BS: Why are you for the war?

Subject: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: GUEST,non trolling guest
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:34 PM

I know this will probably turn into a general argument about the war (thoough that is not my intent), but I genuinely want to know - and hope I will find out in some of the posts, why those of you who are pro war hold that view.

As far as I can see from people I have talked to, there are basically 3 groups of people who support the war for the following reasons.

Group 1: I believe the reasons the government have given for this war (ie the possible terrorist threat Iraq posed, the humanitarian concerns about the regime, the WMD's needing to be got rid of etc) are the real reasons and therefore I believe the war to be necessary.

Group 2: I believe the reasons given for the war are primarily bogus and that there are other factors which are more important to our governments. However since the liberation of the Iraqi people from a terrible regime will be the result, I nevertheless support the war.

Group 3: I believe the reasons given for the war are primarily bogus and that there are other factors which are more important to our governments. I believe that these other motives are valid, and therefore support the war on that basis.

So if you support the war, which of these groups would you say fit your views most closely? Or have I missed some other reasons for support that you would like to about?

A non trolling guest

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: mg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 02:46 PM

I hope it is read as not being "for the war" but for what will hopefully result...at the very least a people free of torture and a more stable situation in the mid-East and a message to tyrants everywhere..when we are ready we are coming after you. And an acknowledgement that you can't predict what a war will bring...trigger WWIII or whatever. So with that said, I am a number one...not 100%...there are certainly geopolitical strategies and strong economic factors that exist..but are copacetic with number one. A steady, secure supply of oil for the now short term while we switch to greener energy is not a bad thing for the mideast or for the west or for impoverished countries who we can help better if we are prosperous.

But some of these slogans bandied about...Bush's thing about his father, we're out to capture their oil wells, a distraction from economic problems...strike me as loony tunes. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM

Good luck non-trolling Guest, but I doubt you'll find ANYONE who thinks they're really "FOR the war".

For me it was simple. Dozens and dozens of simple half-truths, repeated over and over again by the current American administration. I was brought up to question ANYTHING that I thought was taking advantage of people's naivity. I'm definitely not a pacifist, but this carnage was not neccessary....not at this time...and perhaps not ever.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: leprechaun
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 04:23 PM

I was somewhat reluctantly in support of the PEOPLE who made the decision to go to war because I believe they are acting in good faith. I've been party to many decisions made by government officials, and I know that actions of much less import than war are usually made with much circumspection, and analyzed ad-infinitum from a thousand perspectives. The vast majority of people in this forum seem to filter their opinions through a lens that paints those government officials as the epitomy of evil. I see how shrill, petty and vicious they can be, and how angry they are now that the war hasn't gone as badly as they hoped.

If there was ever a chance for a peaceful solution, I believe it was flushed down the toilet when all the loud, obnoxious, speciously anti-war flag-burners convinced Saddam or others in his regime that we in the free world were not committed enough, not united enough, to force him to change.

So here's a fourth reason for being "for" the war. If you can call it "for" the war, I came to that conclusion because I saw what kind of people were "against" it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Sam L
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 06:21 PM

Hitler believed a free-thinking army could never match a dictated disciplined regime, and it's a perfectly sensible thing disguised as a paradox that there is strength in skepticism and discord.

I'm not really for the war, but since the war began, I am for hoping for the best outcome. I am glad to see a brutal dictator fall, whatever the motives. And I doubt the whole "motivation" theory counts for as much as people often seem to think, anyway--it's only in poor fiction and seductive conspiracy theories, not in life, that the future neatly obeys anyone's will.

   I also don't bother about the morale of the troops, since nothing I say or do could possibly undermine that more than the dazzlingly inept diplomacy of Bush, or the undermining of supplies and support accomplished by Rumsfeld.

I guess I'm for the war because it's already happened. Before that I wasn't sure, but doubted it was necesary, or a good idea, because I found the leadership unconvincing, ill-tempered, poor-spoken (by which I mean that it was never for a second a very good idea to frame the question in terms that lent themselves to interpretation as a religious war) and generally muddled-sounding.

I guess I have no original reasons for it, but I do hope it may serve as a deterent to other tyrants who might consider amassing large-scale weapons. I just don't know if it will be seen that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 06:34 PM

in general, I'm for war...

It tends to be good for the economy... it functions on some level as population control... it often provides fantastic advances in medical science...

And well, it give the big boys and chance to go out and play with their toys in the sand...

Which keeps their attention off me and stuff I like...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 07:09 PM

War is Evil, this war was a choice between an evil, and a greater evil of letting Daddam H continue uncontrolled, and removing his regime.

But you have missed out one major category in your choices, those who are so besotted with hatered of Bush and America that they would find reason to complain whatever Bush did.

Gareth - from the European side of the Pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 07:16 PM

Fundamentally, war is an insane effort to change conditions. It usually comes when saner efforts to change conditions fail or when they are asserted to be unworkable by those who feel they will gain from the war.

I am all for a quick and successful end to the war and will be glad of any good that comes of it.

But I am disgusted that it was as ineluctable a choice as it was.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 07:47 PM

It's a fallacy to believe that war is good for the economy. Nothing construction comes of a war. It's a destructive process.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 08:43 PM

The destruction of materials that need to be reconstructed can lead to a temporary boost in local economy...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: mg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 08:43 PM

They have found Saddam's secret police files. There is a story on the Drudge report right now. Read up on that in the next few days and say again that nothing good can come out of a war. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 09:49 PM

Unlike leprecaun, I don't trust the people who made the decision to go to war. But it's my army, not theirs. Once the die was cast, I supported my army. The publicly claimed goal is worthwhile, no matter what the secret agenda might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:05 PM

misophist-Supporting the army is very different from supporting the war. No one WANTS our soldiers to be injured or killed. Many people don't think they should have been placed Iraq, and a good portion of them think they should be taken out, but that's not failing to support the troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: The Pooka
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 12:29 AM

Guest UnBaitcasting Guest, you did a pretty good job with your Categories there. 1 and 2 overlap a bit re the Human Rights Rationale; but, so what? So do we all.

I think (seriously) that the main category you left out--understandable oversight--is that in which Clinton Hammond tonguecheekily (??) located himself, namely, those who are For the War because they are For War generally. (Hmm "Generally" indeed; lemme rephrase that, Colonel, Ret.) Actually there are lots of people who feel that way. From a distance, usually (though not always). The "USA Kicks Ass!" caucus, yknow. Some of them would overlap into your category 3. However, those folks aren't heavily represented among the Folkie Folks here on the 'Cat.

OK. Me, I'm mostly category 2. I like freedom & so I like seeing murderous bloody tyrants thrown down. By their own enslaved victims if possible; by outside forces if necessary. I think that brutal Arab totalitarians deserve such fate no less than (just for one example) Teutonic ones. I applaud the destruction of Saddam & the supposedly-Muslim Ba'ath for *precisely* the same reasons I would have cheered the ouster of Franco and & the purportedly-Christian Falange, if only somebody had had the nerve to take the Generalissimo down before the Almighty decided it's Time he was Workin' Down Below. (I don't equate Hussein to Hitler only because that denigrates the sheer magnitude of Hitler's evil; his only competitors are Stalin & Mao.)

Can we get rid of all the world's bad guys? No. / But we can start somewhere. And Baghdad was a very good place to start.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 02:20 AM

misophist, I haven't heard of nor seen any reports of any flag-burning by anti-war protesters. Do you have anything you can cite for that claim?

Rick, well said.

Clinton, this war has done nothing for the US economy but make it worse.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: musicmick
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 03:19 AM

I support any and every strike at Moslem fundimentalism which I consider to be the most dangerous group on the face of our planet. They are intolerant, fanatical and endowed with seemingly limitless funds. They have killed without pity and they are not vulnerable to comprimise or compassion. Their rigid opposition to the existance of Israel has been the unsolvable enigma of the MIddle East. They are no more tolerant of their own "heretics" than they are of infidels or "Great Satans". They were foolish to attack the US, to kill thousands of Americans. Hopefully, we will take these psychotics seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 08:57 AM

Musicmic-Those are some scarily broad generalizations you've made. Muslim fundamentalism takes many forms, some of them no worse than American born-agains. They are by no means united as a single organization than any other religion, and Israel bears a certain responsibility in their conflict with the Palestinians. To paint all of them with the same brush risks uniting all of Islam against us, which is exactly what you are afraid of.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 09:28 AM

Are the people who supported the pre-emptive war against Iraq also in support of pre-emptive war against Syria and then Iran? That's what's next on the agenda.

Anyone here in favor of a more or less permanent state of war until the US, UK, and Israel have completed dominence over the entire world?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 09:36 AM

katlaughing:

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. The only claim I made is that it's MY army. What has that to do with flag burning?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 10:59 AM

misophist, oops, sorry, my mistake....I should have addressed that question to leprechuan. My apolgies.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: musicmick
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 11:13 AM

Forum Lurker, you are a dreamer. These murderers are no different than any other cult assasins. They murder chilren (on purpose). They would kill you in an instant. They would kill me in half an instant.
How many sky-jackings, suicide raids, school bus bombings will it take to wake you up to the frightful danger these groups represent.
Of course, the actual killers are a small percent of the radical Arab world but, without Saudi oil money, they could not operate and, without a sizable support system, they could not hide.
Your transparent shifting of blame onto the victims (Somehow they must be responsible) suggests that your position is not quite as objective as you think it is. America did not deserve 9/11 and Israel did not deserve the ceaseless horrors visited upon them except, as Clint Eastwood says in THE UNFORGIVEN, "We've all got it coming."

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 11:22 AM

musicmic- Who is "they?" Are you honestly suggesting that every Muslim in the world lends support to terrorist organizations? Do you believe even that every Muslim government does so? How do you get the idea that I think ANYONE deserved to be blown up? I realize that there are a number of groups that wish to kill Americans, or destroy the American way of life (whatever that means today), etc., and that many of them use a corrupted version of Islam as the basis for their ideology. That doesn't in any way justify a condemnation of the entire Islamic belief system, which is what it appears you are doing. I'm a lot more worried about the governments with nuclear weapons than I am about any small fanatical organization. Al Qaeda can kill hundreds, maybe thousands. America, India, Pakistan, or China could kill six billion and change.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: TIA
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 11:59 AM

All muslims were somehow involved in 9/11 = All Christians were somehow involved in Oklahoma City.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 12:10 PM

I think it is easy to forget just how much Islamic fundamentalism has been fermented in the refugee camps of Palestine and Lebannon. The best weapons for fighting potential terrorists (and oddly the cheapest) are food in their bellies and medicines for the sick. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak.
I have said elsewhere that if the US and UK are serious about ridding the world of Islamic tyrants, they could perhaps start by deposing the truly appalling House of Saud.
Now that the US and Britain have made such a noble stand against terrorism and genocide, I look forward to them bringing to book the man who ordered the massacre of the Shantila Camp some twenty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 01:23 PM

Let me just answer the question for supporters of the war (since they are staying away for the most part):

I am for the war because:

I believe what the national TV and radio media tell me every day.

I believe that "Father Knows Best".

I am a patriot.

The other side is evil incarnate and must be destroyed!

I can trust people like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfled, George Bush and Colin Powell.

I believe that the USA is the last great hope of the World, and the defender of freedom, liberty, and justice.

It is my duty as an American to support the war.

Saddam is evil and must be stopped. Osama is evil and must be stopped. Chavez is evil and must be stopped. Castro is evil and must be stopped. Everyone who is different from "us" is evil and must be stopped, and we cannot shrink back, appease evil, and be wishy-washy weaklings who won't defend ourselves against evil.


There. As you can see, it fits Nazi (or Stalinist) psychology like a glove. These are the kind of folks Hitler needed millions of in order to run the 3rd Reich effectively. They are well-intentioned and completely out of touch with reality. They are order obeyers par excellence, imbued by absolute faith in their own righteousness and the righteousness of their cause.

Every great conquering empire is served by a host of such conventional minds, fighting imaginary evils while serving organized evil on a far grander scale.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM

there is overlap in some of the reasons eg 1 & 2.
I never found some of the stated reasons particularly convincing, (ie. WMDs, link to terrorism) although I never thoroughly discounted them either. (that Saddam tried to acquire wmds in the past is certainly no secret, building a nuclear reactor in a country with huge oil reserves, using chemical weapons during the war with Iran, and on the Kurds) whether Iraq still had them is another story, although having read of Saddams fascination of weapons Im not sure that he had given up trying to acquire them as after all he was a survivor and the best way to remain in power is to have wmds.
In his interview with Dan Rather he stated that his one regret was not having nuclear weapons when he invaded Kuwait.

I would say that my primary reasons for not being against the war, are humanitarian, Iraqi people will be free from the killing and torture that has gone on for the past 30 years.

probably the most convincing reason that the US has gone to war is the idea that by setting up a democratic state in the middle east will lead to further change in the region - ie. the US new world order - (its certainly risky and) whether this really will remains to be seen. But one can look at the asian countries and its quite clear that the post war growth in Japan set an example for South Korea, Thailand and other emerging asian economies. a Pivotal issue is also the settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - as long as that continues it will cause uncertainty in the region and further inflame anti-western feelings.

I dont believe that Iran is next, there is already popular pressure for reform in Iran, as far as North Korea - the threat of nuclear retaliation will prevent any US attack - probably what will happen would be an attempt to blockade NK. NK is close to economic collapse anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM

Iran's not next. Iran comes after we're done with Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 02:49 PM

Little Hawk,
   I definitely do NOT believe that people who are "for" the war can be pigeon-holed into the complete description that you've drawn here. You might as well be saying that anyone who agrees with you is a straight-thinking inciteful person willing to think things through to a logical conclusion, whereas anyone who doesn't agree with you is a mindless puppet who can't come up with an entire thought on his/her own. Perhaps that is why you don't get many replies for those who are in favor of this war. Anyone who has spoken up in these threads has been called war monger, puppet and has not been given any credit for just simply having a different opinion.

   I talked to some naval reserves on Saturday night during a break at a gig. I went over to talk to them and thank them for what they do. They looked at me like I had three heads. After talking for a while I realized why. One said, "We're takin a beating...all we want to do is do our job, and all I hear people talking about is how we shouldn't be over there. How innocent people are being killed. You can say what you want about how they support the troops, they just don't support the war and President Bush, but it's what WE are doing that you're complaining about, so like it or not, we're the targets of the verbal abuse and insults." These are people whose job it is to put there lives on the line to protect the rights of those who think what they are doing is wrong. Kinda ironic if you ask me.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Sam L
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 03:03 PM

Little Hawk, I find some of your reasoning quite convincing, sometimes, but, sometimes it seems quite a stretch, as above. I do not believe that Bush and co. are the masters of public opinion that you imply, I don't believe Bush's bumbling ineptitude masks a mind like a steel trap. I think you fall into that idea that these people actually control everything, when they really only play their part, and I recomend you read War And Peace, and Karl Popper. If there weren't some valid reasons for action, some fairly reasonable fears mixed into it, Bush could never have launched a war.

I don't believe that all the dangers of inaction were completely imaginary, just because they don't touch me where I live. The war may well be quite wrong, even in the compromised, practical sense in which a war might be considered the right thing. But it isn't wrong like Hitler, it's actually quite different.

Your view of people who support the war is a cartoon, and though it does sound a bit like Bush's ill-chosen and potentially disasterous terms, it doesn't sound much like the people I know who do support the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

Well, Frank, you're right in what you say. I appreciate what the soldiers are facing, the pressure they're under, and all that. I understand how they must feel. Soldiers have a tough job, and part of that job is maintaining loyalty to and belief in the system they fight for.

I'm just saying that an aggressor always counts on that portion of the population who tend strongly to trust in the existing authority structures that they are most familiar with. The kind of people who go into police work, military service, and that sort of thing are psychologically most inclined to follow existing authorities.

The kind of people who go into the Arts and academia are more likely to question existing authority structures and oppose the official line.

There are always individual exceptions to these general rules too.

I was drawing a general character sketch of a type of thinking I see a great deal of, that's all.

I was not implying that all those people who disagree with me are stupid. They're not. You can be VERY intelligent and still be wrong about something. Or not. As the case may be.

Take any issue, and you will find plenty of highly intelligent and capable people on both sides of it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Beccy
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

TIA- While I see the point at which you are driving, there's one basic problem. Tim McVeigh was an avowed atheist. You need to change your argument to "...all atheists were involved in Oklahoma City."...

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: TIA
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 04:35 PM

Beccy - I did not know that McVeigh was an avowed atheist. That is incongruous with his association with the Militia and Christian Identity Movements and his emulation of "The Turner Diaries". Can you steer me to any references? (Not doubting you, just fascinated -- Thanks.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM

The point is still there - to equate "Muslim" with "Terrorist" is to equate:

"Catholic" with "IRA"

"Catholic" with "Mafia"

"Buddhist" with "Yakuza"

"Baptist" with "KKK"

"Protestant" with "Branch Davidian"

"Any branch of Christianity" with "Nazi"

Or any given religion with "Serial Killer".

The list goes on. Racist profiling and logical fallacy is a dangerous place to live. It's a road that leads to Auschwitz and other apertures to hell like it.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 04:51 PM

How can anyone say they are 'for war'? It's like saying they anti-life. We are sending our own over there to fight for a cause, and some may not return. How can you be for that? However, you have thousands of people living in poverty and persecution and a dictator living in glamerous palaces and a possible threat to our own countries safety...and I believe that is a cause worth fighting against. Just make sure we do it right so we don't have to go through this again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 05:03 PM

Just make sure we do it right so we don't have to go through this again.

What, in this case, would you say "do it right" means?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Beccy
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM

TIA- Give me a little bit to hunt that one down. I am forgetting my source.
I remember the first time I heard he was an avowed atheist was during the talking heads coverage of his execution where they discussed why he refused to consult with a clergy member.
Let me look around a bit to find where I read further on that subject.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 05:32 PM

The "do it right" thing, that didn't come out right. I mean, history sometimes repeats itself, lets not let someone take over Iraq that will be just as bad as what we are trying to get rid of.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Beccy
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 05:44 PM

Okay, here's some stuff to start. I recalled that the person who started my whole interest in Tim McVeigh's religious persuasion was Paul Begala. I heard him say that McVeigh was an atheist and did a bit of research. That research is long since gone, but this is what I found in a quick google search:

Short reference to McVeigh's religious persuasion

I'll have to spend some more time on this later as I have to start on dinner. I promise I'll do more...
Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 05:59 PM

Uh-huh. But McVeigh was very likely only one of a number of people involved in the Oklahoma City bombing, so I think his religious leanings are rather unimportant, whichever way they went.

It doesn't say much, whether or not he was an atheist.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 09:50 PM

Well danged! I just read that 116% of the Americans are fir the war so I holed up with my Wes Ginny slide rule for a couple of days and we figgured that with 114% of the American people being fir then war then we had better get with the program. Heck, ya' never know when they are gonna quit takin' applications... Right?

So I figure, seein' as I'm now part of the 114% majority that I couold just throw in a few countries that need a good whuppin'! Well, Virginia is at the top of my list. Bunch of terorists and they got WMD's to boot.

And how about Latin America? They send these folks up here to work fir peanuts and drive down the satndard of living of good old American workers? Yeah, how about a a few thousand sorties being flown over Mexico and El Salvidore? Yeah, now that I'm on the wagon, this is getting real fun.

And how about all them homo's in France? They gotta go. And them arraogant Germans. Nuke the crap out of 'em! Boy, this is easy!!!!

And North Korea. Nuke 'em! Syria? Nuke 'em! Egypt? Nuke it! And Jordon? Nuke it! And Palestine? Nuke.... ahhhh, foget it, Isreal has them, And California? Nuke 'em! And Indonesia and the Phillipines? Nuke em! AQnd Canada?............

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 10:39 PM

AP/Yahoo: "Sharpening the Bush administration's rhetoric, Powell said, "They should review their actions and their behavior, not only with respect to who gets haven in Syria and weapons of mass destruction, but especially the support of terrorist activity."

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites), in a parallel thrust at Damascus, said Syria's support for terrorism and "harboring the remnants of the Iraqi regime" were unacceptable.

But she indicated the administration was not contemplating military action.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 11:20 PM

Uh-huh. It begins with threats, accusations, and innuendo...emotional blackmail. And it proceeds from there. A certain amount of hate propaganda must be spun through the media prior to making any actual attack.

This is all marketing. In America, they sell a war the same way they sell sneakers and fast food. They do saturation advertising to Joe Public. Advertising manipulates the viewers with quick, snappy visuals and short, spiffy sound bites. The viewers react like Pavlov's dog and respond in a predictable fashion, and the next sale is soon made.

Count on finding out all kinds of terrible "revelations" about Syria and their leader (the next "demon" of the corporate media) in the next few weeks or months, while the country with the most WMD's, the most violations against the UN, and the worst record of aggression sits righteously by like a sacred cow, holding its 400 or more nuclear weapons quietly to its bloodstained breast, and running its dirty little apartheid regime.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:26 AM

Little Hawk-Since when is America apartheid? I don't know about worst record of aggression, since Britain has a much longer history as a continuous political body, but we certainly have the most nuclear weapons, and probably biological and chemical too.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:48 AM

I was referring to Israel. America has many, many thousands of nuclear weapons, not just 400 of them.

Israel, you see, is so sacrosanct (due to past horrific injustices against the Jewish people by the Nazis and others) that to merely mention their name in a critical way in public is unwise, as it arouses extreme reactions in people who tend to react first and think later.

It's kind of like being in Iran, and criticizing the Koran. You do it at your own peril. This is not what's supposed to happen in a democracy, which is why I'm pretty cynical about the moral pretensions of our society.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:53 AM

I have yet to see any credible evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein's regime and organized Islamic terrorism. To the contrary, I believe that Saddam Hussein was at least as fearful of Islamic terrorists as he was of G.W. Bush.

What do the Islamists want? They want temporal power to be vested in the Church, just like it was in Europe in Medieval times. Saddam was not an Islamist. Yes, he was a Muslim, but he was not a devout Muslim and he damn sure never wanted the Church to exercise any temporal power. He wanted all the temporal power for himself. He effectively kept the Shiite majority, from whose ranks any Islamist movement would be most apt to sprout, under his thumb.

Furthermore, I firmly believe that if Osama Bin Laden had been given an opportunity to assassinate Saddam and see an Islamist government put in his place, he would have done it in a heartbeat, fellow Muslim or not.

Now, back to the original question: "Why are you for the war?" I'm not. I was not opposed to the '91 Gulf War. I was not opposed to U.S. intervention in the Balkans. I was not opposed the ousting the Taliban in Afghanistan. But, to borrow from your own reason #1, I believe the reasons the government have given for this war (ie the possible terrorist threat Iraq posed, the humanitarian concerns about the regime, the WMD's needing to be got rid of etc) are the real reasons. I believe that they are noble goals. But, I believe that the benefits to be gained are outweighed by a tremendous number of possible, even probable, negative consequences. I would gladly be proven wrong in this belief, but only time will provide that proof.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:58 AM

Little Hawk-Yes, Israel probably has more nukes than Iran. America has more nukes than every other country beside Russia and China combined. Yes, Israel violates a number of UN resolutions. Once you strip away the loaded language passed by anti-Semitic Arab nations and their allies, you'll find that Israel's human rights record and record of aggression are not nearly as bad as that of such nations as Sudan, North Korea, China, and many others. If war is to be the solution, Israel shouldn't be near the top of the target list, and if it's not, why bring it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: musicmick
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:58 AM

I resent my position being skewed into a condemnation of Islam or the entire Arab world. I'm sure that I never said any such thing. I said that a sizeable and fanatic horde make the Moslim radical right as dangerous as they are. Another point you might consider before labling me as a bigot is that Timothy McVeigh did not act in the cause of Atheism, nor does the IRA purport to represent the values of the Roman Catholic church. (The IRA, in fact, is a military orginization, nationalistic in purpose and, whether one agrees with their cause or not, they dont blow up American buildings because America does business with the UK).
It is not me who claims that the terrorists represent the Arab peoples. It is the crowds who cheered in the streets of Amman, Gaza and Bagdad to celebrate 9/11. They thought it was just dandy that thousands of Americans were killed. Is ir possible that you missed those outbursts of joy? Gee, it was on all the news stations.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: leprechaun
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 02:12 AM

Katlaughing - yes I saw flags burned by anti-war protesters. People, admittedly in splinter groups, burned them in New York, in Paris and in Eugene. (big surprise)

And some of you folks need a few lessons in profiling. You talk about it like it's a bad thing, but not if you do it right. You gotta have skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 04:18 AM

I hope you did not interpret my post that way, musicmic. I had intended it to sound polite and temperate. My point was that unreasonable circumstances give rise to unreasonable movements - and even terrorists. I like the terrorists about as much as you do, but I see the struggle against them as being a very long term project. Bush's empty rhetoric is concerned with nothing but the symptons. If people feel they have no redress against monstrous injustice through the international law courts or through international law, they are likely to observe only their own laws. The suicide bombers feel that they have nothing more to lose in this world and that they have no hope of achieving justice through the United Nations. The recent cavalier disregard shown to the UN Security Council will not improve the situation either. For me, terrorists are essentially the Orcs of this world. They simply have to be eliminated. However, there is no long term solution in killing terrorists if new ones are being raised daily. That is why it is so desperately urgent that clean water, medication and food gets into the worst deprived Arab areas as soon as possible. It is cheaper than fighting wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are you for the war?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 08:00 AM

Well, I am for the war, because, with two million people in jail, one out of every eight American Black people in jail, it is getting lonely for the vets of past wars who live in card board boxes, so many homeless vets are now in jail, so now, soon there will be lots of other new vets to keep them company. And new guys on the street need teachers, so, for example Bobby, (see my song Bivouac of the Forgotton post - a music post) who was awarded a silver star in Viet Nam can feel useful again. Bobby was a sargent, so he organises the guys on the street, so it is like getting new recrutes for him.
Cheers
Larry