BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?

Subject: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:24 PM

Well danged! Looks as if the Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Perle administration missed on rather obvious and increasingly inmportant aspect in their "liberation", or what ver, of Iraq. The country is made up of 60% Shiites Muslims, who tend to favor a fundamentalist Islamic government. Hmmmmm? Could it be that Bush dumped a guy who wss bending over backwards to please the US over the last few months to get themselves something even worse?

Well, I understand that Katerine Harris and Jeb Bush are going to be dispatched to Iraq proir to any elections to make sure thing come out *just right*! I wish them luck. Their guy's represent at best 20% and the Shiites triple that... Man, it's gonna take a lot of dimpled chads to swing this one.

But what I don't understand, and maybe someone can enlighten me here, is how could this major screw up occur in the planning? I mean, I still have my 1969 college geography book and it plainly says that the Shiites make up 60% of the population of Iraq!

Now I know where I failed my country. I should have mailed that book to Bush months ago....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:29 PM

Aw, now, Bobert, don't you beat yourself up. You know he does't read much. Not a college level reader, if I understand correctly.

But, now, you gotta understand, this kind of mistake can happen -- he probably thought all that talk about Shiites was just those military types talking tough, like they do. How was he to know?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:33 PM

AND...
   ......where are the weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:40 PM

Shucks, Bobert, 'tain't yer fault. See, Bush2 was told over and over about the Shiites, but he thought those folks who were warnin' him were sayin' "Shiiiiiiiiiits" and that led him to think that 60% of the Iraqis had dire rear (also called the scours, the green apple two-step, the runs, and so on). This led G2B2 to assume that the Iraqi army would be at only 40% strength at any time, so he ordered up a war jist like his daddy's.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:13 PM

Sniff, Iz still feelin' like I've let my country down. You know, not tellin' Junior about the Shiites.

Yeah, I reckon he could have just thoughtm that Rumsey was just callin' these folks, ahhhh, "Shiiits" but that ain't no conserlation now.

Well danged. What's do ya' reckon Jinior gonna do now that the he finds out that this ain't no medical situation but a political one that has his guys representin' 15% of the Iraqis....at best!

Well, I think he outta crate up every votin' machine in Florida dn get 'em all over to Iraq ASAP. And as for the goons he hired to bang on walls and scream at vote counters in Florida, I reckon he better deputize 'em all and send 'em too...

Yeah, that outta work....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:14 PM

Maybe he'll broaden his views on faith-based charities?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:18 PM

As I said in another thread, you can bet your ass that when a new constitution is hashed out for Iraq, a provision for separation of church and state will be written into it. There's no way that the American overseers are going to let it fly otherwise. It'll be "back to the drawing board until you get it right" until the final draft meets with GWB's appointees' approval.

The question is whether or not the Iraqi people will actually pay any attention to such a provision.

By the way, the only provision for separation of church and state in the U.S. Constitution is in Amendment One of The Bill of Rights which only states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...". It doesn't say word one about, "The people shall not elect a religious fanatic President".

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:43 PM

My continuing reaction to the aftermath in Iraq is to snicker at the realization that ALL of us underestimated the Iraqi's. They have learned their lessons well about what a free society is supposed to be like and they are running with that idea.

Mass peaceful political demonstration in the streets of Baghdad today? Yea Iraqis!

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:44 PM

Well, danged, Brucer! This is gettin worser by the minute! Looks like these Shiites has got 'em all religionized and well, they make Jerry Fallwell, look like a screamin' liberal! Danged!

Iz beginning to think we are gonna just have to nuke the entire joint, pave around the oil wells and put up a big McDonald's in the middle of it? Hey, wasn't my idea. The Wes Ginny slide rule came up woith it... But it's lookin' rather hopeless fir Bush. He gets that "democracy" he's been preachin' and their first act is to tell Bush, "Get out of our face!"

Hmmmmmm? So this is what we spent out tax bucks on that would have provided *health care* for every American man, woman and child?

Just where is Teribus when needed to straighten my confuzerated hillbilly butt out?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:25 PM

I think I may have driven teribus into a nervous collapse, by rebutting his lengthy lectures with approximately one tenth the time and verbosity he generally employs.

If so, I am stricken with remorse...

It will indeed be odd if the Americans threw out one secularly-inclined Sunni leader (Saddam) only to install another against the will of the Shiite majority. The Iranians are also Shiites. The plot thickens by the day. Osama Bin Laden and the Wahabbi fanatics in Saudi Arabia must be utterly ecstatic over the downfall of Saddam and the whole general situation that is unfolding. It is all to their advantage.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:37 AM

LH, no need to be "striken with remorse" in the least - been on holiday - that's all.

Hi there Bobert,

This just another of your seemingly endless tirades against your country's current administration? You must be feeling rather cheated at the moment, your predictions of hundreds of thousands of casualties and the inevitable "Stalingrad" type battle for Baghdad, have all come to nought, so it only seems natural that you would leap onto any bandwagon to have another swipe at your government.

No miscalculation, Bobert, the whole of their planning was based on the demographics of Iraq that you contend they have no knowledge of. Your current administration has steadfastly said that ultimately the government of Iraq will be selected by the Iraqi people - It's early days yet Bobert - Too early for your usual doom and gloom predictions, but that has never stopped you in the past. For my part I am content to wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:51 AM

Might I remind you of Algeria, Teribus, where they held a democratic election in which the government was wiped out by the Islamists. The slogan was, "We don't want democracy, we want Islam". The only forms of government available to Algeria are either an Islamic tyranny or a non Islamic tyranny. I am not convinced that Algeria is unique.
Indeed, let us wait and see what happens in Iraq!

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM

As to not being a war of attrition, I have difficulty seeing any other way when tens of thousands of troops are being attacked in their home city. That's the kind of fighting that looks like Stalingrad. The reason Desert Storm never got to that point is that Saddam's forces were defeated and destroyed in detail well outside of any cities. That's not going to be the case this time around.

Who was it who has predicted this scenario a few threads ago?

No, no, no. Bobert, the name who comes to Teribus' mind here as the first obvious choice is the wrong answer (though Bobert has predicted 'house to house' street fighting).

'Forum Lurker' is the correct response here.

'Karl Marx' too has kind of predicted a Stalingrad but who takes him serious?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:53 AM

On the serious side, I am not favourably impressed by the way the USA handle peace now. They do not seem to be half as good in 'peacefare' as they are in warfare.

To tell Iran that they have no business whatsoever in Iraq was a 'brilliant' piece of diplomacy. To hear these news on TV only gets a roaring laughter from a German audience.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:47 AM

The popular media in the US is gunning for Iran these days, Wolfgang, which makes me inclined to be on the watch for possible military action there by the US in the not too distant future. That's how it works here. First we start seeing a lot of critical pieces about the country/regime in the news, to get us worked up into a state of anger or hatred, or righteous indignation (the last few days they've been gunning for Iran and Castro in the popular media). If they do that for longer than a couple of weeks, there's a pretty good likelihood that the US is going to take some kind of action against them within a few months. It's really pretty predictable if you know what to look for.

Anyone who thinks the popular media here in the US is anything other than a vast propaganda machine is greatly deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:55 AM

Carol:

Terribly unscientific -- surely you have some statistics for us?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:00 PM

Just personal anecdote, Amos. I think you should compile the stats for us. I'm sure you've got a good head for numbers.

On the other hand, everyone can just watch the news keeping what I said in mind, and see for themself whether or not it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:38 PM

LOL! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:13 PM

Well, gee Bobert, if you are right and Iraq winds up with a theocracy, I guess we just should have left well enough alone and left Saddam Hussein in place. That IS the logical extension of your argument isn't it? We should have left a monster running the country because they might go for a government similar to that of Iran?
Have you looked at Iran recently? The young people want modern, western clothes and music. They Like MTV. How long do you think it will be before they vote in a more secular government?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM

troll; teribus: will you quit raining on Bobert's parade please!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 08:08 PM

THE PAST IS PROLOG

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:31 PM

Well danged. Saddam is or was certainly a crook and not one to win any "Mr. Congeinality" awards but, like it or not, the US made him, supported him when it was *convient* and could have had him as a lap dog anythie they wanted. All it would have taken was for Rumsey to call him up and take him a few trinkets fir his trinket collection and Saddam would be licking Runsey's hand like a loyal dog...

But that would have been toop easy and not emptied the DOD shelves which, as any idiot can figgure out, will need restocking....

As fir the Bobert's prediction of the house to house fighting, this little episode ain't over! Sure the conventional part is over, but what happens when the Iraqis get tired of being "occupied" and ruled?
Yeah, I can see the same situation that the Isrealis find themselves in and we can sit in front of our TV's lookin' at folks throwing rocks at Isreali tanks on one side and Us tanks on the other.

Screwed up foriegn policy. And the US is leading the world as models of conflict resolution????.....

Hmmmmm, Beginning of the "Endless War". What a crock of dung! I lost an old dog, Shep, last year and burried him up in the woods, but I'll guarentee you that I could dig up that dead dog and he could do a better job than the theivin' idiots who are making a very feeble attempt at the job.

BTWm what ever jhappened to the Department of State? I reckon that Rumsey will have Junior just do away with it, too, when he catches his breath from admiring himself in the mirror!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: toadfrog
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 11:54 PM

The Shiites can remember, among other things, that last time the Americans told them to rise up against Sadaam, and then left them to his tender mercies. And that we used to support Sadaam. When he was using all that poison gas. Those guys have long memories for what affects them. Now our only friends in the area are the Kurds. Who have no friends, and have been left in the lurch so many times they are desparate. I will bet you this, Teribus. I will bet you, that when Bush sees what the alternatives are, like making enemies of the Turks, he leaves them in the lurch as well.

Troll, what are you trying to say? Are you trying to say we should go overthrow all the bad tyrants in the world? Did you think we were right in throwing out Baby Doc Duvalier (one of the few who were clearly as just as bad as Sadaam)? I bet you just hated that. Are you saying we are in Iraq to save the poor people there from oppression? Seriously?

The problem is this. We are in Iraq because Bush, Rumsfeld & Co. want to control Iraq. Just watch how we take over oil production, which belongs to Russia by treaties enforceable under international law. Just watch how we demand the right to permanent military bases. The Iraqi people know that is why we are there. They do not like the idea. Many of them are fundamentalist Moslems. Fundamentalist Islam is the only alternative to Sadaam. It is the only organization that survived him. Those are very intense people. They know how to make their displeasure felt. Remember Al Quaeda? We are creating more Al Quaedas. If Bush and Rumsfeld hang in, and they will, we are very likely do have an Intifada. Like in Israel. Something like Vietnam in the desert. Like the idea?

Doubtless we will hear a lot about how ungrateful those benighted A-rabs are. Phooey! They know what is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM

I hear on to-nights News that North Korea is throwing down the gauntlet, now this country is a real no, no,for the Texan terrorist.
Bobert please be in time with your warning. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:25 PM

I note on tonighht's news that it has been officially stated that America will not permite an Islamic Republic in Iraq, even presumably if that is what people there want.

If, between now and the US Election, the situation in Iraq has moved on to one where an army of Americans is supporting an unpopular imposed regime, in the face of armed opposition by Iraqis who would prefer something more on the lines of Iran - will that be to Bush's disadvantage or advantage?

I mean, opposing a sitting President while American soldiers are being killed in a foreign war is unpatriotic, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM

How many times in the past have we propped up a puppet government, to the detriment of the majority, then, had it come down on our heads?
Let's see, The Shar of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, Baptista, Samosa. And, those halfwits are doing the same damn thing again. Do any of those idiots know anything about history?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM

Errr ! Minor fact of correction on a previous post from Toadfrog

"Just watch how we take over oil production, which belongs to Russia by treaties enforceable under international law."

What treaties ? What enforcabilty ? Any treaty or contract obtained by corrupt means is void ! under any law - Sorry Russia and France bet on the wrong horse.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM

I don't think it would be to Bush's advantage for that to happen McGrath. But that doesn't mean the Bush team couldn't win the election even under those circumstances. I think it would be difficult at this point to make any predictions about how such a situation would effect the upcoming election.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 07:45 PM

But on that analogy the horse that was meant to win appears to be faltering badly, and liable to fall.

"Any treaty or contract obtained by corrupt means" would include anything agreed by an imposed pro-American regime, once it is displaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 09:54 PM

O.k. Gareth. I suppose any treaty is invalid if obtained by corrupt means, and we decide what means are corrupt. Meaning we get to throw out any treaty inconvenient to ourselves. Things like that do happen in international politics. Hell, people disregard domestic contracts too, and if they have enough clout, they get away with it. I'm a lawyer, I've seen it done.

But putting all these legal considerations aside, it still appears that Operation Iraqi Freedom or whatever really comes down to a smash-and-grab operation. The Iraqis have enough experience to recognize it for what it is, and what follows is likely to be extremely unpleasant for all concerned. And yes, McGrath, you are right, the worse the outcome for the U.S., Iraq, Britain and everyone else, the better it is for Bush. The more horrible the mess he gets us into, the greater his patriotic appeal. Unless he actually loses a war. That's one of the bases of Fascism, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Another Slight Miscalculation by Bush?
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:47 PM

See this for another example of satire bringing home truth.

Cheers,
Michael