Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: treewind
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:17 AM

"If it comes down to another pop-idol getting the airtime or traditional songs I'll pick traditional songs any day"

Good grief, hands up who disagrees with that!!!

Dan - I couldn't parse your first paragraph at first but I think you are responding to earlier implications that Jim is somehow cheating because he's got a degree and a bit of formal music training. I have no objection to this at all. Music is music, in whatever style, and there's a lot to be said for learning the tools and language of your trade properly.

Now I'm trying to reconcile "working hard for recognition" and "paying a publicist a shedload of money". I suppose at least it demonstrates commitment. Perhaps I should try it.
Hmmm..[peers into piggy bank and counts the pennies....]

I've just released a CD too, so if the BBC doesn't beat a path to my door now I know why :-)

As for the electronic effects, if it's only one song, more fool the BBC for choosing that one as representative. As I said I haven't seen the live show so I'll reserve further judgement.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:12 AM

There are other people using electronic effects in folk. Mad Meg (all then about 16) were using distortion pedals on electric guitar about 8 years ago. There was a chap in the singarounds in Rochester Sweeps this year with a thing a bit like an artist's palette that had slept with a stylophone doing very interesting electronic drones.

I just wish I knew how.

Remember how revolutionary we all thought folk-rock was when it started.

But don't forget the roots either.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,orange utan
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:33 AM

Funny how nobody complains about Peatbog Faeries, Slainte Mhath, etc arranging traditional tunes in a modern way.

If you want source material, get the Voice of the People series, but if you want something you can play to your friends I'd happily play them Jim's album (now that I've got it - *Virgin* has restocked).

Lets just hope more people get the courage to sing our country's songs more loudly and with more confidence - I know I will - because how can one individual wreck a song that's been around for hundreds of years.

(does an ebow work on a mandola?)

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,Spot the Dog
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:51 PM

Oh give me a break...I am easily swayed and a bit of a sheep so now I don't know if I should or shouldn't listen to him. He sounds too young and experimental for me but I like the occasional digital techie stuff.

I'll let apathy win and just not bother. I just don't need another bright young thing in my ears.

Spot.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: sledge
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:51 PM

I saw Jim perform twice at the Fareham and Gosport festival this year, I was in the company of some who prefer traditional to mean just that, little or no experimentation allowed. All of us however were very impressed and thoroughly enjoyed each session, I hope to see and hear lots more of him in the comming years.

Cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,evansakes
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 03:48 PM

Anyone else wondering whether Nik Kershaw could have been an influence on Jim? Not just the ability on guitar and keyboards either or even the embracing of new technology. Vocally he reminds me very much of Nik too. I should say this isn't a criticism as I always loved Nik's stuff and thought the 'Smash Hits' image he attracted was a diversion from a massive underlying musical talent.

Anyway I love most of the 'Sweet England' album and I'm looking forward to checking out the live experience at Twickenham Folk Club in a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,Frog
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 03:54 PM

"Does an e-bow work on a mandola"

Yes it does.

I wish Jim would stop messing round with the computers on stage too, but thats because he used to be a great acoustic guitarist in the Nic Jones/Roger Wilson/Martin Simpson mould when he just played acousticly and sang a few years back. I think the electric guitar doesnt add much to the show.

Having said that, I can't wait till he goes the whole hog and has a band rather than trying (and ultimately failing) to reproduce the album on his own.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: John Routledge
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:19 PM

I keep coming back inevitably to Jim's age - 21!!!!

Perhaps all the pourers of scorn can look back at what they were doing at 21 or even later for that matter.

Happy listening to whatever you enjoy.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:31 PM

Seem to remember 'twas you pouring scorn on his folk music degree, John...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Jon B
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:38 AM

Just for accuracy - Jim didn't study a folk music degree, but one in music composition at Birmingham Conservatoire (info from his website).

Not that this should make any difference to how we treat his music (a point already made).

I'm eagerly awaiting my copy of Sweet England so will wait to add any comments once I've heard it a few times. 'I am Jim Morray' I liked a lot.

I too look forward to it being economically viable for Jim to tour with a band, although unless he finds several very talented multi-instrumentalists it could limit him rather than create more options.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,orange utan
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:48 AM

just needs someone to push his buttons? (phnarr)

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:18 PM

So where is this thread going?

I made the point earlier that, in my opinion, Jim Moray's vocal style reminds me of Jon Boden's...I bow to those who have known Jim for a number of years that this is purely coincidental and Moray's style is more related to Nic Jones although I must admit I can't see it myself.

As far as his degree is concerned - - is this relevant to his merit as an interpreter of radiional song in any way whatsoever?

And as far as the use of sampling, etc,. - - well, what the hell...if you take the stance that all traditional song was unaccompanied does it really matter if you add guitars, mandolins or a full brass section...you are deviating from the tradition.

I honestly and sincerely wish Jim Moray luck...it's been a worry of mine that the banner of traditional English folk song has for so long only been carried by female singers...the Jim Moray bandwagon rolls on and I, for one, shall be watching its progress with interest.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:29 PM

Sorry for spelling errors....for radiional read traditional...and before anyone jumps all over me..I'm not knocking female singers...

Love........Harry. :0)

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: alison
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 04:03 AM

I was sent his EP and I really enjoyed most of it... not so fussed on the over synthesised stuff... but "Poverty Knock" was lovely.... and I really enjoyed his "bonny black hare"

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 09:29 AM

I find it quite weird that there are Mudcatters out there who regard the ability to read musical notation as being something detrimental to 'Folk Song '.

Most of the songs I have in my repertoire were recorded in musical notation.In the days before the wax cylinder was invented the only way possible for transference to a future generation was using this method. Cecil Sharp, Lucy Broadwood, Percy Merrick, Hammond and Gardiner et al would not have had access to the modern technology that Percy Grainger had. They saw the need to use musical notation to let future generations know what they had heard.

For the record: if I was unable to read music I would not have had the majority of my repertoire. There are some people out there have started singing those songs since I resurrected them from the 'dots'. Is there any harm in that?

So why criticise Jim for being musically educated? We all gain. No-one loses.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 09:47 AM

Well said, Mary. While I find myself at a personal disadvantage in being over-reliant on notation and lack the confidence just to join in tune sessions without having learned the tune first from the 'dots', I find it wholly illogical that the 'folkier than thou', 'mud-on -their -boots' and 'horny-handed sons of toil' should be dismissive of Jim Moray's work because he has taken the trouble and gone to the expense of spending four years at the Birmingham Conservatoire.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,cardboard cut-out
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 04:06 AM

Harry B., it's all a matter of timing. I saw Jim play in Keswick in Dec. 2001, and he was doing pretty much what he does now, then. That was before "Through & Through" came out and no one had heard Jon Boden and John Spiers much.
I really like most of what Jim does, it's so different.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 05:46 AM

I've already said "I bow to those who have known Jim for a number of years..." What do you want - - Blood?!?!?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 08:14 AM

Just seen Jim Moray's name on the bill for Bridgnorth this year, so I look forward to seeing him in the flesh- and hearing him!

I have not criticised what he does with the songs- adding / taking away from a traditional song can often add a new dimension to it. The only exception I take is the pop-influenced accent/style of his singing. Fine if people like that, but it is unfortunately too common, small children thinking that singing means imitating the style of their favourite group, and being unable to use their natural voice. :0(

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,john spiers
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 08:40 AM

I've just bought Sweet England and am listening to it now for the first time and I have seen him live a few times. I'd just like to point out that Jim does not have any mid-atlantic accent I can detect, to me a mid-atlantic accent suggests adding an American twang to the voice. I think Jim's voice is perfectly representative of the way 18-25 year olds speak in England at the moment.

As for having a pop voice, that's what he's grown up with! It's what I've grown up with too. 100 years ago Joseph Taylor was recorded on wax cylinder and his voice is definitely not "natural" - he obviously put a lot of work in to practicing fast vibrato and clear crisp diction, as was the style of popular music-hall and light operetta at the time. I don't see any difference between that and what Jim does in the context of today. We don't know what people sang like 200 years ago but I expect that was completely different again.

As for using the technology available today - did people sing folk songs with guitars 70 years ago, no. Did people play melodeons before the 1820s, no but the tunes are the same. The music has always adapted to what people want to play it on. It's been said before on this thread, if an experiment with style/instrumentation doesn't work out and people don't like listening to it then it will be dropped by the wayside and the underlying music will emerge unscarred as it always has. Criticizing anyone for experimenting is foolish because you don't have to listen to it, and it creates an atmosphere whereby people are afraid to try new things ... which can only be worse for the music in the long run.

Just my (long) 2p worth.

John S

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: treewind
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 10:46 AM

Hey, welcome to the Mudcat, John!
Can we expect a non-guest "Squeezy John" to appear on this forum soon?

Right on about Joseph Taylor, especially the diction. I'm not sure whether the vibrato was his or an artefact of the wax cylinder, judging from the other wobbly cylinder recordings I've heard, like John Locke's hornpipe on the first track of Rattlebone and Ploughjack.

Mary (for whom Joseph Taylor is a hero) is looking over my shoulder and asks me to point out that if you listen though the wobbly vibrato on JT's recordings you also hear some vocal decoration which is much more associated with traditional folk song and not part of the usual music hall and light opera singing style.

As for Jim's experimentation, I have no problem with him applying arrangement styles that were developed in the 70's to traditional folk songs if he wants to, but commentators (certainly someone on the radio) who heralded this as "innovative" lost credibility points with me.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,john spiers
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 01:40 PM

Hi Anahata

I've never taken in to consideration the fact that JT's vibrato could be the result of the wax cylinder "wobble" - I have heard the John Locke's Polka as well and I see what you mean. Later source recordings on 78 also show the singers using a fast vibrato though - so I would like to think it's a bit of both (I take on board Mary's point about the ornaments too) - it would be funny if the stylistic vibrato of revival folk singing was a product of the way it was recorded.

On your other point - I think the media are constantly looking for the "latest thing", and "innovation" in order to sell their spin on the scene. When they do this with every act who has a bit of success they are obviously going to be proved wrong on most occasions - no genre of music can have a truly ground-breaking artist every 6 months - it is just hype and I ignore it. We're lucky on the folk scene that nearly all of us are knowledgeable about the music and will make our own minds up.

My only defence for the hype being put out about Jim is that it will give him a chance of being heard by people not "on the scene" because the wider music business is full of that kind of nonsense and you have to shout really loud to get heard and get even a chance of radio play on more mainstream programmes. We've done a bit of that too with our album (although not to the same extent) - I think it boils down to the fact that if you are in the business of selling records you have to play the game no matter how silly you think it is, or you retain your integrity and get no further than the folk market - which as I've said before is less swayed by hype or actively dislikes it. It is clear that Jim and his management company have decided on the former and good luck to them.

Cheers

John S

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 07:08 PM

You make interesting points John, thank you, but I can't agree with you on a few things.

I grew up in the 60s in Liverpool, but I don't sing like Cilla Black...
I heard Jim being interviewed on Front Row, so I heard him speak as well as sing, which is why I made this point. His singing style is quite different from his speaking voice.

I'm not 'having a go' at Jim, I wish him well in what he's doing, but it could be so much better.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 07:19 PM

Blimey (again)
Jim has certainly got loads of publicity after this thread..!!
Good on him!
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,Sally Devlin
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 06:25 AM

Just found this -

Mojo [August 2003]

'It's easy to see why Moray has inspired such excitement. There are plenty of brilliant young British folk musicians around, but precious few doing anything genuinely original. What make Moray exceptional is an instinctive feel for the drama, beauty and intimacy of the traditon, while drawing naturally on the influences of modern culture and 21st century technology to express it.'

Not bad eh? Does this mean he's sold out and given up his integrity or does it just mean that it's a great album? Maybe I won't give in to lethargy and will buy it after all.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:19 AM

The "controversy" in this thread seems to me manufactured. People are vigorously defending Jim Moray from attacks by some wicked old traddies for being able to read music(or having a musical education). But as far as I remember, nobody whatsoever in this thread has made any such criticism off Jim. This is fake controversy, attribute some ridiculous opinion to your opponent so as you can attack it.
   Without having meticulously reread every posting, I think the only comments about musical education were some people disagreeing journalists who think it's important.
   Then again, people are defending Jim from being attacked by old fogeys who say you shouldnt experiment with traditional songs. Where are these attcks by old fogeys? Has anybody said you shouldnt experiment with traditional songs? I havent noticed that.
   The only critisms I've noticed here are of journailsts for overhyping Jim's innovativeness: and of Jim having a mid-Atlantic accebt(amended to "Mid Atlantic" delivery); and one or two people saying they dont like what he does very much. Nothing very controversial there, I would have thought.Nobody has to like anything if they dont want to. So come on, where are these wicked old crusty fogeys trying to stop Jim experimenting? Let's see the names.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,Lidy
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 05:13 PM

What I object to is not people's opinions, even my mates and I can pick bits out of Jim's stuff that we're not dead keen on. I hate all this hype-a-rama new face rubbish, even though it's coming from people who are positive about him. Everything is like Popstars now. If I was reading all this crazy mad stuff about me I'd freak out (er, obviously this would mean I'd need some talent and success!) Fortunately Jim seems to be more able to rise above stuff than I am. Leave everyone to it, not just the young 'uns. Music's about interpretation and fluidity. If you want it to be stuck in a rut you can sing from songbooks. It sounds alright to me!
Lidy

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Ed.
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:16 PM

For anyone still interested, there's a (albeit fairly short) piece about Jim in today's Independent.

Click here to read it.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,Sandy Raymond
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 06:01 PM

Fairly short? It's a feature in a national broadsheet raving about Jim Moray as....the new face of folk.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,Dave the Geetar Dude
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 03:12 PM

At the end of the day guys, Jim Moray is getting gigs, getting publicity and is making his way to be a semi famous seasoned musician. Whether one person thinks its crap or a thousand, he must be doing something right to get the gigs, whether his voice is not the same as his singing , who gives a crap, he's got the balls to sing hasnt he? His doing something fairly original and thats what matters, the fact that he has got the publicity is good, as it gives the folk scene publicity.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Effsee
Date: 11 Apr 11 - 10:23 PM

Just wondering why this thread has re-appeared after so long?

It wisnae me by the way!

Is JM still getting as many gigs?

Never pushed my buttons back then!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM

He was recently involved in the Cecil Sharp Project, gigs regularly in various combinations, and his most recent album 'In Modern History' was probably his best so far (and I say that admitting I wasn't struck by some of his occasionally confrontational attitude when he first came on the scene).

Fair play to JM and many more years of it say I.

My understanding of why threads sometimes reappear like this after years of dormancy is that
a) the thread gets spammed
b) the spam is deleted by a MudElf before the likes of you and me get to see it
c) the thread has seen action in the past 24 hours and so reappears on the front page.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 08:57 AM

Ah, thanks for that explanation Steve.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:17 AM

"Never pushed my buttons back then!"
Mine neither - and he didn't win many friends nor influence people when he visited Mudcat last year (as a guest) and told us we shouldn't be discussing his singing unless we said nice things about it (not in so many words, of course).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Silas
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 09:21 AM

Jim, I normally agree with most of your posts, but not only is that remark unfair, it is simply not true.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:08 AM

Silas - it's on record - he objected to my remarks about his hip-hop version of Lucy Wan and told me to stop.
I pointed out that he, as a guest, had no right to tell us what we should be discussing.
Will dig it out if you don't accept this.
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Silas
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:13 AM

Well, Jim, I just can't see it. I don't know the thread, but I do know Jim and this is just not the sort of thing he does. He actually seems to court controversy and comment on his work and it really sounds so much out of charachter for him to stifle any form of discussion of his work. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 10:42 AM

Silas,
Don't want to reopen old wounds in public, but when I get time I'll pm you the name of the thread.
I'm afraid he hit a sore spot with me as I strongly believe that our somewhat anodine attitude when discussing our singers has done a great deal of damge to the scene.
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Silas
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:01 AM

Hi Jim

I managed to find the relavent thread.
I think, in this instance, you are wrong. I have read the whole thing and at no time did he say or even imply what you attribute to him, quite the contrary in fact.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:10 AM

Thanks for bringing this thread up. I hadn't heard In Modern History before and have just been onto Amazon for a listen and bought it. Excellent stuff!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

"I think, in this instance, you are wrong."
Will look it up later and I apologise in advance if I am wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Jim Moray- new face of folk? BBC R4 now
From: GUEST,bones
Date: 12 Apr 11 - 05:32 PM

whilst your on the subject, I think Jim Moray brought out one of the best haunting folk songs I have ever heard with his lap top. 'Lemady' from his debut cd 'I Am Jim Moray'is simply stunning, and I think it was a track on the FROOTS 20 Free cd from 2003. There is a new version on that 'beginners guide to jim moray' but its not a patch on the original.

Can anybody burn me a copy of the original ?????