ball rolling in all cases is communication -- getting things said, understood and acknowledged so they can be let go of, or changed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: minnesinger5
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:58 PM

Listen up, ye who enjoy being stuck in the conflicting duality of supposed opposites: It is all bunk, contrived up by Beelzeebub, him (her)self to drive us into unhappy marriages and bonds of bloody botch. You are assigned to read "WE"; "HE"; and "SHE", 3 books by the iconoclast of gendercrap, Robert Johnson (not to be confused with Mr. Hammond's R.j.) When you atrt over generalizing and over genderizing, you end up turning the glorious Anima into destructive Kali. And the thoughtful bard (of everywhere) becomes the present-day popular music business, every Brittney, BeeGee, and Elton J. in its wretched place, cranking out the Kalis and sex criminals. The big beat has cleared the decks of the nightengales and given all the stranded fish to the fratricidal seagulls. Uou all want to know the fate of the entire traditional scene: If you are not (we are not) careful everything will be Americanized and no tune recognizable without strumming guitars and bloody, squaky keyboards. Get traditional, you pop-loving Brits! before your entire culture becomes the lapdog of Columbia. Yours, sincerely worried about it all, minnesinger5

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 05:41 PM

Far too loud on being proud, did Animus contend
Beyond a doubt, with macho shout, persuasions without end
He who laughs in charts and graphs, will reap the ripest reasons
In esoterics quasi clerics bicker 'bout the seasons

Empathy not apathy, finds conflict not enjoying
Supportive first, with healing thirst, inhibits the destroying
And listens well, for stories tell, of speakers more than actors
Present your real, in feelings feel, condone the artful askers

ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Annie
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:28 PM

The poet goes fishing for his own meal. Tempted by the bait, the cats fling themselves into the water and there feed on the fish. Astonished by the site of diving cats, the poet's appetite fades as he reaches for his pen.

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 12:34 AM

Astonishment with nourishment, can not we have both?
And are you sure these thoughts are pure, c'mon now, chant an oath
This rhyming scheme, can not redeem, but thoughts are tiny seeds
And grow they will, at least untill this pen dost more ink needs

Annie, you have a fine imagination, and I'm jealous... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Annie
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 11:03 PM

Not sure where to go from here, but it was a fun romp. Thanks for the meal ttr.

Subject: RE: BS: Animus vs empathy
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 04:25 AM

Animus awarring went, to teach God's word 'tis said
Empathy was heaven sent, but couldn't get out of bed
One sided though their quarrels were, that past was soon surpass'd
Their better half became quite sure the other had trespass'd

So finally, with dignity, arrangements could be made
As if between, new sights were seen, and prospects there of trade!
The pushy one, would share some fun, to stroll the road of kindness
Where both could say, bring forth the day, we're weary of this blindness
ttr