BS: Vegetarianism the truth

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Mark Clark
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM

The latest pseudo (bogus?) scientific theory on diet is that people with different blood types should eat different foods. The idea goes that around half the population has blood type O because it's the earliest type to emerge in human evolution and has been inherited by more people. The theory also supposes that early humans' primary diet was meat; ergo, people with type O blood should have diets that rely heavily on meat. Other blood types evolved at later stages in human development and people with those blood types should have a diet consistent with the common diet at the time their blood type first appeared.

The theory sounds good except that prehistoric man was evidently a frugivore, not a carnivore. Still, I know people who plan their diets based on this theory and report good results.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Mark Clark
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM

Proponents of the blood type theory, Peter D'Adamo and Steve Shapiro have published a book and have created websites.

• Eat Right 4 Your Type
• Composite Food List

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM

These "body type" diets have a long history. There's the ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph diet (remember wen it was all the rage in the late 1970s?) which roughly corresponds to the Ayurvedic system... which is based on not just body type but emotion and temperament...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 12:22 PM

The Ayurvedic system says I shouldn't eat spicy foods because I'm already spicy enough. I reckon there is probably some truth to that - but I love spicy foods, and am not willing to give them up altogether. Anyhow, hot peppers are sposta be good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:16 AM

Spicy food interests me. When Mike eats a spicy meal it brings him out in a sweat and he goes bright red. When I eat the same food I am unaffected. Why is this?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM

Sooz; well, in the Ayurvedic system ths might mean you have the Vata or Kapha doshas dominant, while Mike has Pitta dominant. Kapha needs more spicy foods; Vata can tolerate them all right. Pitta is supposed to avoid them entirely.

Tell me, does he have fair or reddish hair? Does he have a hard time in hot or humid weather? Does he get irritable easily (especially when skipping meals?) Does he generally have a healthy appetite and abundant energy and good muscle tone? these (among others) are common to Pitta types. Pittas have to avoid heat and humidity, spicy, rich or fermented foods, and anything that will cause tension (including violent TV at night, etc.). They do well to get out in nature frequently.

I have a great book on all this by Deepak Chopra called Perfect Health. It's an interesting system. Even if one does not completely buy into the types etc. most of the advice is very pragmatic and is primarily based on a "listen to your body" sort of approach which makes more sense than trying to follow a diet or regime that isn't right for you even if it worked wonders for a friend...

Of course some people just can't tolerate spicy food. I can eat some spicy Indian food but I ALWAYS get some raita for its "cooling" effect--Indian cuisine has Ayurvedic balancing principles built right in, and special blends of spices can be added to foods to bring the doshas back into balance. Some ethnic groups do very well with the "indigenous" foods of their culture and little else; others can and do eat everything. I come from Italian-Sicilian and Irish-Scottish stock--I cook almost everything in olive oil or butter,and thank goodness for my mediterranean heritage or my cholesterol might be through the roof! But I also exercise which is supposed to help too.

According to Ayurveda I am a Pitta-Vata dosha type; and I do find I feel better when I avoid the foods indicated in the dietary guidelines. I can't handle spicy or red-hot food though I do like a bit of it. No wasabi on my sushi, no extra hot chicken wings for me! I am also supposed to avoid sour cream and other fermented things (this is diffcult as I love sour cream and yogurt). I do well eating lots of fresh fruits and veggies, salads, and fish, although some of my favorite sour fruits are supposed to be consumed in moderation (like strawberries and grapefruit). I can eat meat, chicken and eggs relatively frequently (although Ayurveda recommends no red meat and small amounts of chicken or shrimp); but too much grain or doughy food (bread, pasta, etc.) makes me feel kind of ill.

I agree with whoever said there is no one right way to do any of this. I do enjoy reading about all of these systems though and seeing what logic they all have in common (if any). Another absolutely great book by two German naturopaths is Moon Time which details traditional ways of maintaining health according to moon phases. Sounds whacky perhaps but think about how everyone is affected by the full moon. If we do indeed absorb chemicals more intensely at that time as this book says, that would go a long way to explaining why people get weird, and the emergency rooms are fuller than usual on these nights. The new moon on the other hand is a good time for detoxification.

The book deals with far more than nutrition; there is even a fascinating section on sound construction practices (felling wood, digging foundations etc.) following moon phases. These rules were followed for many years but fell out of fashion in the last century. Think of the houses most people live in and which sorts have the fewest problems: either they have swell old places built before or into the Victorian era; or post-war places that often have problems with termites, leaks, drafts etc. Or they chuck it all and get something brand new because they can't be bothered with fixing up something old. No one follows the traditional building methods anymore because it is faster and cheaper not to. God forbid a contractor wanted to wait until the new moon to dig a foundation, but that's exactly what they did in the old days). Apparently these old methods are catching on again in Europe...including dowsing building sites for zones of disturbance or potential dampness problems.

peg

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM

Peg-I'm afraid that the system doesn't work for everyone. I match the Pitta type quite well (except for the hair), and I love spicy foods. I also do poorly when out in nature, as sunlight afflicts me similarly to hay fever. I suppose my mongrel ancestry might have something to do with it; my ancestors range from Slavic to Semitic to Saxon.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:35 PM

Wow Peg, what a lot of information. Mike has fair to red hair (had I should say, its more grey now!) but he likes hot weather and spicy food. I'm not keen on most spicy foods although I love pickles and I'm not comfortable with hot weather. We're both irritable but don't have a tendancy to skip meals so I don't know if that has an effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: TIA
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:44 PM

...dowsing building sites for zones of disturbance or potential dampness problems...

Aaaaarrrggghhhh!

must...go....to...rant..thread....NOW

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Roughyed
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:26 PM

What humans who eat meat usually are is carrion eaters. Very few humans eat meat while it is still kicking like true predator carnivores. No they wait until it has been dead for a long while, then cover up it's taste by spicing, cooking, salting - anything to make it taste different to freshly killed raw flesh.

Some of the people on this site must have very strange bodies if they think they are naturally omnivorous. We resemble our nearest cousins the gorilla and orang utan (both frugivores) in dentition, digestive enzymes and gut formation a damn site more than we resemble the average pig (although I have seen some people that I would say the jury is out on).

I don't think that this invalidates anyone's diet. Eat what you like but don't misrepresent biology.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 06:38 PM

We resemble chimpanzees the most, and they are definitely omnivores. They consume insects and small birds on a regular basis, and occasionally young chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are our nearest relatives both genetically and behaviorally, in that they engage in intra-species warfare and domestic abuse, among other activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: mg
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:58 PM

the original humans in the African savanna or wherever might have been fructivores...but their descendants moved. How much fruit would there be in Norway in winter? In spring? Obviously they had to adapt to what was present for them. Those who could not adapt died. Simple. If you are a Norwegian, you probably won't make a great fructivore..but maybe so...one thing I have read repeatedly is that if you come from coastal stock, eat fish...lots of it..salmon especially if you are northern...they say that brains evolved based on a fish diet and we need those fish oils...think of how little fish we eat and how much depression, ADD etc. there is...also if your ancestors ate a lot of dairy, give it some good thought. If they didn't, then don't. Our ancestors co-evolved with certain food sources. You can bet the bank that we need what they needed. Of course, people are greatly ethnically and biologically mixed so it is more complicated.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: sledge
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:58 AM

Just a thought for those who like to supplement their diet with healthy fish as opposed to red meat and poultry, just look at the state of the worlds fisheries since we all started to consume more and more fish. The North Sea is now severely restricted because of over fishing and the Grand banks decimated. We are now seeing fish types appear for consumption that were not previously put up for sale because we were used to munching on the more traditional cod and flounder and sea bass.

How many dolphins are massacred each year so we can enjoy our tuna sandwiches, dolphin friendly fishing is supposedly widely implemented, for real? Or is it just to salve our conscience. The Blue fin tuna is on the point of extiction, Tuna lines kill tousands of sea birds annually accidently.

Just think what would happen if we all suddenly decided to give up steak and eat even more healthy fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Beccy
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:45 PM

Okay... how 'bout we all just give up eating altogether and kill off the human race to make everyone else and all the animals happy???? No one seems to be willing to cut someone else slack and wants to prostelytize about how their diet is the only one for anyone and if you DON'T eat like them you're killing off this species or that species or you're malnourished or you're whatever... Come on-

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: MMario
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:47 PM

I think you will find that the over-fishing extends back quite a bit before fish was being pushed as "heart-healthy"

Essentially humans have been over-fishing as soon as they/we were capable of doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: sledge
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:49 PM

Over fishing may not be a new thing but the industrial scale on which we do it certainly is, and still we are told that we should include more fish in our diet, so where is it going to come from? the UN food council currently estimates that 75% of fish stocks are at, or have passed the levels of safe exploitation and it isn't getting better.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: KateG
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:53 PM

How long would it be before cows, sheep, goats, pigs, chickens etc became extinct if we didn't eat them? They don't make great pets, and can no longer survive in the wild.

And if you eat dairy but not meat, what happens to the male offspring of the animals that are providing the milk? No annual pregnancy, no milk, and statistically 50% of the offspring will be male. If you can't keep them, it seems unethical not to make full use of the gift of their life.

I agree that the modern diet is out of whack, with far too much processed and refined food, and that modern intensive models of animal raising are cruel and wasteful. What we need is to find a balance between animal and vegetable sources of food, and find more ways to encourage sustainable and humane farming.

I don't have any good answers, and am still figuring out how to eat. Was lethargic as a vegetarian, constipated on Atkins (tho I did lose weight and felt energetic). Am trying to develop a diet that revolves around whole grains and beans, but has enought protien and fat to provide energy without gaining weight. Am also trying to figure out how to fit in a second 2 mile hike with my dog without quitting my job and starving).

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Mark Clark
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:06 PM

I remember eschewing catfish because they came from horribly polluted rivers, didn't taste good and were probably dangerous to eat. Now I enjoy catfish several times a year. They are raised on catfish farms, are healthy to eat and, depending on the restaurant, taste great. Inexpensive too. When you fly from St. Louis to New Orleans on a clear day, you'll see catfish farms clear to the horrizon.

I'm afraid my diet will continue to be based on taste appeal. I don't eat much red meat but neither am I a vegitarian. I suppose I'll die someday.

I thought Redd Fox had a good line, “All the people who exercise and watch what they eat are going to feel really stupid when they're lying in the hospital dying of nothin'.”

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 02 May 03 - 06:36 AM

KateG - Beef cattle are not just the males in the milking herd! They are a completely different breed, selectively bred and exploited for their meat. Dairy cattle are produced by artificial insemination which can accurately control the sex of the offspring. (The male sperm are separated out and not used.) As a pupil of mine once wrote in answer to an exam question - this is necessary because the males don't make the right kind of milk!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 02 May 03 - 11:28 AM

LOL! Sooz that is pretty funny. Wonder if that student was trying to be facetious (double entendre wise) or was just completely clueless?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: JennyO
Date: 02 May 03 - 02:23 PM

"Good health is just a slow way of dying." - Les Barker

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 02 May 03 - 03:00 PM

Peg - he was a bright lad who got a good grade, I think he knew what he was saying!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Schantieman
Date: 02 May 03 - 03:19 PM

In the UK, most dairy cattle are produced by crossing a Friesian cow with a Hereford bull. You can tell the hybrid cows coz they have a white patch (a Hereford feature) at the top of their face. The heifers go on to be good milkers (as good as a pure-bred Friesian?) and the bull calves can be reared for low grade beef - burgers, I suppose. (Proper (i.e. tender & yummy) beef needs proper beef strains like Aberdeen Angus or Charolais).

If pure-bred Friesians are used (and I have my doubts about this sex-selection AI business!) the bull calves are slaughtered at or shortly after birth coz they're virtually inedible, and not worth raising.

The above is my understanding of the situation, based on approximate academic familiarity with it over the last 20 years or so. I may well be out of date and am quite prepared to be corrected by someone who really knows what they're talking about!

Fish stocks have been depleted by overfishing partly for food species, but also for fish to turn into fishmeal for animal feed (for supposedly herbivorous cattle!) and even for fertiliser!!

Enjoy your dinner!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 02 May 03 - 03:56 PM

As a dairy farmer (cows) from 1975-1989 and goat-milk producer, 1989-present, I'm learning a lot here. Never heard that they were sexing semen for dairy animals (although technically it should be possible). We use frozen semen from Canada and get about 50 percent male calves.

Dairy breeds, far from being "inedible", produce good meat. I would imagine much of New Zealand's exported beef is culled dairy animals.

I was for some years Government Agricultural Officer in charge of Vegetable Research and have never been too keen on cereals and veggies after seeing how much poison has to be poured onto them to keep away the bugs and diseases.

It's like someone giving you a drink of water from a bottle that formerly contained poison. You'd hesitate to drink no matter how well it was washed. We often do not even wash off the poisons off veggies; we rely on a safe "harvest after" date.

By the way, we in Barbados are in the middle of an awful drought. As a farmer I couldn't grow anything. But my goats eat the leaves off deep-rooted trees in nearby gullies and are in the pink of condition.

Of course you might be able to grow fruit trees in those gullies... if you're prepared to kill off the monkeys who live there.

I like the monkeys and I like meat.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 03 - 05:37 PM

Around here, the calves produced as a result of "freshening" dairy cows seem to be raised for veal. At least that's what I assume is the fate of all the little calves -- both male and female -- tied to dog houses in the barnyards of the local dairy farms each spring.