Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: DonD
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 09:35 PM

Typos and misspellings are amazing! Her ass 'tapered to a trim waste'? Sadly for that hospitalized GI, that's all it was -- a waste.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: mg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 09:36 PM

thank you willie-o. They don't want to be called Americans, they just want to prevent us from calling ourselves what we have always called ourselves. I am quite willing to share the word with anyone who lives on an American continent, South, North, (middle??) and has a desire to call themselves that (although they might prefer Venezualan, Brazilian etc. Greenlandian??? but I am unwilling to be told I can not use it myself.

mg

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 09:44 PM

I hoped someone would enjoy that.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 09:51 PM

Don, did you catch the earlier one? No one else has I don't believe. "There is a seat in the real world with your name on it."
Altho' the connection to "Marvelous Rear" may be tenuous, it was there. or did Paxton mean Marvelous Toy?

(Trim waiste or waste of trim? Vulgarity abounds!)

Don, the other one.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Ely
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 10:43 PM

I saw him at Anderson Fair years ago and he had a song about Lorena Bobbitt. As sick as we all are of hearing about Lorena Bobbitt, the song was hilarious. You can't write a song about her and keep it clean, but it wasn't perverted.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 11:17 PM

"trim waste" brought to mind Twiggy and then...Karen Carpenter

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 03 - 02:43 AM

Just what's so great about irony? I recognize that I tend toward the literal but it is my contention that if people were more direct and open in their communication, there would be fewer hurt feelings and enmities. And what's so bad about that?

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 10:19 AM

Don, I missed your response somehow. I admire the scrupulous responsibility of the communicator, but I have trouble matching your description to what I know about the experiences of great communicators. Most can be, were, and still often are misunderstood. Everything can probably be misunderstood.

   I think of many great and highly moral books have been taken to be pornographic. I think of the painter De Kooning, who I consider great, and his comment that nobody noticed his women paintings were funny. Nobody had expected high art in the abstract expressionist vein to be funny. I believe that audiences form tenuous connective mindsets, rote expectations, which frequently misapprehend all sorts of things to an almost uncanny degree. When you go back and try to see how some of these things happened, it's hard to see what the problem was.

   If one can't risk being misunderstood I think one may risk falling into saying only those things that are ready-made to be expressed, a manner of illustration of those given meanings and intentions. It can be a kind of hidden censorship, at worst. It's not for me.

    I heard an opera singer yesterday telling how the sorts of things she routinely performed for German audiences got quite a different response from opera traditionalists in the U.S. One e-mail described her as a mole, a double-agent, on a mission to undermine western civilisation. All she could do was laugh (perhaps maniacally, while stroking a cat) and her company now calls her The Mole.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 11:50 AM

I just wish people would just leave songs alone instead of Politcally correcting it and everything else, or in years to come, we won't be able to open our mouths in case we upset anyone.
As I said before it's just a song.
Tom

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 01:18 PM

Re: The idea that if an audience don't get "the point" of something, it's got to be the fault of the person making the point. Well, this is a complex question; for example, my experience of hearing a particular piece of music could be a totally different experience than the person sitting next to me. Take Flamenco music. I have studied flamenco music for a number of years, and when I hear a flamenco piece I can know understand and enjoy it on a level that an uninitiated listener could not. It's like the wise crack " there are only two Irish folk tunes, a fast one and a slow one". Who would agree with that sentiment? I was going on to make another point here but...I'll use that as a new thread.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM

Well, I agree that it's a complex question, Tunesmith, and I think your example of Flamenco music goes to the point. Sometimes people don't understand things because they aren't familiar with it, and they misunderstand it in terms of what they are already accustomed to hearing.
   I'll watch for the new thread, seems like a good idea..

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 08:39 PM

Yowsa! A most amusing thread, Tunesmith, and to think I ignored it till now, not being particularly interested in Tom Paxton's sexual proclivities... :-)

You seem to have a gift for stirring up a certain amount of controversy on the ol' Mudcat. As far as irony goes, Canadians love it, so let's have more, I say!

You want perversion? Try out these Dylan lyrics...

"they asked for some collateral and I pulled down my pants"

"she takes just like a woman, yeah, she makes love just like a woman, and she aches just like a woman, but she breaks just like a little girl"

"I saw you makin' love to him...you forgot to close the garage door"

"but you will wind up peeking through her keyhole down upon your knees"

"the sword swallower walks up to you and then he kneels, he crosses himself and he clicks his high heels, and without further ado asks you how it feels, and says 'here is your throat back, thanks for the loan'"

"Dr Filth he keeps his world inside of a leather cup, and all his sexless patients they are trying to blow it up"

"And she says 'your debutante just knows what you need, but I know what you want'"

Gotta hand it to old Bob!

Then there's that Jackson Browne song called "Redneck Friend". It's about his "willie".

Then there's Olivia Newton-Joke doing "Physical" and other suggestive tripe like that, and pretending it's about phys ed or something.

Then there are those increasingly desperate Mariah Carey album covers in which we get to see a little more of Mariah each time...

Man, it's a jungle out there! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 10:23 PM

Hi Fred,

My point about communication may not have been well made. I'm not suggesting that communication be unsubtle and needing a bit of effort to understand. I just don't want it mired in impossibility.
My son has this fascination for a band called Rammstein, a techno gothic powerhouse from Germany. Musically incredible stuff. Their songs are all sung in German and often screamed to the point of added indecipherability. I suspect in Germany where the language is uderstood the words have meaning.
But I speak no German nor does Greg so neither of us have a clue as to what is being said. The only communication that has happened here is "If you wanna know what is being said, learn German."
The music is powerful and it creates great rhythmic emotion. Is that the message that is being sent? I don't know but it may be. I'm a word guy. For me there is no message or meaning out side the words.
I don't know that I am ready to accept that emotion can be a message .   Certainly Beethoven could plunge emotion to great depths and lift it to great heights all in the same piece.
   So if emotion can be a message then communication has to be on physical level. But pure communication where information is passed from one person to another has to be understandable by both parties.
Like a speach impaired person running down a hotel hallway signing "FIRE!" and everyone burns to death but him. Did communication take place?
I don't imagine I've made my point any clearer but I sure hope I've opened a real fun debate.

Don

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 09:49 AM

Don, I think I may have misunderstood your point, but it's an interesting subject. The example of the German band reminds me of a few things. I'm not sure, I haven't kept up, but I think it was the band Tool that did a very sinister-sounding song with german lyrics culminating in a horrible scream--which turned out to be a recipe, and the frightful cry translates as And then you bake it!!!

I think a lot of rock really is mainly about energy, and a lot of the lyrics are just props, loosely grabbed up as if there isn't time to find the right words. It may correspond to a feeling, and an unwillingness to explain or pin down that feeling, maybe. An unreflective emotional state. I think when rock gets too sophisticated lyrically or harmonically it tends to not work as rock anymore. But I don't know, it doesn't work for me like it used to.

   There is a strain in literature and popular music of words that seem intended to merely sparkle with possible meanings, a sort of Gertrude Steiny stuff, or collage-effect, maybe, that carry no particular point. I'm not sure what I think about it, except that it's silly for the songwriter to turn around and say it's Really ABOUT whatever they say they intend, when they never made it clear. They tend not to be my favorite lyrics, but I'm not opposed to the manner. I like listening to Angelique Kidjo, and don't know what the songs are about--I think I know what they ought to be about, and get a few ideas for my own lyrics sometimes, but I might be disappointed if I learned.

   I suppose I think when you give up coherent verbal sense, it's a loss, but sometimes it's given up for a musical purpose, a psychology, and it may more or less achieve an end.

   A friend of mine who seems a little struck by celebrity always says it seems to her that anything so many people respond to must have something to it--they can't all be wrong. I always say Yes they can, it can have to it, sure. I just like to be skeptical about audiences, like that.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 01:24 PM

Yes...

What really intrigues me is what would happen if chinchillas made rock music? I am still hoping to put together a group of them and find out.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 05:03 PM

It appears that "Guest, Tunesmith" has started about 17 threads in the past week, and approximately 15 in the past three days. In each case - in all of the ones I've looked at - the same maudlin "you don't understand me so you're stupid" argument has ensued.

I hope this won't be construed as a personal attack, but there is apparently a problem with our understanding of the intent, and naming, of these threads. Perhaps when we're more familiar with this "Guest," it will be easier to get the point(s). Until we become better acquainted, I would suggest less "cleverness" and more clear and constructive participation.

Clones are welcome to delete, if this is too personal; but I don't see a way to offer a point (to a GUEST) otherwise.

John

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: GUEST,tunesmith
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 05:25 PM

Please don't delete JohnInKansas!!! Have I started so many threads? Now, I've never called anyone stupid! I have, in frustration, told some to use their brains! It's obvious that I'm receiving fall-out from my anti-Jesus postings, and, referring to my old drinking buddy Tom Paxton as a sex pervert, didn't gain me many friends. But surely from the content of my my postings, anybody could not see that that was a tongue -in-cheek comment, and that I am greatly impressed with Tom's lyrics. I was even called a prude! People who know me would find that accusation hilarious! I believe all my postings have something interesting in them. I, in my turn, am amazed at the hostility that has been directed at me. Maybe, I should have paced myself more, but.... why? The purpose of the forum is for people to comment on various aspects of music - and more. That's what I'm doing.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 06:41 PM

Tunesmith, maybe you're right, and you could pace yourself. Start fewer threads, or take a little more trouble setting them up. I was pretty surprised when I found your thread folowing up this one, that so many people thought it was pointless, and were quite pissy about it. But then, maybe if you'd broadened the scope of how you introduced it, it would've seemed more interesting to more people.

   Paradoxically though I think you probably would get far fewer responses. Funny, but it's a lot easier for people to condescendingly tell you your thread is stupid than it is to contribute good observations of their own. Easier to get huffy about already knowing what you're saying than to say what it is they do know about it.

The times I've tried to start threads about stylistic concerns and aesthetics they sank like rocks, and I admit I rather enjoy your perhaps clumsy, semi-trolling manner. At least people respond. The misunderstandings and stuff are sometimes amusing, and it's worth the fuss.

    G.B. Shaw was sort of a troll, comparing himself favorably as a playwright over Shakespeare, singing his own praises, aggravating people, making his iconoclastic paradoxes and annoying everyone. But as G.B. Shaw once said, in his own defense, when he started writing about Shakespeare, Shakespeare was a chore, poorly performed or attended. When he was done Shakespeare was a happening thing most people talked about. I wish I was more provacative, I guess. I'd like to see letters to the editor about performances and art shows. I hate all the puff-piece, politese, poodle-groomed reviews. The first five years I lived in Louisville I never once saw a visual art review that did not include the word "notions"--it was disgusting. I've enjoyed some of these threads and a lot of the contributions to them have been first-rate fun.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:25 PM

Then there's Buffy Sainte-Marie singing "there are 97 men in this here town would give a half a grand in silver just to follow me down...so appreciate a dedicated baby, cos, boy, you are a lucky ma-a-an!"

Shocking! Brazen! No wonder the US government had her blacklisted off all the radio stations for about 10 years. They just can't bear immorality. ;-)

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Mickey191
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:25 PM

And Your Point Is??

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 11:38 PM

Shit.
I thought I closed this thread...
Are you smoking something funny, Little Hawk?
love,
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: guitar
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 04:37 AM

No he's not guest you are a prude

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Betsy
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 05:10 AM

Iwouldn't have a word said against Tom Paxton without doubt a great wordsmith, an unassuming star of the folk scene, in my view a great part of the Folk revival in England - his songs were the backbone of many a folk evening in the 60's' 70's and 80's (and still are).How any anyone can put Tom Paxton in the same sentence as the word "sex-pervert" is beyond me. Get a life you narrow-minded arsehole.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: guitar
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 06:13 AM

This is just another PC idiot, that doesn't like offending anyone, well you've offended quite a lot of people here DICKHEAD?ARSEHOLE

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 06:53 AM

Which one's the dickhead?

Which one's the arsehole?

Oh, God, I hate it when I don't get given a scorecard....

Peter.

Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude?
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 07:16 AM

Little Hawk replied to the subsequently deleted spam that refreshed this 4-year old thread.