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BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15

GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican 23 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM
Deda 23 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM
Greg F. 23 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM
catspaw49 23 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM
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Gareth 23 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM
Greg F. 23 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM
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Coyote Breath 24 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM
Blackcatter 24 Mar 03 - 12:47 AM
DougR 24 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM
Wolfgang 24 Mar 03 - 08:14 AM
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katlaughing 24 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM
Greg F. 24 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM
Bill D 24 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM
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GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican 24 Mar 03 - 11:54 AM
DougR 24 Mar 03 - 12:26 PM
katlaughing 24 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM
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Subject: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030323/ts_nm/iraq_kuwait_attack_dc_10

No comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Deda
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

Here's a blicky.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems there was a mole in the force.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

So? Fragging is something new?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM

Not too new an idea at all........Like friendly fire and accidents, it just wasn't much "covered" before. I have no idea how many Iraqi casualties have been suffered, but the Brits are certainly taking one helluva' hit from US! Some of the horrors of war that weren't mentioned as much in the past.

I haven't heard any certain word that the man in question with the 101st is Muslim.....but would it actually make a difference?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:43 PM

catspaw49-I'm afraid it would. It might not (we can hope) affect the outcome of the court-martial, but it would certainly hurt Muslims in popular opinion, and likely in governmental policy, however unofficially.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

might....so we could be more paranoid huh? Hard to believe, but you're probably right.......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM

Sorry - These things happen in war, we wish they didn't, but they do.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 09:33 PM

Why should the religion of this guy should make any difference whatsoever?- I don't recall the American soldiers in Viet Nam who fragged their comrades being condemned because of their various religious affiliations. This sort of thing goes on in ANY war.

There are vastly more non-Muslims opposed to Bush's 'war' than there are Muslims.

The anti-Muslim paranoia in the U.S. is reaching the proportions of mass psychosis; the Bushite propaganda machine has succeeded in turning the 'war' into a Christian Crusade after all! There's a great deal more under threat from fundamentalist Christians in the US than from any Muslim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:10 PM

Guess we should call you paranoid also eh Greg? I don't think the fragging had anything to do with religion. The individual who threw the grenades was someone who had been reprimanded for poor performance and was being held back from the fighting. His intent was to get even with the officer that caused his stellar career to fail (at least in his way of thinking) would be more my guess. Hopefully they will just haul his sorry ass out and shoot him.

I would however agree with you that we are all under a greater threat from fundamentalist religions - I mean really - Jerry Falwell and his ilk? And what was the pair's names - oh yeah Tammy Faye and her other half. Now maybe if they were to become the leader of the country - I would think we could certainly all be paranoid.

Bush's War? Hmmm - - really? All by himself? Why Greg - no one is that powerful - get real -


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM

The soldier, who changed his name from Michael Kools to Asan Akbar when he converted to Islam, is said to have declared that he "fragged" the 16 men (in three seperate tents, using three grenades) because he didn't want to kill fellow Muslims.

Feel what you feel and believe what you wish to believe but is it really unreasonable for the American public, especially Christians and Jews, to be fearful of Muslims?

Muslims seem to be afraid of Americans. Is THAT unreasonable?

So if Muslims focus their anger on us, and especially if that focus is based on THEIR religious perspective, is THAT unreasonable?

Don't confuse how people react, especially on an emotional level, with a turn to a pogrom mentality. When Americans have the chance to think calmly about events they usually behave reasonably and humanely. In the "heat" of events like the fragging deaths in Kuwait or 9/11 people will say things that calm reflection would have at least edited if not negated.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:47 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot Timothy McVie was muslim.

If we have to be afraid of Muslims (like the 200 I spent the evening with, looing game after game of Parchesi) Lets all be afraid of white male Christians as well.

sheesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:55 AM

Greg F: you speak as though you are a veteran of one, or possibly many wars. I don't think you have mentioned your military experience before. Were you in Viet Nam? Korea? WWII?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 08:14 AM

If it is true that he argues with his faith as one reason for his attack then it is correct to mention his faith when we speak about him.

If not it is as relevant as his sexual orientation about which I haven't heard anything yet and I can't say I've missed this information.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Troll
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM

I'm with you, Steve. The far Right scares me just as much as the far Left does. Fanatics of any stripe are scary.
Doug, I'll bet that GregF doesn't have any military background. Even the guys I know in Veterans For Peace are nowhere near as vituperative aganist the government as he is.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM

Dumbya has no military experience, if you two smug-finger-pointers will remember.

My first thought on hearing of this is a cynical "guess Homeland Security didn't work very well, did it?"

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM

is it really unreasonable for the American public,
especially Christians and Jews, to be fearful of Muslims?


Not only is it unreasonable to be afraid of Muslims simply because they are Muslims, but it is psychotic and possibly psychopathic.

Muslims seem to be afraid of Americans. Is THAT unreasonable?

Most if not all of the third world- be they Muslim, Christian, Budist,
Scientologist or athiest are afraid of the U.S. (NOT of 'Americans') and in the light of the sorry way they have been treated BY the U.S., historically and especially in the last couple of decades, their fear is entirely justified. If they are familiar with the so-called "Project For A New American Century" it would be unreasonable if they were NOT afraid.

I don't think you have mentioned your military experience before.

Your absolutely right for once, Dougie, I haven't discussed it. Neither will I now. Why? First, its none of your fuckin' business! Second, it would'nt make any substantive difference to the points under discusion.

Troll, place any bets you like- its still a semi-free country, until Ashcroft, Poindexter & the boys complete their agenda. However, I am in no way, shape, or form- nor have I ever been- against "THE government"- whatever you intend that to mean. I'm against The BuShite Junta's version of government. And there are plenty of folks in the same boat who are considerably more "vituperative" than I.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM

It was impossible to listen to the news yesterday without learning of this..I do NOT see why it needs to be posted here anonymously.

What in the everloving holy HELL good does it do for US to 'chew' on one crazy incident?

(mark me as pissed, in case the tone of my reply somehow escaped you)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM

Hi, Kat-

There ya go with them pesky FACTS again!!   

Another pesky fact is that Dumbya was AWOL for a year from the weekend-warrior assignment his Daddy bought for him to keep him out of the real war while my friends were dying in Viet Nam. Shame Junior didn't pull that coward's trick in Southeast Asia - they would have shot HIS goddamn sorry ass for desertion- and saved everyone a lot of trouble.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:54 AM

Sorry you feel that way, Bill. RE anonymously, I have a name.

I am also sorry that you think it should not have been posted. A large percentage of what is posted here concerning the war, Bush, and politics in general can be placed in that category, too. Wouldn't leave much to talk about, would it?

I am with Wolfgang on this one. If he did this because of his beliefs, then it matters. If it was merely an act of revenge, it does not. We will probably find out eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: DougR
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:26 PM

Cynical kat? You? Perish the thought.

Greg: I though not.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM

Onya, Greg!

Doug, and I used to be such a pollyanna...:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:01 PM

You thought not WHAT, Dougie? There you go again making up your own facts as you go along. Guess you're delusional MOST of the time. You don't know jack shit about me, whether I served in the military or not or anything else! You really are a piece of work, you know that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:15 PM

Well Greg you don't know a lot about me either. So what? It don't mean nothin' you know? I missed the "facts" part of your thing Greg. You can be quite confusing - I'd say that "piece of work" is just your anger getting the better of you. We used to say, "If you can't hold your mud then don't walk in the rain."

Don't infer Greg and then we might be able to know something enlightening. I must say - you get so excited!

What I learned about the internet is that it isn't all that much. And little gets settled here. Usually it is just a frustrating little exercise in communication attempts. Don't take it so personal - I certainly don't.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 07:33 PM

Well, Greg F., I do know that you are the most vitriolic peacenick I have ever "encountered."

Roger that last of yours, Steve. Over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 09:31 PM

Hey, thanks, Heric. I take that as a real compliment.

Steve: Thanks, Dad. Can I borrow the car keys?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM

>>If it is true that he argues with his faith as one reason for his attack then it is correct to mention his faith when we speak about him.

If not it is as relevant as his sexual orientation about which I haven't heard anything yet and I can't say I've missed this information.

Wolfgang <<

This doesn't help with (a) if he keeps silent about "religious" motivations, when in fact they are there; or (b) if third parties claim that he had religious motivations, but are lying.

See, e.g., and wonder: "You guys are coming into our countries and you're going to rape our women and kill our children."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/24/MN17824.DTL

His motives have to be relevant, but his religion doesn't, even if he calls it "religion." (The only improabable exception I can think of is if he was widely connected with and claims to be or was influenced by people within a particular "religious" organization.) (Was that obtuse?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:27 PM

sorry that last was me without a cookie


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:09 AM

You're right, heric.

The first sentence 'if...then' is valid in my argument, but the second 'if not...then not' is a non sequitur. There are more 'ifs' that could lead to the same 'then'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 10:07 AM

He might have got off easier if he had just refused service. I recall some people doing that during the Gulf War.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM

Closing a thread does not change the truth, try as you may.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:44 AM

I am wondering why you closed the thread about black muslim traitors.
Why do you consider the truth a "racist" statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

Er because it was pretty much a duplicate thread, on exactly the same topic as this earlier one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:17 PM

black muslim traitors

That statement would be more accurate if it said:

"A Black Muslim traitor", or better yet, "A Black Muslim who is accused of being a traitor".

There's only one person who is accused of this crime, and no one has been convicted of it yet. It would be racist if you were to generalize this one man's alleged actions and extend them to the Black population or the Muslim population as a whole. You seem to be doing this when you say "traitors" (plural), but I'm sure that was not your intention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM

CarolC, stick around because this war is going to last a long time and I am sure "black muslim traitor" wiil become "black muslim traitors" soon. As you know the US black population does not support "The War". Maybe a white protestant or catholic will break bad. Time will tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

Time will, indeed, tell, posterchild.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:42 PM

for the record: the closed thread has used the singular

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM

To answer the question posed by vietvet'67 in the disappeared thread: what do I think should be done with this (his words) "black Muslim traitor", I think that his division commander should have an Article 32 investigation conducted under the normal rules of military law. This ionvestigation will, as usual in all allegations involving violent crimes, include a pyschiatric evaluation. Based upon the recommendations of the investigating officer, the division commander will then order the accused released, remand him for medical treatment, or conviene a court martial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM

No on the keys Greg - I don't know enough about you to make an informed decision.

Just seemed to me that you are cussing someone for labeling you on the information you provided, or didn't provide, and then in the same breath get all sweaty about him not knowing anything about you.

If someone arrives at a decision based on the information that person provides - then who is at fault for the poor dicision? I'd suggest that at least half of that would be on the one who did not provide the information.

So in your own words Greg - piss off - :-)

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:30 PM

Aw, Gee, Dad, and I wanted to go to the drive-in......

And no, most persons of intelligence would wait until ample facts were available to make an informed decision rather than jumping to a conclusion or labelling someone "on the basis of information not provided". (Say What??)

C'mon, You SURE about those keys??? :>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM

artbrooks...are you proposing that the US commanders should coddle this sicko bastard and give him more rights than he gave his fellow soldiers. This fuck is a muslim terrorist! Not one to be treated with gloves. His guilt is obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:12 PM

posterchild for jingoism-He will be given the same rights as any other soldier accused of those crimes. His religion plays no part whatsoever, and guilt, however "obvious," is only AFTER a conviction. No "coddling" was suggested, only due process. If you think that that's too good for a man accused of being a terrorist, you're right at home with Ashcroft and the rest of those paranoids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:50 PM

Forum Lurker or any other highly informed person...SOOOOOOOOOO, if this prominent loyal citizen was to be found guilty of this alledged crime, what would the US do for punishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM

Am I to understand that all duplicate threads will now be combined into one? That's never happened before. Actually, I doubt it will in the future. I suspect the topic and the way the question was posed had a lot more to do with it than duplication.

I've heard a lot of talk about how the troops are fighting for free speech, how Michael Moore is a hero for exercising his rights of free speech and now we have a thread closed, for what? Duplication? Please.....   If that's the case we need the Joe Clones to get busy combining threads......cause there's a lot of that out there.

For the record, I don't agree with the implied opinions in the question but he HAS the right to express them.....


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:03 PM

The Uniform Code of Military Justice reads as follows:

918. ART. 118. MURDER
Any person subject to this chapter whom without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he- -
(1) has a premeditated design to kill;
(2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm;
(3) is engaged in an act which is inherently dangerous to others and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or
(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson;
is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a court-martial may direct, except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4), he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

I sincerely hope that this bastard (pardon me, this poor misguided fuck who alny wishes to serve Allah) will be treated as a wartime traitor and as a terrorist. My wish for him is to be put into the general population in a Federal facility. The patriotic inmates will give him all the care and attention that this poor misguided fuck (who wishes to serve Allah) deserves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: DougR
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM

Greg F: I don't recall mentioning "military" in my post. I don't believe I mentioned anything. All in your mind, Greggie, all in your mind. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:32 PM

I don't believe I mentioned anything

True- You rarely do!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

Ok, you leave a thread for a couple days and -


Are people actually arguing what is going to happen to this guy? Are you actually treating an act of murder (if that's what he did) as if the U.S. military doesn't know the process?

As Art said with the adding of the murder art. in the UCMJ, he will get a court marshal and if found guilt receive either life or death. His religious proclivities probably won't even be admissible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM

vietvet'67-Could we maybe try to keep the idea of "innocent until proven guilty?" It angers me no end when people condemn someone based on the fact that they've been arrested. Yes, he probably did it, but the benefit of the doubt belongs to everyone, not just people you like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:11 AM

When guilt is obvious... His religion certainly does play heavily in this situation. He stated that he does not want to kill muslims. His commander (and all commanders) should have the foresight to make sure that these people (muslims) are not called upon to do battle against their kind. To this traitorous fuck we are all "infidels" if we don't serve allah. Wouldn't you want to know who is standing outside your tent?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:32 AM

vietvet'67 reminds me of people in my unit in Vietnam who called ALL Asians dinks or slopes, including the 5th generation American from San Francisco who was of Chinese descent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:51 AM

artbrooks reminds me of certain people in my unit in Vietnam who glean just enough bits and pieces from the whole truth to get good people killed by poor misguided fucks such as the one that this thread is based on. In war TUNNEL VISION has the same effect as friendly fire and politicians...you get your own people killed. The Iraqis are pulling the same ruse as the Vietcong:

1. Hiding among civilians and using hostages as shields
2. Dressing as civilians and infiltrating US forces
3. Faking surrender under the white flag

Wise up, artbrooks, it is obvious that you never faced the enemy in a true combat situation or you surely know that the battlefield is not the proper place for one's head to be up one's ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 08:24 AM

Well said vietvet'67. Living in the boonies of Vietnam taught me a number of things:

1. Your enemy is anyone that looks like one and should be treated
    accordingly until proven otherwise. Unfortunately this scenario
    includes women and children. You have to be aware of ALL the
    people ALL around you ALL the time. And these traits stay with
    you forever.
2. Indoctrination is a powerful tool. The life that these people
    live is all that they know. Their countrie's enemies are   
    their enemies and all is fair in war whether they are in uniform
    or not.
3. Your enemy does not live in accord with the Geneva Convention.
    Believe it, they do not share your morality.
4. You have to be totally aware of your surroundings. As vietvet'67
    stated, tunnel vision has no place on the battlefield. To this
    day I DO NOT walk through a door without looking carefully at
    what might be on the other side and I always (ALWAYS) look for
    a way out of any room or building that I enter. I won't elaborate
    but this practice saved my ass on one occasion.

This list is endless...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 09:45 AM

BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO vietvet'67 and EJ. There are at least 2 in the US with balls to tell it as they see it. Read carefully you people. These 2 have a story to listen to and learn from. Were you commandos or elite forces?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:10 AM

This has turned into your standard moronic racist fuckwit dick-waving convention. Stand Tall, America! be proud of these three assholes.

Have fun, children. Please let us know who pissed highest on the wall when you're through. Bye!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM

GF, And you would surely like to LICK them. The one pissing up high on the wall will piss on your shoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:53 AM

And we can but hope for your permanent exit Greg - you and Peace Matriot are so full of yourselves that Narcissist doesn't fully encompass you.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 10:56 AM

Greg F, there is nothing racist about the truth. The truth is simply the truth and nothing but the truth. Why do have a problem with the truth? Does your religion prevent you from supporting the truth?
You do indeed have a different standard that those of us who fought for this country share. Is it too late for you to enlist and wear a uniform and show that you care for your country? I feel pity for you. The only problem with the total freedom which the United States allows us is that that there are those such as you who run free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:04 AM

WHOA!!! I must have touched a sore spot, huh? Whose "truth'- YOUR "truth"? What makes you think I didn't "fight for my country"?- is it because I find your bombast, bragging and dick-waving childish and offensive? Save your pity for youselves, boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:25 AM

vietvet,

There are plenty vets here at Mudcat and around the country who do not agree with you. You're just one of those typical dudes who can't concieve that they might be wrong.

My question isn't who here served in the military - this is a music site - do you know how to play and instrument? That's what's important at the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:34 AM

GregF keeps refering to USA patrotism as "dickwaving". Be careful EJ and vietvet'67 of waving your "dicks" (I cannot join you as I am la femme fatale) in the presence of GregF. He may think that lunch is being served. And, GregF, I know enough real soldiers so as to know that you did not "serve your country". You speak as though you may serve other agendas. Please tell what you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 11:42 AM

posterchild - can you even conceive that you might be wrong? If not - run for office, our president needs people like you to screw the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:01 PM

Its OK Blackcatter, the Three Stooges of the Apocalypse don't bother me at all- just bad cases of testosterone poisoning & penis envy. I've seen and heard it all before. These clowns don't speak for all- or even most- Vets, thank God, comments about "real soldiers" (gimmie a break) notwithstanding. Infantile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:04 PM

Poor Blackcatter - your president has already screwed you
Poor GregF - poor gregf


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:12 PM

Blackcatter,
   Is playing an instrument a pre-requisite here? You may find a lot of people surprised at that one. I'm not taking up anyone else's cause here but I really hate it when in the middle of a discussion people say, oh yeah? Well, uh, ya know this is a MUSIC SITE!!!!! Music is a common thread (scuse the pun) but it is certainly not exclusive.....

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,troll
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

Getting back to the original topic of this thread---------------

According to Reuters this (alledged my prostestant ass) B**** American Muslim Traitorous Fuck was tackled and subdued by observers who SAW him roll grenades under three tents and SAW him firing his rifle at others in an attempt to kill them. And some of you people are spouting off that this fuck MAY have commited this terrorist act and is subjuct to due process under UCMJ. What would it take for you to nod your pansy heads yes, be in one of the tents?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:52 PM

You know - Greg may be correct - or was is Blackcatter - this is a site that does not necessarily condone opinions that are not directly in the cause of what most folkies allude to "Peace" and the price paid for it.

Truth is relative to the beholder and no one else. In general a truth is a lie as my truth is certainly different from some of yours. Doesn't make it right or wrong - just the way it is.

Whether you are a vet that agrees with the current situation or not is also up for debate. How many vets do you know personally that are opposed to the war and how many do you know that are supportive of the war? So what is yourpercentage and how did you statistically arrive at your consensus. People tend to hang out with people that think like they do so it leaves a bit of funnel vision as to the validity of how many support any given cause.

I seriously doubt that you served in the military Greg. Most vets have learned over time to agree to disagree without being too vituperative in their comments. Alluding to things in any form leaves myself, and this is just my .02 worth, believing that you'd like to have others think that you served as a possibility. The only way I would know is if you were to send me a copy of your discharge certificate. Or your full name and service number - then through a Freedom of Information (FOIA) request at St. Louis I could tell pretty much what you did and when you did it.

Your name calling really is quite old and lacks anything innovative. I'd say the anachronistic colloquialisms are something you read in a book somewhere and lack real insight. But whatever gets you going -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Patriot Miss L.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 12:59 PM

PANSY HEADS? PANSY HEADS, TROLL?

Good lord, in your book, to believe in 'due process' means your gay?

This rather droll thread has indeed become slapstic comedy.

Miss L.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

It has been stated that fragging is something that sometimes happens during war. Why should this man be treated any differently than anyone else who has been charged with this crime in the past?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM

Nort, "full name and service number"? You're a real laugh riot! Just who the fuck do you think you are, lad? And why do you think I give a fuck what you doubt or don't doubt or what you think? MY name calling? Please. Stick to waving your dick. ASt least you're good at it.

Don't you understand
Its not my problem??


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 01:57 PM

GUEST,troll-For me to be convinced of his guilt, either an eyewitness account from someone I personally know or a conviction. For me to ignore due process? Nothing that I can think of.

EJ-war should not preclude morality. You can certainly assume that everyone around you is an enemy, and be careful because of that, but you don't kill people until they actually threaten you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

Forum Lurker, read "here's a blicky" in Deda's post. Another wounded USA soldier has died due to his "alledged" wounds.

GregF, poor gregf. Well lad, there you are talking of "dick waving"
again as though you cannot get enough. Do a bend over and I am sure someone will give you a good stiff one.

Patriot Miss L, my dear. Please go back to sleep and when you wake you just might be here in the real world with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:49 PM

PosterCHILD. Aptly named.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

Anybody going to answer my question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:34 PM

CarolC-there is no reason to treat him any differently than the law requires. I can hope that that's what was done in previous cases, but I don't know.

posterchild-the attack occured, but guilt is not yet proven. Also, could you possibly get over your homophobia? People would take you more seriously if you didn't sound like a petty bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:39 PM

CarolC, he certainly should not be treated differently, and I can vividly recall visiting a man in my battery in Vietnam who was locked up in what we called the Long Binh Jail for a similar (but not as serious) offense (he knocked out a lieutenant's four front teeth with a rifle barrel). Compared to the LBJ, the people in the confinement facility at Guantanimo Bay have luxury accomodations. Due process is a vital part of what makes us who we are.

Religious affiliation? I wonder how many American soldiers who profess the religion of Islam are riding in tanks alongside their Christian, Jewish and non-practicing comrads? I expect its about the same percentage as there are Moslems in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:48 PM

I don't think your gonna get too many answers from this crew Carol, they're too busy taking pot shots at each other. I agree with you, there is no reason for him to be treated any differently. He has the right to due process and he should get it.

I will say however that I do understand the emotional response this has received. Here's a guy who is there in support of our country and he turns on his own with grenades. The fact that he is Muslim was bound to stir up emotions and hatred. I don't think it's right but I am anything BUT surprised by it.

I also think that some people around here need to get a grip. The lynchmob needs to lighten up and at least one person around here needs to see someone about his obsession with dick waving.....sheesh.


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:50 PM

CarolC, I will give you my opinion. When I was in Vietnam the only "fraggings" I knew about were directed against particular individuals, ie, incompetent officers who put far too many troops in harms way knowing full well their's was a fool's errand. Whether they deserved what they got? Debatable. Those in command had the discretion to countermand or question orders from superiors that were foolhardy or ineffective or just plain stupid. The incident in question (in this thread) is a random act of terror directed at as many people as possible. It is my belief that this person may have acted in accordance with his muslin beliefs to kill "infidels". Or he may be part of a terrorist cell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM

EJ-to call beliefs that suggest the random killing of infidels "Muslim" is even less accurate than to call the beliefs of the Inquisition "Christian."


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

PS...should he receive due process? He probably will unless he is ousted from the military and tried for a terrorist act. That is certainly a possibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

Thanks to those who answered my question.

EJ, do you know what the law is in regard to this man's behavior, and do you have any reason to not trust that due process will bring justice in this case?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

EJ-I don't think they can do that. Besides, chances are that the army would prefer a court-martial, since it is faster, more private, and easier on the prosecution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

Oops, EJ. Looks like we cross posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:08 PM

Forum Lunker...thanks for setting me straight...just can't beat a man with an education. And to back myself up a bit, this man can only be ousted if he is found guilty of a treasonous war crime...but more than likely he will spend his days in a Federal institution where some rather unsavory patriots will have fun with him. The outcome will be, to say the least, interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 04:35 PM

Well Greg - seems you're not quite able to let go of it - so I'd say it is your problem. I'm just fuckin with ya and you can't take it - poor little guy - still no keys to the car? Poor baby -

Har har har - - - -

Steve

As for those who are having a problem with the little urinating contest - don't read it - just that simple - few of us want to screw with the lame one's head - well long as he takes the bait - pow, ping, just like shootin fish in a barrel. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

5:00 pm EST...This just in! As per MSNBC news (Leslie Banfield) Sgt Akbar (the accused traitor) has forfeited all rights and according to the UCMJ IS guilty unless he can prove himself innocent. Which is going to be kinda hard since the "poor misguided muslim fuck" was caught in the act. It is possible that he can be tried for Treason and Mutiny. Seems like this poor misguided fuck confided to some of his buds that he was going to "use grenades and shoot some people and make it look like friendly fire". He also confided in his buds that he would not kill other muslims and would "do something to make sure this did not happen". I do believe that Akbar's primary concern now will making sure some Southern Baptist or some other fine prostetant does not catch his traitorous ass unawares. Sgt Akbar, now there is a very finely tuned mind. This case will certainly bear watching. What think you now, Forum Lurker?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

Boy, that's tellin me. Snortin' Norton - what a man. As long as your having fun there, Snortin', have at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:27 PM

EJ and Vietvet. I have no military experience. Nevertheless, I would be tempted to assume that anyone who was a credible, crucial and direct witness in the government's favor would be keeping their mouths shut outside the appropriate personnel at this point. If I were the appropriate personnel, I would make certain that said witnesses understood that without any ambiguity.

Yes? No?

If yes, all the rumours about some guy said that some guy said "You guys are coming into our countries and you're going to rape our women and kill our children," or said "I am going to use grenades and shoot some people and make it look like friendly fire," and all that stuff are likely to be horseshit, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:27 PM

LOL - Oh Greg - so easy

Ka-pow - oops another one - :-)

Yeah I am a man - so what? LMAO - - -

Guess we'll have to cut back on your soap on a rope rations -


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 06:37 PM

WHO can't leave it alone, Snortin? Seems you always have to get the last word in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:00 PM

heric, Good point...I was passing on what I heard on MSMBC news. You don't think they would streeeeeetch things a little or push the envelope, do you? We will take a wait and see. But if we see it in print, it is gospel. The printed word never lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM

You're being a smartass EJ, which is too bad becuase I was expecting a substantive answer, which I guess I shouldn't have been. Anyway, if you were so hell bent on being snide you would have noticed that the first quote (about rape, etc) was from a San Francisco newspaper, originally cited by yours truly, me.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:12 PM

It's common sense, EJ. What the rumours, radios, newspapers, television and internet say he said at this point are likely to be false. So what? Why should that bother you? Doesn't mean he won't receive the maximum legal punishment, and maybe a bit of extra-legal as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM

Katlaughing said: "Dumbya has no military experience,"

Au contraire, mon cher! He has military experience, although not in great length, but in a high rank: He is Commander in Chief.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 06:25 AM

heric, We understand your defensive position. Since you have had no military experience it is hard for you to understand how close and tight people in a military unit become. To a lot of soldiers the military is their home and their fellow soldiers are family. So when an asshole like AKBAR commits an atrocity such as this...the action becomes real personal. Maybe at times we do grab at straws and believe everything that we hear. Especially when yhis person was caught commiting this traitorous, mutinous, terrorist crime. And, wrong though it may be, each and every standing member of that unit would glady be AKBAR'S executioner. If I seem to come on a little strong and not to your liking or understanding...so be it.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:10 AM

EJ - well spoken mon amie. We shall never know the man until we walk beside the man. Until you do, tread lightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:43 AM

Oh, knock it off with the "terrorist" label, EJ, et al. He blew up soldiers, not civilians. To label it "terrorism" simply because he is a Muslim is racist. I mean, would you be calling it "terrorism" if he was one of those epileptic Southern Baptist snake-worshipers you seem to be so fond of? :)

The same thing has bothered me in the "war" coverage, too. Iraqi guerrilla fighters, using tactics that George Washington would have admired, are "terrorists," "thugs," "zealots," and "fanatics." US soldiers, dressed similarly civilian clothes (in Kurdistan) and evaporating civilians, are "heroes." Please. At least the Iraqis are fighting for a worthy cause: for their homeland, against yet another imperialist aggressor.

Only Bush could make Saddam Hussein look good.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM

Since when are Muslims a race?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:28 AM

Don't make me get out the dictionary, Wolfgang... Here's how the Merriam-Webster website defines "race:"

Main Entry: 3race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
Date: 1580
1 : a breeding stock of animals
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics (the English race)
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type
4 obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition
5 : distinctive flavor, taste, or strength

See the second definition. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

"the race of folk musicians" "the catholic race"?

It would take some time and effort but I could get used to it.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:52 AM

Well, the term "racist" as I used it also fits into what I assume is your definition, Wolfgang: The average Muslim has brown skin and a "foreign sounding" name. Also, many anti-Muslims (and even many pro-war people... the two groups seem to overlap a bit, strangely...) often use "ragheads," "sand niggers," "dune coons," and similar terms to describe Muslims, which are unarguably "racist" in any sense of the word.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:57 AM

Wolfgang,

You could give master-classes at taking the piss

Well done, very, very funny LOL!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:07 AM

I heard an interesting discussion on a radio call-in show yesterday. An Iraqi immigrant called in from some place in the Midwest. He told the host that hw was very worried about his family in Bagdad, but that he had spoken to them that morning and they were ok. He was equally worried about his nephew in the US Army, because he wasn't sure if his unit was still in Kuwait or if they had moved on up the road. I expect this young soldier is more worried about accidental encounters with family members then he is about attacking other Moslems, and this is no different than the situation faced by other Americans in other wars. We are a nation of immigrants.

Moslems, or Muslems if you prefer, are believers in a religion called Islam, not a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock. They are members of any and every nation and their skin color can be any shade of tan/brown, ranging from the light complexion of Nordics to the dark one of Sub-Saharan Africans.

If SGT Akbar did what he is accused of, and I'm not saying he didn't, all of the media reports of comments from his commanders imply that it was because he didn't want to be in Kuwait or deploy to Iraq for his own personal reasons. Murderous? Certainly. Traitorous? It would be a stretch to say that these acts "gave aid and comfort to the enemy." Terrorist? The definition of that word seems to change daily, so I suppose we can all have our own opinions. The most recent news I've seen says that he is in confinement in Germany waiting for the Article 32 investigation to begin.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:36 AM

Easily amused, eh, Teribus?

And you're wrong, artbrooks. Outside rest homes, trailor parks and, apparently, Germany, the word "race" isn't used the same way it was, say, during segregation. The practice of dividing human beings into the Negroid race, Caucasoid race, Mongoloid race, etc., has long been discredited, and has been out of fashion for some time. "Race" now, as it always has, refers to a group of people united by various characteristics. (And yes, Wolfgang, "Catholic race" is a real term, usually used by anti-Catholics) It need not have anything to do with skin colour. And of course a "racist" is someone who believes in the supremacy of their own race, and the inferiority of other races. Holding one race of people to a different standard than your own is discriminatory, and it is "racist." Get with the 90s, people, if not the 00s...

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

Is there something I said that would make you think I believe that "races" exist, Lepus? Please point it out to me, because I'd hate to think I was misunderstood. There is only one "race", and that is the human race. Different populations of that race have different characteristics but, as long as they are capable of interbreeding, they are members of the same race. The concept of a Catholic race, a Jewish race or a Moslem race is as much bullshit as that of a Negro/Black race, a White race or an Asian race.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:57 AM

There is something I am curious about. As this man is a Sergeant, presumably an enlisted man, could he not have resigned on the grounds of his religious beliefs? I don't know much about how the military operates in that regard, but it would seem to me that if his religion were that much of an issue to him, someone might have worked with him to accommodate that concern. At least I'd like to think so.

As far a Muslims fighting other Muslims....... well, my gggggggrandfather was a German, a teenager literally fresh off the boat in 1775...... enlisted in the Continental Army and straightaway found himself fighting other Germans when he crossed the Delaware. I have often wonderered how he felt about that.

It's my understanding, though, that all Muslims are not necessarily on the same page, that there are different factions within the religion, that often disagree with each other.

Anyway, that being said... he should be given a fair trial.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:03 AM

No it isn't. Religion and other cultural characteristics are exactly what defines a race. Those are real distinctions between people, unlike the imaginary colour barriers. (Which, yeah, I got: you don't believe in. I addressed it to you, but then confusingly started directing it at the larger group almost from the start...)

Incidentally, observant Muslims share a language (Arabic), needed to properly read their holy book. Similar thing with Jews. Add to that the cultural and physical traits shared by many Muslims, and the feeling of kinship with their co-religionists, regardless of ethnic origin... If Muslims aren't a race, what is?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:04 AM

Well Good Morning Greg - how the hell are you? Anything I can do to screw your day up? Tell me oh great Citizen of the World - how does if feel to get all pumped up by nothing?

What's the F stand for? Fucked up?

Simply shivering with anticipation of your response - which will be short and meaningless as is most of your drivel - :-)

LOL - Me thinks Posterchild nailed it - bend over oh wise one - someone will be grateful I'm sure -


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:12 AM

Hey, constructive post, Norton1. Now, just threaten Greg with some of your famous physical violence, and we'll all be properly entertained.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

Lepus Rex, you may be the only poster (as far as I can tell) to this thread who is apparently sympathetic to the Iraqi cause. If I am wrong, please correct me. And DO remember that you can only make the comments like the ones you made in your post of 07:43AM because of the freedoms granted to you by the military forces willing to do what they do to keep your sorry ass free. YOU, personally, have not earned any rights. Indeed, your freedom and rights to live where you please and say what you please were bought and paid for in blood and you will continue to enjoy these gifts because the price (for you and your kind is continually paid for. AND, of course, you were fortunate enough to have been born in or to live in a free country. So enjoy your severe case of "diarrhea of the mouth". The patriots of this country will keep you safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:17 AM

Aw come on Lepus, the possibilities as illustrated by Wolfgang are tremendous:

Merriam-Webster website defines "race" under definition 2 b) as:

"a class or kind of people unified by habits"

So you could have "a race of nose pickers and arse scratchers" (I've got a funny story about that but I'll leave it for another day)


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

Charming, vietvet. But you're right: I'm 100% "sympathetic to the Iraqi cause." Iraqi meaning, of course, "person from Iraq." And that includes opposing the belligerent US stormtroopers currently rampaging, illegally, through a sovereign nation, as well as the criminal Iraqi Ba'ath regime. My point, the one you referred to, is that our government has, through its unsavoury and unlawful actions, and because of its unique position in the world, become worse than Saddam Hussein, and more of a threat to world peace.

And this war does nothing to "keep (my) sorry ass free." Neither did Vietnam, by the way. Didn't you learn anything, over there? (other than how to kill small, dark skinned people, that is)

Teribus, you're being silly. There have been no pogroms against nosepickers, or death camps for arse scratchers. You know what I'm talking about here.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:00 AM

vietvet'67-Bear in mind that the definition of a right means that it it something all people deserve, unless they have forfeited it. You don't "earn" rights, you have them.

Lepus Rex-The concept of race can pretty much mean anything you want it to, so there's no real point in arguing about it. I would point out, however, that a number of definately non-hereditary traits also got people into concentration camps, like communism and being a Jehovah's Witness.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:22 AM

Lepus,

"Teribus, you're being silly." - Well yes I am, but I am not alone in that considering some of the things said in all seriousness in this forum - and I've got a hell of a long way to go before I am even approaching being in the same league as "The Dreaded Guest"


As to: - "There have been no pogroms against nosepickers," There bloody well was at my Primary School.

On a more serious note, I do not know what you mean by the Iraqi cause that you are 100% behind. If you mean the people of Iraq and their unalienable right to live in peace, free from fear, terror and oppression, then all well and good. Because without any shadow of a doubt the people denying them those rights are those you refer to as, "..the criminal Iraqi Ba'ath regime." The people trying their damndest to secure the Iraqi people those rights, you describe as, "..belligerent US stormtroopers currently rampaging, illegally, through a sovereign nation," - by the way, they are neither rampaging through the countryside, nor is their intervention illegal.

Your contention that your Government (i.e. the Government of the United States of America): - "..has, through its unsavoury and unlawful actions, and because of its unique position in the world, become worse than Saddam Hussein, and more of a threat to world peace." Completely and utterly denies history - Certainly in the last 100 years, no nation on this earth has done more to preserve peace and promote freedom - it has done that at no small cost to itself, and it has shouldered that burden willingly. The world is a damn sight better place because of the actions, policies and sacrifices made by successive governments of the United States of America. I as a non-American fully appreciate that, as did my parents and their parents before them.

Lepus - go to Google, type in Lt-Col Tim Collins and read the address he gave to the men of 16th Air Assault Brigade before the entered Iraq - I know that he is British, not American, but I believe what he said has a great commonality in the hearts, minds and spirits of US, UK & Australian forces personnel currently fighting in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:27 AM

Forum Lurker - are you stating that the citizens of Libya and North Korea have the same rights as the USA?

Lepus Rex - you must not stand very high with your peers or that depends who are your peers. What is your country? Do you back the Saddam regime?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:41 AM

Lepus Rex, you may be the only poster (as far as I can tell) to this thread who is apparently sympathetic to the Iraqi cause.

Sympathetic to the Iraqi cause? Since when are the Iraqis our enemy? I thought it was Saddam who was the enemy and the Iraqis the people we are supposed to be "liberating".


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:43 AM

That last line should have read like this:

Sympathetic to the Iraqi cause? Since when are the Iraqis our enemy? I thought it was Saddam who was the enemy and the Iraqis the people we are supposed to be "liberating".


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM

no military authority "grants" any one rights except in a police state. and no one "earns" rights, they are "bestowed by the creator". and, yes, human beings who happen to live in north korea and libya are entitled to the same human rights we have enjoyed and hope to continue to enjoy in the usa. they are not allowed them due to an oppressive government but that doesn't mean they're not entitled to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:56 AM

CarolC...I stand corrected. Of course I meant Saddam's regime, not the Iraqi people.

Whatever was I thinking.

Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

Just heard on the news that the British prisoners held by the Saddam regime have been executed. What say you now, backers of Saddam. This atrocity is on the same level of that which was carried out by the terrorist Akbar.

Leper Rex, how does this make you feel?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM

Q.E.D. Snort'n


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:32 PM

Seems that the "poor misguided muslin terrorist fuck" Akbar is now in Germany being held in an undisclosed location "for his safety and protection". 'Tis a shame and a pity to have to waste money and manpower on this lower form of life. But then our constitution automatically grants him more rights than the people that he murdered and wounded. I cannot even imagine how this vermin will be defended. Want to volunteer to serve as his co-counsels, how about you two -HERETIC and LEPER REX...


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:36 PM

Better re-read that Constitution, laddie- it grants them the SAME rights. Vermin?? you're starting to sound like Goebbels.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

An undisclosed location? According to CNN.com, he is at "the Mannheim Confinement Center, officially known as the U.S. Army Confinement Facility-Europe, a maximum security facility at the far end of Coleman Barracks Army Airfield, about 60 miles south of Frankfurt, Germany." Any additional disclosure would require either his cell number or ten-place grid coordinates.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 02:20 PM

Forum Lurker, I think there is a rason to argue about the definition of race, especially when racists try to avoid being labelled as such by making arguments like, "Hey, sandmonkeys ain't a race, no-how, so I ain't a racist for hatin' 'em!"

OK, so no-one actually said that. But that's how I read it. :)

Yeah, vietvet'67 and Teribus: I fucking LOVE Saddam Hussein. That is exactly the message I was trying to get across. I dream of sitting atop a minaret with him, feeding each other falafel and swapping rape-and-pillage stories 'til the crescent moon sinks behind the Zagros Mountains. Yeah, you got me, geniuses.

Teribus, again: Do you really believe that this war is going to make the world a better place? That the Iraqis, still smarting from British colonial rule, are going to welcome a milky-white, Christian viceroy, especially one with the hilariously bad (Crusades-wise) name of "Franks?" You think that the occupation of a Muslim nation is going to cut down on terrorism, considering the main cause of 9/11 was our occupation of part of the Muslim holy land? Honestly.

Ooh!, and what a unique and unprecedented twist on my name, EJ. Haven't heard that one before. So, with that last post (you know, calling him "vermin" and "a lower form of life"), I no longer have any reservations about calling you a racist. Congrats, dude!

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:13 PM

Wow - must have got someone excited! Now come on Greg - one more time Brother -

Famous physical violence? Really? Well if you say so - it would be out of character though.

I'm just pretty tired of people blaming the problems of the world on the US. I don't know you and don't really care to. So - my post above ought to cover it Lepus - you don't like it - don't read it.

And where in the hell did the physical violence come from??

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:13 PM

artbrooks...allow me to expand on my previous comment. AKBAR is being confined in an "undisclosed location" with the compound of the Mannhein Confinement Center (according to a news crawler on one of the major news networks).

leper...I admit it. I am bigoted when it comes to a low rent fuck that you appear to be. Will you tell us your "race"?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 05:32 PM

Q.E.D. Snort'n>


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM

Norton1, your repeated threats to physically assault Little Hawk appeared last week, in the BS: Should Saddam comply with Resolutions? thread. I posted a reply in a post there, which was deleted as a "personal attack." I'll PM it to you now. :)

Nice, EJ, you golden-tongued wordsmith, you.

But, again, congratulations on your coming out as a racist, pal. Your memebrship card is in the mail. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 07:46 PM

Norton1- A good many problems of the world fall on the shoulders of the U.S.A. It is an arguable point whether Saddam is worse than the Iranian theocracy (I think he is), but it is clear that the U.S. is responsible for the Ba'ath Party holding power in Iraq. While not necessarily the fault of the government, much anti-American sentiment derives from our vastly greater appearance of prosperity and extravagance. Many of the troubles in South and Central America can be traced to the Cold War, for which we are as responsible as the Soviets. The list is pretty extensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:09 PM

I didn't threaten to physically assault him. I said that if he had been (note tense is past if you are unable to comprehend the English language) was near me and made the comment I'd bloody his nose. A threat is only that - a comment or inuendo that infers someone is going to do something. It was a glimpse into the past that could never be repeated in public. And LH and I managed to wiggle our little selves right through the process and got past our emotions. Whatever you may have had to say would have been speculative at best and had nothing to do with what LH and I were doing.

A personal attack? My oh my - I'm shaking in my boots here. The only way you could personally attack me would be to come here to my home and make that attempt. This space is just words on a screen and only means as much as the reader puts into it. Or are you saying that you know where I live and are coming to get me? Even you aren't that ignorant - well I guess I am assuming here as I don't know you. But if you are coming - well we'll have tea then -

Good one Greg - :-) I am so impressed :-)>

You all be good now - ya hear?
Steve

Oh yeah Lepus - I don't have PMs so will miss out on whatever little thing you might have said. Personal huh? Wow - you and that troop that threw grenades in the night might just have something in common - you operate in the dark, mumble incoherently, and if you ever really do something it'll most likely be one of your last accomplishments.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

"Personal attacks," genius, are written attacks of a personal nature. Officially, they're not allowed. Read the FAQ. And why on Earth don't you have PMs? You have a membership, which you used as recently as last month.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 09:07 PM

Q.E.D. Snort'n


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 27 Mar 03 - 11:23 PM

Well ol Lepus Rexius - a personal attack as defined by the Mudcat may be what you say. But not to me - a personal attack is when someone personally attacks someone in the physical context. I've yet to be hurt by words. Well - unless you count the time the book fell off the shelf and hit me in the head - then the words hurt in a collective sense. Screw the FAQs - you read them. I did use my membership?? Hm - wonder who did that - it's been some time since I logged on here. If I did use it I think it had to have been several months ago when I was trying to track a member down who absconded with some of my first edition, first copy, books I had lent him. Dirt bag -

How'd you know I was a genious? I've never told anyone here my IQ that I am aware of. I'm also assuming you figured out the English lesson - "if" and "had been"?

Another thing I am always curious about - why do all of you want to live here if it is so bad? Or do you live here? Maybe you live in Iraq and that's why you can speak to how evil it is here. You don't really know squat is more like it.

Oh Gregory!! Yo momma is callin you!! LOL - Made ya look - :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 12:26 AM

Another thing I am always curious about - why do all of you want to live here if it is so bad?

I know this is difficult for some people to understand, but some of us are, in our own way, trying to keep things from getting any worse, and maybe, just maybe, try to help correct some of the wrongs that have been committed in our name in the past. Each of us has to follow our own conscience. I know you follow yours and you are sincere in your dedication to following your conscience. I and other people like me are equally sincere in our dedication to following our consciences. It's all each of us can do. I know you can understand this.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 07:48 AM

Hi there Lepus,

Did I say you loved Saddam Hussein?

Any way to answer your questions:

1. "Do you really believe that this war is going to make the world a better place?"

Yes, oddly enough I do - for the following reasons:

- It removes from the middle-east a regime that supports terror and is vehemently anti-Israeli. Without this backer the middle-east peace process vis-a-vis Israeli/Palestinian issue can be resumed.

- It will result in a better United Nations Organisation, provided that organisation survives. That organisation will have a far better idea of what it's responsibilities are - so will its member states.

- It serves warning on other regimes, this does not necessarily, or inevitably mean further wars. But the lesson to be drawn from Iraq may mean that they act a bit more circumspectly.

- The US funded and governed the reconstruction, politically and materially of Nazi-Germany and Japan at the end of the Second World War. Two vastly different cultures. They were totally successful then, in the face of some major and highly credible threats. Given the commitment in terms of time and resources, in this, the USA will be successful in the reconstruction of Iraq. In this reconstruction, France and Russia should not be involved, their ties to the previous regime and the support they have given it should exclude them - it provides them the opportunity to create too much mischief. That is what they are both extremely good at.

2. "That the Iraqis, still smarting from British colonial rule, are going to welcome a milky-white, Christian viceroy, especially one with the hilariously bad (Crusades-wise) name of "Franks?"

Hells teeth, that must be some smart, the Brits left ages ago. And surely by the time he gets to Baghdad General Tommy Franks will have developed a bit of a sun tan. I think the military part, while maintaining a presence, will be very much background, civil administration assisting some form of transitional Iraqi government, leading to an election by the Iraqi people of an Iraqi Government.

3. "You think that the occupation of a Muslim nation is going to cut down on terrorism, considering the main cause of 9/11 was our occupation of part of the Muslim holy land? Honestly."

Honestly? - In the eyes of the Fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists, the United States of America and all of it's people already stand condemned to death - what more are they going to do - kill each and every one of you twice.

Will it increase the support for terrorist organisations - in the short term possibly - but that will be done in a world of heightened security and co-operation between intelligence and law enforcement agencies - your best protection against terrorist attack.

Any nation or regime even remotely considering providing such organisations with support in any way, shape or form are going to think twice about doing so.

That was the short term - Long Term

1. The United States must climb onto the fence with regard to the problem of Palestine and Israel. It must demonstrate clearly and beyond doubt that it is willing to engage in this process impartially. Probably the best means of doing this will be through the UN/EU/USA/Russia organisation.

2. The USA was tough on Iraq for non-compliance to UNSC resolutions, the US will have to be as tough on Israel on the same issue. Their greatest sanction, of course is money - Sharon in Jerusalem must be told bluntly not a penny more until a real effort is made to reach a peaceful solution - That means a Palestinian State, the security and sovereignty of which will be assured by the UN and the USA (in fact similar to the assurances Israel received when they declared themselves a State)


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 08:06 AM

Q.E.D. Snort'n Pitiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM

CarolC - People do not change from their weaknesses - to continue to point that out is akin to replicating the problem. I understand you because I know you - and I have no doubts about how you view the world as genuine and from the heart.

Teribus's treatis above is about as clear as I can get to how I really feel about this whole thing.

Anyone that knows me should have a clear picture of who and what I have done with my life. And also knows that my support for this endeavor was not some warmongering as many have alluded to. It is with a firm belief that we did all we could for many years to attempt to peacefully rectify the mistakes of the past. When that became no longer viable we resorted to force.

Thank You Teribus - for articulating what I could not - In many sense I'm just PO'd that now that we have engaged in this course of action there are those who do not support the troops who are in harms way. Calling them names and referring to them as less than human is typical BS from the so called "peace movement." More like a bowel movement.

There are troops over there who are not firing on Iraqi civilians that ARE firing on them. Why not? Because they can see the Fedayeen behind the civilians threatening to kill them if they don't fire. I've been in that space in time and it takes great strength of character to hold your fire and not kill those who really don't mean you harm. The demonstrations here are not doing those folks any good either. And I resent that. It hurts my feelings to my very soul. I have a daughter over there fighting for what she believes in, and other family members that you all know nothing about doing very much the same thing.

I believe that you all think that we should have just waited for Hitler to die so the world would get better. Well sometimes it takes force - and after nearly 40 years of advocating for other solutions than war - I am supportive of this one. Odd how this shift has suddenly made me one of "them" to you folks.

As far as the "Personal Attack" - plain and simple - screw you Lepus - you want to do something personal send a care package to a troop - visit a VA hospital and vent your inane comments on someone who has really been there. I'm sure they will appreciate it about as much as I have. And Greg - you are about the most pathetic little individual I have had occasion to interface with. You are a whining no nothing that contributes little to the world. So bite me - put your little blicky in place and you will have the last word. You may now have the last word. From this point on you do not exist - post anything anywhere and I'll not respond to it. As a friend of mine used to say - I've taken some whiteout and removed you from my life.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM

CarolC - People do not change from their weaknesses - to continue to point that out is akin to replicating the problem.

I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean by that, but I think maybe I can't agree with what I think you're saying. People do change and they do overcome their weaknesses. But not unless they understand them and acknowledge them.

I hope you know that I'm not criticizing your stance on the current world situation in any way. But I do think it's important for people to know that criticizing the way one's country or one's government is doing things isn't a bad thing if the person doing it genuinely believes it needs to be done. Patriotism comes in many forms, and suggesting that someone who thinks that change needs to happen at home should leave the country if they don't like it, misses the point entirely. We're all doing the best we can in a crazy world.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,troll
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 10:53 AM

Leper Rex (as you have been so aptly renamed), do you hang around just to be an irritant? Just from I've read in these posts most folks consider you to be in the same class as stuff that they scrape off their shoes and turn up their noses at. Do you really bugger animals? Where do you live? Please tell me that you do not live in the USA. This traitor Akbar is really a blight on this great country. You, on the other hand, merely exist. Do you really support the Iraqi Regime? As posterchild told you, "do a bend over". You may have a use yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 11:01 AM

CarolC - What I mean by that is if folks continue to rehash the problem they will not get to the solution. People change from their strengths - period - I don't think they even need to understand them to change them. And I do this for a living and am quite successful at it.

And yes on your last paragraph - it's when it bleeds over to people who are laying their lives on the line that I think it is highly innapropriate. I've been on both sides of that Patriotism so believe I have a clue as to what that means. I think my inference about leaving is much more akin to taking a look at the other side. Are they able to do as we do? Unless one has experienced tyranny I believe it is just a concept that does not equate to reality - and without reality we can only speculate. Speculative does not have enough substance to have meaning for those not familiar with tyranny and the means sometimes necessary to overcome it.

Bottom line my dear - I have no quarel with you - I consider you a friend with a deep conscience who is striving to effect change in the crazy world we live in.

Steve

PS Hug Jack for me - it is nice to know that the two of you continue to do well - :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 02:27 PM

Well, I'm glad you have no quarel with me. I know that you and I are both doing the best we can within the framework of how we percieve the world, and our roles in it. I will definitely give JtS a big hug for you. Good luck to you and your family during this difficult time.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 03 - 02:34 PM

For someone who repeatedly claims they don't care and won't respond you sure keep whining on and on and on, Snort'n. Knock yerself out.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Troll
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM

Guest troll. find yourself another name. This one's already taken.

troll The REAL one.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

Norton1-I have to respectfully disagree that the "peace movement" is insulting or attacking the morale of the troops. The signs that say "Support our Troops: Bring Them Home" are not just propoganda, they are how many of us feel. Many pro-war speakers have difficulty distinguishing attacks on the war from attacks on the soldiers; I hope that the troops are not similarly confused.

As far as Hitler goes, he actually attacked other nations. Saddam has a shorter track record of aggression than we do. While I certainly don't support him, and think that, since the damage has been done by invading, we ought to finish the job, comparisons to imperialist aggressors are inaccurate and serve only to inflame emotions.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 01:23 PM

Trust me, Teribus, the Iraqi people don't consider the late 1950s to be "ages ago." These are people still whining about Hülegü destroying Baghdad. That was "ages ago." They know that it was the British who saddled them with a puppet Hashemite, and put into place the corrupt colonial system that gave all of the oil extracted from their nation to Euro/American parasites right up until the '58 revolution. They know it was the British who arbitrarily drew up their idiotic borders with no regard for the people within them (including lopping off Kuwait, which was historically part of southern Iraq, after all). And they know that, ultimately, it was the heavy-handed greed of the British which made the ascension of someone like Saddam possible, and the duplicitous support of the Americans which led to the disasterous Iran/Iraq Gulf War, state bankruptcy, and the invasion of Kuwait. So, yeah, I guess that these same two nations are currently invading/occupying Iraq might be "some smart," to an Iraqi. Your apparent ignorance of these facts, as a British citizen, is disturbing.

And this invasion will do nothing to increase Mid-East security. Without a strong hand in Baghdad, there will be nothing to keep Iraq united. (Oh, other than a huge, decades-long foreign occupation to keep the revolts down, of course, which won't be resented all all, right?) Look at the former Yugoslavia: without Tito, it's (violently) collapsed into five seperate nations of varying degrees of viability, and continues to fragment (UN-administered Kosova, and Montenegro, which will possibly be leaving the awkwardly-named "Serbia and Montenegro" in the near future). If the Iraqi peoples are allowed to choose their fates, Iraq will be split into at least two states, one Arabic and one Kurdish. Which would annoy Turkey and Iran (both home to large, restive Kurdish populations), to say the least. I'm sure you can imagine where it could go from there... (I'm very pro-Kurdistan, btw, but not this way.)

And it won't cut down on terrorism in the short term, or the long term. Terrorism needs no state support; all it needs is people who have grown up defeated, humiliated, and impotent. Access to expensive, cutting-edge weaponry such as box-cutters helps, too. There will be no shortage of such people when the US and UK have had their way with Iraq. Our best protection against terrorism is not "heightened security and co-operation between intelligence and law enforcement agencies." Our best defense is to stop supporting repressive regimes (Israel, Saudi Arabia, Colombia, Russia, and the rest), and to stop arrogantly, belligerently, thwarting the will of the worlds peoples, no matter how much we might disagree with them. If, for instance, Algerians wanted a fundamentalist Muslim dominated govt., we should not supported the violent military-government crackdown that led to tens of thousands of deaths. Things like that make us look like assholes.

As for removing "a regime... that is vehemently anti-Israeli," well, if you have a democratically elected government in Iraq, what do you think it will be? Vehemently Zionist? As long as there are Israeli boots on Palestinian necks, the Arab public will never accept the Jewish colonies in Palestine.

Also, Norton1, as FL implied, Saddam has never really had any real expansionist ambitions. His war with Iraq was over disputed territory, as was the invasion of Kuwait (Iraq disputing that Kuwait was anything more than an unjustly liberated chunk of its Basra province). Maybe a wannabe mini-Stalin, but no Hitler.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 29 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM

In that last paragraph, "his war with Iraq" should read "his war with Iran," obviously. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:38 AM

Lepus Rex-The idea that Kuwait was historically part of Iraq has been debunked repeatedly on this thread. Kuwait has a history as an independent sheikdom, unlike many other former colonies.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:44 AM

No it hasn't, FL. No one's mentioned the Iraqi claims on Kuwait on this thread but me...

And Kuwait wasn't a truly independent emirate until the British protectorate ended in 1961. While the Kuwaiti sheikhs enjoyed semi-autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, their lands were officially part of the Basra vilayet, and were recognised as such by the Ottomans as well as the occupying British until after WWI and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. The sheikhs were only considered to be anything more than regional governors in their own dreams. What I stated in my previous post, that Kuwait was separated from Basra vilayet by the British and that the Iraqi govt. considers it to be part of it's current Basra province, was correct. And rightly or wrongly, the Ottoman claims on Kuwait are the basis of the Iraqi claims.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: posterchild
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 08:09 AM

Your Sgt Akbar has been transported from to Germany to the USA. What is now known of his location. I am hearing of several locations.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:07 AM

Lepus Rex-I meant to say on other threads. I hope you've been reading the other threads about Iraq. Kuwait has been a sheikdom since the middle of the eighteenth century, and was treated as an independent nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 11:45 AM

According to the latest "NEWS" the traitor Akbar is being kept in a secret location, possibly Fort Knox KY. The tax dollars protecting this muslim mutineer is mounting daily, what a waste. Even though this poor misguided fanatic life's (as he knows it) is basically ever, he can never be punished enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 01:10 PM

Treated as an independent nation by whom, FL? Certainly not by the Ottomans, nor by the British, who right up until WW1 agreed with the Turks that the sheikhs were mere regional sub-governors of part of Basra vilayet. The sheikhs claimed to be independent for centuries, but their lands were in fact part of the Ottoman Empire, even after the British arrived in 1899, and were claimed by the Ottoman Empire right up until the end. A nation can claim independence all it likes, but until the "mother" country is defeated and/or agrees to the demands of independence, it doesn't mean shit.

Take Kosova, for instance. While it is administered by the UN, it is legally part of Serbia right now. Most of the planet recognises this. As I'm sure you know, the Albanians there claim independence from Serbia. But Serbia is unlikely to drop its claims, ever, and if the UN pulls out, they will pour in. So for the forseeable future, Kosova will only be as independent as the UN allows.

Similarly, under the Ottomans, tiny Kuwait was in no position to declare true independence. Under the British after 1899, they weren't allowed to, either. The British forces kept the Turks and later the Iraqis from invading, but kept the status of Kuwait in limbo as a protectorate until 1961. It's been a long time since 1899, and this dispute is still unresolved in the minds of many Iraqis.

That's all I said, and that's accurate. I'm not arguing that Iraq has a rightful claim to Kuwait, but that it percieves that it does.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:43 PM

vietvet'67-would you prefer that he were executed out of hand? Do you think that the world would be a better place if our armed forces didn't bother with courts-martial, and just shot anyone they thought deserved it?

Lepus Rex-I don't disagree that Iraq seems to think it does. Not exactly sure how that makes it any better, though; Germany thought it had a right to Poland, as did Russia, in 1939.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,yo' daddy
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 02:58 PM

Forum Lurker.   Yes...this low life bastard should be executed. He IS guilt. He WAS caught in the act. There IS NO DOUBT about his guilt. Do you question that?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:15 PM

Guest of 2:58 PM: Well, let's see, has he been convicted yet? No. Does our justice system mandate that we assume innocence until guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt? Why, so it does. Would any of us want to live in a system where we could be shot out of hand if someone with power decided we were guilty? I don't think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 03:52 PM

Do you understand that this piece of muslim shit was actually witnessed (seen) rolling the grenades into those tents and that he was wrestled down while he was in the process of firing his rifle at people? What about this incident do you NOT UNDERSTAND? The only problem I see is that this lower that shit bastard was not gunned down like the rabid animal that he is then and there. Time and taxpayer $$$$$$ would not have to be wasted. AND we would not be having this exchange. As it is some defense lawyer will probably try to prove that he was insane at the time or that he was having a "religious crisis". Is this what you want?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM

Do the expressions "court of competent jurisdiction," "testimony under oath" and "innocent until proven guilty" mean anything to you? Apparently not. All of the information that has been released on this has come out by way of the media. Guily as proven by CNN? I don't think so. I guess SGT Akbar is lucky he's in the Army where he will get a fair trial rather than in a civilian jail where he can be hauled out and lynched by people who think that time and taxpayer money should not have to be wasted on a trial or on due process.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:16 PM

EJ-Even if all that were true, it doesn't change a damn thing. As the invective you use shows, you're willing to violate the basic tenets of our justice system because you're angry, and quite likely prejudiced against the suspect because of his religion. Like I said, would you want to live in a country where you would be subject to what you are calling for Sgt. Akbar to be subject to? If CNN said that you had been caught in some heinous crime, would you want people who hate you because of your religion and the description of the crimes you have been accused of to lynch you? I sincerely doubt it.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Yo' Daddy
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:25 PM

Due process is certainly warranted is there is a doubt. In this case there is no doubt. This bastard was caught in the act. Do you need any more proof? And in the military you are guilty until proven innocent. Fortunately this prick has seen his last day of freedom.

Question to Forum Lurker and artbrooks:

If this person broke into your house and killed your child and you caught him and subdued him. What would be your "DUE PROCESS"???


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Mar 03 - 06:37 PM

Yo' Daddy- You see, then no reasonable doubt exists. If I subdued him, rather than killing him outright, I would still hand him over to the police. Due process is always warranted. If any reasonable doubt exists, then there should be no conviction. If, as you state so assuredly without any sources beyond third-hand CNN broadcasts, no such reasonable doubt exists, then you can rest assured that he will be convicted and executed, and your bloodlust will be assuaged.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 02:07 AM

VietVet, EJ, Yo'Daddy - if your views are indeed typical of US service personnel, then it's hardly surprising that America has nearly always failed in the battle for 'hearts and minds' in any non-European theatre of war.
And I'll bet that the battle will be lost again in Iraq - particularly now that suicide bombs have upped the ante.
The gung-ho arrogance and ignorance shown here in some postings is certainly enough to shock and awe! Take a look at Malaya to see how 'hearts and minds' can work.
I can't help but feel sorry from my own compatriots fighting alongside the Yanks around Basra. They may be booties and crap-hats, but they don't deserve neighbours like that!


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:03 AM

Lepus Rex,

"A Brief History of Kuwait

Kuwait's modern history began in the early 18th century, when several clans from the Al Aniza tribe migrated to the northern shore of the Gulf from the Najd, their famine-stricken homeland in central Arabia. These settlers combined to create an oligarchic merchant principality, whose economic prosperity was based on fishing, pearling, and trade. Eventually the Al Sabah emerged as the dominant clan, and were formally established as rulers in 1756.

Throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the Al Sabah proved adept at the kind of maneuvering that was necessary for a small state to survive next to powerful Saudi, Rashidi, and Ottoman neighbors. By the late nineteenth century, however, fears of growing Ottoman influence led Sheikh Mubarak Al Sabah or "Mubarak the Great" (r.1896-1915) to enter into an agreement with Great Britain, which effectively established Kuwait as an autonomous British protectorate.

Under the 1899 agreement, Kuwait maintained control over its internal affairs, while Great Britain assumed responsibility for the country's security and foreign relations. The British also provided advisers to staff the country's nascent modern bureaucracy. Another British legacy is Kuwait's borders, which were established in 1922 and 1923. Iraq affirmed its border with Kuwait in its 1932 application to the League of Nations for membership as an independent state.

In the mid-1930s work began on the development of Kuwait's petroleum industry, the basis of the country's modern prosperity. Oil was first discovered in Kuwait in 1938, but the development of the industry was interrupted by World War II. By 1945, drilling had resumed on a large scale, and the commercial export of crude oil began in June 1946. Oil production and revenues grew rapidly, fueling a dramatic expansion of the entire economy. By the 1960s Kuwait enjoyed a level of economic development that made it one of the richest states in the world on a per capita basis.

On June 19, 1961 Kuwait gained full independence from Britain. Iraq initially refused to accept Kuwait's independence and threatened to annex its neighbor, falsely alleging that Kuwait had once been part of Iraq. Iraq's military threats resulted in a deployment of British troops, which were soon replaced by an Arab League force, and the crisis subsided. In 1963 Kuwait became a member of the United Nations, and later that year Iraq agreed to abandon its threats and recognize Kuwait's independence and borders in a treaty signed by both governments (although there were border clashes in 1973).

In the 1980s Kuwait's stability was shaken by the Iran-Iraq War, terrorist attacks in Kuwait City, and economic difficulties caused by a worldwide oil glut and the 1982 collapse of the country's unofficial stock market, the Suq Al-Manakh. Kuwait's sovereignty and continued existence were critically threatened when Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait on August 2, 1990, claiming that Kuwait was harming Iraq economically by refusing to reduce its oil production. Many Kuwaitis were forced to flee to Saudi Arabia and other countries. In Saudi Arabia, Kuwait set up a government in exile. As an international coalition of 30 states, led by the United States, prepared to reverse the occupation, Iraq announced it had annexed Kuwait, claiming again that Kuwait had been historically part of Iraq. The Iraqis were forcibly ejected at the conclusion of Operation Desert Storm on February 26, 1991. Departing Iraqi troops looted homes and businesses, and inflicted serious damage on Kuwait's oil industry and environment by setting ablaze 742 of its 1,080 oil wells and allowing crude oil to flow into the desert and the sea. They also took thousands of Kuwaiti prisoners with them.

In November 1994, Iraq formally accepted Kuwaiti sovereignty as well as a UN-demarcated border. Nevertheless, Iraq has provided only partial compensation for property and environmental damage sustained during the occupation and has refused to comply with U.N. resolutions stipulating that Iraq repatriate all prisoners of war. Eight years after Kuwait's liberation, Iraq continues to hold 605 prisoners of war (of whom 570 are Kuwaiti citizens), many of whom were kidnapped from their homes or were arrested at random on the streets during the Iraqi occupation."


In one of your posts you refer to the British involvement in Iraq and put a rough period date to it of the 1950's. The British left Iraq in 1932 - Iraq joined the League of Nations, as a fully independent country in that same year.

Kuwait's border with Saudi Arabia was likewise vague, along the coast there used to be an area called the "neutral zone", claimed by both countries, that anomaly was settled peacefully in 1965.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Yo' Daddy
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 07:34 AM

Wars in the east and mid east and africa are not fought in the gentlemanly fashion as in Europe and certainly not in the fashion of days of yore. If anything the US is too nice when it comes to dealing with terror based regimes. They believe in "no holds barred" when it comes to defending their homelands. We of course, yanks and brits, swoop into battle in proper fashion with proper identification and the rules of the Geneva Convention which we wear like halos shining bright lighting us up like bullseyes. We are met with soldiers in civilian clothes, car bombers (which will increase) and a murderous regime who will stop at nothing, up to and including using women and children as shields and shooting these people if they try to escape. Add to this the lack of backing of the UN and our own politicians. And then there is a flyspeck named Akbar who, for what ever reason, turned on his own. The only way we will survive is to "do unto others as they would do to us, only do it first". It is possible that we have placed Special Forces and Commando "hit squads" in Baghdad and other areas to hunt down and eliminate Saddam and his cronies. If this is true then this is a good start. The Vietnamese defeated the US and the Koreans and the Thais and the Aussies (after soundly thrashing the French) because of the strategies they adhered to. You are entitled to your views, but unless you have "been there" try not to be so critical if some those of us who have "been there" don't agree with you. We have seen what works and what does not work.    God Bless America and God Save the Queen.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 08:47 AM

Do we suspend due process and just execute this 'murdering fuck' too?
==================

Police say Sept. 11 prompted shootings

Suspect admits killing four in New York City

By CHAKA FERGUSON, Associated Press
First published: Monday, March 31, 2003

NEW YORK -- An unemployed man fatally shot four immigrant
workers in Brooklyn and Queens in what he called an attempt to exact
revenge for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, police said.

Thirty-year-old Larme Price of Brooklyn told police he was targeting
people of Middle Eastern descent when he fatally shot immigrants from
Guyana, India, Russia and Yemen at work in convenience stores and an
all-night coin-operated laundry.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,troll
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM

This person really made a mistake with the immigrants from India, Guyana, and Russia. The Yemeni? Dead On. His main error, which was probably due to stress, was his poor choice in target selection.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 09:21 AM

Or, guest troll, could his error maybe have been in a spiteful, idiotic attempt to extract vigilante justice from people whose only crime was sharing a nation of origin with some terrorists?

Yo' Daddy-Are you advocating the large-scale killing of civilians who, willingly or not, shelter Iraqi soldiers?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Yo' Daddy
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 10:03 AM

Forum Lurker, unfortunately we do not all live in the relatively safety and comfort of the free world. There are several ways we can proceed:

1. House to house, village to village search. We may or not prevail
    and the cost in time, coalition forces and money would be         
    unbearable. Civilians will still be executed and tortured.
    Compare Baghdad in size to NYC or LA or any large Metro area and
    really think hard about it.
2. Insert hundreds of Special Ops teams to ferret out and eliminate
    the current Iraqi Regime. Again, this will take a toll on the
    aforementioned assets.
3. Stop what we are doing and pull out all forces and supplies
    immediately. Sit back and wait until the war is in our back
    yard. AND it will come, slowly and surely.
4. Or we can do the "unthinkable". It worked in Japan and ended
    WWII.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 11:14 AM

Yo' Daddy- Is our goal to KILL Saddam, or simply remove him from power? If, as we claim, we are interested in regime change, all we need to do is eliminate the Ba'ath Party's control, and we've accomplished our goals. I am astonished and appalled that you would even consider the use of nuclear weapons in a campaign supposedly intended to "liberate" the Iraqi people. It is, quite frankly, as if not more immoral than Saddam's reign of terror, and would result in the world-wide ostracizing and demonizing of all Americans. Nothing would be a surer way to get hundreds of thousands of innocents killed in retaliatory attacks that would make the WTC look tame.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,VFW
Date: 31 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

Thousands of innocents? Do you think the US and Brit troops are guilty? The veterans seem to know, and always have, more than the bleeding hearts. What will you say when the troop death toll hits a hundred? two hundred? one thousand? and it will, it certainly will. The administration says "at all costs". I wonder how many members of the administration have kids in harms way. Do you wonder that?Checked the stock market today? AND there are more disgruntled black muslims "embedded" in the ranks. I wonder when they will decide to cash in their chips and roll a few grenades.........


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 02:19 PM

Teribus, it says right there in the article you copied from the Kuwait Information Service website that Kuwait didn't gain "full independence from Britain" 'til 1961. And that's the Kuwaiti govt. speaking. Did you even read the article before you cut/pasted, then contradicted, it?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:20 AM

Lepus,

From your posts re Iraq and UK:

"That the Iraqis, still smarting from British colonial rule,"

"Trust me, Teribus, the Iraqi people don't consider the late 1950s to be "ages ago."

My point with regard to Iraq and UK:

"In one of your posts you refer to the British involvement in Iraq and put a rough period date to it of the 1950's. The British left Iraq in 1932 - Iraq joined the League of Nations, as a fully independent country in that same year."

As far as I am aware I have never disputed that Kuwait was a British Protectorate from 1899 until 1961. What I have disputed is your contention that Kuwait was ever part of Iraq, perceived or otherwise.

If indeed Kuwait is perceived as being part of Iraq it is a perception that they have publically renounced on at least three seperate occasions, signing treaties to that effect. But then they have never been very good at honouring their obligations - as the last 12 years have demonstrated.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:01 AM

You said that the British left in 1932... Not much of a British protectorate without the British, though, eh? :)

I don't think we're really disagreeing here, though. I stated that the Iraqi claims were based on the fact that Kuwait was part of the same vilayet as S.Iraq during Ottoman times. I didn't say that Iraqs claims are justified. (although the fact that the British only gave them a tiny, waterlogged sliver of Persian Gulf coastline unsuitable for a decent port, isn't a terrible excuse to claim long-disputed Kuwaiti territory.)

I also stated that the independence of Kuwait from Iraq was impossible without meddling of the English, that Iraq was screwed deeply and repeatedly by the British after WW1, and that the memory of these events might colour the Iraqi people's perception of the Anglo-American invasion today. What's to disagree with?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:14 AM

Lepus,

Iraq was never a British Protectorate - British involvement in Iraq came about as the result of a mandate under the League of Nations between the years 1919 and 1932.

Kuwait was a British Protectorate, established by agreement between Kuwait and Britain, during a time while the Ottoman Empire was in existence. Brtish involvement in Kuwait lasted from 1899 to 1961.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 09:53 AM

Which doesn't contradict a single thing I said. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Liberal Conservative Democrat Republican
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:54 PM

I see the thread title was changed on March 26. Does this mean that the person who changed it thought he was not a Muslim, or was the person somehow offended by the term? Either way, I think it was poor judgement and misuse of the power to rename threads.

Sorry if I offended by calling a Muslim a Muslim. Maybe I should have said U.S. Muslim Sergeant, or maybe Sergeant from the U.S. professing the Muslim faith, or some other description which would probably be too long for the space allotted.

I repeat, changing the title was an incorrect judgement, and the person responsible should have to justify why it was done. If I start a thread titled "Chet Atkins was the world's greatest guitarist" and someone changes it to "Mudcatter thinks Chet Atkins was the world's greatest guitarist, but we, the Mudcat censors think he was merely one of many who are not quite as good as the one we like best" then I would be irritated. I don't see how this is any different. I expect if you were writing history books, you would expunge the term Muslim completely as being irrelevant.

Now to my main point for posting again. It is sad that a thread I started without comment garnered more posts than any music post I have responded to in two years. I am pretty much a centerist, and really think both sides of this argument and others like it are being extreme. It is no wonder that there is no peace in the world. People are too fond of taking pot shots at each other. There, now you can all commence taking pot shots at me, since I am in between you at the moment.

I think that nothing any of you has said in this thread and hundreds like it have caused others to budge even one centimeter from their beliefs.   That makes it pretty useless, and a complete waste of time. Mine is just as useless. I am sure I have not convinced even one of you that I am right, so I will quit and post no more to this thread. The others will no doubt continue to shoot at each other, and both sides will shoot at me. That is the way war goes. No one wins.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: EJ
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 12:53 PM

To return to the topic of this thread. We can all rest better knowing that this piece of muslim shit has at least been charged with murder (only the start). I only hope that this piece of crap is put into a military prison population so that he will be dealt with properly.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 01:56 PM

EJ-If he is found guilty, being a court-martial, he will be executed. Now, are you trying to sound as if you think all Muslims are pieces of shit, or is that just an unfortunate accident of invective?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:40 AM

...so that Christian pieces of shit can exact 'revenge' on the guy, eh?
You US Christians really seem to like the idea of mob rule and lynchings, don't you. Why not set fire to a few crosses while you're about it, and then drag a few niggers to their deaths to complete the cleansing process. As far as I'm concerned, the world would be a better place if all of you zealots could meet your personal gods sooner rather than later.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 08:44 AM

Gervase, I assume that you noticed that most of the people reacting to EJ's comments are from the US? Personally, I'm not a Christian, so I don't see the point in setting fire to a perfectly good cross, and its been weeks now since I participated in a good lynching...best I can recall, it was a one-eyed banjo player.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:21 AM

I understand your response Gervase, but if I may say so, as a Christian living in the US, I don't believe in mob rule and lynchings etc. I'm not saying that you think all of us believe that, but in these times of anger and fear, I just wanted to make that point.

I've tried to stay out of these threads but somehow I keep getting drawn back. If you look through these threads people have been called a lot of names. I try to take into account the emotions that come with seeing a war played out on television for all to see. But it's hard when you see someone referred to as a Muslim piece of shit. He very well may be both, but certainly one did not precipitate the other. It's hard too when someone says that they believe that the war was necessary and is referred to as a warmonger. Name calling brings on more name calling and that certainly has held true in these threads. It's sad, because I not only understand the temptation but I have on occasion given into it. So this post is not meant to argue.....just to get my two cents heard....


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,mfdvr
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:31 AM

ooooooooooohhhhhhh! Can we say NIGGER? Let us see, Akbar is black and muslim and a piece of shit. So........


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Pseudolus
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM

I didn't need anyone to prove my point but , hey, thanks anyway......

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM

As a rule Christian/Prostetant/Jewish/Catholic (etc) people in the US do not do not commit acts of terror against the general population of this country. Unless of course you consider the black and hispanic gangs in the large cities. These people kill each other at an alarming rate (usually drug related or "turf" related) and occasionally non gang-members are killed or injurred. As for the gang members, who really gives a fuck. These people are useless to society and usually sponge off the welfare systems. Let them have at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:41 AM

Kim C. wrote:

"As far a Muslims fighting other Muslims....... well, my gggggggrandfather was a German, a teenager literally fresh off the boat in 1775...... enlisted in the Continental Army and straightaway found himself fighting other Germans when he crossed the Delaware. I have often wonderered how he felt about that."

Actually, there was no Germany at the time, so somewhat less of an issue. The overwhelming number of Pennsylvinia Dutch and similar first-tier-of-the-backwoods communities of German immigrants stretching from upstate New York to North Carolina in the 1600s and 1700s were a combination of Palatine and Swiss Calvinists fleeing religious and political persecution. This was a fairly distinct diaspora; Penn actually traveled to the Palatinate to recruit colonists. Their enemies at Valley Forge were Hessian mercenaries, with whom they would've been well familiar at least by reputation, Hessians being the favorite enforcers of folks needing some extra muscle from Ulster to "Germany" at the time, esp. the Lutheran overlords who had been oppressing them--and let's not forget, the English monarchy was more than a little "German" itself at the time.

They would probably have feared the Hessians more than a little bit, but would, I suspect, have worried about killing them no more than they would have killing any other human--maybe a little bit less, if they or their immediate ancestors had experienced the Hessian boot back in Europe.

Historical Pedant,

C.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,SDShad
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:15 AM

Awhoops! That last one was me, sans cookie. New computer....

Chris


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:46 AM

GUEST of 9:38 AM-The problem is that the people who grow up to be gang members could also be productive, moral members of society, if they were free of the corrupting influence of the gangs. They don't sponge off the welfare system; their income is derived primarily from crime, (drug sales, robbery, etc.) which affects everyone. You can't simply ignore the problem and hope it will go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM

As a rule Christian/Prostetant/Jewish/Catholic (etc) people in the US do not do not commit acts of terror against the general population of this country.


Interesting POV there, GUEST. Perhaps, as a rule, they don't, unless you count the hundreds of people killed by Timothy McViegh. And then there's the Unibomber, and Eric Rudolph, and all of the hate crimes committed against non-whites, women and gays, etc. etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,hotdog
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM

Forum Lurker, I lived in East LA for a year work on gang related articles. MANY black and latino and asian gang menbers bragged of living off the system: food stamps, rent subsidies, free medical, free lunches for their many bastard children AND the monies received from criminal activities So get your facts together or better yet live in one of these shithole areas and see where your hard earned money goes. As GUEST said, if these pricks kill each other off, GOOD! Unfortunately the little bastard kids grow up to be grown thugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:51 PM

CarolC, key phrase here is "as a rule". Of course there are a few incidents throughout history of good 'ol white boys breaking bad and wreaking havoc. But these folks cannot hold a candle to the likes of the fanatical muslims, the many black african terror groups, asian thugs, etc. Crimes against non-whites may or not be considered retribution. You decide.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM

But these folks cannot hold a candle to the likes of the fanatical muslims, the many black african terror groups, asian thugs, etc.

Matter of opinion there GUEST. I'd say most of the worlds REALLY BIG wars have been waged by white, non-Muslims against white non-Muslims. And it's the REALLY BIG wars where the most numbers of innocent people get killed.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:14 PM

CarolC...there are no innocents.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:20 PM

CarolC...there are no innocents.

I guess that's a matter of opinion too. Though I suppose the word "non-combatant" might have been less subject to debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:38 PM

hotdog-It's the attitude that "The little bastard kids grow up to be grown up thugs" which creates the problem. It is by no means inevitable, if people are willing to do somethig about it. Which would you prefer, that some gang members take advantage of the system, or that everyone who can't afford to maintain their family on legitimate income take up drug selling, robbery, or prostitution to make ends meet?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,hotdog
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:34 PM

As stated before, these people have a way of killing themselves off, the process of elimination. These gangbangers should be cordoned off. Forum Lurker, you haven't been around much, have you? Prostitutes have their place, pussy for money is here to stay.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,'yo daddy
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 03:39 PM

Another way to ease the burden on the taxpayer is to sterilize known gangbanger felons so that they not spawn more "bastard illegitimates".
But as bad as the gangbangers are in the USA, they are mild when compared to the terrorists of the world


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM

hotdog-So, you consider the children of people forced into crime as their only method of survival sufficiently guilty to condemn them to death? You seem to have an absolute disregard for the lives of the poor. I'm not a fan of political correctness, but when you dismiss a large portion of the nation's population as "gangbangers" and enjoy the fact that they are being murdered in large numbers, it just sickens me.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 05:50 PM

"Nits make Lice"- comment by Oliver Cromwell on the New Model Army's bayonetting of Irish infants.

We've come a long way in 3 centuries, Baby.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,hotdog
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM

BLACK MUSLIM TRAITOR KILLS TWO, WOUNDS 14...Now that the war is winding down we can be proud that our forces performed their duties and missions with the highest mitilary integrity and honor. All except one. The scum Akbar disgraced his unit, the military, the USA and his race and the human race. I watched the interview with his family (did anybody ubderstand a word that they said?). I even feel for these people. To be sure they will never know peace again. Muslims and especially those assholes who subscribe to their terrorist teachings must be made to understand that their way AIN'T GONNA WORK. The world will have to adopt new policies in order to deal with scum like these. Who will pay the biggest price...


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 02:18 PM

hotdog-what makes you such a bigot? You believe that "Muslims must be made to understand that their way AIN't GONNA WORK?" Are you proposing that we start with missionaries, or just begin the Crusade now?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: vietvet'67
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM

Forum Lurker...why are you so naive? To the point of being out of touch? You do read extensively, that much is obvious. I have read these missives and have decided that only those of us who have seen combat and have been exposed to people such as Akbar would deal with this scum in a manner befitting his crime. I suggest that you take a trip to some beautiful country such as Libya or Lebanon or Iran or others who base their thinking on Islam. This will open your eyes. These people do not care for your views on human rights. Pictures are worth more than words.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 05:51 PM

These people ..... you mean like gooks?


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 06:39 PM

vietvet'67-To claim that supposedly Islamic terrorists or theocrats are representing the faith accurately is no different than claiming that Torquemada is a perfect example of Christianity. "These people" wouldn't care about my human rights if we shared a religion, should that religion be Islam, Mormonism, or Unitarian Universalism. My objection is to the classification of Muslims, Arabs, or any demographic based on religion or ethnicity, as inherently evil or inferior.


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Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Sergeant Kills One, Wounds 15
From: GUEST,hotdog
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 04:43 PM

To get back to the subject at hand, what is the latest on good ol' muslim sgt akbar? Have not seen any coverage.


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