BS: Vegetarianism the truth

Subject: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:40 AM

Ok Rick, you asked twice!
I'm a vegetarian because I don't need meat.
Nor does anyone else, but it might not be a good enough reason for you. Thats OK by me.
We can store carbohydrates and fats in our bodies from one day (or year) to the next. Protein is different. It cannot be stored, so any we eat over and above our daily requirement is actually a problem for our body. The liver converts the excess amino acids to urea which is excreted by the kidneys. To put it briefly, most of the steak goes down the toilet!
Finally the field that feeds one cow could feed ten people with a crop of beans or cereals. In a world where many people simply don't have enough to eat, that must also be a consideration.
Sorry to sound pompous but its how I fee!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:06 AM

Ahhhh, not to sound too pompous my own self, but it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat. In a world of increasing populations meat is not only a lxary but wastefull. This is the onlt business in the world that I know of where the midddle man ends up in the slaughter house...

But, hey, I don't particularily care what other folks eat just so long as they don't ask me to eat it, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:06 AM

Don't forget the old saying that "you are what you eat."

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM

Thank you Sooz, I simply couldn't believe how many people were treating my thread seriously. My thoughts in THAT one were all a kind of running gag......my REAL feelings are quite different.

I have great respect for folks who make a decision to NOT follow the mainstream. Sometimes it's very hard to stick this out with all the peer pressure to conform......but it's kinda fun when you reach the half century mark and can say..."I may not have changed the world but Walmart didn't change me."

Wish I could have been more "veggie-positive", but I've stuck to my guns in a couple of other areas.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:07 PM

Well, actually humans are omnivores. We have not been eating grains for very long given our gastronomic history. Early men and women ate meat (raw usually) and green plants, fruits and nuts. This model is now being touted as the "caveman diet" for maintaining good health.
It differs from the high-protein Atkins model because it allows fruit (a natural and most nutritious food for humans!)
Our teeth are made for tearing flesh, and also for grinding plants. Quite a machine is the human body. Our intestines are made such that they require a large amount of fibrous material to move waste matter efficiently. In primitive cultures a bowel movement after every meal in the norm. In the USA and other industrialized nations, one is the norm (and for some not even that). Little wonder we are addicted to drugs that do this work for us, and that the types of cancers and disorders prevalent in our society are almost entirely due to poor digestion and elimination. These diseases were unknown in early mankind.

Also there was far less FAT on the animals our ancestors ate, as compared to the ones we eat now that are raised for slaughter (don't get me started on the hormones and antibiotics pumped into our chickens cows and others--DO try to eat naturally-raised animals, it's better for us and more human for them).
AND last but not least, umans were far more ACTIVE back then; and we did not eat three squares a day. The rituals and ceremonies surroudning the hunt were significant: a successful hunt meant food for a short period of time. It took days and sometimes weeks of tracking and hunting to get that caribu that would feed the family for a few weeks...so humans' bodies learned to store fat effectively. Now, since we eat way more and exercise a lot less, we store it TOO efficiently...

As for grains, they combine protein and carbohydrate in one food. Some nutritionists say this is not good because the human body cannot digest both at the same time efficiently because of the digestive acids required for both. This is one of the principles behind food combining diets and Atkins to some extent. Some people do fine with grains; some do not. I know if I eat a sandwich on whole-grain bread every day for a week I get kinda bloated, and eating too much pasta is bad for anyone unless it's the whole grain variety.

Balance in all things...

Eat more fruits and veggies, organic if possible. Go easy on the fatty meats, and eat more lean protein, and less of it that you think you want. Drink more water, and get more exercise. Live longer if you're happy and lucky!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 12:30 PM

Sounds good to me.

Look at newsreels of America in the 40's, 50's, and 60's...and note how much slimmer the general public was at that time!

People in this society are killing themselves through their junk food diet and their sedentary lifestyle.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 01:53 PM

Just one note. While grain-fed cattle do consume resources at the aforementioned 16-to-1 ratio, grazed cattle can make use of land which simply cannot support cereal grains. It is a waste of resources to grow grains in order to feed sedentary cattle, but free-range animals are using land that we cannot, without extraordinary amounts of fertilization and irrigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 02:54 PM

I am omnivorous, myself, but were any vegetarians to land on my step they would be fed with an array of goodies from my garden and grove. Carnivores and Omnivores like garden fare, too.

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:00 PM

Not to mention, and since no one has, I will, the 55 million metric tons, give or take a few million, of methane emitted by cattle every year. Please be sure your cow's catalytic converter is working properly.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Ed.
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM

Spaw,

Could you please stop infecting every thread with an 'hilarious' fart joke. Please.

It's getting very old, and somewhat tiresome.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM

"folks who make a decision to NOT follow the mainstream"

Ya... that way they can be an individual... just like all thier friends...

Mmmm... "Caveman Diet" Now THAT I want on a T-shirt!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM

Even though I do like to tease my vegetarian friends with my statement above, my own diet has changed dramatically over the years. It now is far, far heavier in grains, vegetables, and non-red meats than it was, and those meats I do eat are eaten in much smaller quantities. And I prefer game to farm-raised meats, not because I want to kill things but because mankind has so screwed up the natural predator/prey relationship that to my mind it would be unethical NOT to hunt. Actually, I'd like it to be that you weren't allowed to eat any meat you didn't kill yourself, but that's not going to happen.

Consider, though, that what this society calls "vegetarianism" can actually be effective only in a culture with an efficient food distribution system. In the past, Springtime meant fresh green plants to eat and an end to Winter's scurvy-causing lack of vitamins (Arctic peoples dealt with it differently).

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

"Our teeth are made for tearing flesh" - not very efficient with raw flash actually. Raw fish maybe. I've always like the idea we're descended from sea-apes, living in and out of the sea on the beach, sort of cross between mermaids and beachbums.

Animal protein such as worms and insects would be fine too - but raw meat from big animals isn't too easy at all. Chimps have much better sets of teeth than we have, and they can only manage little monkeys.

I always assumed we are designed to eat anything we can get hold of, and most of the things we could get hold of would have been vegetation of one sort or another, because they can't run away.

And anytime there's a forest fire, there'd be cooked meat for a treat, because you could get your teeth round it. So they learned about how to start forest fires. And then some bright spark thought, "Why not do it the other way round - kill the food first and then make make a small fire to make it edible..." And we never looked back.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 04:12 PM

Experiment with your diet, and see what works best for you. Listen to your body, and let it tell you what it "needs". Don't fall for it's squirming and complaining addictions... and be aware of the effects that your lifestyle has on your nutritional needs. Sedintary people need far less protien that do athletes...

...also, curtail the preservatives, and the sugars... They are more dangerous than we know, I fear...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 07:42 PM

I'm trying to give up on fake butters, the ones with hydrogenated fats and loaded with trans-fatty acids, and go back to using butter (judiciously), olive oil, and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM

I eat Vegetarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM

It's interesting to note that, as soon as a society transitions from a foraging lifestyle, eating fruits, easily preparable vegetables, and game, to a sedentary agricultural society, their lifespan and health both plummet precipitously. Archaelogical evidence indicates that it hasn't been until the last fifty years or so that average health in First World countries reached their pre-agricultural levels. This is due both to the consumption of grains, poor in protein and other nutrients for their caloric content, and the domestication of animals, from whom we get our epidemic diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:41 PM

I could say something in reply to Jed, but I'm much too polite to do so. Plus, I'm not a vegetarian.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:44 PM

Look like a lotta bad science being passed for gospel here ... I eat meat. I love it. I eat lotsa veggies, grains and fish too ... pretty low on the fat (I just don;t like it) ... stay away from the fast food ... use real butter (in small quantities) and olive oil. I'm 50 years old and maintain a 152 cholesterol level - 'course I'll probably drop dead next week from an anurism!

Hasn't helped my spelling or my typing, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM

Well, the way I look at it is that I'm being efficient. Instead of wasting my time eating 16 pounds of hay (which I don't like) I eat one pound of cow (which I do like). Or maybe a Bambie or two - little butter, little garlic, yum! And I try to get some of them endangered species once in a while before they disappear completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:44 AM

Great subject for a BS (blue smoke) thread. I get the impression that diet is one of the major categories of misinformation, on the Net and elsewhere. Every “authorative” source seems to contradict every other “authorative” source. Some theories are based on a clinical estimate of human nutritional needs, some on assumptions about early humans in an idealized “natural” state and many are based on what some particular industry has to sell.

I did some searching on the Net to see what might pass for actual independent information and haven't yet found much. I did run across a guy in California named Mark Blackburn—with an MBA! How's that for credentials in nutrition?—who looks as though he's at least tried to get some independent information together. Here's a link to his site where he also has references and links. He makes the case that homo sapiens are neither carnivores nor omnivores but are actually frugivores and cites studies documenting the health benefits of a diet of fruits and vegetables. He also piloted his boat from Toronto to Miami, Florida. His site is an interesting one to browse.

I also came across a page calling itself The Encyclopedia of Fruitarianism and Rational Living at the Fruitarian Universal Network site. I haven't spent much time there but they may have links to other information as well.

I still have my copy of John Robins' book and while I skipped over the first half of his book, dealing with the poor treatment of animals by agra-business, the chapters on the health damage caused by eating animal products were well researched and compelling. I haven't radically changed my diet as a result but it made me think I probably should have.

Maybe I'll have to look into this frugivore thing.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:11 AM

The frugivore thing does make sense. Consider what primates eat: fruit, mainly. Oh, and bugs.

As for "bad science" well, it is annoying that so-called scientists and experts cannot even agree on what is a healthy diet...but some things we know.

We know preservatives and processed sources of saturated fats are bad for humans. We know processed sugars are VERY bad for humans, exacerbating some of our worst health problems including tooth decay, alcoholism and diabetes. We know the body DOES digest food more efficiently when fewer foods ar eaten at once, particularly if one avoids combining proteina nd starch together at one meal, and the best aporoach to this is the "mono-diet" or one food at a time...The typical "English" Sunday dinner or Thanksgiving spread wreaks havoc because of the bad combining...

We know that most people are far less active today than they were in the first half of the last century. We know we die in greater numbers from diseases directly related to diet than at any other time in our history. We know that eating too much of anything is not a good thing. We know that eating a food as close as possible to its "live" or natural state is far more healthy than eating food which has been freeze-dried, frozen, canned, smoked, pickled, dried or otherwise preserved.

I highly recommend a book called "Native Nutrition." It details the history of the diets of a number of indigenous populations throughout the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:23 AM

Jed - are you sure you eat vegetarians? Ideally that should be true, but most of our farm animals don't get a choice what they eat and the cheaper commercial animal feeds are most definitely not exclusively plant based. Enforced cannibalism is often nearer the truth. This has lead to the proliferation of diseases such as CJD in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:26 AM

This thread seems a lot more balanced and informative than the one that spawned it.
I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit along with small amounts of meat particularly oily fish (smoked Mackerel aaaaaaagh). I to avoid the trans fatty acids found in Hydrogenated vegetable oils.
Here's a few diet health tips I've come across over the years.

Oily Fish- Essential Fatty acids (good for lowering cholesterol). Tined fish such as pilchards, rich in calcium.

Tomatoes- Cooked with oil, the richest source of Lycopene (helps protect against arteriosclerosis)

Avoiding osteoporosis- This is particularly important for women. Some foods Cheese and meat being the worst create acidic digestion products, as these enter the blood system for transport they cause the body to compensate to avoid the bloods pH dropping. If the amount is small the citrate buffer system in the blood sufficient to cope, but with large amounts the body responds by making Amines from protein in the Liver and mobilising Phosphate from the bones(this also mobilises Calcium from the bones).
Fortunately green vegetables and fruit have the opposite effect, so eat Cheese and meat with plenty of veg(Spring Cabbage aaaaaagh).

Garlic- I think every one knows about this, and the other members of the Onion family

Cinnamon- This is reputed to help prevent late onset diabetes, the health effect coming from 1/4 teaspoon a day.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:27 AM

Consider what primates eat: fruit, mainly. Oh, and bugs.

But chimpanzees like to hunt down Red Colubus monkey to eat - in fact it appears about one in five of these is killed each year by chimps. (See here) Mind, I don't think the other Great Apes go in for this, so maybe our people didn't either, to start with. Made up for it later though.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:29 AM

Mmmmmmmmm...bugs with tomatoes, garlic, and cinnamon!          8-)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:47 AM

Every year I try and eat some Wild food. The Council kindly plants lots of edible Cherries around here and there delicious. Most years I manage to find some Field Mushrooms and there is always Shaggy Ink cap.
Lime leaves are nice this time of year.
I once had the idea of starting a Snail ranch, producing the molluscs for local Restaurants, you could feed them on waste veg and they don't take up much space. I decided in the end against it, the risk of stampede was just to great.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:34 AM

"My snails have not yet arrived"

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:38 AM

Has Les Barker written one about us vegetarians?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Grab
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM

Peg, that's not entirely correct. There are some grains that don't have the vitamins/minerals in a form that humans can digest. You need two different types of grain which react together - you then get more nutrients from the two together than you would get from either individually.

Sooz, you *do* need meat, or rather you need the nutrients you get from it. If you want to do without meat, you need a very specialised diet to provide these nutrients (see paragraph above). Some countries have evolved these diets over centuries ("evolving" because people who ate other things tended not to live as long), so they can live without meat. But just removing meat from an existing diet is a guarantee of malnutrition-related problems - rickets was endemic during the Industrial Revolution, when poor people couldn't afford meat and didn't know what foods they needed to eat to stay healthy. Granted, we do now know how to do this though.

As for efficiency of land use, sure, grain-fed cows are a very inefficient use of land. But cows browsing permanent pasture are doing so in areas where the land couldn't easily be used for grains/vegetables. And sheep farming in hilly areas, or cow/sheep farming in scrubland areas such as commonly found in the US and Australia, are using areas which would not otherwise provide any food for humans. Also consider fishing - it's obviously not possible to sow seeds in the sea!

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:49 AM

Grab-Eggs and milk provide most of the nutrients you normally get from milk. A well-rounded vegetarian diet can be more healthy as a fully omnivorous diet, if only because the raw protein comes with less saturated fats.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:23 AM

risky bidniz for high output atheletes (like distance runners).

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: fiddler
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:36 AM

Unfortuantely teh vegan message board has died - someone hacked in to it!

The truth is we are built as omnivores - yes - proven form tooth structure
Most eat too much meat for their own good - proven but research.
Meat is costly to produce as stated above! (the theory that the worlds food problems could be soved if we all went veggie or vegan is open to much debate)
It doen't hurt anyone to be veggie
It does hurt animals to eb carni or omni
We would not have some of the rare breeds whcih are nice to look at if we didn't eat meat in the past.
Production of these rare breeds was primitive GM research.
I don't like GM either.

Live and let live - I don't eat meat - I can't eat nuts and many oils so I have to compromise in some areas.

I cook meat for non veggies if I have to (in their houses when they don't know what to do with it).
I let my kids make their own decision - they both eat meat
I'd rather they didn't but

Live and let live!

Speaking of Athletes I ahve run 3 marathons and countless half marathons and on top of that I play the fiddle!

GRIN

Sorry couldn't resist my bigoted live and let live two penneth!!!

Grinagain

A

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM

All right then, go tell the Inuit they don't need meat. I dare ya. Kinda hard to grow many grains, fruits and vegetables on the tundra. Plus they need the fat because living in that cold of a climate requires extra calories to stay warm.

Anyhow..... everyone is different. I think our eating habits have a lot to do with geography - what's available where we live, and what was available to our ancestors.

I tried going veggie once. I was hungry all the time and I gained 20 pounds.

I, personally, DO need meat, but I also recognize that others' mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: mooman
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:04 AM

I'm now reaching about 23 years as a vegetarian...

It seems to at least suit my constitution anyway and several doctors advised me to go light on the meat (digestive problems in the past). In the end I gave it up completely. I'm almost teetotal too these days! (Small lapse onto the vile black stuff in Portaferry...just for medicinal reasons of course!)

Egad! Am I a folkie at all?!!!

mooman (rather big and muscular 'Catter!)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM

Grad - I don't need meat! A varied balanced diet of everything but meat (and animal bi-products) has kept me very healthy for thirty years now. My immune system is very strong and its at least eight years since I needed to take any time off work due to illness.
I'm getting a bit fed up of the references to teeth - human teeth aren't adapted to do anything in particular. In fact they are a bog standard set of unspecialised gnashers. Tiny canines of no use for tearing anything tougher than the wrapper off a Mars bar and miniscule molars useless for grinding grass. Fortunately most of the plant material we all eat raw does not have silica in its cell walls like grass does so we can cope with it perfectly well and do not need the huge continuously growing molars of grazing animals.
Yes Mooman - you are a folkie and so am I.Unfortunately I'm also a Biology teacher who can't resist the odd lecture spasm!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Peg
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM

"Peg, that's not entirely correct. There are some grains that don't have the vitamins/minerals in a form that humans can digest. You need two different types of grain which react together - you then get more nutrients from the two together than you would get from either individually."

What are you talking about exactly? It sounds like what you are referring to is the fact that to make a "complete protein" one must combine grains with legumes (i.e. rice and beans, corn and beans etc.); this is something that is a cornerstone of vegetarian eating, the idea that to achieve high-quality levels of protein one must combine food carefully; but that is not what I was talking about.

The "vitamins/minerals" in grains are not connected to their digestibility...nor do different types of grains "react together" (what does this mean exactly?)

I was speaking of the enzymes produced in the stomach for the digestion of starch (grains) or protein (flesh); when they are eaten together these enzymes work at cross purposes and lead to poor absorption of nutrients and incomplete digestion (and putrefaction) of these foods, and THAT is the problem of digestibility I was referring to.

When you are talking about vitamins and minerals the issue is absorption; not digestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:00 PM

Sooz-When you say "animal by-products" are you referring to dairy and eggs, i.e., are you a vegan?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: MMario
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM

I thought vegans eschewed all animal products?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:09 PM

The enzymes produced in the stomach digest protein only in the very acid conditions of the stomach. Carbohydrate digesting enzymes are produced by the salivary glands and mix with food in the mouth and by the pancreas from where they mix with food in the duodenum. They work best in neutral conditions. There are also a couple of protein digesting enzymes made in the pancreas. Poor absorption of nutrients is usually due to food moving too quickly along the guts. This is easily controlled by a high fibre intake coming entirely from plant cell walls. No animal product has fibre and the high levels of fat associated with most meats simply grease the progress along the gut.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:13 PM

It took me so long to type my last post that you guys got in while I was chewing the cud.
I'm not a vegan. I use moderate amounts of hopefully humanely produced eggs and dairy products but I don't wear leather shoes. Those cows did not die of old age!
By animal bi-products I mean the gelatine derived from bones, hooves etc that holds a lot of confectionary items together, cheese made from bovine rennet etc

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST,jennifer
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM

If there's one thing that adult humans really are NOT designed to consume, it's dairy products!
I believe if one wishes to be vegetarian because you think modern farming is cruel you would have more effect by purposely buying high welfare local products and encouraging those who are making steps in the right direction.
Also, permaculture school of thought says city dwellers should be meat eaters because it's cheaper to transport for the same nutritional effect. And surely it takes less fuel to grill a steak than to simmer a bean stew? And the methane produced by the human after eating the beans would be less than that after eating the steak?
In the UK large tracts of the landscape we value have been produced by hundreds of years of stock rearing - to be strictly vegan you shouldn't look, or something.
Jennifer
And I have eaten meat I reared and killed, by the way, felt very good about that. Seemed right.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:45 PM

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have never had a problem digesting dairy products, except in the odd case of over-consumption. I very rarely have digestive problems at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM

I find that dairy is much easier on my digestion than beans, in general. Lactose-tolerance is fairly prevalent in European populations, and I believe northern African populations, but most other ethnicities have trouble. I think it derives from rates of dairy consumption in ancestral populations.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: fiddler
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:02 PM

Milk I am told lines the gut with a mucus type coating and therefore reduces digestive capeability.

Fits with the old trick of drinking a pint of milk to give staying power when you go out drinking non veggie beer!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: GUEST,kimmers
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:34 PM

I don't there is any subject more rife with opinion and controversy than nutrition, and what is "right" may be different for different people.

Whoever commented about the Inuit... well, yeah, how would they survive without meat? But we who have access to greater variety, and are used to it, would be well advised to seek it out. And we all need to eat less CRAP! Ban the Twinkies and the chips!

I personally don't like meat very much. Once in a great while, I crave it... and when I do, it is invariably something very bad for me like bacon or a nice greasy pork chop. Yum. But most of the time, I'd rather have vegetables and whole grains. And yes, dairy products... while some people have trouble digesting them, many of us love the stuff and do well with it. I think it really depends on your ancestry. Mine were Irish, so I think I should live off a diet of potatoes, cabbage, bacon, cheese, and stout... just kidding!

I have low cholesterol, and have mostly maintained an ideal weight; except for recently when I've had to take some meds for my asthma that have ramped up my appetite. That, and too much of the aforementioned stout. Beer has too many damned calories!!!

I respect my vegetarian friends and I do not make fun of their eating choices; when with them, I just eat like they do. I find them far easier to cope with than my office staff, half of whom are on the Atkins diet and very cranky right now. The funny thing is, they were all on something like it 2-3 years ago as well, and were just as cranky, and they all gained all of their weight back.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:23 PM

fiddler-The gut is already lined with a mucus-like coating, and lactose is already broken down by the time it gets to the small intestine, which is where nutrient absorption begins.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: mg
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:44 PM

if you were on an Atkins-like diet 2 or 3 years ago, and did well on it, then your body is telling you you should stay on a version of it. You can't go on an off it..of course you will gain your weight back. I think everyone needs to read Body Typing..or some such name..I'll have to dig out the book. Basically, it says there are 3 (probably with endless permutations) types of metabolism...those who do well on vegetarian/grain based diets, those who have a mixed diet need, and those, and I am one, who have high needs for animal protein and FATS. DAIRY FATS. We do just very well thank you on them. He gives you a test you take and you can tell what you are. You are almost guaranteed to have health problems if you don't eat right for your type..this is not the blood type diet..a dentist came up with this originally, but it really makes sense. And of course it depends on your ethnic heritage..if you are of a single heritage and your ancestors were thriving, eat what they ate (and work like a horse)...

Read Dr. Mary Enig..Nourishing traditions...she gets into saturated fats...essential for some people..generally of Northern ancestry...and fish oils are very essential for some people.

In general, there is consensus that there is no need ..and great harm..in eating artifically produced fats..margarines etc...don't mix that up with untouched saturated fats, which some bodies do fine on. Also refined sugars, and flours..don't forget the flours.

Read Dr. Schwarzbein on diabetes, prevention and reversal....

Dr. Mercola has a web site and he is really into this body typing...if you do well on a vegetarian diet, by all means eat it. Don't insist that others do.   A good percentage of adults do just fine on dairy foods..and if they don't get enough fats and proteins will, mark my words, get diabetes. And really make sure you are making sense when you say how many cows can be supported by one acre of land. Where is the land? Arizona or my part of Washington, which could support all sorts of cows or goats or whatever.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Beccy
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM

Okay, I've been flip, but I'll be serious for a bit. I was a vegetarian for 7 years (ending about 10 years ago.) I had some serious energy problems. I was lethargic and got every little virus that came around. I was seriously anemic. I was VERY careful about getting all the right nutrients and combinations of proteins, so I knew I was getting good nutrition. I never thought about meat, so it wasn't that I was craving it. One day I decided that a piece of fried chicken looked good, and I'm still not sure what possessed me to try it, but I did. I felt so good that day. A few weeks later, I was at a Polish Festival and saw some Kielbasa on a spit. I had already taken the great chicken leap, so I went ahead and tried a Kielbasa with onions and peppers. I felt great. I decided to reintroduce small amounts of meat.

Two months later, my anemia was gone. I was no longer lethargic. I wasn't getting all the little bugs circulating. I'm not saying it's right for EVERYONE to eat meat. Some people feel much better without it. My point is that my body needs meat and I am aware of that. I feel better health-wise when I eat it. You may not- to each his own. I don't like it, though, when people moralize to each other over their dietary choices.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetarianism the truth
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:34 AM

The truth about vegetarianism is that it's great for some, and not so great for others. I love veggies and eat some every day. I don't always eat meat every day. My health is excellent and I'm in great shape. I found the thing that works for ME, which is what you all have to do.

I do not believe that there is One Absolute Way of Eating that is Right For All People.