BS: Vegetarianism the truth

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:27 AM

Consider what primates eat: fruit, mainly. Oh, and bugs.

But chimpanzees like to hunt down Red Colubus monkey to eat - in fact it appears about one in five of these is killed each year by chimps. (See here) Mind, I don't think the other Great Apes go in for this, so maybe our people didn't either, to start with. Made up for it later though.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:26 AM

This thread seems a lot more balanced and informative than the one that spawned it.
I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit along with small amounts of meat particularly oily fish (smoked Mackerel aaaaaaagh). I to avoid the trans fatty acids found in Hydrogenated vegetable oils.
Here's a few diet health tips I've come across over the years.

Oily Fish- Essential Fatty acids (good for lowering cholesterol). Tined fish such as pilchards, rich in calcium.

Tomatoes- Cooked with oil, the richest source of Lycopene (helps protect against arteriosclerosis)

Avoiding osteoporosis- This is particularly important for women. Some foods Cheese and meat being the worst create acidic digestion products, as these enter the blood system for transport they cause the body to compensate to avoid the bloods pH dropping. If the amount is small the citrate buffer system in the blood sufficient to cope, but with large amounts the body responds by making Amines from protein in the Liver and mobilising Phosphate from the bones(this also mobilises Calcium from the bones).
Fortunately green vegetables and fruit have the opposite effect, so eat Cheese and meat with plenty of veg(Spring Cabbage aaaaaagh).

Garlic- I think every one knows about this, and the other members of the Onion family

Cinnamon- This is reputed to help prevent late onset diabetes, the health effect coming from 1/4 teaspoon a day.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:23 AM

Jed - are you sure you eat vegetarians? Ideally that should be true, but most of our farm animals don't get a choice what they eat and the cheaper commercial animal feeds are most definitely not exclusively plant based. Enforced cannibalism is often nearer the truth. This has lead to the proliferation of diseases such as CJD in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:11 AM

The frugivore thing does make sense. Consider what primates eat: fruit, mainly. Oh, and bugs.

As for "bad science" well, it is annoying that so-called scientists and experts cannot even agree on what is a healthy diet...but some things we know.

We know preservatives and processed sources of saturated fats are bad for humans. We know processed sugars are VERY bad for humans, exacerbating some of our worst health problems including tooth decay, alcoholism and diabetes. We know the body DOES digest food more efficiently when fewer foods ar eaten at once, particularly if one avoids combining proteina nd starch together at one meal, and the best aporoach to this is the "mono-diet" or one food at a time...The typical "English" Sunday dinner or Thanksgiving spread wreaks havoc because of the bad combining...

We know that most people are far less active today than they were in the first half of the last century. We know we die in greater numbers from diseases directly related to diet than at any other time in our history. We know that eating too much of anything is not a good thing. We know that eating a food as close as possible to its "live" or natural state is far more healthy than eating food which has been freeze-dried, frozen, canned, smoked, pickled, dried or otherwise preserved.

I highly recommend a book called "Native Nutrition." It details the history of the diets of a number of indigenous populations throughout the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:44 AM

Great subject for a BS (blue smoke) thread. I get the impression that diet is one of the major categories of misinformation, on the Net and elsewhere. Every “authorative” source seems to contradict every other “authorative” source. Some theories are based on a clinical estimate of human nutritional needs, some on assumptions about early humans in an idealized “natural” state and many are based on what some particular industry has to sell.

I did some searching on the Net to see what might pass for actual independent information and haven't yet found much. I did run across a guy in California named Mark Blackburn—with an MBA! How's that for credentials in nutrition?—who looks as though he's at least tried to get some independent information together. Here's a link to his site where he also has references and links. He makes the case that homo sapiens are neither carnivores nor omnivores but are actually frugivores and cites studies documenting the health benefits of a diet of fruits and vegetables. He also piloted his boat from Toronto to Miami, Florida. His site is an interesting one to browse.

I also came across a page calling itself The Encyclopedia of Fruitarianism and Rational Living at the Fruitarian Universal Network site. I haven't spent much time there but they may have links to other information as well.

I still have my copy of John Robins' book and while I skipped over the first half of his book, dealing with the poor treatment of animals by agra-business, the chapters on the health damage caused by eating animal products were well researched and compelling. I haven't radically changed my diet as a result but it made me think I probably should have.

Maybe I'll have to look into this frugivore thing.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM

Well, the way I look at it is that I'm being efficient. Instead of wasting my time eating 16 pounds of hay (which I don't like) I eat one pound of cow (which I do like). Or maybe a Bambie or two - little butter, little garlic, yum! And I try to get some of them endangered species once in a while before they disappear completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:44 PM

Look like a lotta bad science being passed for gospel here ... I eat meat. I love it. I eat lotsa veggies, grains and fish too ... pretty low on the fat (I just don;t like it) ... stay away from the fast food ... use real butter (in small quantities) and olive oil. I'm 50 years old and maintain a 152 cholesterol level - 'course I'll probably drop dead next week from an anurism!

Hasn't helped my spelling or my typing, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:41 PM

I could say something in reply to Jed, but I'm much too polite to do so. Plus, I'm not a vegetarian.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM

It's interesting to note that, as soon as a society transitions from a foraging lifestyle, eating fruits, easily preparable vegetables, and game, to a sedentary agricultural society, their lifespan and health both plummet precipitously. Archaelogical evidence indicates that it hasn't been until the last fifty years or so that average health in First World countries reached their pre-agricultural levels. This is due both to the consumption of grains, poor in protein and other nutrients for their caloric content, and the domestication of animals, from whom we get our epidemic diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM

I eat Vegetarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

I'm trying to give up on fake butters, the ones with hydrogenated fats and loaded with trans-fatty acids, and go back to using butter (judiciously), olive oil, and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:12 PM

Experiment with your diet, and see what works best for you. Listen to your body, and let it tell you what it "needs". Don't fall for it's squirming and complaining addictions... and be aware of the effects that your lifestyle has on your nutritional needs. Sedintary people need far less protien that do athletes...

...also, curtail the preservatives, and the sugars... They are more dangerous than we know, I fear...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

"Our teeth are made for tearing flesh" - not very efficient with raw flash actually. Raw fish maybe. I've always like the idea we're descended from sea-apes, living in and out of the sea on the beach, sort of cross between mermaids and beachbums.

Animal protein such as worms and insects would be fine too - but raw meat from big animals isn't too easy at all. Chimps have much better sets of teeth than we have, and they can only manage little monkeys.

I always assumed we are designed to eat anything we can get hold of, and most of the things we could get hold of would have been vegetation of one sort or another, because they can't run away.

And anytime there's a forest fire, there'd be cooked meat for a treat, because you could get your teeth round it. So they learned about how to start forest fires. And then some bright spark thought, "Why not do it the other way round - kill the food first and then make make a small fire to make it edible..." And we never looked back.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM

Even though I do like to tease my vegetarian friends with my statement above, my own diet has changed dramatically over the years. It now is far, far heavier in grains, vegetables, and non-red meats than it was, and those meats I do eat are eaten in much smaller quantities. And I prefer game to farm-raised meats, not because I want to kill things but because mankind has so screwed up the natural predator/prey relationship that to my mind it would be unethical NOT to hunt. Actually, I'd like it to be that you weren't allowed to eat any meat you didn't kill yourself, but that's not going to happen.

Consider, though, that what this society calls "vegetarianism" can actually be effective only in a culture with an efficient food distribution system. In the past, Springtime meant fresh green plants to eat and an end to Winter's scurvy-causing lack of vitamins (Arctic peoples dealt with it differently).

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM

"folks who make a decision to NOT follow the mainstream"

Ya... that way they can be an individual... just like all thier friends...

Mmmm... "Caveman Diet" Now THAT I want on a T-shirt!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM

Spaw,

Could you please stop infecting every thread with an 'hilarious' fart joke. Please.

It's getting very old, and somewhat tiresome.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:00 PM

Not to mention, and since no one has, I will, the 55 million metric tons, give or take a few million, of methane emitted by cattle every year. Please be sure your cow's catalytic converter is working properly.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:54 PM

I am omnivorous, myself, but were any vegetarians to land on my step they would be fed with an array of goodies from my garden and grove. Carnivores and Omnivores like garden fare, too.

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:53 PM

Just one note. While grain-fed cattle do consume resources at the aforementioned 16-to-1 ratio, grazed cattle can make use of land which simply cannot support cereal grains. It is a waste of resources to grow grains in order to feed sedentary cattle, but free-range animals are using land that we cannot, without extraordinary amounts of fertilization and irrigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:30 PM

Sounds good to me.

Look at newsreels of America in the 40's, 50's, and 60's...and note how much slimmer the general public was at that time!

People in this society are killing themselves through their junk food diet and their sedentary lifestyle.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:07 PM

Well, actually humans are omnivores. We have not been eating grains for very long given our gastronomic history. Early men and women ate meat (raw usually) and green plants, fruits and nuts. This model is now being touted as the "caveman diet" for maintaining good health.
It differs from the high-protein Atkins model because it allows fruit (a natural and most nutritious food for humans!)
Our teeth are made for tearing flesh, and also for grinding plants. Quite a machine is the human body. Our intestines are made such that they require a large amount of fibrous material to move waste matter efficiently. In primitive cultures a bowel movement after every meal in the norm. In the USA and other industrialized nations, one is the norm (and for some not even that). Little wonder we are addicted to drugs that do this work for us, and that the types of cancers and disorders prevalent in our society are almost entirely due to poor digestion and elimination. These diseases were unknown in early mankind.

Also there was far less FAT on the animals our ancestors ate, as compared to the ones we eat now that are raised for slaughter (don't get me started on the hormones and antibiotics pumped into our chickens cows and others--DO try to eat naturally-raised animals, it's better for us and more human for them).
AND last but not least, umans were far more ACTIVE back then; and we did not eat three squares a day. The rituals and ceremonies surroudning the hunt were significant: a successful hunt meant food for a short period of time. It took days and sometimes weeks of tracking and hunting to get that caribu that would feed the family for a few weeks...so humans' bodies learned to store fat effectively. Now, since we eat way more and exercise a lot less, we store it TOO efficiently...

As for grains, they combine protein and carbohydrate in one food. Some nutritionists say this is not good because the human body cannot digest both at the same time efficiently because of the digestive acids required for both. This is one of the principles behind food combining diets and Atkins to some extent. Some people do fine with grains; some do not. I know if I eat a sandwich on whole-grain bread every day for a week I get kinda bloated, and eating too much pasta is bad for anyone unless it's the whole grain variety.

Balance in all things...

Eat more fruits and veggies, organic if possible. Go easy on the fatty meats, and eat more lean protein, and less of it that you think you want. Drink more water, and get more exercise. Live longer if you're happy and lucky!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM

Thank you Sooz, I simply couldn't believe how many people were treating my thread seriously. My thoughts in THAT one were all a kind of running gag......my REAL feelings are quite different.

I have great respect for folks who make a decision to NOT follow the mainstream. Sometimes it's very hard to stick this out with all the peer pressure to conform......but it's kinda fun when you reach the half century mark and can say..."I may not have changed the world but Walmart didn't change me."

Wish I could have been more "veggie-positive", but I've stuck to my guns in a couple of other areas.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:06 AM

Don't forget the old saying that "you are what you eat."

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:06 AM

Ahhhh, not to sound too pompous my own self, but it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat. In a world of increasing populations meat is not only a lxary but wastefull. This is the onlt business in the world that I know of where the midddle man ends up in the slaughter house...

But, hey, I don't particularily care what other folks eat just so long as they don't ask me to eat it, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:40 AM

Ok Rick, you asked twice!
I'm a vegetarian because I don't need meat.
Nor does anyone else, but it might not be a good enough reason for you. Thats OK by me.
We can store carbohydrates and fats in our bodies from one day (or year) to the next. Protein is different. It cannot be stored, so any we eat over and above our daily requirement is actually a problem for our body. The liver converts the excess amino acids to urea which is excreted by the kidneys. To put it briefly, most of the steak goes down the toilet!
Finally the field that feeds one cow could feed ten people with a crop of beans or cereals. In a world where many people simply don't have enough to eat, that must also be a consideration.
Sorry to sound pompous but its how I fee!