Happy 4th of July

Subject: Happy 4th of July
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 06:43 AM

Hope you guys over the pond have a great celebration.
Slainthe.....Giok

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Giac
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 09:25 AM

Personally, I'm not up to much celebrating this year, but that doesn't dim my love for my country.

I love America.

My great-grandfather fought in the War Between The States, some of you would say on the wrong side. But he fought for what he believed, as did many of his brothers and cousins. Because the USA is what it is, he was able get past "the past" and make a good life for his family on a new homestead in state further West.

My father was in World War I. He was fiercely patriotic. His own father died while he fought in Germany.

I was born on the brink of World War II. A cousin, whom my mother had raised, was a bomber pilot, leaving a boxing scholarship at LSU to join the Army Air Corps. The last time I saw him, I was around 3 years old. He was flying his bomber to Texas to leave with the rest of his squadron for the Mediterranian. He flew low over our small town square, "buzzing" the courthouse and our newspaper office. My Dad carried me outside so I could wave to "Ramie" who was going to fight for America. He and a close friend from home went through it all together. Raymond had flown his last mission and was ready to come home, but his friend had a premonition about his one remaining flight and told Raymond how scared he was to make the last run. Raymond told him to go on home and he'd take the flight for him. He did not return, but his buddy made it back.

My half-brother, who was 30 years my senior, fought in World War II. When he came through town on the troop train, headed for Europe, I thought he was the most handsome soldier I ever saw. He, thank God, came back safely.

I had cousins in Korea and friends in Viet Nam. Some came back, some didn't.

They all had a common thought. They loved America and were doing their best to keep her free.

I love America.

Mary

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 09:46 AM

My ancestors, according to Family Tradition, left the Electorate of Hanover to avoid conscription. They arrived in the US just in time to participate in the Blackhawk War (although some may have come over as Hessians during the American Revolution).

Another ancestor fought in the Mexican War and was wounded at Vera Cruz.

Peter Strunk, father of my Great-great Aunt Tilly, fought in the Civil War in the 14th and 16th Illinois. Regimental histories show that his units fought at Corinth, Shiloh, and other places; he most likely was in the "March to the Sea."

Others fought in the Indian Wars, the Spanish-American War, and World War I. I was born while my father was in the Philipines during WWII; Uncles Earl, Bob, Jack and Gene also fought in the Pacific Theatre. Uncle Gene was laying on his cot on Saipan, relaxing, when his brother Jack dropped by to say hello.

We didn't miss Korea, but I can't remember who was there. My cousin Chuck barely missed being sent to Beirut with the Marines in 1956.

I enlisted in the National Guard in the 1963, my brother Tony in 1964. Our unit was activated in May 13, 1968 and on May 14 Tony and I went with my mother and sister to see my brother Ted off to Air Force -- in 24 hours all three of my mother's sons were in the service. Tony and Ted both served in Vietnam, I served in Korea.

Other cousins have served during the fighting in Somalia, Panama, Gulf Wars I and II, and elsewhere. If you count my wife's family, we can add the Normandy Landings, the Battle of Bulge, service in the Philipines during the Huk Insurrection, and the "Thousand Mile War" in Alaska, among others.

My family has also participated in the Berlin Airlift, riot duty, and fought floods on the Mississippi.

My country might not always be right or elect the best leaders, but it's still my country and yes -- I care.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM

Happy Fourth of July from North of the 49th.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 02:57 PM

Mary,
There was no "wrong" side in the American Civil War only winners and losers.

My Uncle Tommy fought in WWII and sent home a machine gun in pieces. Mom, one day, got the bright idea to set it up on the front lawn and have the kids' pictures taken with it. Found out it was illegal to own a working version. DOH!

I did some minimal decorating - Chinese lanterns painted with stars and stripes. An interesting approach, I thought. Happy Birthday America and many more.
SINS

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 03:00 PM

Looks like the President is celebrating it by admitting that he doesn't know where Saddam is.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST,Schrodinger's Cat
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 03:42 PM

Could someone please tell me why we celebrate the Battle of the Horns of Hattin (fought 4th July), which caused widespread lamentations at the time, lost Jerusalem to the Christians and sparked off the 3rd Crusade.
S's Cat

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 04:15 PM

From another thread: get a t-shirt that says "I don't hate America: I remember her."

A good response to rwn's who want to tell you how you feel.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 04:25 PM

Read the Declaration of Independence today. The same conditions exist today that existed on July 4, 1776. Oppressive government. This is no day to celebrate. Not anymore. America has been seized by terrorists and they have our Constitution squarely in their crosshairs. Any American who celebrates his or her 'independence' today is a fool.

Declaration of Independence

Patrick Henry's Speech

We have been taught in the U.S. about the 'balance of powers' and been led to believe the executive, legislative and judicial are the three parts of that balance. But there are two more. The citizenry and the jury system. The 3 often named are absolutely subject to the two never named. And now we have a govt telling us the citizenry must be disarmed and the jury system will be replaced by military tribunals. Forget the fireworks this year. Buy a rifle instead. You MUST, as an American, be prepared to fulfill your committment to your founding documents. That is why so many people DIED to give you the documents. Arm yourselves.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 05:09 PM

Ya know, dear Guest, not to seem a fool or anything -- but your passion would be much more persuasive if you weren't so chicken shit about standing up as yourself.

John Hancock's comment about King George reading his name without his spectacles comes to mind. The biggest risk those founders ever took was standing up to be counted. Many of them lost the lives and fortunes they gambled on the back of those signatures. If you are serious about invoking their courage as a standard, you might want to model it a bit more and yap about it a bit less...


A

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 05:29 PM

Well, I think we've been around for a while...there was a great-great- etc-grandfather in the 2nd Connecticut Continentals during the Revolution, and my grandfather, father, daughter and myself have 79 years of military service among us...

But that's really not the important thing. We also have ancestors from five different nations (that we know of) who chose to make this their home. One of my favorite memories is participating in a Naturalization ceremony, and realizing that people are still making the same choice as the members of my own family did. Yes, we've made mistakes as a nation, and we will undoubtedly make more in the future, but its still a wonderful place.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 05:36 PM

"...our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

And they signed it. The British knew who they were, and studying them you find that some bankrupted themselves, and at least one lost his son because of their beliefs were different.

Guest, I just spent 3 hours at a rifle range. I had a great time shooting targets in a safe environment, and found that I will have to re-sight in one rifle. In fact, I may go again tomorrow or Sunday.

I sign in at the range. I do not consider this onerous or fear the government coming.

Either join, sign your name or go away. You bore me silly, and I suspect that you are a government agent trying to ensnare Mudcatters in the tentacles of your master, John Ashcroft.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 05:38 PM

As a descendant of one of the 50 American casualties of the Battle of King's Mountain, I am proud to accept felicitations from our friends on the other side of the pond. (No I do NOT belong to the D.A.R.! Mother was all set to join, but they were unkind to Marian Anderson, and mother felt we contraltos should stick together. I just don't think I'd fit in.)
My ancestor left a very large family to fight for things like freedom of religion. In times like these, it's good to remember his sacrifices and recommit myself to his causes.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 05:38 PM

"Yes, we've made mistakes as a nation, and we will undoubtedly make more in the future, but its still a wonderful place."

That statement would be a whole lot easier to take if you would stop "making mistakes" all over the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 07:21 PM

Ah, pdc, do you really think that if your country, whichever one it happens to be, were rich and powerful and ambitious that it would not make mistakes that impact the rest of the world? A little empathy and humility might be in order.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 08:40 PM

I know of no nation that can or should feel more righteous than another:

England: Where to start, where to start.... With the Highland Clearances? The removal of the Acadians? The Irish Question? The Triangle Trade? India? Cecil Rhodes? The Opium Wars? Being against slavery but selling to both sides of the American Civil War? Introducing smallpox-infected blankets to the American Indians?

Ireland: With the Provos, perhaps? Or with the slaves kept by the Gaels?

Belgium? With the Congo?

France: With Algeria? Indochina? With the "me-too"ism of nuclear weapons? With St. Bartholomew's Day?

Germany: Remarkable -- as bad a England, but with a much shorter time span as a country....

Holland: With the responsibility for introducing the slavery of Blacks into North America? For the African slave trade and all of those "Slave Castles" along the coast of West Africa?

Spain: With the extermination of the Caribs? With the conquests of Peru and Mexico? With the treatment of the Indians in what became the Southwestern United States?

Switzerland: For dealing with the Nazis during WWII?

Shall I continue? Poland, Hungary, Austria, Italy, Vatican City, Luxemburg, Mexico, Japan, China, Iran, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Australia, Canada -- all and more have Ugly Little Secrets in their history, and bigger they were or are the uglier the secrets. Even countries that no longer have a political existence -- Bohemia, for instance -- hold Nasty Little Things in their past.

Don't be too self-righteous, pdc. All of the things done in the past were done for the best possible motives.

And my own country should remember to be nice to others on the way up, 'cause it'll meet them again on the way down.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 08:46 PM

Oh, one more thing: slavery, the buying and selling of human beings, exists today. If you know nothing about it, I suggest you investigate.

And Happy Birthday, Uncle Sam. All in all, I think that you've given more than you've took.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 10:25 PM

I hope I wasn't being self-righteous. I'm from Canada, and we don't have a good record with first nations people here, and I know that if Canada were rich and powerful we might be bullies as well. All human beings have the same faults.

If this was 1903, I'd be making a fuss about English imperial practices. It isn't, however: it's 2003, and the US has a Bushleague presidency that is bullying the world, and so that's who I'm making a fuss about.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Jul 03 - 10:42 PM

Uh Raparire...the clearances were mainly perpetrated by the scottish chieftains and landowners who were suppose to protect their clansmen...some went so far as to selling their people into indentured servitude and slavery...

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 12:14 AM

Amerigin, I know that. But, as the song says, "We are bought we are sold For English gold...." At the time of the clearances, the power was in England, no? Scotland was then, like Ireland, English -- no matter what the Scots or the Irish felt about it.

The sale and enslavement of human beings is wrong, no matter if it's done by a Highland Chieftain or an English Lord or an American plantation owner. It was wrong in the 8th Century, in the 18th Century, and in all centuries.

A true story from my own family: it's 1858 in far west central Illinois.
A knock, and the lady lets in her brother, who she hasn't seen or heard from for several years. He's thin, and from his actions on the run.

"What..."
"Sis, can you spare a sandwich and a cup of coffee?"
"Of course. But...where have you been? What are you doing?" as she makes a sandwich and pours a cup of coffee.
"I'm running from the sheriff."
"What have you done???"
As he wolfs down the food, "Well, it's not very nice. I go South, down river, and tell slaves I'll guide them to freedom. I take them into southern Illinois, across the Ohio, and then across the Mississippi back into Missouri, where I sell them again. They caught me down near Cairo, but I escaped. Have to go now."
And he left. The family never saw him again, ever, or hear any word about him.

Proud of him? Hell NO! We weren't then and we aren't now. But it's part of my family's history -- and I suspect that every family has a black mark somewhere.

Note what I said earlier about Peter Strunk....

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 11:17 AM

A friend passed this along to me. It seems to fit this thread.

4TH OF JULY
Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the
Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British
as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes
ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary
Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from
wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they
pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind
of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were
merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means,
well educated, but they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing
full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter
Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his Ships swept
from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to
pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the
British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He
served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding.
His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward..
Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer,
Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of
Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis
had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged
General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and
Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties
destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.
John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13
children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid
to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning
home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. Some of us take
these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So, take a few
minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these
patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.
Remember: freedom is never free!
Fourth of July has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball games..

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 04:43 PM

A wee Scottish lassie whoemigrated to the USA some years back reckons she's asked every year " Do they have a 4th of July in Scotland"?
Stock reply--" Aye---it comes after the third----"    --[Joke, folks----!!]

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Jul 03 - 04:53 PM

ebarnacle....according to snopes.com...that thing is a bit inaccurate...

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 09:24 AM

OK, what are the facts?

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 02:30 PM

well since you are too lazy or daft to look it up for yourself click here

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 08:55 PM

Thanks for the link. I stand corrected. I passed it back to the person who sent me the other. My comment was based on a general irritation at those who don't simply post links to correct information or the imformation itself instead of telling people to "go look it up."

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jul 03 - 11:53 PM

I do not mean to offend, but I find it difficult to have any "love" of country these days. Yes, I am proud of some of our country's heritage and, definitely some of my own personal heritage, but for what our country represents, these days, in the worldview, I feel heartsick and dismayed.

When I look at our flag I feel almost nothing. This is dismaying when I think back to when my grandma took me out and bought me my very own full-sized flag one 4th of July when I was about 10 yrs old. I was thrilled and so proud. Or, when I think of the op/ed piece I had published which expressed my anger at people who didn't teach their children to stand and cross their hearts when the flag came by in a parade and people who sported bikinis and underwear which looked like the flag, and that was in conservative Wyoming in the early 1990's, not that long ago.

The flag doesn't represent much positive to me in these current times and I feel sad and sorry that it is so. If I were to choose any flag to fly, I would use the one which shows the earth from outer space. More and more I feel like a citizen of Earth and long for the day when we don't need borders and wars and pieces of material with designs which often declare might over right.

In the meantime, I give thanks that our country is healed, for the highest good of all concerned.

Respectfully,

kat

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 04:13 AM

Happy 4th of July folks frae Scotland

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:10 AM

Have a pleasant day.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Beer
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:18 AM

To all my acquaintances South of me enjoy a great celebration.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 07:52 AM

yeh its all getting a bit maudling. Three cheers for the stars and stripes....!

And congratulations on a another year of being better than most other places!

Where else are you going to live....in an igloo at the north pole?

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:17 AM

Thanks for refreshing this old thread. There are some interesting posts above from our members. So let this thread wave once more for the holiday.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 10:20 AM

Flag is out as is the grill. Happy Fourth of July all.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Jul 07 - 01:37 PM

Katlaughing, what you wrote is very moving, and, at the same time dispiriting. I feel sorrow that you feel the way you do.
I proudly celebrate Independence Day; the flag on my house is wafting lazily for all in my neighborhood to see--a neighborhood of native born Americans, Aremenians/Armenian-Americans, Koreans/Korean-Americans, and Black Americans (including a former LA Dodger). Many of those houses--not all--also are flying an American flag. It's a wonderful sight to see.

My display of the flag is not an uncritical endorsement of everything the country it represents has done, or is doing now. Over a lifetime I have been extremely proud of this country, or, at times, very disappointed in it, but never to the point that I do not honor it. History tells me that good and bad as a country are cyclical, and we generally are better off as each cycle ends, and a new one begins

Happy 4th of July. Happy birthday America

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: autolycus
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:52 AM

Happy 4th of July.

So that's 4/7 then (?)





    Ivor

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Bert
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 01:58 AM

Hi katmeluv,

I understand your thoughts on the flag. But it's not the poor flag's fault that our politicians are what they are.

The flag to me, means all the wonderful people that I've met since I've been here, as well as all my on-line friends who I haven't met in person yet.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 10:58 AM

kat,
In the 60s we made the mistake of equating our flag and country and even our soldiers with elected leaders.

I will not let that happen again. Do not let them usurp the flag or god or soldiers in uniform. They twist the meaning of the flag and dignity of our country with lies and dishonesty to suit their own greed for money and power.

bush and Cheney and all who voted to invade Iraq based on what they knew were lies are murderers with blood on their hands. They disgust me so much that were any of them assassinated, I would not mourn.

The flag is a symbol of all that is right in the United States. I respect it for that.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 11:13 AM

I think it was Jim Kunen who summed up a feeling for me in his classic of the '60's, The Strawberry Statement. Reading this discussion here it once again came back to me........

America.......I love what it could be; I hate what it is."

Under Bush and his cronies it really rings more true than ever.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST,bulldog
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 11:17 AM

Ah America. I love it. It is one of Britain's best ever inventions.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: GUEST,Bulldog
Date: 05 Jul 07 - 12:06 PM

Well done Amergin for correcting this disgusting falsehood. The British have always love peace. A piece of Asia, a piece of Africa etc etc. In fact, we love peace so much, the bigger the piece, the better.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:34 AM

The city of Portland Maine just blew $30,000 on fireworks. What a waste of money! That would buy a full tank of gas for my motor home.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 05:56 PM

Anticipating the 4th of July, 2019.

Drive carefully
and
have an extra pillow to squash against your ears
when the fireworks go off after dark.
Otherwise
have a happy healthy one.

My commiserations to all the pet dogs out there.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Mossback
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 06:19 PM

No, that pillow is to drown out Trump's bullshit as he had made this 4th & the national celebration all about HIMSELF rather than U.S. independence.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 11:29 AM

Rap, why ever not be proud of that kinsman?

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:23 PM

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-fourth-hijacking-rnc-tickets_n_5d1a6e06e4b07f6ca5821251

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-military-vehicles-fourth-of-july_n_5d1a36bae4b082e5536d90b6

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:47 PM

Well, I like the parades and the picnics and the corn-on-the-cob and beer, and the bands playing Sousa and the fireworks. I don't like the militarism and jingoism that takes over in some quarters.

Oh, and I really miss the end of the parade in Racine, Wisconsin. Parade goers would follow the steam calliope and the street sweepers down Main Street to St. Mary's Church, where all three priests would be cooking bratwurst and dousing the flames with beer.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 06:53 PM

Mrrzy,

"Well, it's not very nice. I go South, down river, and tell slaves I'll guide them to freedom. I take them into southern Illinois, across the Ohio, and then across the Mississippi back into Missouri,
where I sell them again."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 09:30 PM

Mrzzy was replying to something Rap wrote 15 years ago.

If this is going to be another idiotic political fight, maybe it should be in BS. Or y'all could just let the politics go.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Jul 19 - 10:30 PM

Which kinsman? The dude who stole slaves away to freedom only to resell them? The one who fought in the Civil War? Those who fought in WWs 1 and 2? The one who fought in Spanish-American War? My brothers who were in Vietnam? Me, on the ROK DMZ? My mother, who had all three sons in the military at the same time? Pick one. If it's the first, sorry, no.

Subject: RE: Happy 4th of July
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 01:46 AM

Oops, I thought he took'm to freedom. Shoulda trusted you!