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BS: Vegetarianism the truth
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST Date: 02 May 03 - 05:37 PM Around here, the calves produced as a result of "freshening" dairy cows seem to be raised for veal. At least that's what I assume is the fate of all the little calves -- both male and female -- tied to dog houses in the barnyards of the local dairy farms each spring. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Richard H Date: 02 May 03 - 03:56 PM As a dairy farmer (cows) from 1975-1989 and goat-milk producer, 1989-present, I'm learning a lot here. Never heard that they were sexing semen for dairy animals (although technically it should be possible). We use frozen semen from Canada and get about 50 percent male calves. Dairy breeds, far from being "inedible", produce good meat. I would imagine much of New Zealand's exported beef is culled dairy animals. I was for some years Government Agricultural Officer in charge of Vegetable Research and have never been too keen on cereals and veggies after seeing how much poison has to be poured onto them to keep away the bugs and diseases. It's like someone giving you a drink of water from a bottle that formerly contained poison. You'd hesitate to drink no matter how well it was washed. We often do not even wash off the poisons off veggies; we rely on a safe "harvest after" date. By the way, we in Barbados are in the middle of an awful drought. As a farmer I couldn't grow anything. But my goats eat the leaves off deep-rooted trees in nearby gullies and are in the pink of condition. Of course you might be able to grow fruit trees in those gullies... if you're prepared to kill off the monkeys who live there. I like the monkeys and I like meat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Schantieman Date: 02 May 03 - 03:19 PM In the UK, most dairy cattle are produced by crossing a Friesian cow with a Hereford bull. You can tell the hybrid cows coz they have a white patch (a Hereford feature) at the top of their face. The heifers go on to be good milkers (as good as a pure-bred Friesian?) and the bull calves can be reared for low grade beef - burgers, I suppose. (Proper (i.e. tender & yummy) beef needs proper beef strains like Aberdeen Angus or Charolais). If pure-bred Friesians are used (and I have my doubts about this sex-selection AI business!) the bull calves are slaughtered at or shortly after birth coz they're virtually inedible, and not worth raising. The above is my understanding of the situation, based on approximate academic familiarity with it over the last 20 years or so. I may well be out of date and am quite prepared to be corrected by someone who really knows what they're talking about! Fish stocks have been depleted by overfishing partly for food species, but also for fish to turn into fishmeal for animal feed (for supposedly herbivorous cattle!) and even for fertiliser!! Enjoy your dinner! Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 02 May 03 - 03:00 PM Peg - he was a bright lad who got a good grade, I think he knew what he was saying! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: JennyO Date: 02 May 03 - 02:23 PM "Good health is just a slow way of dying." - Les Barker |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 02 May 03 - 11:28 AM LOL! Sooz that is pretty funny. Wonder if that student was trying to be facetious (double entendre wise) or was just completely clueless? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Sooz(at work) Date: 02 May 03 - 06:36 AM KateG - Beef cattle are not just the males in the milking herd! They are a completely different breed, selectively bred and exploited for their meat. Dairy cattle are produced by artificial insemination which can accurately control the sex of the offspring. (The male sperm are separated out and not used.) As a pupil of mine once wrote in answer to an exam question - this is necessary because the males don't make the right kind of milk! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Mark Clark Date: 01 May 03 - 06:06 PM I remember eschewing catfish because they came from horribly polluted rivers, didn't taste good and were probably dangerous to eat. Now I enjoy catfish several times a year. They are raised on catfish farms, are healthy to eat and, depending on the restaurant, taste great. Inexpensive too. When you fly from St. Louis to New Orleans on a clear day, you'll see catfish farms clear to the horrizon. I'm afraid my diet will continue to be based on taste appeal. I don't eat much red meat but neither am I a vegitarian. I suppose I'll die someday. I thought Redd Fox had a good line, “All the people who exercise and watch what they eat are going to feel really stupid when they're lying in the hospital dying of nothin'.” - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: KateG Date: 01 May 03 - 04:53 PM How long would it be before cows, sheep, goats, pigs, chickens etc became extinct if we didn't eat them? They don't make great pets, and can no longer survive in the wild. And if you eat dairy but not meat, what happens to the male offspring of the animals that are providing the milk? No annual pregnancy, no milk, and statistically 50% of the offspring will be male. If you can't keep them, it seems unethical not to make full use of the gift of their life. I agree that the modern diet is out of whack, with far too much processed and refined food, and that modern intensive models of animal raising are cruel and wasteful. What we need is to find a balance between animal and vegetable sources of food, and find more ways to encourage sustainable and humane farming. I don't have any good answers, and am still figuring out how to eat. Was lethargic as a vegetarian, constipated on Atkins (tho I did lose weight and felt energetic). Am trying to develop a diet that revolves around whole grains and beans, but has enought protien and fat to provide energy without gaining weight. Am also trying to figure out how to fit in a second 2 mile hike with my dog without quitting my job and starving). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: sledge Date: 01 May 03 - 04:49 PM Over fishing may not be a new thing but the industrial scale on which we do it certainly is, and still we are told that we should include more fish in our diet, so where is it going to come from? the UN food council currently estimates that 75% of fish stocks are at, or have passed the levels of safe exploitation and it isn't getting better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: MMario Date: 01 May 03 - 03:47 PM I think you will find that the over-fishing extends back quite a bit before fish was being pushed as "heart-healthy" Essentially humans have been over-fishing as soon as they/we were capable of doing so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Beccy Date: 01 May 03 - 03:45 PM Okay... how 'bout we all just give up eating altogether and kill off the human race to make everyone else and all the animals happy???? No one seems to be willing to cut someone else slack and wants to prostelytize about how their diet is the only one for anyone and if you DON'T eat like them you're killing off this species or that species or you're malnourished or you're whatever... Come on- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: sledge Date: 01 May 03 - 03:58 AM Just a thought for those who like to supplement their diet with healthy fish as opposed to red meat and poultry, just look at the state of the worlds fisheries since we all started to consume more and more fish. The North Sea is now severely restricted because of over fishing and the Grand banks decimated. We are now seeing fish types appear for consumption that were not previously put up for sale because we were used to munching on the more traditional cod and flounder and sea bass. How many dolphins are massacred each year so we can enjoy our tuna sandwiches, dolphin friendly fishing is supposedly widely implemented, for real? Or is it just to salve our conscience. The Blue fin tuna is on the point of extiction, Tuna lines kill tousands of sea birds annually accidently. Just think what would happen if we all suddenly decided to give up steak and eat even more healthy fish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: mg Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:58 PM the original humans in the African savanna or wherever might have been fructivores...but their descendants moved. How much fruit would there be in Norway in winter? In spring? Obviously they had to adapt to what was present for them. Those who could not adapt died. Simple. If you are a Norwegian, you probably won't make a great fructivore..but maybe so...one thing I have read repeatedly is that if you come from coastal stock, eat fish...lots of it..salmon especially if you are northern...they say that brains evolved based on a fish diet and we need those fish oils...think of how little fish we eat and how much depression, ADD etc. there is...also if your ancestors ate a lot of dairy, give it some good thought. If they didn't, then don't. Our ancestors co-evolved with certain food sources. You can bet the bank that we need what they needed. Of course, people are greatly ethnically and biologically mixed so it is more complicated. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 30 Apr 03 - 06:38 PM We resemble chimpanzees the most, and they are definitely omnivores. They consume insects and small birds on a regular basis, and occasionally young chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are our nearest relatives both genetically and behaviorally, in that they engage in intra-species warfare and domestic abuse, among other activities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Roughyed Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:26 PM What humans who eat meat usually are is carrion eaters. Very few humans eat meat while it is still kicking like true predator carnivores. No they wait until it has been dead for a long while, then cover up it's taste by spicing, cooking, salting - anything to make it taste different to freshly killed raw flesh. Some of the people on this site must have very strange bodies if they think they are naturally omnivorous. We resemble our nearest cousins the gorilla and orang utan (both frugivores) in dentition, digestive enzymes and gut formation a damn site more than we resemble the average pig (although I have seen some people that I would say the jury is out on). I don't think that this invalidates anyone's diet. Eat what you like but don't misrepresent biology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: TIA Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:44 PM ...dowsing building sites for zones of disturbance or potential dampness problems... Aaaaarrrggghhhh! must...go....to...rant..thread....NOW |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:35 PM Wow Peg, what a lot of information. Mike has fair to red hair (had I should say, its more grey now!) but he likes hot weather and spicy food. I'm not keen on most spicy foods although I love pickles and I'm not comfortable with hot weather. We're both irritable but don't have a tendancy to skip meals so I don't know if that has an effect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM Peg-I'm afraid that the system doesn't work for everyone. I match the Pitta type quite well (except for the hair), and I love spicy foods. I also do poorly when out in nature, as sunlight afflicts me similarly to hay fever. I suppose my mongrel ancestry might have something to do with it; my ancestors range from Slavic to Semitic to Saxon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM Sooz; well, in the Ayurvedic system ths might mean you have the Vata or Kapha doshas dominant, while Mike has Pitta dominant. Kapha needs more spicy foods; Vata can tolerate them all right. Pitta is supposed to avoid them entirely. Tell me, does he have fair or reddish hair? Does he have a hard time in hot or humid weather? Does he get irritable easily (especially when skipping meals?) Does he generally have a healthy appetite and abundant energy and good muscle tone? these (among others) are common to Pitta types. Pittas have to avoid heat and humidity, spicy, rich or fermented foods, and anything that will cause tension (including violent TV at night, etc.). They do well to get out in nature frequently. I have a great book on all this by Deepak Chopra called Perfect Health. It's an interesting system. Even if one does not completely buy into the types etc. most of the advice is very pragmatic and is primarily based on a "listen to your body" sort of approach which makes more sense than trying to follow a diet or regime that isn't right for you even if it worked wonders for a friend... Of course some people just can't tolerate spicy food. I can eat some spicy Indian food but I ALWAYS get some raita for its "cooling" effect--Indian cuisine has Ayurvedic balancing principles built right in, and special blends of spices can be added to foods to bring the doshas back into balance. Some ethnic groups do very well with the "indigenous" foods of their culture and little else; others can and do eat everything. I come from Italian-Sicilian and Irish-Scottish stock--I cook almost everything in olive oil or butter,and thank goodness for my mediterranean heritage or my cholesterol might be through the roof! But I also exercise which is supposed to help too. According to Ayurveda I am a Pitta-Vata dosha type; and I do find I feel better when I avoid the foods indicated in the dietary guidelines. I can't handle spicy or red-hot food though I do like a bit of it. No wasabi on my sushi, no extra hot chicken wings for me! I am also supposed to avoid sour cream and other fermented things (this is diffcult as I love sour cream and yogurt). I do well eating lots of fresh fruits and veggies, salads, and fish, although some of my favorite sour fruits are supposed to be consumed in moderation (like strawberries and grapefruit). I can eat meat, chicken and eggs relatively frequently (although Ayurveda recommends no red meat and small amounts of chicken or shrimp); but too much grain or doughy food (bread, pasta, etc.) makes me feel kind of ill. I agree with whoever said there is no one right way to do any of this. I do enjoy reading about all of these systems though and seeing what logic they all have in common (if any). Another absolutely great book by two German naturopaths is Moon Time which details traditional ways of maintaining health according to moon phases. Sounds whacky perhaps but think about how everyone is affected by the full moon. If we do indeed absorb chemicals more intensely at that time as this book says, that would go a long way to explaining why people get weird, and the emergency rooms are fuller than usual on these nights. The new moon on the other hand is a good time for detoxification. The book deals with far more than nutrition; there is even a fascinating section on sound construction practices (felling wood, digging foundations etc.) following moon phases. These rules were followed for many years but fell out of fashion in the last century. Think of the houses most people live in and which sorts have the fewest problems: either they have swell old places built before or into the Victorian era; or post-war places that often have problems with termites, leaks, drafts etc. Or they chuck it all and get something brand new because they can't be bothered with fixing up something old. No one follows the traditional building methods anymore because it is faster and cheaper not to. God forbid a contractor wanted to wait until the new moon to dig a foundation, but that's exactly what they did in the old days). Apparently these old methods are catching on again in Europe...including dowsing building sites for zones of disturbance or potential dampness problems. peg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Sooz(at work) Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:16 AM Spicy food interests me. When Mike eats a spicy meal it brings him out in a sweat and he goes bright red. When I eat the same food I am unaffected. Why is this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:22 PM The Ayurvedic system says I shouldn't eat spicy foods because I'm already spicy enough. I reckon there is probably some truth to that - but I love spicy foods, and am not willing to give them up altogether. Anyhow, hot peppers are sposta be good for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM These "body type" diets have a long history. There's the ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph diet (remember wen it was all the rage in the late 1970s?) which roughly corresponds to the Ayurvedic system... which is based on not just body type but emotion and temperament... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM Proponents of the blood type theory, Peter D'Adamo and Steve Shapiro have published a book and have created websites. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM The latest pseudo (bogus?) scientific theory on diet is that people with different blood types should eat different foods. The idea goes that around half the population has blood type O because it's the earliest type to emerge in human evolution and has been inherited by more people. The theory also supposes that early humans' primary diet was meat; ergo, people with type O blood should have diets that rely heavily on meat. Other blood types evolved at later stages in human development and people with those blood types should have a diet consistent with the common diet at the time their blood type first appeared. The theory sounds good except that prehistoric man was evidently a frugivore, not a carnivore. Still, I know people who plan their diets based on this theory and report good results. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:34 AM The truth about vegetarianism is that it's great for some, and not so great for others. I love veggies and eat some every day. I don't always eat meat every day. My health is excellent and I'm in great shape. I found the thing that works for ME, which is what you all have to do. I do not believe that there is One Absolute Way of Eating that is Right For All People. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Beccy Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM Okay, I've been flip, but I'll be serious for a bit. I was a vegetarian for 7 years (ending about 10 years ago.) I had some serious energy problems. I was lethargic and got every little virus that came around. I was seriously anemic. I was VERY careful about getting all the right nutrients and combinations of proteins, so I knew I was getting good nutrition. I never thought about meat, so it wasn't that I was craving it. One day I decided that a piece of fried chicken looked good, and I'm still not sure what possessed me to try it, but I did. I felt so good that day. A few weeks later, I was at a Polish Festival and saw some Kielbasa on a spit. I had already taken the great chicken leap, so I went ahead and tried a Kielbasa with onions and peppers. I felt great. I decided to reintroduce small amounts of meat. Two months later, my anemia was gone. I was no longer lethargic. I wasn't getting all the little bugs circulating. I'm not saying it's right for EVERYONE to eat meat. Some people feel much better without it. My point is that my body needs meat and I am aware of that. I feel better health-wise when I eat it. You may not- to each his own. I don't like it, though, when people moralize to each other over their dietary choices. Beccy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: mg Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:44 PM if you were on an Atkins-like diet 2 or 3 years ago, and did well on it, then your body is telling you you should stay on a version of it. You can't go on an off it..of course you will gain your weight back. I think everyone needs to read Body Typing..or some such name..I'll have to dig out the book. Basically, it says there are 3 (probably with endless permutations) types of metabolism...those who do well on vegetarian/grain based diets, those who have a mixed diet need, and those, and I am one, who have high needs for animal protein and FATS. DAIRY FATS. We do just very well thank you on them. He gives you a test you take and you can tell what you are. You are almost guaranteed to have health problems if you don't eat right for your type..this is not the blood type diet..a dentist came up with this originally, but it really makes sense. And of course it depends on your ethnic heritage..if you are of a single heritage and your ancestors were thriving, eat what they ate (and work like a horse)... Read Dr. Mary Enig..Nourishing traditions...she gets into saturated fats...essential for some people..generally of Northern ancestry...and fish oils are very essential for some people. In general, there is consensus that there is no need ..and great harm..in eating artifically produced fats..margarines etc...don't mix that up with untouched saturated fats, which some bodies do fine on. Also refined sugars, and flours..don't forget the flours. Read Dr. Schwarzbein on diabetes, prevention and reversal.... Dr. Mercola has a web site and he is really into this body typing...if you do well on a vegetarian diet, by all means eat it. Don't insist that others do. A good percentage of adults do just fine on dairy foods..and if they don't get enough fats and proteins will, mark my words, get diabetes. And really make sure you are making sense when you say how many cows can be supported by one acre of land. Where is the land? Arizona or my part of Washington, which could support all sorts of cows or goats or whatever. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:23 PM fiddler-The gut is already lined with a mucus-like coating, and lactose is already broken down by the time it gets to the small intestine, which is where nutrient absorption begins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,kimmers Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:34 PM I don't there is any subject more rife with opinion and controversy than nutrition, and what is "right" may be different for different people. Whoever commented about the Inuit... well, yeah, how would they survive without meat? But we who have access to greater variety, and are used to it, would be well advised to seek it out. And we all need to eat less CRAP! Ban the Twinkies and the chips! I personally don't like meat very much. Once in a great while, I crave it... and when I do, it is invariably something very bad for me like bacon or a nice greasy pork chop. Yum. But most of the time, I'd rather have vegetables and whole grains. And yes, dairy products... while some people have trouble digesting them, many of us love the stuff and do well with it. I think it really depends on your ancestry. Mine were Irish, so I think I should live off a diet of potatoes, cabbage, bacon, cheese, and stout... just kidding! I have low cholesterol, and have mostly maintained an ideal weight; except for recently when I've had to take some meds for my asthma that have ramped up my appetite. That, and too much of the aforementioned stout. Beer has too many damned calories!!! I respect my vegetarian friends and I do not make fun of their eating choices; when with them, I just eat like they do. I find them far easier to cope with than my office staff, half of whom are on the Atkins diet and very cranky right now. The funny thing is, they were all on something like it 2-3 years ago as well, and were just as cranky, and they all gained all of their weight back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: fiddler Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM Milk I am told lines the gut with a mucus type coating and therefore reduces digestive capeability. Fits with the old trick of drinking a pint of milk to give staying power when you go out drinking non veggie beer!!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM I find that dairy is much easier on my digestion than beans, in general. Lactose-tolerance is fairly prevalent in European populations, and I believe northern African populations, but most other ethnicities have trouble. I think it derives from rates of dairy consumption in ancestral populations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:45 PM I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never had a problem digesting dairy products, except in the odd case of over-consumption. I very rarely have digestive problems at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,jennifer Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM If there's one thing that adult humans really are NOT designed to consume, it's dairy products! I believe if one wishes to be vegetarian because you think modern farming is cruel you would have more effect by purposely buying high welfare local products and encouraging those who are making steps in the right direction. Also, permaculture school of thought says city dwellers should be meat eaters because it's cheaper to transport for the same nutritional effect. And surely it takes less fuel to grill a steak than to simmer a bean stew? And the methane produced by the human after eating the beans would be less than that after eating the steak? In the UK large tracts of the landscape we value have been produced by hundreds of years of stock rearing - to be strictly vegan you shouldn't look, or something. Jennifer And I have eaten meat I reared and killed, by the way, felt very good about that. Seemed right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:13 PM It took me so long to type my last post that you guys got in while I was chewing the cud. I'm not a vegan. I use moderate amounts of hopefully humanely produced eggs and dairy products but I don't wear leather shoes. Those cows did not die of old age! By animal bi-products I mean the gelatine derived from bones, hooves etc that holds a lot of confectionary items together, cheese made from bovine rennet etc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:09 PM The enzymes produced in the stomach digest protein only in the very acid conditions of the stomach. Carbohydrate digesting enzymes are produced by the salivary glands and mix with food in the mouth and by the pancreas from where they mix with food in the duodenum. They work best in neutral conditions. There are also a couple of protein digesting enzymes made in the pancreas. Poor absorption of nutrients is usually due to food moving too quickly along the guts. This is easily controlled by a high fibre intake coming entirely from plant cell walls. No animal product has fibre and the high levels of fat associated with most meats simply grease the progress along the gut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: MMario Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM I thought vegans eschewed all animal products? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM Sooz-When you say "animal by-products" are you referring to dairy and eggs, i.e., are you a vegan? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Peg Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM "Peg, that's not entirely correct. There are some grains that don't have the vitamins/minerals in a form that humans can digest. You need two different types of grain which react together - you then get more nutrients from the two together than you would get from either individually." What are you talking about exactly? It sounds like what you are referring to is the fact that to make a "complete protein" one must combine grains with legumes (i.e. rice and beans, corn and beans etc.); this is something that is a cornerstone of vegetarian eating, the idea that to achieve high-quality levels of protein one must combine food carefully; but that is not what I was talking about. The "vitamins/minerals" in grains are not connected to their digestibility...nor do different types of grains "react together" (what does this mean exactly?) I was speaking of the enzymes produced in the stomach for the digestion of starch (grains) or protein (flesh); when they are eaten together these enzymes work at cross purposes and lead to poor absorption of nutrients and incomplete digestion (and putrefaction) of these foods, and THAT is the problem of digestibility I was referring to. When you are talking about vitamins and minerals the issue is absorption; not digestion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM Grad - I don't need meat! A varied balanced diet of everything but meat (and animal bi-products) has kept me very healthy for thirty years now. My immune system is very strong and its at least eight years since I needed to take any time off work due to illness. I'm getting a bit fed up of the references to teeth - human teeth aren't adapted to do anything in particular. In fact they are a bog standard set of unspecialised gnashers. Tiny canines of no use for tearing anything tougher than the wrapper off a Mars bar and miniscule molars useless for grinding grass. Fortunately most of the plant material we all eat raw does not have silica in its cell walls like grass does so we can cope with it perfectly well and do not need the huge continuously growing molars of grazing animals. Yes Mooman - you are a folkie and so am I.Unfortunately I'm also a Biology teacher who can't resist the odd lecture spasm! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: mooman Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:04 AM I'm now reaching about 23 years as a vegetarian... It seems to at least suit my constitution anyway and several doctors advised me to go light on the meat (digestive problems in the past). In the end I gave it up completely. I'm almost teetotal too these days! (Small lapse onto the vile black stuff in Portaferry...just for medicinal reasons of course!) Egad! Am I a folkie at all?!!! mooman (rather big and muscular 'Catter!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Kim C Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM All right then, go tell the Inuit they don't need meat. I dare ya. Kinda hard to grow many grains, fruits and vegetables on the tundra. Plus they need the fat because living in that cold of a climate requires extra calories to stay warm. Anyhow..... everyone is different. I think our eating habits have a lot to do with geography - what's available where we live, and what was available to our ancestors. I tried going veggie once. I was hungry all the time and I gained 20 pounds. I, personally, DO need meat, but I also recognize that others' mileage may vary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: fiddler Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:36 AM Unfortuantely teh vegan message board has died - someone hacked in to it! The truth is we are built as omnivores - yes - proven form tooth structure Most eat too much meat for their own good - proven but research. Meat is costly to produce as stated above! (the theory that the worlds food problems could be soved if we all went veggie or vegan is open to much debate) It doen't hurt anyone to be veggie It does hurt animals to eb carni or omni We would not have some of the rare breeds whcih are nice to look at if we didn't eat meat in the past. Production of these rare breeds was primitive GM research. I don't like GM either. Live and let live - I don't eat meat - I can't eat nuts and many oils so I have to compromise in some areas. I cook meat for non veggies if I have to (in their houses when they don't know what to do with it). I let my kids make their own decision - they both eat meat I'd rather they didn't but Live and let live! Speaking of Athletes I ahve run 3 marathons and countless half marathons and on top of that I play the fiddle! GRIN Sorry couldn't resist my bigoted live and let live two penneth!!! Grinagain A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Jim Tailor Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM risky bidniz for high output atheletes (like distance runners). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Forum Lurker Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:49 AM Grab-Eggs and milk provide most of the nutrients you normally get from milk. A well-rounded vegetarian diet can be more healthy as a fully omnivorous diet, if only because the raw protein comes with less saturated fats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Grab Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM Peg, that's not entirely correct. There are some grains that don't have the vitamins/minerals in a form that humans can digest. You need two different types of grain which react together - you then get more nutrients from the two together than you would get from either individually. Sooz, you *do* need meat, or rather you need the nutrients you get from it. If you want to do without meat, you need a very specialised diet to provide these nutrients (see paragraph above). Some countries have evolved these diets over centuries ("evolving" because people who ate other things tended not to live as long), so they can live without meat. But just removing meat from an existing diet is a guarantee of malnutrition-related problems - rickets was endemic during the Industrial Revolution, when poor people couldn't afford meat and didn't know what foods they needed to eat to stay healthy. Granted, we do now know how to do this though. As for efficiency of land use, sure, grain-fed cows are a very inefficient use of land. But cows browsing permanent pasture are doing so in areas where the land couldn't easily be used for grains/vegetables. And sheep farming in hilly areas, or cow/sheep farming in scrubland areas such as commonly found in the US and Australia, are using areas which would not otherwise provide any food for humans. Also consider fishing - it's obviously not possible to sow seeds in the sea! Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Sooz Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:38 AM Has Les Barker written one about us vegetarians? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:34 AM "My snails have not yet arrived" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Pied Piper Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:47 AM Every year I try and eat some Wild food. The Council kindly plants lots of edible Cherries around here and there delicious. Most years I manage to find some Field Mushrooms and there is always Shaggy Ink cap. Lime leaves are nice this time of year. I once had the idea of starting a Snail ranch, producing the molluscs for local Restaurants, you could feed them on waste veg and they don't take up much space. I decided in the end against it, the risk of stampede was just to great. All the best PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth From: Rapparee Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:29 AM Mmmmmmmmm...bugs with tomatoes, garlic, and cinnamon! 8-) |
