Historical basis for Anachie Gordon

Subject: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Puffenkinty
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 04:48 PM

Many traditional ballads are loosely based
on actual historical events. Does anybody
know if there is some real event behind the ballad "Anachie Gordon"?

Thanks

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 06:00 PM

"Annachie Gordon"- "Lord Saltoun and Auchanachie," Child 239. There have been a number of Lords Saltoun, but whether the story has any historical roots....
Malcolm Douglas, in one of the threads on this, stated that there were localities named Annachie, and Auchanachie. Put Annachie in the Lyrics and Knowledge Search, and the threads come up. No information, however.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 06:06 PM

Child does not mention a specific incident, but gives the location as "Philorth is the seat of the Frasers of Saltoun, near Fraserburgh, in the extreme northeast corner of Aberdeenshire."

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,where can i obtin the song annachie gordon i
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:34 AM

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 06:02 PM

Many of the classic ballads to which (especially, 19th century) editors or scholars were keen -often at the expense of a good deal of imagination-stretching- to ascribe historical bases show no real sign at all of being based on real, identifiable events (some, indeed, are demonstrably older than the events to which they are popularly supposed to refer) so the subject should be treated with caution, and you shouldn't believe what you're told too readily. I don't think anyone has ever tried to pin this one down to a real event, which suggests that there isn't one. If there had been, you can be sure that extravagant theories would have been built upon it long before now.

Of course, they may have been, and I might just have forgotten, but on the whole I think not.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:38 PM

Guest, where ..., try the Forum and Lyrics search in the top left hand corner. You will find this at the top of the list.

As to stories related to old ballads: What are we to think if even someone like Norman Kennedy associated the 'Gypsy Laddie' with the Earl of Cassilis and his wife? I thought that theory had been knocked thoroughly on the head, for precisely the reason given above by Guest!

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,I don't understand the lyrics
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:06 PM

Hi, this may be a stupide question, but what do the following lines mean in Anachie Gordon?

"and before I marry Sulton, it's gold to my head,
With gold to my head, and gowns fringed to the knee"

I'd appreciate any help people could give. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 06 - 11:15 PM

You have one word wrong, and that has thrown the meaning out of kilter...here's the lyric:

"With Annachie Gordon, I'd beg for my bread
Before that I'd marry Saltoun with gold to my head
With gold to my head and gowns fringed to the knee
O I'll die if I don't get my love, Annachie
And you who are my parents to the church you may me bring
But unto Lord Saltoun, I'll never bear a son
O a son or a daughter, I'll never bow my knee
I'll die if I don't get my love, Annachie"

She is simply describing how she would be decked out in her marriage to the rich Lord Saltoun, with gold ornaments on her head and a gown fringed to the knee, and saying, "I don't want any of that finery. I want only to marry Annachie, and I will die rather than marry Lord Saltoun and bear him an heir."

So, just remove the word "it's" and replace it with the word "with", and the meaning is clear.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: g_r_road
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:49 AM

I very much enjoyed Loreena McKennitt's 8 minute rendition on her Parallel Dreams CD.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 04:54 PM

this thread has made for a very interesting read, this song has been a favourite of mine since childhood. nice to know the background on it. thanks all!! :o)

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,guest Scotus (minus cookie)
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:41 PM

Worth mentioning that just about everyone's rendition of the said ballad on recent recordings can be traced back to Nic Jones.

Jack

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 11:26 PM

Yes, it's worth mentioning. I've mentioned it in every other thread on the song here, I think; except for this little, forgotten one containing no useful information apart from links to other discussions. Actually, I'd go further: every rather than just about every modern rendition is derived from Nic Jones' adaptation of the song as printed by Christie.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:35 AM

You may be interested in the copy in the Bodleian collection, called Hannah Le Gordon. Looks like the printer had problems with Annachie as well!

It starts "Hannah Le Gordon he is bonny and braw "

(You may have to scroll the image right to see it)

Hannah Le Gordon

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 05:53 AM

every rather than just about every modern rendition is derived from Nic Jones

Indeed yes.

And every rendition that sets it in 'Harking' (wherever that is) instead of 'Buchan' copied it from Mary Black's mishearing of Nic Jones' recording on Noah's Ark Trap and which Loreena McKennit copied.

However the text of Child #239 Lord Saltoun & Auchanachie begins:

Auchanachie Gordon is bonny and braw.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 06:16 AM

the copy in the Bodleian collection, called Hannah Le Gordon

Now that is interesting, in that it shows that the ballad publishers took at least some of their copy from oral sources.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 01:27 PM

Great version by Sinead O'Connor on the Sharon Shannon collection.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 01:44 PM

Not keen on it. I can never work up much interest in the people in the story whoever tells it.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 02:21 PM

Re: broadsides taken from oral sources. This is not uncommon. In one of the versions of Reynardine I have on broadside, the printer has set:

"Her rosy cheeks and ruby lips,
the lass of Firmadie"

Instead of

"Her rosy cheeks and ruby lips,
they lost their former dye"

Clearly, he was transcribing from an oral source.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Ktesibios
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:16 PM

I've known this song since a former housemate who's a harper included it on a CD I engineered for her. It's a lovely tune, but...

At the insistence of her parents Jeannie marries Lord Saltoun and drops dead. Her sailor boyfriend comes home, hears of it and he drops dead. So now it's everybody dead and it's taken us forty-seven verses to get to such an unsatisfying conclusion.

Why can't we, just once, have a traditional ballad in which the primary character has a little bit of sense? Where the girl, at the insistence of her parents, marries the lord, slips a little something into his whiskey and...

Lord Saltoun's guts grew queasy, he broke out in oozing sores
He went deaf and blind, his hair fell out, he puked up guts and gore
He died in convulsions, to his bride's unbridled glee
She collected his insurance and ran off with Anachie

The line "And you that are my parents, you both can kiss my arse" needs to be worked in somewhere, as well.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Valmai Goodyear
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:13 AM

The young man's strange Christian name makes me wonder whether that branch of the Gordons decided to name all their children after systems of govenment. If that were so, there may be lost ballads awaiting discovery by the names of Democracy Godron, Monarchy Gordon, Oligarchy Gordon, Tyranny Gordon and even New Labour Gordon.

Tootle pip,

Valmai

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: quokka
Date: 31 May 08 - 10:12 PM

And why could her maidens do nothing except wringing of their hands, and when told to loosen off her gowns, would presumably have done so if Jeannie hadn't collapsed. Surely a bit of peer support wouldn't have gone astray.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:32 AM

Well I think she was a bit fussy. She should have married the Lord, had a colour telly put on the ceiling of the bedroom and watched Britain's Got talent while Lord Saltoun made love.

Her Dad was right, she would have been better off with him that the Kleenex Kid. He sounds a bit of a drip to me.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Guest, Sheila
Date: 13 Jul 08 - 08:58 PM

Evidence that Anachie was not a drip . . .

Regarding the line about Anachie, "though he may be pretty, where are his lands?" This probably did not mean, as it would today, that he was just a pretty face.

Years ago when I was a linguistics student studying the history of English and even a chance class on the ballad tradition, I discovered that, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, in 15th-century England "pretty" meant clever, admirable, excellent. In
Scotland, "pretty" was a term often applied to soldiers, meaning brave and gallant. The implication that a "pretty fellow" was a fop doesn't apply until the 18th century, if I've read my OED correctly.

By the way, "silly" has an interesting history too . . . You could look it up. :)

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

I have found in my family, a Dutch relative by marriage, Arendina Maria Hendrika ANNOCQUÉE. (of French origin?)

If you look at the surname, you might possibly find Anachie's origins.
There was quite a bit of movement between Scotland, France and Holland in those days.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM

No need to look so far afield. As I've pointed out elsewhere (see Q's link earlier) both 'Annachie' and 'Auchanachie' are Scottish placenames.

Sheila's point is interesting, but 15th century usage is unlikely to tell us a lot about a song almost certainly written in the later 18th century. 'Pretty' was a commonplace in what we now call folksong, and regularly used of men without any implication of effeminacy.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

Of course, the flow could have been in the other direction as well. Maybe she was of Scottish ancestry!

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Just a thought, if people had behaved with common sense, there wouldn't have been a ballad.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Anna Stewart
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:00 AM

Actuallt, whores in 18th century Scotland tradtionally wore their gowns fringed (cut in pieces) from toes to knees to show their legs. Gold to the head was a signature of a bawd.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:58 PM

still its a more interesting story than Lord Randall,but that wouldnt be difficult,what a boring song is Lord Randall .

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:52 PM

"Actually, whores in 18th century Scotland tradtionally wore their gowns fringed (cut in pieces) from toes to knees to show their legs. Gold to the head was a signature of a bawd."

Interesting! Perhaps the implication of what Jeannie is saying to her parents is that she will not sell herself for Lord Saltoun's gold.

Donizetti's opera, Lucia di Lammermoor has a plot quite similar to "Annachie Gordon." Feuding clans. Edgar of Ravenswood and Lucy of Lammermoor meet and fall in love. Edgar, who is broke, tells Lucy he will go to France, recoup his fortunes, then return, make peace with her brother Henry, and ask for her hand in marriage. While Edgar is away, Henry forces Lucy to marry the wealthy Lord Arthur Bucklaw (the Lammermoor family is hard up for funds also). Edgar returns a few moments after the marriage contract has been signed. Thinking that Lucy has betrayed him (unaware that Henry has been intercepting his letters to Lucy), he curses her and storms out. That night, Lucy, driven out of her mind, stabs her new husband Arthur to death, then, with blood on her gown, wanders distracted among the horrified wedding guests, singing up a storm (the Mad Scene is a great opportunity for a good soprano who can act), and topples over, dead. When Edgar hears (from Raymond, a priest or family retainer) what has happened, he stabs himself to death, singing of how he and Lucy will finally be united in Heaven.

Opportunity for lots of beautiful singing in this opera.

You have a stage full of people wearing kilts and singing in Italian. Donizetti got the story for the opera from Sir Walter Scott's novel, The Bride of Lammermoor.

When I hear folkies snort about the dumb plots that operas have, all I need do is point to the plots of most of the ballads.

But still, dumb or not, I sing them. . . .

Don Firth

P. S. Actually, Lord Randal is not that bad, as long as you curtail the list of menu items a bit and don't sing all of the "last will and testament" verses. One or two to give the idea is plenty adequate. Purists may whine, of course.

". . . and what will you give to the pet chicken of your third cousin on your father's side, Lord Randal, my son. . . .?"

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: pavane
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:48 AM

Green and Yellow (or Yella, or Henry, my son), the cockney parody of Randall, is funnier... And it has a punchline.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Felipa
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

for years I was singing of "Lord Dalton"

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:28 AM

There is a quite similar story, the lovers of Teruel.Isabel and Diego come from 2 different wealthy families and fall in love. Diego's family has fallen on hard times and so he agrees with Isabel's father to leave and try to make his fortune, and come back after 5 years. If he manages to regain his wealth the 2 lovers will wed.During those 5 years Isabel's father tried to convince her to marry someone else, but she denied by saying that God willed her to be a virgin till she turns 20.Her father did not press her more because he loved her too much.On the day of the 5 years'close her father married her to Don Pedro, since nothing was heard from Diego.That night, Diego sneaked into the bedroom of Isabel and her husband and gently awoke her. Apparently, Diego had not counted the day in which he petitioned Isabel's father whereas Isabel's family had.He pleaded to her, "Kiss me for I am dying" and she refused, saying "God would not wish me to deceive my husband.For the love of Christ, I beg you to find another, and forget about me. If our love could not please God, then neither should it please me." He begged her one last time, saying that he was dying and wished for a final kiss. But still she refused. Upon hearing this Diego could not bear the separation between himself and his love, and with a sigh he died on the feet of his beloved Isabel. When she realized that he died, she shivered. She woke her husband, telling him that his snoring scared her and she wished to hear a story. And he did, and in return she told him her own story. She told him of Diego and how he lay dead beside the bed.
"Oh, you wretched! Why did you not kiss him?"
"To not deceive my husband." She replied.
"Of course," he groaned. "You are a woman worthy of praise."
They agreed on secretly burying him in the local church because the husband feared that he would be blamed for his death. The next day, during the funeral for Diego Marcilla, Isabel showed up dressed in her wedding dress. She proceeded to walk to the front of the church and place a kiss on the man whom she had refused but in doing so Isabel died, falling prostrate on the body of the man whom she loved.
Today their tombs lie side by side and the figures that represent them seem to want to hold each others' hand, but finally they cannot even touch it, because Isabel was married to another man.

There are a lot similarities, but of course there is no way that the story is the same, because the myth of Anachie Gordon and Jeannie is located in Scotland and the lovers of Teruel are located in Spain. However, we can see that the people of that era create such stories easily, and the trobadours(singers of love songs at 1100-1350) even more easily, because the need to believe in pure love is great at a time when most marriages where aimed to gaining power and wealth.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 03:39 PM

By the way, GUEST,Ktesibios:    "Why can't we, just once, have a traditional ballad in which the primary character has a little bit of sense? Where the girl, at the insistence of her parents, marries the lord, slips a little something into his whiskey and..."

Actually, there are some, but no need for mayhem. One that springs to mind is "Jock o'Hazeldean." Pressured into marrying into a wealthy family when she's in love with another man, on the morning of the wedding, the young lady takes her fate into her own hands, leaving those who have "expectations" of her, standing around with their mouths open.

Way to go, gal!!

Here's Ronnie Browne of The Corries singing it.   CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 03:59 PM

Don,
Except that 'Jock o' Hazeldean' isn't a traditional ballad, or even a ballad. The ballad it is very loosely based on actually has a happy ending, and the lovers and parent all conspire together, admittedly not a very typical ballad, but I don't think it is very old.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 05:10 PM

Not to drift the thread, Steve, but where did "Jock o'Hazeldean" come from?

I've found two notes on it. One, that it is traditional Scottish, Child #293, and another that it is "a traditional Scottish border ballad written by Sir Walter Scott."

I know that Scott diddled with a lot of ballads, but he was usually trying to tidy up a pre-existing ballad. Case in point, "MacPherson's Farewell (or "Rant" or "Lament").

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 07:16 PM

Don- see:
Lyr Req: John of Hazelgreen

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 08:47 PM

Thanks for directing me to that, Noreen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 12:07 AM

I enjoy Anachie Gordon as recorded by Atwater-Donnelly (Aubrey Atwater, Elwood Donnelly) on their CD The Weaver's Bonny. I had not thought of similarities to Lucia di Lammermoor.

The Metropolitan Opera's production of Lucia will be shown at selected movie theaters. It will star Natalie Dessay. I am looking forward to seeing it.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Gutcher
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 11:44 AM

Anent the historical basis for "Achnachie Gordon" {N.B. this spelling
is as heard by me in the singing of this song by my late Gutcher who
learned the ballad in South Africa during the Boer war.}
It has been suggested to me of late years that this is incorrect--
however a note in a late 19th. C. publication mentions that details
of a marriage between a Gordon and a Miss Achnachi are recorded in the parish church records of KNOCKANDO in Bamffshire.

Now if this Miss Achnachi were her fathers heir and he was Achnachi
of Achnachi {Achnachi of that Ilk} by the then law of Scotland her
husband,on the death of her father, would become Gordon of Achnachi
or "Achnachi." The law to this day allows anyone owning a named feu to be known by the name of their lands, hence most farmers are
referred to by the name of their farm, their surname being ommited.


I passed the information, as found, to the School of Scottish Studies
and trust that they may find records to throw some light on the
subject.
Joe.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 04:54 PM

Don,
You've already found what you want by the looks, but just in case, Child 293 is a very light piece, certainly not a typical ballad, and as I said probably no older than 17thc if that(IMHO), hence its place at 293 amongst mostly other uncertain pieces. It is pretty obviously set in Lowland Scotland somewhere south-west of Edinburgh and could be based on a true story.

Scott took one of the verses and wrote a 4 stanza poem of his own set in Northumberland near Hexham on the Errington estate. There is there an old tower called Hazel Dean still standing which he centred it on.
None of the 293 versions have Hazel Dean. They are all Hazelgreen. There is no deception here: Scott never tried to pass it off as trad. Later it was set to music and became very popular in the 19thc.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 11 - 05:22 AM

You can't have a ballad with a happier ending than Lord Bateman. Unless you're the brown girl of course.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,karavan
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 10:48 PM

Thank you so much for your fabulous rewriting of Jeannie's fate! I'm learning the song for a pub (hotel) celtic night and am very tempted to add in your verse, very straight faced of course! I love the song but the temptation to slip in a little mirth may be too much! Thanks for the laughter!!

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Jimbo
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:39 PM

There is a village of Auchinachie about 12 miles from Banff. This is called after the Auchinachie family, who were I believe allied to the Grant family, but I wonder if they may also have been connected to the Gordons as well. I went to school in Macduff and we had a teacher, Miss Auchinachie.
   The name Anachie, I understand is a variant of Auchanachie.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:17 AM

The name doesn't sound right, if it was derived from a place - the usual form would have been "Gordon of Auchanachie". I can't think of any other exception to that order in traditional Scottish sources. It would be like referring to the Duke of Edinburgh as "Edinburgh Duke".

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: Gutcher
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 08:47 AM

From public records:--
Andrew Achnachie of Achnachie {Of That Ilk] in the year 1555 granted a charter of his lands of Achnachie to Thomas Gordon of Bannaketill.

Andrew Achnachie of Achnachie [note he still kept his territorial designation after he had disponned his lands of that name to T.G.] granted a ratification of this charter to James Gordon as heir to his brother Thomas in the year 1569.

It is easy to see that for a time after the change of ownership of these lands folk would refer to the new owners as Achnachie Gordon in order to differenciate them from the Achnachies of Achnachie [they still holding to their territorial designation as shown by the 1569 charter]

A John Gordon of Achnachie appears in the Aberdeen records in 1601.

There are at least six spellings of Achnachie in the various charters, sometimes two or three in the same charter.

The above settles the point regarding the name Achnachie Gordon and in my opinion gives a period for when the ballad was composed ie.late 16th./early 17th C. in the period when folk still remembered the old owners of the lands by adding Gordon to the territorial designation.
This, of course, gives no clue to the identity of Jeannie Gordon but it can safely be taken that she was no tocherless lass as the offer by her father to mend the mairrage wi ten thoosan croon testifies.
My research into her identity is ongoing.

Subject: RE: Historical basis for Anachie Gordon
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 17 - 07:02 PM

These are most likely my relatives . My Great Great Grandpa James Taylor Auchinachi came to the Victorville Ca with my Great Grandma Jean Isabella Auchinachi in the late 18`s .She was born in the Gate house of Huntley Castle . They were Gordons , My dads middle name and many cousins have Gordon in their names as well as Auchinachie . The Auchinachi progenitor put the "ville" on Victorville CA because there was already a Victor in Colorado . He worked as a surveyor and for the Govmt measuring the flow of the Mojave River .