BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

A-hole, are you out of Preparation H? If so, I believe marijuana is effective for relieving pain and irritation from those pesky 'roids. Might want to check it out.

At the least, you might find it satisfying to stuff some where the sun don't shine!

Anything to improve your mood a little ... music's good too ...

;-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: DougR
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:56 PM

Sorry Bobert, but no sell. I've never touched the stuff.

I have become a slave to Charles Shaw Merlot, though, that you can only buy at Trader Joe's though.

Kim: I was just jabbing about the tampon. I knew what the poster meant, but thanks for setting me straight anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:59 PM

It all comes down to "tolerance", A**hole. You are so rigid in your thinking that all you can truely see is "black or white". You tru to project that rigidity onto others here but it ain't gonna wash.

You think that anitwar folks think that anyone who supports Bush's policy toward Iraq is a "warmonger". That's projecting as well as wrong. If we felt that way, then why would we spend so much time trying to argue our case? Well, I'll tell ya why. Because we feel that some folks need *information*. Keep in mind that Thomas Jefferson warned us that the only way this little experiement would work is if we were "informed". Like, I say, "information". Heck, if I didn't hink I had a chance to change one person's thinking around toward peaceful solutions top complex problems then I would be a total idiot to make the effort to "inform".

Now, you accused me of being "righteous". I am, thank you, in the in my walk thru life I practice love and respect for my fellowmen, even when I find myself on the other side of an issue. If that is righteous, then so be it. But I think you would be surprised that I am a member of gopod standing of a couple of my local town's committees that are comprised of conservative Republicans.

Now as for "alcoholism". Yeah, I know a lot about it. In my prior life I worked as a jailhouse teacher (GED stuff), in a drug rehab facility and as the Director of Outreach of Rubicon's Alcoholism program in Richmond, Va. Yeah, I know about addicts and addictions and have no addictions of my own, though I'd hate to loose my wife or my old Martin guitar.

Lastly, Mr. Bush: I don't think it is any secret that in his past he has had problems with both alcohol and drugs. I have never driven drunk. Might of fact, other thean getting drunk when I was about 17 years old, I don't get drunk. Bush, on the other hand was convicted of DUI. Do you really think that was the first time he had driven drunk? Highly (no pun intened) unlikely! When Bush says he doesn't drink that sends out a message to me. Hmmmmm? First thing I think of when someone says that, when I know they used to drink, is that they are a "recovering alcoholic".

Now, lastly, the pretzel incident. I don't have any evidence but you are the cop so you put it together. How many lies have you heard? Thousands? I'm sure. Now, here's a guy who has to show up for work with the bruise from "hitting his head on the table" abd says he choked on a pretzel, passed out and fell into the table. There, play cop with that one.

Well, sorry if I missed any of your points but I'm going to take me a ligttle break from the pudder now.

Righteous Bobert (Pompous, according to ttr..)

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:08 PM

McGrath:

What do comments like "illegal under the Taliban" prove? Are drugs illegal in Harlow? If so is the Taliban in charge there?

If someone can compare living conditions in the US to a country where drugs are legal and conditions are better they might be able to prove a point such as it is desirable to legalize drugs.

I thing conditions would be worse so therefore I think it would be undesirable to legalize drugs.

A great number of us have done drugs and decided it was bad, illegal and not worth the risk involved so didn't do it any more. Others did it and felt they were better off because they did not have to face things in the same way any more, hence the saying "reality is for people that can't handle drugs"

I would rather face reality myself and I don't need a bunch of drug advocates dragging the quality of life in the US down.

If you don't like my opinions just go light up and soon you won't give a damn.

I came by this name honestly in a post above

Asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: leprechaun
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 08:22 PM

Peg, I agree that heroin, crack cocaine and methamphetamine are bigger problems than marijuana. However, they are also treated diffently under the law. I keep hearing about people who are serving long prison sentences for getting caught with a joint. I've never met one, though. From my perspective, marijuana is almost legal now. The feds won't even look at a marijuana case unless it involves a hundred pounds or more. These bong sellers pissed somebody off, but they are banking some major ducats. I think the paraphernalia merchants were thumbing their noses a little too much.

And medicinal use is a scam.

Boberto - I don't remember saying anything about pretzels. Is there another cop around here?

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 08:57 PM

Sorry, Lepper, must have gotten you corn-fused with Kojack. My apologies...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 10:11 PM

Lots of drugs are legal in Harlow, true enough, as they are in most places. All kinds of drinks containing alcohol(which of course were banned by the Taliban, and in Saudi Arabia), various ways of taking nicotine - cigarettes, rolling tobacco, cigars, nicotine oatches...And of course there is tea and coffee and cocoa, and coca-cola.

And there are lots and lots you can get in chemists, some over the counter, like aspirins and paracetamol, and some that need prescriptions

Oh yes, and the government in Westminster has decided that it's no longer going to be an arrestable offence to have small quantities of cannabis for your personal use in this country.

I think there most of the people living in various countries where a more relaxed attitude toward cannabis is prevalent - such as the Netherlands - would probably say that they'd rather live there than in the United States, thank you. Not especially because of the drug laws, but because they are good places to live generally, and who'd want to leave their native country if they really had the choice?. (My point in mentioning the Taliban was to remind people that places where they come down heavy on drug use aren't necessarily great places to live.)

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM

McGrath:

Hmmmmm? If things in the US continue on the downward slide, I amy be lookin' for a place to relocate. Hey, I don't really care about smokin' pot but I certainly would welcome a more tolerant atmosphere where a bunch of "rule people" wouldn't be peekin' in my windows.
John Ashcroft is a closet homosexual so I gotta put up with his "holier than thou" intolerance. Getting to look a lot less and less like America every day.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Sam L
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:23 PM

I've smoked enough pot to know it's a very mild drug, nothing compared to alcohol, and less addictive than video games, or internet forums. I balked at the price and the whole hassle of it a long time ago, 5 bucks a full unweighed bag, about five fingers, seemed about right. That was a while ago. Now it's an overpriced commercial culture much like any other, the illegality is a great marketing tool, especially to the young. Much the way rich idiots buy persian rugs they don't even like in a fantasy of themselves as cultured aristocrats, young people buy pot in a fantasy of themselves as outlaws. Both things are about as silly. Old persian rugs are things people made themsemselves for their own houses, and if you don't understand that, nothing you ever learn or know about them will ever make you understand them, really. And pot should be dirt cheap, a poor business prospect, just the little buzz it is, not an overwrought marketing culture.
   But what gets me rattled about it is how people defend the way things are, just because they are that way. It's so unprincipled, unthinking, careless, depressing, dumb. If peanut butter were illegal some certain mentality of person would "feel" certain that it should be, and be glad to feel superior to all those low-life nut-heads. I wish I got some satisfaction, got some sense of superiority from people who can't think of the difference between "reality", and what's reified, but it just depresses the living crap out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:52 PM

McGrath:

You have got some good points there. I was going to mention the Netherlands where you can buy iced tea with LSD in Amsterdam.
I know a student who traveled around Europe and he said Amsterdam was filthy. This leads me to believe that conditions there are not as good as they are in the US.

It would not bother me if all the dope smokers emmigrated there or some where besides here. I get sick of hearing people complaining about how bad it is here. Who is forcing them to stay here?

Fred Miller:
Just fire up some herbs. It is the ultimate cure for depression. What ever your problem is, don't bother to solve the problem. Just cover it up with drugs. The same goes for alky but that is legal after a certain age.

Asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:05 AM

I would like to get back to the article a minute. It said it was a nationwide crackdown with 10 national distributors and 7 buisnesses in W. Pennsylvania, so I don't understand this to be a nationwide thing when they seemed to have focused on one state.
I do however remember quite a few years back they had a crackdown on paraphernalia and shops in my home town were closed down. My only reaction to this was, it gave way to more artists to make and/or create their own pipes to use. My point, like Bee-duby-ell's, it's not going to stop people from smoking, by taking away their bongs.
But one thing in the article I thought was really bogus was this statement, made by chief John Brown of the DEA; He said sellers of drug paraphernalia were just as responsible as others for the illegal drug trade. "They are as much a part of drug trafficking as silencers are a part of criminal homicide," Brown said.
Then you might as well say, the guns and ammo distributors are responsible for criminal homicide and we better have another Ashcroft nationwide crackdown!
Where does this guy come from?
Peace. Rustic
ps. Bobert, I don't know about smoking from alum. cans. Seems like you would be doing some aluminum oxides along with that bud! Now being reefer does a number on memory to begin with, then add AL2O3, we're talking a sure case of Alzheimer's!

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: winterchild
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:17 AM

Interesting thread, folks.

Some points of discussion on the topic;
- I believe that paranoia is supposed to be one of the possible side-effects of long-term heavy use of Cannabis; does anyone know if this is true?

- I know that there is mental deterioration - but that is only significant _IF_ one uses it heavily, for several years - and there is the problem with the tar, but there again, mj is not usually smoked the way cigarettes are (if nothing else, the user is bound to pass out...). Alchohol causes mental deterioration at a greater rate, and cigarettes cause cancer more easily and are ten times as addictive. So, other than it being illegal (which is why I stopped), why is pot so bad?

- I've heard that cannabis is used as a "Thresh-hold" drug, a way of easing users into harder drugs. If it were legal, would it stop being used that way? (or, will it always be a risk that way, since folks high on mj are more suggestible?)

- I think this was addressed already, but if drug money finances terrorism (hey, I thought that was _Cigarettes_ those dudes smuggled interstate to raise money for the Taliban?), would making marijuana legal deny those terrorists income from marijuana?

Jim - yes, there actually _is_ probably a correlation between your quitting pot and starting to write music. From my own past experience, creativity is not as easy while under _any_ influence that dulls the mind. There's a reason they call it "dope". On the other hand, some folks need that dulling to bear unusual pain or harsh conditions. The trick is not to let it become a habit, or a means of avoiding facing something difficult, surmountable, or strengthening.

McGrath; I like what you say. "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"!

Bobert - great posts! Interesting input...

Guest whom some call Asshole - Life is not black-and-white, but a creation extremely difficult to decipher. While keeping one's conclusions simple may be very satisfying, it is unfortunately true that this complicated world seldom matches those conclusions very widely, or for very long.
Making wide-ranging and absolute statements does not usually fit in with reality. Name-calling does not solve problems. Those who yell because they don't like what others say are not listening, and might miss information that would be useful and enlightening (or is that the idea?).
Life is change, like a good piece of music that you play a little differently depending on when and where you are, and how good you are (which itself changes). I hope you will keep this in mind next time you come across an amiable discussion in a controversal subject like this, and flame a little less, o dragon!

WinterChild
who does not smoke, or partake of drugs, and seldom drinks, but who understands that the needs and situations of others may be drastically different.

Winterchild

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:36 AM

Well put Winterchild. Indeed everything is not black and white. However if I had my choice I would rather live in a society of law abiders.
I would rather have the dissenters go elsewhere an quit telling me I am wrong and that the law is not the law.

What would Mr. Rogers have smoked? Nothing? Man, what a square.

Asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Peg
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:46 AM

medicinal use of marijuana is not a "scam" whatever that means...

If you mean it has no legitimate medicinal use you are very wrong indeed. Two good and very legitimate examples of the types of people who could benefit from smoking pot medicinally that I can think of immediately are 1) a good friend who smoked it to get rid of nausea from anti-AIDS medication that destroyed his appetite, and 2) my mother, who has glaucoma.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:09 AM

I would like to know where MJ use originated. Usually the medicinal medicinal benifits of plants were discovered by Indians somewhere.
Who discovered cannabis?

Asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: winterchild
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:22 AM

Peg is right, although I believe they've come up with something for glaucoma derived from cannabis 'though without the THC, but which still treats the disease.

Another very valid use for Cannabis is for those who have fatal conditions of several sorts. Most of those conditions are very painful, and the medications for many of them have side-effects.

Guest whom some call Asshole, while it is true that many people in America break the law, that is true in most countries. Yes, it does seem worse in America, but there are crimes and there are crimes; a jaywalker does not compare to a murderer.
What most of us were saying is that what we call "victimless" crimes should, perhaps, not be pursued with the same vigor as crimes that harm others. We were also trying to determine whether or in what situations pot does harm others. This is not arguing over whether something is the law, but whether the law should be changed. This is why our wonderful country is a democracy. Laws can be changed, and can be discussed freely.

Fred Rogers was a wonderful man, trained in compassion and wise enough not to push his religion on trusting children (some of whom would have been excluded in the process, as he once explained). Can we do less?

Winterchild

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: DougR
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:43 AM

Hey Bobert, maybe you should try Iraq! Saddam is pretty busy with other concerns and "grass" is probably not one of them. Beside that, you could have a front row seat! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: winterchild
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:25 AM

our Guest sometimes called Asshole has a good question; where did the use of Cannabis originate?

WC

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:58 AM

uh asshole....name one american city that is not filthy?

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM

GUEST A-hole, marijuana has been used for millenium for medicinal, religious and 'industrial' (ie. making clothes and rope etc.) purposes. Use of the plant in Africa, Euro-Asia, the Middle East and the Far East is quite well documents by archeologists, according to the
National Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse.

There's information about the sacred use of the plant by worshippers of the 'Great Goddess' (the Hindu Kali-Ma, the Sumerian/Assyrian/Semitic Asherah or Astarte etc.)at
this site.

For a description of it's ritual use in the Ceremony of the Dead by the nomadic Scythians of Eastern Europe and Russia, as well as for clothing etc. click here.

Although you may find the last two links suspect because they are obviously from the pro-legalization camp rather than 'Big Brother', I have encountered this information before at a few other sources, including the Encyclopedia Brittanica (which is quoted in the articles).

Enjoy!    daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Sam L
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM

I believe the oldest known use of cannabis is India, I seem to remember from a book. It was chewed, possibly and it seems somehow likely by the stoner who invented zero as a math concept.

Asshole, thanks for letting me know that alcohol is legal at a certain age, as opposed to cannabis. You are one insightful and observant dude. I think you've brought the discussion to a new level of understanding. I've seen more thoughtful cases made against pot, back in high school, but those guys were seniors. If Paul McCartney had quit smoking pot and worked on his problems, maybe he'd get over his crippling depression and write a few memorable tunes.

   Far from wishing everyone who complained about laws in the U.S. would leave, I think it's part of the whole free speech and process of law. Maybe people who think everyone should shut up and do what they're told should go somewhere else, where that is the deal. It isn't the idea here, and never was. I just wish people who don't use turn-signals would all drive into each other's vehicles and get off the road.

   The effects of drugs are partly cultured, sometimes what one expects them to be. Other drugs are much more troubling to me as a matter of policy and law than pot. The idea that it's a threshold--people make all sorts of arguments when they don't know what they are talking about, and I kind of collect them. Like the woman who told me, aqbout conservation "My husband says there are more trees now on earth than when God created it"! Three years later I met him, and was fascinated, kept looking at his head.

   Pfffft. 'ere.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:33 AM

And for a glimpse into the problems that the love of cannabis caused for our ancient ancestors, click here.

He he he - daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:42 PM

Fred Miller:

The reason I was asking about who "discovered" pot was to try to figure out what the overall effect was on them, good or bad. Does that ethnic group or country still exist?

I have not seen anything good come from use of drugs outside of medical uses. I will now be told about the medical uses for pot. Correct me if I am wrong but if a doctor prescribes it you can get it.

The reason I reiterated the obvious legal age for smoking and drinking is to illustrate that laws to regulate certain substances can be beneficial and acceptable.

The reason I am mentioning Alcohol and Nicotine is because they are not beneficial as drug use including THC is not beneficial.

It just happens that even though smoking and drinking are legal, smoking and excessive drinking are not good for you.

If you want to eliminate the laws against drugs or pot in particular you also have to change the laws about under age drinking and smoking.

As far as drug culture goes should we recognize NAMBLA as well as NORMAL?

Should we do away all of the taboos like incest and rape? Should we have total anarchy with everybody smoking enough grass that we can't or won't hurt each other?

Somebody previously mentioned that American cigarette companies are involved in laundering drug money by trading cigarettes to South American smugglers and getting paid in drug money.

This is true and it should be stopped by the US government. That would be a good purpose for a demonstration that might do some good.

Asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: leprechaun
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM

Daylia - That dinosaur was just mad because the caveman was charging three-hundred dollars for the bong.

Fred - I'll have to agree with you on the addictive nature of Internet Forums. But the pot you and I were getting in antiquity for ten bucks a "lid" ain't the pot they have now, and it ain't mild by any means. These days, marijuana is significantly more powerful than it was back then. No self-respecting stoner will waste money or kilowatts on bud that doesn't get them ripped in one bong hit.

Three nights ago I had a straight shot of delicious tequila and it had no visible effect on me. If I had downed two more within an hour, I might have felt some slight effect. I could have had four or eight more, and actually abused myself. I could have twelve a day for the next year or ten years and then, yeah, in that case, I might be better off with pot. But at a sensible rate, alcohol is not "worse than marijuana."

Peg - maybe you know two out the dozen or so people in the United States who believe, in good faith, that marijuana is the only thing for an actual debilitating condition or disease. But I've met hundreds of perfectly healthy folks who are skillfully scamming the recently enacted medical marijuana laws to get marijuana for nothing more than recreational or commercial use. And you and I both know the laws were designed for just that purpose, to make marijuana laws virtually unenforceable. But they were not presented to the voters that way.

Guest Asshole - Can't we find a gentler, more whimsical nickname for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:15 PM

How about 'GUEST Orifice', or 'GUEST sphincter'?

Maybe 'GUEST rectum-darn-near-killed-'em'?

;-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: leprechaun
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM

That's not actually getting much closer to what I had in mind. If we must do body parts, how about "pinkie" or "lips" or "earlobe?" And if we can't avoid the area, how about "cheeks?"

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:35 PM

After my first post here where I stated drug money eventually ends up in the hands of terrorists, Mr. Bobert proclaimed "You're an unidentified GUEST so I can call you an asshole. You're an asshole."

Bobert will have to give me a new name.

I still say that using drugs supports terrorism. It may not be true 100% of the time but it is true that terrorists raise money by producing or trafficking in drugs. They do the same with charities and they even rake in millions with shopping coupon fraud.

If we are to defeat terrorism we need to address every possible angle that they use against us.


Asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: leprechaun
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

OK, so come on Bobert, let's get this GUEST a nicer nickname. I mean it! A nice one. Come on, show 'em what you're made of.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Peg
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:34 PM

leprechaun wrote:


Peg - maybe you know two out the dozen or so people in the United States who believe, in good faith, that marijuana is the only thing for an actual debilitating condition or disease. But I've met hundreds of perfectly healthy folks who are skillfully scamming the recently enacted medical marijuana laws to get marijuana for nothing more than recreational or commercial use. And you and I both know the laws were designed for just that purpose, to make marijuana laws virtually unenforceable. But they were not presented to the voters that way.

--I think there are way more than a dozen; that's just insulting for you to trivialize this matter and if my friend with AIDS I referred to earlier weren't dead, I'd send your comments to him and see what he had to say. Most unsympathetic of you. Fortunately AIDS sufferers these days have a better chance of longer survival, into the decades, but there are still problems with nausea from medication, and marijuana is still helpful. I have another friend in this situation now. Would you deny him the option of feeling better because the system makes it hard for medical marijuana laws to be implemented?

Perhaps there are people scamming medicinal marijuana laws to obtain pot for purposes unrelated to medical problems. That's unfortunate, and dishonest, but then again, I believe pot should be legal for recreational use as well. The point is, marijuana is one of the best treatments known for the nausea incurred during chemotherapy and the drug cocktails taken by AIDS sufferers. And I do NOT "know" that these laws were designed to make marijuana easier for people to exacpe prosecution. As far as I am concerned, medical marijuana laws are just what they soud like: laws designed to allow easier and legal access to this substance because it will relieve their symptoms.

I agree that the hydroponically-grown pot available now is much stronger than it used to be; but I disagree that people would not waste their money on it unless it provided an instant and very potent high; in my experience, people are often looking for something milder and are nostalgic for the days when the available types of pot varied greatly in strength, quality, freshness etc. depending on their region of origin. This is why I rarely smoke it anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Sam L
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 05:23 PM

Guest, whatever Bobert will call you. Hunh? Why would we have to change laws about underage drinking if we changed laws about pot? Why not just model the laws about pot on the ones we have for drinking, and leave them as they are? What does it have to do with taboos about incest and rape? And anarchy? I don't follow any of that at all.

Leprechaun, I don't quite believe that weed is so new and improved. Although I never buy it, I've still joined in once or twice over the years, and I think it's got more expensive, and no better. Drugs affect people differently, but I think alcohol is much meaner. I know people who can't have one drink without fear of wrecking their lives. You can compare sensible use of alcohol to insensible use of pot, but what's the point of that? All these questions get harder for me with toxic, addictive drugs. Pot is pretty darn safe and mild, makes you self-amused, then sleepy, like a turkey dinner. What's that drug in turkey called--trypton-something?

I think the benefits of clearing courts and jails and a thriving illegal industry outweigh the dangers of a relatively tame drug, with a bad rap. Cultural biases and fears are attached to pot that really have nothing intrinsically to do with it. I'm getting tired of advocating pot now, since I don't really care. I just don't like the judgemental terrorists link nonsense, it doesn't add up.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: leprechaun
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 06:10 PM

Peg - we're closer to agreeing than you might think. I didn't say your terminally ill friend shouldn't have pot. But the law that made it avalailable, at least in my state, was designed to make it available for recreational and commercial purposes, speciously using "compassion" as a selling point. I think it was done in bad faith by the people who promoted that law, and I need look no further than clever language of the law itself, which allowed the hordes of healthy people to scam, yes scam themselves a medical marijuana card.

Are there any other medicines you smoke in a bong? And if it's such a powerful medicine, why should it be available for recreational purposes?

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM

Leprechaun, alcohol is powerful medicine too - most 'experts' agree that in small amounts it aids relaxation and relieves stress. My grandmother used to swear by her evening oz. of brandy! And alcohol is (obviously) available for recreational purposes!

From the religious point of view, it's interesting to note that wine is found on ALL European altars, Christian and pre-Christian. And it's there for it's 'psychoactive' effects - the slight change of mood and perception that small amounts of alcohol produces, which are seen as conducive to experiencing things of a 'spiritual' nature.

This is the same purpose that cannabis served on the altars of the Goddess in ancient times - to open one to visions etc. The difference is that cannabis is a plant - and an extremely hardy, adaptive useful one that's easy for any average human being to access and cultivate. Unless of course, it's criminalized.   

Booze producers have enjoyed HUGE profits through the centuries in the production of the traditional European 'drug of choice', regardless of it's often disastrous effects on people's health and lives. Cannabis, being so easily grown anywhere by just about anyone, did not lend itself so well to commercial profiteering by a wealthy 'elite' - until the advent of criminalization.

And cannabis, being the traditional 'drug of choice' of the Arab, East Indian and African peoples (the very populations and continents that Europeans sought to dominate and exercise total control over for centuries) - became just another means of criminalizing and controlling the poorer, often non-white 'problem populations' who used it. That's the real reasoning behind the marijuana laws, imo. Opium as well.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 09:17 PM

Okay, okay!

Yeah, I think GUEST, A**hole coule use a new handle, though the one that he has is pretty danged fittin'...

Awww, jus' funnin'.

Well, I had me a few tokes before thinkin' of this *new and imporoved* handle. Hey, I thought that A**hole would appreciate that!

Ahhhh, what's the question?

Oh yeah, I rememeber. ..

Well,in light of the fact that A**hole likes laws more than his guitar, wife of SUV I think I've come up with just the handle for A**hole.

Drum roll, please...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GUEST, rule boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whaddayathink?

Heck, that's GUEST, A**hole to the tee. Never met a rule he didn't like....

Bobert

p.s. Hey, I lied about takin' a couple of tokes GUEST, rule boy, so please don't conspire with Dougie to send me to Iraq. Heck, it's too hot and word on the street is that they're gonna have a war there. Or is it a guest lecturer on the latin names of every azalea? Hmmmmm? Either one, please, depot agent, don't sent me to Iraq...

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 09:44 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 09:48 PM

So what are you trying to say, GUEST, rule boy? Come on, spit it out> Cat got yer tounge?

What, ol' hillbilly got you speechless?

Nah...

Must be a pudder problem...

'er you're stoned...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: GUEST,Asshole ruleboy
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 10:07 PM

So Bobert you worked in drug rehab and don't believe in the rule of law and the democratic process of self rule as it exists now? Why not get into politics and help change things the way you think they should be.

You can call me anything you want except anarchist. Self governance by law abiding people that treat each other with respect is my bag. I don't really have a beef with the way things are now except that some people that are not satisfied try to call the satisfied people square or not as intelligent as they are. Then they use that to justify breaking the law, the same reasoning that gets so many underage drinkers killed or arrested. Ask Bush's daughters.

First pot is legalized then in a few years it is not taboo enough so coke is recreationally correct. Why not legalize that too. Where do you stop? It is decadence. If it is not decadent someone please explain what decadence is.

A little wine is beneficial as per my doctor's recommendation but excessive drinking is not beneficial. Nor has my doctor advocated the use of pot.

Rule Boy

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Peg
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:30 PM

leprechaun wrote:

Peg - we're closer to agreeing than you might think. I didn't say your terminally ill friend shouldn't have pot. But the law that made it avalailable, at least in my state, was designed to make it available for recreational and commercial purposes, speciously using "compassion" as a selling point.
--on what do you base this? Do you KNOW that the legislators who drafted the bill had this purpose in mind? That this is the result of its being passed may be true but how can you be sure this was its only intention?


I think it was done in bad faith by the people who promoted that law, and I need look no further than clever language of the law itself, which allowed the hordes of healthy people to scam, yes scam themselves a medical marijuana card.
--again, just because the language provides for easy abuse, doesn't mean that was the law's intention.


Are there any other medicines you smoke in a bong?
--one can smoke a great many herbal substances; bong, pipe, it doesn;t much matter. Coltsfoot is good for the lungs when smoked, actually; mullein also. Certain herbs are smoked for promoting vivid dreams.

And if it's such a powerful medicine, why should it be available for recreational purposes?
--as I hoped to have made clear by now, I approve of its use both as a medicinal and as a recreational substance. And I think hemp should be cultivated for its industrial use, too.
There are plenty of medicinal substances that people take for recreational purposes that are FAR more dangerous than marijuana. Codeine in cough syrup, for example. Oxycontin and Oxycodone (most phramacies in the Northeast cannot even stock Oxycontin now because of theft; it's a top-selling street drug now) . Demerol (highly addictive). Other narcotics used for chronic pain, available by prescription. And all abused for non-medical purposes.
Why are these substances legal? They are addictive and dangerous. Their sale and distribution leads to illegal and violent crime. Yet we can get them from doctors' notes.
Is the problem perhaps that the pharmaceutical corporations don't benefit from the development, patenting and sale of plants?

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:40 PM

Taxol, which is derived from the bark of trees is used as the mainstay of chemotherapy for women suffering from breat cancer.

Don't know where this info blends into the discussion but thought it was worth mentioning...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: hesperis
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:45 PM

Now Bobert's being the asshole.

Anyway, everything can be used as medication, and pot does not necessarily lead to use of harder drugs. I knew a lot of people in high school who swore they'd never touch anything harder, because that's scary shit.

I still think smoking pot (recreationally) is rather stupid, but it's even stupider to have it criminalized because that makes it a bigger problem than it would be if it were legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Sam L
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM

Guest rule boy, I don't think anarchy and civil disobedience are the same thing, and I think your worry that legal pot will break down society is overwrought. Having done my share of pot smoking I strongly suspect that cheap legal pot would be much less popular than the whole cult of the expensive illegal stuff. I think it was Peg? who mentioned commercial motives in keeping pot illegal. I'd suspect it. The money and the market is more the thing to watch in drugs, legal or otherwise. There's your decadence.
   It's decadent because, like a drug, money puts off the question of personal values, you don't need to figure that out, because with money you figure you can probably get or pursue whatever you value, whatever it turns out to be. So it induces an opium-dreamy, drugged, addicted, morally procrastinating view of life. Maybe we should make it illegal? No, of course not. We should use it responsibly, like anything else. Drug money is about money, not drugs.

I sometimes think advertising can be inherently corrosive, and laws have emerged to control some of the worst of it in my lifetime. When people make links between drugs and where the money goes, I don't see the logic. It's just blaming drugs for the way things are, with money, with or without the drugs.

When I tested for a CDL license there was a law still on the books in IN that you can't shift gears in an intersection--because of the old split-shift busses that would sometimes jam. So I didn't. The Trooper faulted me for going through it too slow, in second, and holding everyone up. Laws should reflect some basic pragmatism, and not clog up all our time and resources with piddly business and old irrelevent worries. Just because something is still illegal doesn't mean that it will break down the rule of law to change it, and just because there are no laws to properly prosecute new crimes like identity thefts and video voyeurism doesn't mean there shouldn't be, quick.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:11 AM

Ruleboy said "Self governance by law abiding people that treat each other with respect is my bag."

I'm all for people that treat each other with respect. But 'self governance by law abiding people' seems a bit contradictory to me. How can one be truly self-governing unless the only laws one abides by are self-created and self-enforced? Or am I misinterpreting what you said?

Regarding 'decadence' - Webster's Dictionary defines 'decadence' as "marked by decay and decline" and "characterized by or appealing to self-indulgence".

When I'm bleary-eyed early in the morning, I'll often indulge myself with some coffee or Earl Grey tea, knowing that I feel more alert after a shot of caffiene. When I'm feeling sticky and yukky and tense I'll often light some candles, burn sweet incense and indulge myself in a long hot bubble bath, knowing that I'll feel more relaxed and content when I step out of the tub. And I often indulge my 'sweet tooth' by providing myself with various forms of chocolate (yum yum!) to enjoy after meals or at the end of a long day.

I know these things aren't physical necessities, and they're probably self-indulgent, but does that make them 'decadent'? Well, only if I drank a couple gallons of coffee, spent most of my time in the tub or ate chocolate by the pound every day! Then I'd probably be setting myself up for quite a serious decline!

IMO if people choose to indulge themselves by occasionally smoking a bit of cannabis, mild intoxicant that it is, this is no different than any of the self-indulgences I mentioned above. Furthermore, unless it presents an immediate threat to my well-being it's really none of my business. In my opinion, the only thing dangerous about cannabis (if it's used with common sense of course, like coffee and chocolate and alcohol) is the threat of being arrested and criminalized for using it.

As far as 'drug money' being used to support 'terrorism' goes, even if that's true (and that's a pretty big 'if') it's no different than the 'support' I give both sides of the 'war on terrorism' every time I buy gas. Most people I know who use cannabis would much rather grow their own than buy it from the 'crime-lords', but the present laws have made that impossible. Want to quit funding the 'drug lords'? Then, in the case of marijuana anyway, let people get back to growing it themselves if they want to use it. Simple.

Cocaine, however, is in a completely different ballpark because it is a chemical, not a plant. Coca in it's natural form is not harmful at all - it is in fact beneficial for the people who live high in the South American mountains where it grows. They chewed on the leaves for millenium because the mild effects helped to cope with the lack of oxygen at high altitudes. And it caused no health problems for anyone until Europeans discovered how to extract it's active ingredient to create a deadly drug many times more potent than it's natural form. And why did they do that? To make a profit! Same old story, very boring at this point.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

PS Just thought of one more danger presented by using pot, and that's the danger to life, limb and wallet inherent in dealing with the often less than virtuous types who sell it. (Like the types who sell bongs for $300). And again, this has everything to do with the present laws and nothing to do with the plant itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:46 PM

daylia, they still use it in the mountains of Venezuela, near the COlumbian border, at least. My Rog was down there and said they put it in their coffee/tea, exactly for the reasons you state. He said it made for some strong coffee!

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Kaleb
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 02:24 PM

Guest Rule-boy,

In my county the law still states that I can beat my wife as long as I hit her with a stick that is no thicker than my thumb. I can do this and still be a law abiding citizen. THAT'S THE LAW.

My point is that just because something is written in a law book somewhere doesn't make it right or just.

-Kaleb

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:30 PM

An anarchist is someone who believes self-governance is possible.

If it were true that a major source of finance for terrorists was drug smuggling and drug dealing, that would be a very strong argument for legalisation. However I think it is pretty clear that in general, the main sources of their money are the same kind of dodgy semi-legal dealings as a lot of other organisations rely on. Property deals, protection rackets, money for favours and so forth.

As for Amsterdam, great place, even aside from the dope - here's the tourist site.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 06:56 PM

heperis:

Hey, Now I'm not too sure how I got the a**hole tag fri mentioning that Taxol is made from a plant, but hey, there are at least a few things in this world I don't understand. Yep, spend three yours yesterday wityh my wife at an "Azalea Lecture", heard so much Latin that I thought I'd I was in some kind of marathon mass at the Vatican and say 3000 slides of flowers that all looked alike to me. Now that's just fir starters on stuff I don't understand. How did my wife get me there? Hmmmmm? Seee, there's another one...

But I think the a**hole tag was out of line considering the post. Hey, there are a lot of healing properties in plants. Heck, I take about ten herabs abd suppliments every day and believe strongl;y that these keep me healthy.

Now "righteous" or "pomposous"? Hey, they're fine.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: DougR
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 12:15 AM

Mebbe so, Bobert, but you didn't mention a great healer that was a mainstay when as a wee tad we could not get ahold of Camel cigarettes. Grapevine! You never mentioned smoking grapevine!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 12:30 AM

I was referring to your previous post, not the one right before mine, as it took me longer to read the thread than I realized. By the time I posted that, several people had posted, including you again. I thought you were reacting a bit too strongly to Guest Asshole in your post previous to that.

I was half joking, not that it matters now... sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 08:23 AM

Well, thankee. Heck I'd take *half an a**hole*... Gotta start somewhere...

Grapevines, Doug? Sorry, but that was before my time. Never tried the banana peels either.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Feds Bust Bong Sellers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:20 AM

At one time people used to say Camel Cigaretes actually contained a proportion of camel dung. One thing about grass is I always think it smells a lot better than tobacco, say when you're walking through a crowd and it wafts over.