BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp

Subject: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 03 - 12:16 PM

US plans death camp
May 26, 2003

THE US has floated plans to turn Guantanamo Bay into a death camp, with its own death row and execution chamber.

Prisoners would be tried, convicted and executed without leaving its boundaries, without a jury and without right of appeal, The Mail on Sunday newspaper reported yesterday.

The plans were revealed by Major-General Geoffrey Miller, who is in charge of 680 suspects from 43 countries, including two Australians.
The suspects have been held at Camp Delta on Cuba without charge for 18 months.

General Miller said building a death row was one plan. Another was to have a permanent jail, with possibly an execution chamber.

Story

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 03 - 02:50 PM

This is a test case. Americans watched the US military invade a sovereign nation (Afghanistan) for no verifiable reason. We then watched Moslems taken from that country and tortured in Cuba. Now we will watch them be exterminated. Or will we? We accepted the invasion of one sovereign nation, so we were given another invasion. Allow this death camp, and it is just the first step to another series of Auschwitzs and Treblinkas. These 'terrorists' are going to be killed without recourse to a justice system, and Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act defines YOU as a terrorist, subject to maritime and military (not American) law:

`(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
`(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
`(B) appear to be intended--
`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 03:21 PM

Taken right out of the pages of yer home state, GUEST! Okay, with a few minor tweeks...

Speakin' of "death camps", come back in 20 years and I think the average life expectancy in year in America will have significantly dropped. Crappy food, longer hours, more stress, increased debt and more pollutants oughtta do the job just fine. Then Boss Hog won't have to worry about the Social Security as much. Boy, he hates that stuff...

But back to Guantanamo. This really ain't new. This has been the plan since the beginning. Throw in a few provisions of the Homeland Security Act and an over zealous Justice Department and American citizens could take their last breath down there, too...

Normal for these guys. Boy, the quicker they can pull the plug on democracy, the better they'll feel, and with Budweiser and NASCAR occupying so many folks minds they might just pull it off without amny folks knowin' it happened...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: X
Date: 27 May 03 - 03:28 PM

Death Camps have been in the US for years. They're called Indian Reservations.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: DougR
Date: 27 May 03 - 04:41 PM

Banjoest: Balderdash! You obviously have never been on the reservations in Arizona. They are not death camps, and many of them that now have gambling on them, are doing quite well, thank you.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Kim C
Date: 27 May 03 - 05:49 PM

Some of the reservations do very well; unfortunately, some others of them don't. I don't know if it's true any more that the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota is the poorest place in the US - it used to be so. One of the problems is that Native Americans have the highest per capita rate of alcoholism in the country. Maybe someone who is better informed about Native American affairs can expound.

Guantanamo is a prison camp. It ain't the French Riviera.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 03 - 06:43 PM

If you allow the formal execution of any prisoner at Guantanamo, you are as guilty as the people who backed Hitler. That's why I posted the story. Sure there are lots of other instances of death and oppression in history, but this is a made-from-scratch, Jew-killing-type death camp like Hitler established. The people in charge of this plan want no fuzzy areas here...no vague historical fingerpointing. If you are onboard this plan, you are a stone-cold murdering Nazi. You are being dragged down by the organized criminals running the world. Your self-image is one of their biggest obstacles. You MUST be dehumanized in order for them to succeed. And if you Jews remain silent about Moslems being exterminated the way your grandaddies were, and if you Christians condone 'our President' doing this for some screwed up religious reason, you will not be able to defend against future actions of this type when they are directed against you. You will lose all credibility, even with yourself. The goat herders in Guantanamo are just luckless nobodies in the eyes of those holding them captive...YOU are the true target of these executions.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 27 May 03 - 07:18 PM

To Kim C: You wrote "One of the problems is that Native Americans have the highest per capita rate of alcoholism in the country."

Correct, and for a really good explanation of that, and any alcoholism, in fact, read a book called "Under the Influence," which clearly outlines why some people become alcoholics and some don't. Alcoholics have a specific enzyme problem which reacts with alcohol --some whites and blacks have it, some don't; all native North Americans have this problem.

Sorry for the thread creep. It is difficult to comment on something as cold-blooded and hypocritical as this born-again President actually initiating or condoning a death camp. I find it interesting that the Geneva Conventions apply to everyone but this administration; UN rules and procedures apply to everyone but this administration.

I've said it before: in about a decade we may well look back and say, "why didn't we do something?"

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 May 03 - 07:57 PM

I am unknowing of chemical inbalances but I have this experience with the Indians in Central New York. And this is by no means true of all the Indians in central New York. Just the Oneidas and the Onondagas.
    In my work as a designer of special equipment for people with disabilities I have worked with a family who were Oneidas living on the Onodaga Reservation. This family could come off the res and get services but I couldn't go on the res to take services to them. The Onondagas refused nearly all federal aid beyond food stamps and medicaid. But this aid was only for Onondagas living on the res.      
   The Oneida family was Oneida by virtue of a matriarchal thread that stretched back 12 generations. The children were Oneida even tho' their fathers were Onondaga as is the Indian tradition.

(BTW, I asked the Mother which she prefered to be adressed as on the intake forms. she said American Indian, she futher stated we are all Native Americans.)

    Had the mother moved to the Oneida reservation she would have been a clan mother and benefited from the money generated by the casino in Verona. But she stayed on the Onondaga res because that was where she was born.

    Such is the power of tradition.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 27 May 03 - 09:20 PM

It's my understanding that one of the reasons there are so many alcohol-related problems on Indian reservations, aside from the enzyme thing mentioned above, is that there is also a very high rate of fetal alcohol syndrome, which was first identified in the 1970's, I think. People withis problem often seem pretty normal, if not too brilliant, but in fact have some major deficits in areas like judgement and understanding. On standard IQ tests they tend to come out at "low normal", but that has nothing to do with the way they actually function in the world. Check out Michael Dorris' book "The Broken Cord," about his adopted son, who had fetal alcohol syndrome. It was also done as a TV movie.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 03 - 09:48 PM

There's something a bit fishy about this story, Dreaded Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:06 PM

Ebbie, how can you possibly doubt that story??? The website has all kinds of fascinating stuff, like THIS ONE about the Peruvian lady auctioning off her virginity, and THIS ONE about the Chinese physician who prescribes visits to her own whore house. As always, Dreadful GUEST has a knack for bringing us the profoundest stuff!!!

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:23 PM

The tribunal lawyers have just been appointed. Human rights groups are decrying the lack of legal protections in the tribunals. Everything is calculated to come up 'guilty', and these are capital cases. Execution chambers will be required. This is a death camp.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,Indians and booze
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:00 AM

My sister is in love with a Mohawk, a Vietnam Veteran, ex Marine, named Theresa. She spent Christmas with us. I think she had a glass of wine with Christmas dinner, but she certainly didn't guzzle the liquor cabinet.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:39 AM

pdc, would you please provide a cite for such sweeping generalisations? The one about the enzyme?

Banjoest, I hope we hear from you, again, on this.

Last I knew, Pine Ridge and the Rosebud, in South Dakota, were the poorest.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:36 AM

From Katlaughing: pdc, would you please provide a cite for such sweeping generalisations? The one about the enzyme?

Sure -- the book is called "Under the Influence: a Guide to the Myths and Realities of Alcoholism," by Dr. James R. Milam and Katherine Ketcham. Originally published in 1981; mine is a 1983 Bantam edition that I purchased about six years ago. It is still in print, and still sells well.

The prime author, Milam, is a clinical psychologist in the US, in the field of addictions for over 30 years. He holds that "addiction is a neuropsychological disorder, not a symptom of secondary consequence of psychosocial risk factors."

The American Medical Society on Alcoholism and the Research Society on Alcoholism gave it a very high approval rating, as did the National Association of Alcoholism Counselors. I'm quoting all this just to indicate that the book does not comprise off-the-wall type of thinking. There is alcoholism in my family (as in everyone's), and this book has been very helpful.

There is a website that I haven't visited:
http://aaw.com

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:38 AM

I'm sorry that I went from thread creep, to thread drift, to thread completely lost at sea.

I would like to learn more about this proposed death camp at Guantanamo - does anyone have further information?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 28 May 03 - 02:05 AM

Kat, I don't know of any specific site for the enzyme, which is part of the function processing alcohol (ethanol) into simple sugars. Its lack slows the breakdown of alcohol significantly allowing the % and thus, strength of affect to increase significantly. Many Oriental races have the same problem.

I have my doubts about the physical creation of a visible "death camp." There are enough "agencies" chemicals and so forth that, after trial "in absentia," all criminals are "reachable" in any environment

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 03 - 02:21 AM

pdc, look for it in the legitimate media. I didn't find it. Everything I found led me right back to the one site.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:09 AM

While there is a lot about General Miller, there appears to be nothing on-line on this topic that doesn't link back to that Australian "quote," (which is not in quotation marks in the original) including CNN and the BBC.

The chain of "logic," whoever invented the story, seems to be (1) MG Geoffrey Miller commands the Guantanamo Base (2) the "POW" camp is located at Guantanamo (3) the legal mechanism is in place for trials to begin for inmates accused of war crimes (4) some of these crimes, under US law, carry the death sentence (5) therefore Miller must be planning to conduct executions.

Seems more than a little far-fetched.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:37 AM

Just do a search for 'Guantanamo tribunal'. Something like that. I did yesterday...lots of stories about the appointment of lawyers for the tribunal trials. Capital offenses. Where there's a death sentence, there's a death house. It's here, folks. An American Auschwitz.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 28 May 03 - 11:12 AM

Article on what it's like in Guantanamo from an Irish paper: http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/05/18/story645372490.asp

A quick google comes up with an Australian paper called the Sunday Mail, rather than the rather right-wing but respectable British paper called The Mail On Sunday, as the source for the original story quoted above, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:13 PM

"Where there's a death sentence, there's a death house. It's here, folks. An American Auschwitz." Ah, Dreaded Guest,now you can be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: DougR
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:07 PM

GUEST: they're going to get LAWYERS? I wonder what they would have received had they been imprisoned in Iraq?

Methinks you enjoy stirring the pot.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:12 PM

Military lifers. Their jobs will be to lose the cases, if they want promotion.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 May 03 - 02:38 PM

And of course all the American lawyers speak fluent Afghani.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Gareth
Date: 28 May 03 - 04:48 PM

Mind you I've yet to meet a lawyer who can speak coherent English, let alone Afghan !!

With appologies to 'Catters concerned.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 08:10 PM

http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05/24/wcamp24.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/05/24/ixnewstop.html

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 May 03 - 11:01 PM

So?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: DougR
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:37 AM

Well, Art, I really think you summed it up. "So?"

After all, it IS a prison. The death penalty is still the ultimate punishment for crimes against the state, and if a death sentence is appropriate for a convicted terrorist, facilities must be available to carry out the sentence. To relate to it as a "Death Camp" denigrates the termonilogy. Death Camps were run by the Nazis in WWII. Not the USofA in the 21st Century. Guest knows that, he/she just likes to stir the pot.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 03 - 10:46 AM

The men at Guantanamo are 'enemy combatants'. No citizenship for the most part. Patriot Act 2 has provisions to strip citizenship from Americans for 'terrorism', which section 802 of the first Patriot Act already defined as 'breaking a law'. States and cities around the nation now are pushing to make protesting = terrorism. So, numbnuts, before long, because you cowards rationalize killing 'them' for terrorism, if you talk back to anyone connected to the new Gestapo created by the Homeland Security Act (federalized all police), you will be protesting, which means you will lose your citizenship and then be tried as an enemy combatant. What happens to the men in Guantanamo will happen to you. And you know it. So, is it cowardice that makes you cringe? Or is it just a defense mechanism? This really is becoming a puzzler. I'm starting to think most of you aren't capable of facing your own deaths, which is what the new Amerika is about...do you have the guts to face the fact that organized crime has taken over the country and is setting up the Fourth Reich, or are you going to hide in a corner hoping for a few more minutes of fearful breath?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 03 - 11:45 AM

So, Dreaded Guest, how do you plan to die? With your history, you'll die a more painful, fearful one than I. MWWWWWWAAAHAAAAAA

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: X
Date: 29 May 03 - 11:57 AM

Hi ya DougR.

I've mostly agreed with what you've said in the past but....

Just so you know I'm from one of these Res. and it's only been recently that some of the People have started gaming. Most of the Res. in the Good Old USA are nothing but a whole lot of nothing, Uncle Sam's little thrid world countrys right here in the US. I take it you never been to Pine Ridge or way back in the Navaho in the homes with dirt floors, no running water, where the People still cook on wood stoves and shit in a hole dug in the ground. You make it sound like the Res. are Gods little green acre but I assure you, they are not. US Census have showen that the highest death rate, as a people and the LOWEST INCOME FOR AMERICANS are on the American Res. So much for your big bucks from gaming.

DougR,

You may have driven past a Res; you may have even visted one a time or two. But no matter, you're on the outside looking in with eyes that let you see what you need to see. I was born and rased Res. I live it.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 May 03 - 11:57 AM

Umm, has anyone actually *read* the link I posted?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:06 PM

Yes, JTT...if true, its an unfortunate situation.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: DougR
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:48 PM

I stand corrected, The Banjoist. I know that some of the reservations are pretty lousy. Some of them here in Arizona, however, have done quite well off gambling revenue. How this has benefited those who live on those reservations, however, I am not sure.

I just thought the poster of the original message re the reservations was a bit trite in reply to a question that had nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: X
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:59 PM

My statement was to point out that if the USA aloud the type of conditions to exist on the American Res., which in fact are nothing more than POW camps of a fallin people, no telling what the US would do to "POW's" that are hidden from the eyes of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Bobert
Date: 30 May 03 - 09:27 PM

Well, this is indeed a sober saubject. One one side we have a a 250 year tradition in at least an attempt toward freedom and liberty for the down troden, the hungry, sick and poor but on the other a quite different scenioro of greed, power and total lack of humanism.

Well, as fir the Resevations, from what I have seen, read and been told by those who live in them, many are nothing more than concentration camps. Rather than have guards do the dirty work, the conditions of poverty do it.

Now, as fir the provisons of the Homeland Security Act, if Bush and his folks wanted to they could round up a million folks overnight to be shipped off. Sound familira? It should...

Like I've said many times before, I don't think America will survive this admoinistration intact. They have rocked the only segment of society that scared them, redneck America, to sleep with flags, Budweiser, counrty music and NASCAR and with that segment safely in the corral, who are they worried about? No one. And it is increasaingly apparent as they continue to dismantle 250 years of history.

As fir you folks on the other side, hope you enjoy the ride 'cause your names are on the list, too. Just a little further down. Better order your "compliance kits" which tell you which way to put the toilet paper on the roller 'cause they'll be 'round to check on you in due time...

Think this is crazy?

You're right, it is...

It's also true.

Look around...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: DougR
Date: 31 May 03 - 11:50 AM

Yep, Bobert, the sky is no doubt falling.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:24 AM

At the end of the war, the mean survival time of new arrivals in German concentration camps fell below the one month mark. In the extermination camps, more than 50 % of all newcomers were dead within 24 hours.

I don't want to claim that Guantanamo Bay or reservations are fine places without any violations of humna rights, but you can bet that inmates in German concentration camps would have loved to switch any day.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:03 PM

Anyone been sentenced and put to death yet? - Nope

Any sign of the start of the million person round up? - Nope

Anyone had their toilet rolls checked recently? - Nope

Think this is crazy?

You're right, it is...

It's also true.

Look around...

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:44 PM

So, Teribus, the sky is NOT falling?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Plans Death Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 02:02 AM

Not the last time I looked Doug