BS: Tour de France, Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 12:16 PM

Landis was on Jay Leno's show last night. It was interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:22 PM

It is fun these days to read the German sports pages about doping in cycling.

Of course, no one actually believes that any of the Tour winners since more than 50 years has not been doped. But they all declared their innocence (the system forces them to lie, for if they tell the truth, they lose their jobs). It was common knowledge that nonsmoker Thurau's (multiple winner of stages and 5th in one Tour) urine contained nicotin.

Jan Ullrich once was found with dope in his blood but of course he only had made the stupid error to take something offered by a stranger in a disco. His blood is found in the office of a Spanish gynecologist? Now, can you really be sure that all your blood you ever have donated, has not landed in Spain? You can't. See?

"I have not cheated anyone" Ullrich is quoted which actually may be true in a sense for at least all of the first ten did the same.

Well, not it becomes fun:
First, the long time masseur of Team Telecom (now: T-Mobile) has told that all (wait for an interesting exception) of that Team werde doped in the years he was with them (covering the Tour wins of Ullrich and Riis). A week of dementis followed this information. Who would believe a masseur)

Now, from day to day the domino pieces fall:
Three days ago, one racer of that time declared he was doped (if one of the minor racers of that team was doped...)
Two days ago, a better known but still minor racer of that team followed suit.
Yesterday, old man Thurau admitted having been doped during all of his career (not that anyone had doubted it)
Today, the two university professors who were the Telecom team doctors have both admitted helping with the doping of the team in getting and administering the drugs (EPO) and making them hard to find in controls.
Tomorrow morning, Rolf Aldag, one of the closest helpers of Ullrich, and at present team chef of Telecom will have a press conference and come clean (it has been leaked).
I await the day after tomorrow with anticipation.

The single clean one of Telecom as the doctors and the masseur say? Erik Zabel. He was the man for the sprints and not for endurance. He has declined all offers of dope (if one may believe the whistleblowers).

There are only two possible ways in my eyes for the dope problem in endurance sports:
(1) Don't care which way they get their form but test regularly for dangerous levels and take out those with these levels without forcing them to lie about who has put the dope in their toothpaste without their knowledge.
(2) Have all of them give their blood after 2 weeks of close supervision and make a full DNA etc analysis of their blood for comparison so that those who dope just to the limit (Landis) can get caught.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:35 PM

They are falling quicker:

While I was writing Udo Bölts has come clean as well in a TV interview.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:53 PM

There was a BIG uproar at a court hearing a few days ago, about whether Floyd Landis would be exonerated or not. He still claims he is innocent, and had Greg LeMonde recanting earlier testimony where he accused Landis (says he was threatened)....In the meleé, Landis fired his manager who has made remarks seemingly against Landis....

I have no idea what is true & what isn't....but it sure will be an interesting tour!...if they find 12 guys who aren't guilty to ride in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: gnu
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:08 PM

Hey..... it's cut and dry.... Lance didn't win because of any drugs. He could just pedal faster because he was cut and dry.

It's a joke. Easy, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:45 PM

It seems many of those who DID dope will accuse Lance because they 'assume' no one can be that good without doping.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 07 - 07:18 AM

This morning's press conference of Aldag had the predicted outing: He has taken Epo (administered by university doctors for sports medicine) for many years.

But the press conference had a surprise guest: Erik Zabel

He has taken Epo for one week in 1996 and never after because he couldn't handle the side effects. However, he also has taken the "miracle drink" from the Belgian team masseur. When asked what was in there the masseur only told there is nothing in there that can interfere with the doping test after the race. We now know the drink contained coffeine, Alupent and Persantin (the last two are medications for the heart).

Zabel: I have taken nothing in recent years but I know that it is still as easy to dope as it was 10 years ago. The risk to be found out is minimal and there are a lot of excuses if you are found.

Why telling now when he was not suspected? He loves the sport and wants it to be clean for his son Rick Zabel (who starts his career right now).

Aldag: It was more or less clear that you would lose the job amd the income when not doping. One had to lie all those years for the sake of the income and the family.

Zabel: The only way out is the DNA profile of each racer and better tests.

They don't know about Ullrich both say.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:24 AM

Maybe a joe-clone could take the last few messages and start a 2007 Tour thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:35 PM

Ullrich has fired his lawyer today. The lawyer had said in an interview this morning that the notion should be given up that it is possible to cross the Pyrenees with an average of 40 km/h without medical help.

Bjarne Riis, Telecom's winner of 1996 has announced a press conference for tomorrow. Half of his team of that year have now admitted doping in that year.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:45 PM

Danish Telecom (1993-1997) racer Holm has announced his coming out just an hour ago.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 07 - 01:27 PM

How long does it take to get through to some people that this "sport" is a tour de farce.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: gnu
Date: 24 May 07 - 01:34 PM

Art.... Just do it yourself. Start a new thread, include the last few posts in your first post, post here asking that people post in the new thread, and add a blue clicky to the new thread in your last post here.

Post haste.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:14 PM

THANKS for the heads-ups!

BTW, I don't see any problem with this all being in this thread.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:04 AM

Wow...what a mess. I wonder how many will start this years race. If everyone admits to doping, will all the results stay the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:24 AM

The press conference with Bjarne Riis (still broadcasted) brought no surprise: He has used dope as well, from 1993 until 1998, the end of his career. He has taken Epo, cortisone and growth hormones. In particular, Riis was doped when he was winner of the 1996 Tour.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:53 AM

Anyone see the Tour Prologue and Stage 1? We went up to London for the prologue – astounding number of spectators. The police were expecting 500,000 – over 1 million turned up. The atmosphere was electric.

On Sunday morning we strolled along to the end of our lane and set up camp next to the village pub. By the time the caravan arrived, let alone the race, there must have been about a thousand people there. On one side of us was a couple from Holland and on the other a couple from Scotland. All this at a small village crossroads south of Ashford! A real party atmosphere pervaded the place, everybody chatting to everybody (remember, the way we used to?). Everything that moved got a cheer, from every official car that passed even long before the race arrived, to the police and gendarmerie. When the race finally arrived we made so much noise you couldn't hear yourself think.
Apparently more than 2 million people turned out to watch along the route.

What a phenomenal weekend. A big thank you to all who organised it all, but the biggest thanks must go to Ken Livingstone for getting the ball rolling in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM

I thought it wouldn't be any fun to watch this year, but:

Doping may narrow the field... people may come and go as riders... sponsors may arrive or fade.... but Le Tour is still Le Tour, with mountains and miles to achieve. So Lance isn't there to beat, not the amazing Badger, nor the blame-everyone Lemond....

In the end, it's not a race to beat people, but a race to overcome the course.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Cats
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:08 PM

Jon went up from Cornwall and managed to get a really good place by the end of the climb at Southborough. If you saw a cornish flag on the side of the road, that was him! He was full of it on the phone. Fantastic atmosphere. I had to work.....

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:43 PM

I still watch it on the TV....always interesting. They re-run it in the wee hours, and I often watch it again...

They GOTTA figger out how to keep spectators out of the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:50 PM

HA! That was quite a finish today. Cancellara snuck in and roundly whipped the sprinters at their own game! Good for him! He gets a few more days of glory before the shake-out begins in the mountains.

(I 'would' love to see a breakaway succeed, but it is not likely on flat courses)

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:14 AM

That WAS a fun finish. I usually hate the evening run, because [shudder] Al Trautwig........ but I'd missed the daytime P&P versions.

But that one had us both cheering and screaming, and laughing. Faulkner even got a hockey-goal treat because he KNOWS when we whoop like that, there will be a treat, so he did his "act" to remind us.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM

8 Teams have declared themselves dope-clean before the Tour and have voted for stricter controls. The other teams are against stricter controls.

It has been watched closely that 9 of the first 10 racers at this time come from the teams who resist stronger controls.

But it has also been noted with amusement that the first dope case (known now, but the test was before the Tour) of this year hits one of the 8 dope-free teams: T-Mobile, formerly Telecom. The perpetrator (Sinkewitz) is in hospital after his accident with a spectator. The spectator is still in coma I have read.

Now to the sport: Astana may have made a big mistake changing captain one day late (which made Kloeden lose about 1: 30 min). But the main sponsor who makes the calls comes from Kazachstan, Vinokurov's country. It took them one more day to realise that Vino cannot win this time after his injury.

Each of the first nine can still win at this time. Valverde and Mayo are in the best position I think. If I narrow my prediction, I say only two others have real chances beyond Valverde and Mayo: Rasmussen and Kloeden (Evans being my dark horse).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

Rasmussen 'thinks' he can do well in the Pyrenees, Mayo almost certainly will. The Colombian (and perhaps Contodor)are wild cards. Rasmussen admits openly that 110 miles of time trials are a problem for him..

If I was forced to bet a dollar, I'd put it on Mayo, then Kloeden...but I think I shall just watch, rather than bet...too many varibles this time. All it would take is one broken bike, or a crash, to put someone like Leipheimer in the lead...and he can ride time trials...

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 05:51 PM

Did anyone see the opening ceremonies? Those kids on bikes at the very beginning were from Limpit's school bike club!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 07:17 PM

So far, I have seen one big, burly man reach out and yank some kid off the road as he was trying to run beside the competitors, and one rider take a swipe at a kid running almost against him....in yesterday's breakaway (near the top of the last climb) ...I saw a spectator's dog get hit by a bike, and numerous other stupidities....and we aren't eve to the Pyrenees yet!

(yes, I know...my perennial complaint! I suppose they will do sonething about those mountain finishes when some idiot with a flag injures the leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:12 PM

Time to watch Triplettes de Belleville encore!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 10:35 PM

I felt bad for the poor dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 01:58 AM

So... just like a normal day for the pedestrian then! I've lost count of the times I've nearly gone flying after a stealth cyclist has snuck up behind me as I walk down the pavement. You'd think there would be a law against that... Oh wait, there is!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 05:04 AM

So, now that most of the Tour and most of the difficulties are behind us (them), we can have a better look at the results from the dope angle. There are 21 teams competing which have split up just before the Tour in 8 teams that opted for stricter controls and an honour code for all racers not to dope and 13 teams that were against stricter controls (the present controls only find the stupid as we know). The argumentation of the teams against controls: We do not dope we just take medication as anybody else does.

Let's look at the overall standings: The present leader should not have been allowed to start according to the dope regulations. Among the first 25 of the overall standing is just one single cyclist from the dissident 8 teams (Kirchen, 14th, from the not completely clean team Telecom). The next from a clean team is ranked 28th. Among the first 20 are 9 Spanish cyclists with known or presumed relations to dope pope Fuentes. The first 8 teams in the team ranking come from the 13 teams against stricter controls.
Honi soit qui mal y pense?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: JennyO
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 07:03 AM

200.

Because I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:43 PM

absolute boresville,giant yawn

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 12:33 PM

Vino has been doped (blood from someone else) the day he has won the time trial in such a splendid manner. Astana (Vino, Kloeden), the preasent leader of the team classification, is rumoured to take the whole team off the present Tour tomorrow.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: redhorse
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 03:27 PM

Yes, Astana's out
here we go again

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:11 PM

It's sad. My favourite sports are running and boxing but I absolutely love Le Tour; however, certain riders are going to destroy it if their not careful. Vinokourov- the pre-race favourite is out, and there's a great big, suspicious looking, cloud hovering over the current race leader Rasmussen.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 06:28 PM

oh, I hope no more doping is found! It has been nice watching Rasmussen doing well..and Contador chasing. It has even been good seeing Vinikourov coming back....but to win a stage after such a bad day IS suspicious...and they still haven't decided Landis' case.

If they don't solve the doping problem, the Tour may not have much future.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Gulliver
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 10:03 PM

From what I've observed, the whole thing is a joke--it's just a matter of who manages to avoid getting caught. They all seem to be doping--just who is NOT doing it?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:23 AM

oh, I hope no more doping is found!

I hope no more doping takes place but, if it does, I hope that it is found. The UCI have to be seen to be in control.

Kill or cure is the only future for Le Tour.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 07:51 AM

I'm so saddened by the current situation. It seems crazy to risk everything if you are almost certain to be caught by the present doping controls. We appear to have one of following scenarios:

1.        The riders in question are incredibly stupid (I find that hard to believe, particularly in the case of those such as Vinokourov).
2.        The riders in question are incredibly arrogant (same as point 1 in reality).
3.        The doping culture is so entrenched in some riders. Let's hope the younger generation of riders coming along, like Mark Cavendish, can change that mindset.
4.        The testing procedures are dangerously inaccurate. Dangerous because they are playing with the riders livelihoods. If this is the case it would explain why Floyd Landis is fighting his case so hard when all the evidence seems to be against him.

Unfortunately the doping culture has been endemic in pro cycling for many years. I recently read William Fotheringham's book on Tom Simpson, "Put me back on my bike". Simpson was my hero, and it's a superb book, but quite depressing in regard to all the doping that went on. Not all of it was on the bike though. The major part of a pro cyclists income was (and still is) provided not in the big races with their teams, but the smaller events to which they were individually contracted by their managers. They might race one day in Amsterdam, the next in Paris and the following day in Frankfurt. They had to drive themselves between races so took amphetamines to stay awake, then sleeping pills to get to sleep when they eventually got to bed. If they didn't like it they were told there were any number of up-and-coming riders who would willingly take their place. So a culture of drug acceptance was created, not just of cheating to win, but of survival.

I don't condone the taking of performance enhancing drugs, nor will I ever, but it seems it was the 'system' that was partly responsible for creating it in the first place, yet the 'system' condemns the riders when they are caught. At least the sport of cycling is trying to do something about the problem, which is more than can be said most other sports, who still have their heads stuck firmly in the sand. Witness the reaction when Gary Player had the audacity to suggest that some golfers took steroids to improve their game. The big money sports will never truly get to grips with the problem until they learn to risk losing the major sponsors that permeate their sports. Money talks I am afraid.

As an aside, I wonder how many of us would pass a drug/alcohol test when we got to work in the morning, or more particularly after lunch?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:56 AM

I have been telling you all along, you cannot climb those mountains on Lemonade.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 09:12 AM

It's true, drugs are everywhere in sport. The truth is that cycling is a lot more honest about it than many, many other sports. And, of course, it is possible to ride the Tour without drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM

Whole team Cofidis (captain: Chavanel) leaves the Tour after one cyclist found positive.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 08:47 PM

...and now Rasmussen, removed by his own team for deceptive practices
This leaves Contador leading....Discovery Channel with 2 of the 3 leaders...and 3 in the top 10.

Amazing and sad for cycling to have this much in one race.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:30 AM

Do you still believe that the great Lance was clean?, the chemicals Armstrong used would have helped Lance Percival [English comedian] to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:33 AM

I don't know whether Armstrong took chemicals. I do know he was the most drug tested athlete - in and out of competition - in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 06:45 AM

yawn yawn yaaaaaawwn has it finished yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM

I would bet that in any sport were size, strength, speed or endurance are needed to do well, there will be athletes taking drugs. Boxers who very suddenly increase in size are very suspicious. Professional wrestling - size and strength are needed. American football, where size, strength and speed are vital. Now, I'm not suggesting that everyone in those sports are on drugs, but I bet many are. And, I bet those sports aren't tested as stringently as cycling.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 09:15 AM

i like the cycling but I don't like the cheats, in any sport. Is like a chemist shop listening to it.

Rattle rattle

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 04:57 PM

Tom Simpson died on the tour through drug abuse in 1967, that is one hell of a long time ago,surely by now they should have had their sport in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:08 AM

A letter in to-days Irish Times asks, `Would it be alright to call the cyclists a load of dope peddlers`.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:39 PM

NOPE