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Origins: Annachie Gordon

DigiTrad:
ANNACHIE GORDON


Related threads:
Historical basis for Anachie Gordon (44)
Nic Jones sings Annachie Gordon (16)
Annachie Gordon - Youtube (14)
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Lyr Req: Anakee Gordon / Annachie Gordon (15)
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Req: recording of Annachie Gordon (from Mary Black (8)
Req: Recording of Annachie Gordon (15)
Need Chords or tunings for Annachie Gordon (5)
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GUEST,findmeasylum@yahoo 17 Jan 05 - 01:52 AM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Jan 05 - 02:14 AM
Georgiansilver 17 Jan 05 - 03:56 AM
padgett 17 Jan 05 - 04:22 AM
pavane 17 Jan 05 - 04:35 AM
GUEST 17 Jan 05 - 10:26 AM
pavane 17 Jan 05 - 10:44 AM
pavane 17 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM
GUEST 17 Jan 05 - 11:03 AM
pavane 17 Jan 05 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,MCP 17 Jan 05 - 01:03 PM
michaelr 17 Jan 05 - 03:19 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 05 - 04:35 PM
Zany Mouse 17 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,padgett 17 Jan 05 - 05:46 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 05 - 07:08 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,guest, findmeasylum 17 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM
The Villan 18 Jan 05 - 01:44 PM
Malcolm Douglas 18 Jan 05 - 03:30 PM
The Villan 18 Jan 05 - 03:40 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 05 - 07:05 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Jan 05 - 07:28 PM
Strollin' Johnny 19 Jan 05 - 11:04 AM
Malcolm Douglas 19 Jan 05 - 09:39 PM
Strollin' Johnny 20 Jan 05 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,peter.fernon1@bigpond 24 Jun 05 - 04:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jun 05 - 08:07 AM
Diva 24 Jun 05 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Auldtimer 24 Jun 05 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Auldtimer 24 Jun 05 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,Henryp 24 Jun 05 - 05:43 PM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Auldtimer 25 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM
Malcolm Douglas 25 Jun 05 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Auldtimer 25 Jun 05 - 02:53 PM
Diva 26 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM
lesblank 26 Jun 05 - 11:32 AM
GUEST 07 Jun 09 - 01:25 AM
GUEST,joe 03 Jan 10 - 04:22 PM
Steve Gardham 03 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Millindale 03 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM
Effsee 03 Jan 10 - 10:51 PM
GUEST,charlie 04 Jan 10 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,Joe. 04 Jan 10 - 08:16 AM
Phil Edwards 04 Jan 10 - 08:37 AM
Susan of DT 04 Jan 10 - 08:44 AM
Ruth Archer 04 Jan 10 - 08:45 AM
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GUEST,Joe. 04 Jan 10 - 10:20 AM
Steve Gardham 04 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM
Effsee 04 Jan 10 - 11:25 PM
The Villan 04 Jan 10 - 11:58 PM
Susan of DT 05 Jan 10 - 06:13 AM
Gutcher 05 Jan 10 - 06:50 AM
Deneb 09 May 10 - 05:48 AM
Gutcher 28 Nov 10 - 12:22 PM
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pavane 29 Nov 10 - 11:42 AM
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Subject: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,findmeasylum@yahoo
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:52 AM

Can anyone tell me if there is any written down account of the Irish story that the tune for Annachie originated with.. or is the song/lyrics all that exist, and nothing other written down concerning this ballad..

Any knowledge is appreciated, ..if such exists tell me where it may be found


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:14 AM

It isn't an Irish song. It's Scottish. The onsite search engine ("Lyrics and Knowledge Search", which you'll find at the top of every page) will reveal more. Just type in annachie, hit the "search" button; and start reading.

It was the English singer Nic Jones who re-discovered, and recorded, the song; I haven't heard anyone sing it who hadn't obviously learned it from him at one or more removes.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:56 AM

Suggest you could PM 'strollin' johnny' as he sings it. He might be able to help you out.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: padgett
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:22 AM

Malcolm, I may be wrong but Steve Turner was the first that I heard sing this song and from memory Mary Black accredits Steve as being her source but for the record and my memory does enyone know better

Nic Jones held in high esteem for many years and would not wish to detract from his research and abilities


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: pavane
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:35 AM

I believe Nic WAS the original source, as Malcom says.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:26 AM

thanks Malcolm... i'm looking in traditional ballad airs and ballads of the north of scotland.. does anyone know any other sources something of this tune or tale might be written down therein ?? Interesting to know it is Scottish, I had read somewhere that the ballad was based on some old Irish tale, though the song - as it has come to us - was Scottish... maybe my memory is faulty or the source was.. or perhaps it is all just one chaotic celtic mess..
Mike do you have an email for strollin' johnny, or is he somewhere on one of these threads ?
Anyone know of how many recordings currently exist.. I am aware of 4.
if there are any that pre-date Jones let me know
thanks


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: pavane
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:44 AM

There is a version in the Bodleian Library, entitled Hannah Le Gordon!
Seems a strange name for a man.


See Hannah Le Gordon


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: pavane
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM

By the way, you have to scroll to the right of the page for this song.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 11:03 AM

thanks for the link, that is MOST interesting to read


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: pavane
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 12:27 PM

Pretty obviously a late, corrupt, version though. (Sorry, I mean it has been through the 'folk' process of mis-hearing words etc!)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 01:03 PM

The Roud index has 14 entries for this song (in my copy at least), as below:

Mick




Title                            Source
LORD SALTON AND AUCHANACHIE       Buchan, Ancient Ballads & Songs 2 pp.127-129 (coll: Peter Buchan)
ACHANACHIE GORDON                Douglas, Come Gie's a Sang (1995) pp.4-5 (perf: Joe Rae coll:Mike Yates)                   
LORD SALTOUN AND ANNACHIE         Bronson, Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads 3 p.422                   
ACHNACHIE GORDON                  Musical Traditions MT CD 313 ('The Broom Blooms Bonny') (perf:Joe Rae coll:Mike Yates)
LORD SALTON AND AUCHANACHIE       Maidment, North Countrie Garland pp.10-11 / Stevenson, Choice Old Scottish Ballads                
LORD SALTON AND AUCHANACHIE       Child, Vol.4 pp.347-350 (No.239) (version a)                           
LORD SALTOUN AND ANNACHIE         Christie, Traditional Ballad Airs 1 pp.10-11                                                               (coll: Dean Christie)
LORD SALTOUN AND AUCHANACHIE      Leach, Ballad Book pp.595-597           
LORD SALTOUN AND AUCHANACHIE      Greig-Duncan Collection 5 pp.321-322 (version b) (perf:William Walker coll: Gavin Greig)
LORD SALTOUN AND AUCHANACHIE      Coffin, Brit. Trad. Ballad in N. America (1977 edn.) p.136                           
LORD SALTOUN AND AUCHANACHIE      Child, Vol.5 (Additions & Corrections) pp.273-274 (No.239)                           
SALTOUN                           Greig-Duncan Collection 5 pp.321-322 (version a) (perf:John Mowat coll:Gavin Greig)
SALTOUN AND ANNOCHIE             Greig-Duncan Collection 5 pp.321-322 (version c) (perf:Miss Bell Robertson coll:Gavin Greig)
YOUNG ANNOCHIE                   Child, Vol.4 pp.347-350 (No.239) (version b)                        


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 03:19 PM

Latest recording is to be found on Sharon Shannon and Friends' CD "Libertango", sung by Sinead O'Connor.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:35 PM

I'm not sure if she recorded it, but the best version I've heard was sung by Janet Russell (still with the tune that I associate with Nic Jones.) I heard Janet sing the song at a ballad session at Sidmouth some 18 or more years ago and the atmosphere was really spellbinding.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM

Mary Black does an excellent version of this. I THINK she states it is a Child ballad, but it's a long time since I heard her.

Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 05:46 PM

Yes Malcolm is perfectly correct, Nic Jones rightly attributed to the song's popularity, words and music, just checked out at home


Song sung by Mary from Steve is Isle of St.helena

never trust your memory!
ray Padgett


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:08 PM

thanks Mick for the listing you gave, it is really helpful, I appreciate i

Robert


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM

Can all of those texts Mick be located with relative ease ??

Robert


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,guest, findmeasylum
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 07:23 PM

Mick, Mike, Malcolm, pavane, anyone ... in all of my searching all that seems to exist is the ballad in it's various forms, is there anything else written down concerning this little ballad.. I am engaged in my own 'creative act' and am wondering if the song is the only template I am going to have to work with, I would hate to think I am going to have to make most of this up.. More work for me to do, I'm chilled just thinking about it.

Mick do any of those texts contain any root stories etc for the ballad.. likely not, I assume, but if you know of any that do, it would direct my search further..
thanks,
Robert


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Subject: Lyr Add: ANNACHIE GORDON (from Loreena McKennitt)
From: The Villan
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 01:44 PM

ANNACHIE GORDON
Words and music traditional; arranged and adapted by Loreena McKennitt

Harking is bonny and there lives my love
My heart lies on him and cannot remove
It cannot remove for all that I have done
And I never will forget my love Annachie

For Annachie Gordon he's bonny and he's bright
He'd entice any woman that e'er he saw
He'd entice any woman and so he has done me
And I never will forget my love Annachie.

Down came her father and he's standing at the door
Saying Jeannie you are trying the tricks of a whore
You care nothing for a man who cares so much for thee
You must marry Lord Sultan and leave Annachie

For Annachie Gordon is barely but a man
Although he may be pretty but where are his lands
The Sultan's lands are broad and his towers they run high
You must marry Lord Sultan and leave Annachie.

With Annachie Gordon I beg for my bread
And before I marry Sultan his gold to my head
With gold to my head and straight down to my knees
And I'll die if I don't get my love Annachie

And you who are my parents to church you may me bring
But unto Lord Sultan I'll never bear a son
To a son or a daughter I'll never bow my knee
And I'll die if I don't get my love Annachie.

Jeannie was married and from church was brought home
When she and her maidens so merry should have been
When she and her maidens so merry should have been
She goes into her chamber and cries all alone.

Come to my bed my Jeannie my honey and my sweet
To stile you my mistress it would be so sweet
Be it mistress or Jeanne it's all the same to me
But in your bed Lord Sultan I never will lie

And down came her father and he's spoken with renown
Saying you who are her maidens go loosen up her gowns
And she fell down to the floor and straight down to his knee
Saying Father look I'm dying for my love Annachie.

The day that Jeanne married was the day that Jeannie died
And the day that young Annachie came home on the tide
And down came her maidens all wringing of their hands
Saying oh it's been so long, you've been so long on the sands
So long on the sands, so long on the flood
They have married your Jeannie and now she lies dead.

You who are her maidens come take me by the hand
And lead me to the chamber where my love she lies in
And he kissed her cold lips till his heart it turned to stone
And he died in the chamber where his love she lies in.


In the end, the album featured 11 of Jones' best arrangements of traditional English and Scottish songs, adapted by Harding and Lloyd. "I really hate to analyze these songs," Harding told me, "because I think they're exactly the way they should be, and full of these stunning images." Still, he's been living with them for some time, and has a lot to say about individual tracks on the album. "'Annachie Gordon' is all about sex," he explained. "I mean, I love the way Lord Saltoun's 'towers stand high.' It's very threatening. And there's the whole rather horrible realm of parentally controlled rape. That to me is chilling, you know, 'loosen off her gown.' It has a very Victorian ending in which everybody turns to stone, but the reality of that song is intense and horrible. It's a song about how women have been treated for years, which hardly makes it a feminist anthem, but it is a horror story."

The Auchanachie Ballad
A Commentary by Professor Gerald Auchinachie
The name of Auchinachie in North America, at least, is not one much seen in print. I remember my aunt writing enthusiastically about a murder mystery simply because it briefly featured a police officer called "Sergeant Auchinachie". You can imagine my pleasure and even amazement as a Canadian when several decades ago I stumbled on the lyrics of the ballad of "Lord Saltoun and Auchanachie" which is #239 in Francis J. Child's five volume collection, "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads"

What is even more pleasing to family vanity is the fact that Gordon Auchanachie of the ballad is depicted as "bonny and braw", the sort of man who "would tempt any woman" who lays eyes on him. Despite his having neither title nor significant land and his being apparently only a fisherman, Gordon Auchanachie has sufficient attractions in Jeanie Gordon's mind to outweigh the material advantages of a marriage to a lord.

The ballad is dramatic, even melodramatic. In Child's synopsis: "Jeanie Gordon loves Auchanachie, who is bonny and braw, but she is forced to wed [Lord] Saltoun, who is bowed in the back and thrawin on the knee [crooked or bow-legged]; and all for Saltoun's lands [he is a Fraser of Saltoun near Fraserburgh in the extreme north-east corner of Aberdeenshire]. Jeanie refuses to be bedded; her maidens, at her father's order, loose off her gown and stays; she falls in a swoon and dies. Auchanachie comes home from the sea the same day, learns what has happened, asks to be taken to the chamber where Jeanie lies, kisses her cold lips, and dies."

You can see a sort of Romeo and Juliet theme here. In his book on the ballads, David Buchan suggests that this one is showing a sentimental streak which connects it with developments in the 18th century. The lovers do seem overgiven to swooning.

Child mentions "airs" (music) which might go along with this ballad, but an enterprising American musicologist, Bernard H. Bronson, actually collected all music connected to Child's ballads and so if one wishes to play the piece, it is better to go directly to Bronson's "The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads". Bronson's discography of the American recordings of Child's ballads (1960) records no performance of the "Auchanachie" ballad, though a more recent discography will reveal at least one post-1960 recording. In the 1970s I persuaded my friend and Concordia University colleague, Harry Hill, a talented actor, voice teacher and singer (from Aberdeen) to record it for me since I never expected that the ballad would take the fancy of any well known singer.

The 1990s proved me wrong. The Canadian singer Loreena McKennitt (now of world reknown) recorded it on a CD called "Parallel Dreams" (QR CD103). It is called "Annachie Gordon" (a name variant given in Child). McKennitt's voice is beautiful and haunting and her rendering is what I would call "lyrical": the sweetness of her voice colours everything and distances the events which, for me, reduces a little the dramatic immediacy of the ballad. Certainly, Harry Hill's interpretation is dramatic; he impersonates the various characters: the angry father, the wheedling groom, the bridesmaids, and, at the end, the bereft Gordon Auchanachie.

However, since McKennitt's is likely the only internationally available rendering and is far and away more than a merely acceptable interpretation, I would heartily recommend your trying to get a copy. Play it to your friends and remind them that your name is famous in song and story.

Gerald Auchinachie, Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Auchanachie Gordon is bonny and braw,
He would tempt any woman that he ever saw;
He would tempt any woman, so has he tempted me,
And I'll die if I getna my love Auchanachie.'

In came her father, tripping on the floor,
Says, Jeanie, ye're trying the tricks o' a whore;
Ye're caring for them that cares little for thee;
Ye must marry Salton, leave Auchanachie.

Auchanachie Gordon, he is but a man;
Altho he be pretty, where lies his free land?
Salton's lands they lie broad, his towers they stand hie,
Ye must marry Salton, leave Auchanachie.

......
......
'Salton will gar you wear-silk gowns fring'd to thy knee,
But ye'll never wear that wi your love Auchanachie.'

Wi Auchanachie Gordon I would beg my bread
Before that wi Salton I'd wear gowd on my head,
Wear gowd on my head, or gowns fring'd to the knee;
And I'll die if I getna my love Auchanachie.

'O Salton's [a] valley lies low by the sea,
He's bowed on the back, and thrawin on the knee;'
.....
.....

'O Salton's a valley lies low by the sea;
Though he's bowed on the back and thrawin on the knee,
Though he's bowed on the back and thrawin on the knee,
The bonny rigs of Salton they're nae thrawin tee'

'O you that are my parents to church may me bring,
But unto Salton I'll never bear a son;
For son or for daughter, I'll ne'er bow my knee,
And I'll die if I getna my love Auchanachie.'

When Jeanie was married, from church was brought hame,
When she wi her maidens sae merry shoud hae been,
When she wi her maidens sae merry shoud hae been,
She's called for a chamber, to weep there her lane.

'Come to your bed, Jeanie, my honey and my sweet,
For to stile you mistress I do not think it meet:'
'Mistress or Jeanie, it is a' ane to me,
It's in your bed, Salton, I never will be.'

Then out spake her father, he spake wi reknown;
Some of you that are her maidens, ye'll loose aff her gown;
Some of you that are her maidens, ye'll loose aff her gown;
And I'll mend the marriage wi ten thousand crowns.

Then ane of her maidens they loosed aff her gown,
But bonny Jeanie Gordon she fell in a swoon;
She fell in a swon low down by their knee;
Says, Look on, I die for my love Auchanachie!

That very same day Miss Jeanie did die,
And hame came Auchanachie, hame frae the sea;
Her father and mither welcomd him at the gate;
He said, Where's Miss Jeanie, that she's nae here yet?

Then forth came her maidens, all wringing their hands,
Saying, Alas for your staying sae lang frae the land!
Sae lang frae the land, and sae lang on the fleed!
They've wedded your Jeanie, and now she is dead.

'Some of you, her maidens, take me by the hand,
And show me the chamber Miss Jeanie died in;'
He kissed her cold lips, which were colder than stane,
And he died in the chamber that Jeanie died in.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:30 PM

Unfortunately, Ms McKennitt doesn't always say where she gets her material. In this case, she seems to have learned it from a Mary Black record ("Harking" was Mary's mis-hearing of "Buchan"). Mary learned the song from Nic Jones (perhaps via her brother Shay) and said so: there is really no excuse for McKennitt's failure to acknowledge the fact that, in the form she recorded it, the song is partly of Nic's making.

Nic adapted the tune from Christie, with a text collated and slightly re-written by himself from the examples in Child. Christie's tune is the only example in Bronson; Bronson comments that the second strain seems (as so often) to be of Christie's own making rather than authentically traditional. Since then, two further examples with music have come to light (John Mowat and John Rae in the list above) but I don't know if they resemble Christie's.

The other text above is Child's example A.

It's unlikely that there is much to say in this new thread that can't already be found here in previous discussions (see the list of links now added at the top of the page). I'll just add Christie's comment, with the warning that Child considered that there was very little evidence to support the suggestion.

"The above beautiful air was arranged by the Editor and his father from the singing of two aged relatives. Through one of these relatives, and her 'forebears,' the Editor can trace the accompanying Ballad almost up to the marriage of George fourteenth Baron Saltoun to Helen, daughter of John Gordon, Esq. of Kinnellar in 1756; but cannot trace the change of 'Helen' into 'Jeanie' in the Ballad. The first verse given here seems to prove that 'Gordon of Annachie' in Buchan is referred to, instead of 'Gordon of Auchanachie' in Strathbogie."

-W Christie, Traditional Ballad Airs, Edinburgh: Edmonston & Douglas, 1876. I, 10-11.

See also appendix to vol I (p 287), where Christie adds:

"In the year 1781, Garden of Troup was the owner of the Manor of Annachie, in the Parish of Deer in Buchan, Aberdeenshire. See 'Collections for a History of the Shires of Aberdeen and Banff,' p. 398 (Spalding Club Edition). Before writing the note, p. 10, the Editor was led to believe that in 1740 a Gordon was owner of Annachie. This, so far, he has been unable to authenticate."

All this doesn't mean that the incidents described in the ballad ever took place; just that the names belong to real families and places. I don't know why anyone would imagine this song, specifically set in Aberdeenshire, might be in some way Irish; unless they have only heard it from Mary Black's arrangement and just made an assumption based on her accent.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: The Villan
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 03:40 PM

It's all very interesting though.

I love this song, and have special reason to. John Blanks sings this song and sung it live on Radio Lincolnshire. It was so good the live recording went onto the Yellowbellies CD that was made to support the Radio Lincolnshire Go for Gold appeal in 2004.
John is a member of the Gainsborough Folk Club, and am a bit surprised that he hasn't picked up on this thread yet.
Maybe he will.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:05 PM

Thanks guys... I am well aware of Loreena's version, and Mary Black's, and have come to know Nic Jones' also.. Until I began serious researching I was not aware of this story's connection to Aberdeenshire.. so this has all been most helpful. I appreciate Villan the detailed info you gave me there. Only until I began looking at Jones and Child's Ballads did I discover that the Harking I had so often heard was Buchan once upon a time... so it's all starting to come together well. Thanks again.. anything else from anyone would be always helpful.

robert


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 07:28 PM

Yes I looked up the thread assuming SJ would have put his head above the parapet on this one.

he certainly does a fine job on this song.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 11:04 AM

There's a fine version on Sharon Fountain's CD "Songs Almost Sung", and it's Sharon's version that I based my own on. Never heard any other version than Sharon's and my own, not even Nic's.

There's my live version on the 'Yellowbellies' compilation CD, which I recorded on BBC Radio Lincolnshire's folk programme last July, and it will be on my own (as-yet-unrecorded-but-soon-to-be) CD, provisionally titled "Better Late Than Never" (although I prefer "Running Naked" but Mrs. Johnny says I'd scare the horses!).

I know nothing more about the song than has already been posted - far less than some posters - I do it because I love it, and because Sharon's recording of it rang my chimes big-style.

Thanks for the compliments guys, very much appreciated.
S:0)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 09:39 PM

Sharon sings an arrangement of Nic Jones' rewrite; as I mentioned earlier, every single time I've heard it sung (and that's a lot of times, by a lot of people) it's always been Nic's set.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 08:16 AM

Oops, sorry - a hint of Shameless Self-Promotion there! Ten Hail Mary's already said! (LOL)
S:0)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,peter.fernon1@bigpond
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:35 AM

Hi, I named my son Annachie after having loved the ballad for many years. Can anyone tell me the meaning of the name?

maria


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:07 AM

its wot you blow your nose on


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Diva
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:26 AM

As far as as I am aware Nic Jones collected the song from Joe Rae of Beith who is the most wonderful source singer and storyteller. There is a version to be found in the song book "Come Gies a Sang" which is from Joe. I'll see him next weekend at Copshaw festival and will ask


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 03:41 PM

Joe Rae from Beith in Ayrshire has a slightly different version and he's been singing it before Nick Jones' recorded version. I believe Joe has a CD on the Musical Traditions lable. Joe's text and tune are in, "Come Gie's A Sang", published by the TMSA (Traditional Music and Song Association), and printed by The Hardy Press in 1995.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 03:46 PM

Enjoy Newcastelton, Diva, keep away from the midges.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:43 PM

Rather than the conventional first line - Buchan is bonny - Sharon Fountain used to sing something quite different. I was wondering what Strollin' Johnny has learned as the beginning of his version of the song.

In his posting, Villan includes, "In the end, the album featured 11 of Jones' best arrangements of traditional English and Scottish songs, adapted by Harding and Lloyd." The quote doesn't refer to Loreena McKennitt's album. It comes from an interview in Dirty Linen with John Wesley Harding, who released his notable album 'Trad Arr Jones' in 1999.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM

I haven't heard Sharon sing the song for some years (or seen her at all, come to that, for quite a while) so I don't recall her opening line. I do remember that she used exactly Nic's form of the tune, though she may have learned it from an intermediate (but not a traditional) source. It isn't relevant to a discussion of the history or background of the song, though.

John Rae's set has been mentioned several times in this thread. The text differs noticeably from Nic's, but follows the same pattern. The tune I haven't heard. Nic was quite clear that he'd adapted several texts, and Christie's tune; but memory, I suppose, could be faulty. Sheila Douglas' book was published in 1995, and Mike Yates' recording of John was released by Musical Traditions in 2001, having been made not long before. Nic originally recorded his set in 1977. Whether he was aware of John's version at that time I have no idea. It would be interesting to know if they met back in the 1970s, though it doesn't seem all that likely.

Of course there is no suggestion that John was influenced by Nic! I haven't heard him sing the song (which he learned from his grandfather, who learned it during the Boer War), though; and as I said, I've never heard anyone sing it who hadn't got it from Nic at one remove or more.

Almost all the recorded examples mentioned here and in other threads on the subject are arrangements by revival performers who tend to learn songs from each others' records rather than from traditional sources, so concentrations of this kind aren't unusual. Before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick (it does happen), I'll add that I'm not suggesting that the distinction I make between revival and tradition implies any aesthetic or other value-judgement; just that they are two different things which need to be considered separately when examining the history of a song.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 12:26 PM

John Rae was a fine hammer dulcimer player from Glenarm. Joe Rae, From Ayrshire, sang his version of this song on one of Nick Jones' guest visits at Kilmarnock Folk Club in the early seventies.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 01:58 PM

Yes, of course, Joe not John (I have John's Topic record, so perhaps that was in my mind). Maybe Nic's memory is at fault, then (he was rather forgetful even before the accident); he certainly used Christie as a source for various things, and perhaps there was a muddle somewhere. I really must get a copy of Joe's cd; I take it you'd say that his tune is essentially the same?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 02:53 PM

No. Joe's tune is a fair wee bit different. More what I would call recognisably Scottish. Joe sings in an older, freer style and likes the big ballads and muckle sangs. He warms to company and good crack but perhaps wasn't quite 100% warmed up on his recording. Joe is also a mine of information on many topics of Scottish tradition and culture, if you have a spare hour, or five, or more.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: Diva
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM

Hi auld timer!!! Joe's recording is of course magic and more power to Mike Yates for making the cd. I think Joe wasn't too well at the time of the recording but its still a belter.And pleased to relate he is back on form. BTW I nearly gave our local radio folk programme heart failure by playing the track "She widnae dae it" (its a bit earthy!!!)that'll be why they haven't asked me back then?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: lesblank
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 11:32 AM

The most beautiful rendition of this great old ballad that I've heard is from Steve Gillette and Cindy Mangsten's CD "Live at the Arc" sung by Cindy. She does it in a ringing high soprano voice that is simply haunting. I've heard her sing this on stage also several times but the CD version is just the best !!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: annachie gordon, traditional
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 01:25 AM

http://members.chello.nl/r.vandijk2/

here is listed almost 50 versions of the song, under the child number.
now to find them all.....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 04:22 PM

Hello All,
          for the benefit of those who know me I must explain how I
come to be using a computer. The answer is necessity,at the back
end of last year I received a reminder from the Revenue & Customs
that as from April next they will not accept written VAT returns
all returns from then have to be on-line. I was therefore forced to
aquire a computer & am in the procces of teaching myself how to
use it.The fact that I am able to post on this thread shows the
progress being made.
Anent the ballad "Achnahie Gordon" I have been singing this for
more years than I care to remember. Certainly in public since the
1950s, in view of the number of portable tape recorders in use
since that time could Mr Jones have heard a recording of this
ballad? I doubt this & as I have never heard him singing this I
leave it to the musically gifted among you to compare the
traditional tune, as sung by me,to that composed by him.{I use the
term traditional as it is now well over a hundred years since my
gutcher learned it}
Thanks to all who remember me singing this ballad long before Mr
Jones composed a tune to the words.
In the early sixties my,then,new wife would instruct me before
appearing in company that I must not sing "that song" {A>G}
suffice to say that after near fifty years she has learned to
live with the auld ballads.
                            Yours,                              
                                  Joe.
   P.S.   When Mike recorded me neither he nor I realised I was ill
          I collapsed three days later with a blood clot & spent the
          next six weeks flat on my back in hospital.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM

Hi Joe,
Welcome to Mudcat.
Now Malcolm is no longer with us I feel he and others like me would want to see your version of the text at least, so if you could post it here we would be grateful.

I know this is a long shot but have you any idea where or how your 'gutcher' learnt it? It would be interesting to compare it with the Christie and Grieg/Duncan versions.

What's the title of your Mustrad CD?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Millindale
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

Dave Burlands is my all time favourite version of the song. I would guess that his version owes a great deal to Nic Jones singing of the song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Effsee
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 10:51 PM

OMG, isn't the 'Cat just the most amazing site!
After 15 years this thread has just picked up a reply from one of the principal characters...Joe Rae!
Welcome kind Sir...this is astounding!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: GUEST,charlie
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 06:20 AM

Never heard D.Burland sing this, anyone know which album it is on?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Joe.
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:16 AM

Hello Steve.

{1} Who is or was Malcolm? The only Malcolm in my ken lives in
      Perth. He sings a beautiful translation of an old gaelic
      ballad from Glenlyon.

{2} Am trying to contact a friend who told me a few years back
      that the booklet to go with the CD was on the computer.
      If this fails I will type out the words.

{3} The CD is MTCD 313.
                         Yours,
                               Joe.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:37 AM

Malcolm = the late Malcolm Douglas, who commented upthread - e.g.

Joe Rae's set has been mentioned several times in this thread. The text differs noticeably from Nic's, but follows the same pattern. The tune I haven't heard. Nic was quite clear that he'd adapted several texts, and Christie's tune; but memory, I suppose, could be faulty. Sheila Douglas' book was published in 1995, and Mike Yates' recording of Joe was released by Musical Traditions in 2001, having been made not long before. Nic originally recorded his set in 1977. Whether he was aware of Joe's version at that time I have no idea. It would be interesting to know if they met back in the 1970s, though it doesn't seem all that likely.

Of course there is no suggestion that Joe was influenced by Nic! I haven't heard him sing the song (which he learned from his grandfather, who learned it during the Boer War), though; and as I said, I've never heard anyone sing it who hadn't got it from Nic at one remove or more.


Worth reading the whole thread. Other comments include:

"As far as as I am aware Nic Jones collected the song from Joe Rae of Beith who is the most wonderful source singer and storyteller."

and

"Joe Rae, from Ayrshire, sang his version of this song on one of Nick Jones' guest visits at Kilmarnock Folk Club in the early seventies."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Susan of DT
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:44 AM

Hello Joe. Welcome to mudcat. If you sign in as a member, you can receive personal messages from other members. We met at a singing weekend in Southern Scotland at an agricultural college, ten years ago, or so. I think Peter Haywood organized that weekend...

Malcolm Douglas was a scholarly type who added good info to many discussions, including this one, see above. Alas, while he was a young man, he has passed on.

CAMSCO Music carries your CD

Susan Friedman


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 08:45 AM

You, know, at these moments I absolutely love Mudcat.

Welcome, Joe.


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Subject: Lyr Add: HANNAH LE GORDON (from Bodleian)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 09:17 AM

Here is the Bodleian version:

HANNAH LE GORDON

Hannah Le Gordon is bonnie and braw
He would tempt any woman that ever he saw
He would tempt any woman, as well as he is done me
And tis all for my Hannah Le Gordon I'll die

In came her father into the room
Oh, Jenny, you're trying the tricks of a loun
Your liking a man that cares naething for thee
Yet it is all for my Hannah Le Gordon I'll die

Before I take salting [Soltan] with his guineas so red
With Hannah Le Gordon, I would beg my bread
How his houses are let and his lands they lay lea
Yet it is all for my Hannah Le Gordon I'll die

Home came her true love, home came he home
Her true love came home from the sea
Her parents kept him long at the gate
What aileth my Jenny she comes no out yet

Down came the Chambermaid wringing her hands
All for your staying so long on the sands
Your Jenny is married and now she is dead,
And it's all for staying so long on the flood

Chambermaid, chambermaid, who was so rude
As marry my Jenny and me on the flood
As marry my Jenny and me at sea
And it's all for the sake of my Jenny I'll die.

Chambermaid, chambermaid, you'll by and by
Show me to the chamber where my Jenny does lye
He has kissed her cold cheek and then her cold chin
And he's died in the room where his true Jenny lay in

Child #239
@ballad @love @death
From the Bodleian Library
versions of the song recorded by Cindy Mangsen, Joe Rae and Nic Jones
filename[ ANGORDN2
play.exe ANGORDON
SOF
2009
||

I'll look for the booklet that goes with Joe Rae's CD and post (and enter into the DT) Joe's version when I find it.


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Subject: Lyr Add: ACHNACHIE GORDON
From: Susan of DT
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 10:16 AM

Joe's version, from his Musical Traditions's CD: The Broom Blooms Bonny:

ACHNACHIE GORDON

Achnachie Gordon, is bonnie and braw
He'd would temp any woman that ever hw saw
He'd would temp any woman, and so has he tempted me
And I'll die if I getna my love, Achnachie

In comes her father skipping on the floor
Saying, "Jeannie, you're trying the tricks of a whore
You're caring for them that cares naething for thee
Ye maun marry Saltoun, forget Achnachie"

"Achnachie Gordon, he is but a man
Although he be pretty, whaur lies his free land?
Saltoun 's houms they lie bonnie and his toors they stand hie
Ye maun mairry with Lord Saltoun, forget Achnachie"

"Ye that are my parents to the church may me bring
But unto Lord Saltoun, I'll ne'er bear a son
For son or for daughter, I'll ne'er bow my knee
I'll die if I getna my love, Achnachie"

When Jeannie was mairriet from the church she was brocht hame
When wi' aa her maidens sae merry should hae been
When wi' aa her maidens sae merry should hae been
She's called for a chamber to weep there her lane

"Come to your bed, Jeannie, my honey and my sweet
For to style you my mistress, I do not think it meet"
"Mistress or Jeannie, it is aa yin tae me
For it's in your bed, Saltoun, I never will be"

Then oot spak her faither and he spak with renown
"Some o you that are her maidens, ye'll loose aff her gown
"Some o you that are her maidens, ye'll loose aff her gown
And I'll mend the marriage wi ten thousand pounds"

Then yin her maidens, they loosed aff her gown
But bonnie Jeanie Gordon, she fell in a swoon
She fell in a swoon low doon by their knee
Sayin, "Look on, I dee for my love Achnachie."

That very same morning Miss Jeannie did dee
Aye and hame came Achnachie, hame frae the sea
Her faither and mither welcomed him at the yett
He said, "Where's Miss Jeannie that she's nae here yet?

And down came her maidens and they're wringing of their hauns
Saying, "Alas, for your staying sae lang frae the land
Sae lang frae the land and sae lang frae the fleed
They hae wadded your Jeannie and noo she is deid"

"Some o' you that are maidens, tak me by the haund
An' show me to the chamber that Jeannie de'ed in"
And he kissed her cauld lips that were caulder than stane
And he's de'ed in the chamber that Jeannie de'ed in


This ballad from the far northeast of Scotland ? the Gordon
family estate was near Elgin, while the Frasers of Saltoun
lived at Philorth, near Fraserborough ? tells a story that is
relatively common in folksong and folklore; namely the forced
marriage of a young girl to a rich suitor, so that her family may
benefit from the family's estate. In this case, the girl dies,
as does her truelove when he returns from sea and is shown
her corpse.

John Rogerson, Joe's grandfather, learnt the ballad in South Africa
where it was sung by a fellow Gordon Highlander sometime during
the Boer War.
Child #239
@ballad @love @death
ascrecorded by Joe Rae
filename[ ANGORDN3
SF
2009
||


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Joe.
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 10:20 AM

Hello Susan,
               I remember you well from our meeting at Auchincruive
   it surely cannot be as far back as ten years. Give my regards to
   Dick his was one of the two e-mail addresses I had when I took to
   using this machine six weeks back & I was going to contact him at
   that time, however I got side tracked to Ulster & involved in
   long discussions on gospel songs in Scots the Scots Ulster
   language & the settlement in Ulster of Scots from the area where
   I live, in 1606                                                   
   Is the old Professor & his wife still to the fore? He was         
   really scandalized to learn that in Presbyterian Scotland
   we worked on Christmas day into the early sixties
                                                    Yours,
                                                          Joe.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM

Susan and Joe,
Many thanks for both of your excellent contributions. Unfortunately the broadside has no imprint, but is described as 'A New Song' a pretty meaningless term in the case of broadsides. It was used simply to increase sales.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Effsee
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 11:25 PM

I'm still trying to get my head round the idea that any Scotsman would go by the name of Hannah!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: The Villan
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 11:58 PM

I like the Unthanks very much and really like their version.

The Unthanks - Annachie Gordon


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Susan of DT
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:13 AM

Joe - Please register as a member of mudcat - easy and free - so we and others can exchange private messages with you. You probably have obsolete email addresses for both of us. Dick's email is all over this site, so no harm will be done to list it here: dick@camscomusic.com - the "music" part was added a few years ago. My old digitrad address is not functional.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Gutcher
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:50 AM

Hello EFFsee
    If you knew me you would consider it more than astounding you
    would put it down as a miracle {ie} using a computer. It's
    amazing what fear can do to one, in this case fear of a visit
    from the dreaded VAT INSPECTOR,my accounting method being of
    the back of an envelope school.
    Being snow bound at present gives me the time to consult my
    books on Gordon family history do. Frazer, Lords Saltoun.
    Having gone through this exercise many years ago I do not
    expect to come up with any new facts about the ballad.
                                                          Joe. .


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Deneb
Date: 09 May 10 - 05:48 AM

Hi to you all from Rome, Italy!

I decided to post a reply to this specific thread - even if I see that the last message was written in January, so I am not sure someone will read mine - because I was very interested in learning the song "Annachie Gordon" and found a great deal of information thanks to the discussion above.
So... thank you :)

Concerning the song, I will look for Joe Rae's album, as the version I know is probably Nic Jones'.

Singin' Gaia


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Gutcher
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 12:22 PM

It has been mentioned to me that I do not give the proper designation
to Mr Gordon in the version of this ballad that I sing.
ACHNACHIE Gordon is what I sing and after recording it at the S.O.S.S. the young lady doing the recording and I had a discussion
on this apparent anomaly.
Shortly thereafter I was checking another subject when I came across
the mention of a wedding between a Miss Achnachi and a Mr Gordon
in the parish records of Knockando, the very area where the
ballad is supposed to have originated.
Oral transmittion is, in my view, vindicated by this discovery in as much as the name ACHNACHI was not unknown in those parts.
Who knows, the young lady"s father may have been Achnachi of that Ilk
and if she were his heir her husband would, by the law of Scotland,
have become Achnachi Gordon. A descendant of the marriage could have
been the Gordon of the ballad.
Joe.
Joe.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 03:55 PM

Joe,
Have you got the dates for that wedding?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Gutcher
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 05:19 PM

Steve the answer to your question is no. I passed the information as
found to the lady in the S.O.S.S. in the hope that they would do a
bit of research and come up with the answer.
As yet I have had no response from that source.
Joe.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: pavane
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 11:42 AM

Here you will find a reference to Arendina Maria Hendrika ANNOCQUÉE, A Dutch lady, probably with a French background, who lived around 1780-1810.

Annachie is presumably the same name as ANNOCQUÉE


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Céline La Frenière
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 02:22 PM

I am writing a novel in which one of my characters who has a beautiful voice sings the first 2 stanzas of this song. Would anyone know of a version of it, which is free from copyright? I am at a lost to know where to turn to either get permission to use the words from a modern singer or find a version which is free from copyright. Céline.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:04 PM

Here's a version that was published in 1876:

LORD SALTOUN AND ANNACHIE

http://books.google.com/books?id=SowwAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA10


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: GUEST,Céline La Frenière
Date: 21 Apr 13 - 10:37 PM

I am extremely grateful to Jim Dixon for this useful information. I have located the old version of Lord Saltoun and Annachie, which is perfect. Sorry I didn't make contact earlier. Like Joe, I'm not too adept with IT. I couldn't locate the site. Again, thank you. Céline


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 10:52 AM

Well it was lovely to hear Joe Rae in fine form when he sang this on Saturday night in the Canon's Gait in Edinburgh; I do hope the recording he made for the School of Scottish Studies will appear on the Tobar an Dualchais website before too long.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Gutcher
Date: 22 Apr 13 - 04:02 PM

Great weekend Matthew, where else could we get wall to wall doom and gloom with never a geetar in sight.
As regards the origins of this particular ballad my researches have come to an impasse on two counts--the R.C. church require an unquantified sum for a search of their records for the Bamff/Buchan area for the period in question and what records they do have may be in latin.
As mentioned on another thread last year I have ,to my own satisfaction, narrowed down the period when the events narrated in this ballad could have occured to 1555--1600, this being the only period when Achnahie of that Ilk who by some legal means retained the designation of Achnahie after having disponed the lands of that name to Gordon of Balnakettle who by the law of Scotland should have been known as Achnahie. As we could not have two people known as Achnahie at one time, Gordon to show his territorial designation and to distinguish himself from other Gordons would have adopted the style Achnahie Gordon while Andrew Achnahie was still living.
Joe.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Gutcher
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 07:22 AM

I should have mentioned in one of my previous posts above, that in one legal document there were seven different spellings for the name Achnahie.

In the timescale mentioned, {1555--!600} for rich people, and these were rich folk, it was the custom to have what are now known as pre-nuptial agreements and these would be recorded by the church, in this case the RC church as the Gordon"s adhered to that church for a much longer period than the majority of their neighbours.

Without access to the RC records, one cannot at this time name the designation of Jeanie Gordon"s family and put a firm date as to when the marriage took place, thus giving a base date to work from and possibly having further details in the surviving records of Jeanie"s family.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 11:02 AM

Apart from hearing Joe singing since at various Scottish singing events, the first time I think I heard this song it was sung by Corrina Hewat at the "Scots Women" concert at Celtic Connections in Glasgow in 2001. It was subsequently released as a live CD on Greentrax.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Annachie Gordon
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 18 - 02:12 PM

Happy New Year, Joe
I always find your posts fascinating.


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