The David Kelly Investigation

Subject: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 12:38 PM

Speaking as a North American, I don't think people here realize the seriousness of the David Kelly investigation, which, apart from the tragedy involved, has the potential to be a kind of British Watergate. Clearly the Blair government is already wounded by this, as is the BBC. I would be interested, as the enquiry continues, in what our British Mudcatters think. I confess that I find the whole thing infinitely sad and depressing, no one comes off well. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 12:41 PM

That is the scapegoat guy who committed suicide, right?

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 12:59 PM

The UK weapons expert who is reported to have done so, yes...


A

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 02:18 PM

The big difference from Watergate and similar American things is that the system here is better geared to close down the can of worms and clamp it shut.

I would anticipate that when the report comes out it will be written in such a way that everyone important can say that it exonerates them. And it will have neatly avoided exploring any really embarrassing or damaging stuff. There'll be a few relatively low level symbolic early retirements and departures to spend more time with their families. If all else fails there will be some convenient retirements on health grounds.

One thing, Tony Blair will never again be able to deploy his personal honesty as a trump card in a tricky situation - "Trust me, I'm a pretty straight kind of guy". And the irony is, as successful politicians go, he probably is. They always say that politicians in England can be divided into the bookies and the bishops, and he's always been a very much a bishop. Mind, bishops get a pretty low credibility quotient with the public these days.

When it comes to elections the strongest card Labour has, of course, is the Conservative party, who constitute a virtual cast-iron guarantee of a Labour victory at the next election. (And the other strtong card is the spectacle of Bush and his regime across the water.) Of course whether it'll still be Blair at the head is another matter.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST,leo condie somewhere else
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 02:25 PM

don't know where you got the idea that tony blair is a pretty straight guy...surely his calculated destruction of any left-wing aspects of what began as a totally left-wing party would have figured in the equation?

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 02:58 PM

Well, I think anyone who thought of him as a man of the left at any time would need their head examining. He's essentially a one-nation conservative. But that's what the Labour Party membership seem to have decided they wanted.

And the Labour Party as a totally left-wing party? Well, by the standards prevailing across the Atlantic I suppose that'd be true -   but in any normal political spectrum Labour has at most times had signifucant elements which are if anything right of centre. And that included some of the "founding fathers".

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 03:47 PM

BS(the thread, not the postings)

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 08:58 PM

I will come to your points, Peter T, but first McG: Blair is about as "one nation" as Thatcher was. (Thatcher was his first guest at No 10, of course.) He's as self-serving politician as I have ever seen, whereas John Major, though a Tory, was indeed a straight and decent guy.

Look at Blair's twisting and turning on hunting (after his TV promise to ban it). Or consider his inability to answer the simple question - put to him repeatedly before the last election - whether it was OK for the gap between rich and poor in the UK to be getting wider under Labour.

Recall the breathtaking deceit of the so-called "consultation" on clause 4 of the Labour Party constitution. Nearly 2,000 Labour Parties, branches and affiliates were asked to submit qualitative, completely uncodifiable proposals, and within two days of the closing date for responses, a new Clause 4 was issued. No-one ever reported back the nature of the responses, or their broad drift, nor gave any indication of the extent to which all or any responses had been taken into account in preparing the new clause. It was a crude fait accompli.

Remember the way his front-bench spokesman on education (Blunkett) said "Read my lips - no selective education" at the very time that Blair was choosing for his kids one of the most selective state (church-aided) schools in London - bypassing other catholic schools nearer his Islington home, one of which - St Richard of Chichester - closed as a result of his vote of no confidence.

Above all, remember his commitment not to support the US assault on Iraq without the "second resolution" - unless the resolution was thwarted only by unilateral and capricious action by France. (In the event, there was so little support that no such resolution was even tabled.)

But back to the thread. Don't be too quick to assume the BBC will be damaged by the inquiry, Peter T. As I said at the outset, including here at Mudcat, it may yet emerge that Kelly's pants were on fire. It is already clear that when he went before the select committee he could not bring himself to disclose the extent of his indescretions with two BBC reporters. My guess is that, as a man of some honour as he evidently was, he could not live with his economy with the truth.

But even after Kelly's suicide, Downing Street (the PM's office) never paused in its deceptions, one of Blair's two spokesmen describing Kelly as a "Walter Mitty" fantasist. When this was duly reported, the remark was at first flatly denied. When that didn't work, the PM's office had to come clean, but protested that the remark had been made in an "off the record" briefing to several journalists. So in Downing Street minds it had been a legitimate attempt to poison journalists against Kelly's legacy, and the press should have shown its gratitude for such a gossipy tit-bit by using only the vaguest allusions to a source.

Admittedly this cosy relationship with the press, in which any lie can be pedalled if it is merely "...according to one senior figure close to the prime minister," says as much about the UK press as about Blair & Co. Bravo the Independent and its deputy political editor Paul Waugh for breaking ranks and blowing Downing Street's cover. The so-called "lobby system" of off-the-record briefings is a charter for government by inuendo; never more so than by the present government.

(Waugh, incidentally, quoted me as saying Blair was "smarmy" as far back as 1995. In the cold light of day, and perhaps fearing for my position in the Labour Party, I subsequently sent in a letter retracting "smarmy" but standing by "sanctimonious" and several other adjectives. Somewhat to my amusement my letter appeared under the headline: Blair not smarmy shock!)

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 10:47 PM

Dead microbioligists

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST,John Gray / in Oz
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 11:28 PM

Speaking of our leaders and their credibility after the Iraq escapade.
As you are aware Australia was part of the "coalition of the willing" ( crikey - what genius thought that up ? )and now Prime Minister Howard is being referred to, both nationally and internationally, as Bonsai Howard. Apparently the Japanese first coined the term, not to be confused with Banzai, and it naturally means - small bush.
And that is how our leader is perceived, as an acolyte of George Bush.

JG/FME

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 08:58 AM

The first days of testimony in this are amazing. I confess I am not big on televised hearings, but it would have been worth it, if only for the political education. At the end of it, I hope someone publishes the testimony -- or is it on the Web somewhere. Talk about a political education (the darkest of Yes, Ministers.

What I find most interesting is the familiar strategy of ignoring the larger scale issues and focussing on what seems to me to be probably a single misstatement (Gilligan's remarks on his interview with Kelly today reinforce this) about who was directly responsible for "sexing up" the dossier. As if anyone needed to have a direct spoken order to please their masters. Virtually the entire intelligence community up in arms about the misuse of intelligence, and a complete skein of half-truths woven about the push towards war, none of this seems to matter.

You get a grim sense of how bureaucracies work, and the toxic nature of the relationships among the civil servants, the political level, and the press.

One wonders how far Lord Hutton will take his "brief".

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 09:31 AM

What I meant about Blair being relatively "straight" isn't that he isn't devious and self-serving and so forth, it's that anyone who didn't recognise those qualities in him must be living in cloud-cuckoo land, and in that sense what you see is what you get. It wasn't a grudging compliment, it was more of a backhanded insult.

I think he may be holed below the waterline. I can envisage that before this is through we will discover that Tonny and Cherie have decided the young Leo and the others need to spend a lot more quality time with their father...

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST,leo condie
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 09:39 AM

Thanks Fionn, that was what i had hoped to write before I realised that it's not exactly my forté to insult politicians and actually provide hard evidence. Seems we're pretty much in agreement anyway then, McGrath. Though I would never call Tony Blair straight when I could be calling him a sleazy little demon.

Incidentally, god I hate having the same name as a blairbaby.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Fiolar
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 09:53 AM

I'm afraid that I am getting a bit tired about all the coverage on TV and in the papers about the late Mr Kelly,and the many who slag off the Labour Party. Unless Mr Kelly was assaassinated in some dastardly secret service plot, I must assume the man went ahead and took his own life. Did he think for a moment of the pain and anguish this would bring on his family. God knows it's bad enough if a person dies naturally and as a former nurse I have had my share of grieving relatives to comfort. Regarding the fuss about the economy, I must admit that personally I think that life for a great number of people has never been better. For example single pensioners now get a £200.00 fuel allowance each year, cheap bus fares and clothes, food and other items can be had at a fraction of former prices providing one looks around. Give me a break.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 12:09 PM

Yeah well that's the way your owners want you. News overload. What's a thinking individual to do? The govt tit is flowing, so just leave me alone. So what if terrorists have seized the British govt, as long as that tit works and they don't rub my face in the tyranny which will lead the utter destruction of my family? The world is good. Give me a break.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 02:32 PM

True enough, killing yourself is a horrible thing to do to your family, but the anger they have a right to feel about that is part of what they have to deal with, in the context of knowing the man and the circumstances in ways which none of us can. It's not our business.

For the rest of us our anger should be directed at the people who contributed to driving a decent man to do something like that. People who feel a duty to blow the whistle when they believe that the organisation they are involved in is doing something wrong are rare and precious, and those who try to silence them are not either of those two things, and should be recognised as unfit to wield any kind of authority.

Here's a song I wrote about blowing the whistle, and I posted it on the Mudcat a couple of years ago:

Don't make waves, don't make waves,
Don't forget that you are slaves,
Keep your nose clean, go on tiptoes,
In the silence of the grave.
Don't you think of blowing the whistle,
Keep your eye upon the ball,
Keep your head down, mind your back,
And just remember one and all
It's a shame, it's a shame,
But it's down to what's his name,
You're a lonely soul surviving
In a dodgy kind of game,
And just think about the scandal
If it gets too hot to handle –
No the game's not worth the candle,
And you're really not to blame.

Modernise, privatise,
Keep your eyes upon the prize.
Hear them talk of consultation,
Hear them talk a load of lies.
You see people deep in need,
You see ignorance and greed,
You see all those smooth officials,
With an ego they must feed –
But don't you think of blowing the whistle...

Is it true or is it true?
Have I told you nothing new?
Do you ever stop to wonder
What they've got in store for you?
You might be working in the system.
Or surviving on the dole –
Either way you know, you're nothing
To the people in control.
When the bottom line is money
And the middle name is greed,
Why they'd thrown their mothers overboard
To give the sharks a feed.
So don't you think of blowing the whistle,
Keep your eye upon the ball,
Keep your head down, mind your back,
And just remember one and all
It's a shame, it's a shame,
But it's down to what's his name,
You're a lonely soul surviving
In a dodgy kind of game,
And just think about the scandal
If it gets too hot to handle –
No the game's not worth the candle,
And you're really not to blame.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 03:04 PM

For the benefit of our US friends, Tony Blairs rating with the British public is at at an all time low, every media poll has him sinking lower by the day.
According to these polls no one believes a word he says anymore.

He lied in his teeth about all aspects of why they went to war and the final nail in his coffin, is, along with his cronies, putting the pressure on David Kelly to such an extent that the poor man ended his life. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 03:24 PM

And in spite of that the likelihood of more people voting for the Conservative party than the Labour party at the next General Election is pretty remote.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 05:36 PM

When are people going to realise that there has never been a political system yet devised that will improve this world...
What we need is less organisation not more...The rot started when the first farmer planted the first seed..
As for the Kelly debauchle...Youve got a grubby little journalist thinking hes hit pay dirt ...A poor neurotic scientist on the brink...
A government doing what its supposed to do...control...
            God help us..

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:37 PM

McGrath...That was a fine song Im going to print it out and hang it on the wall to remind me of how I used to feel...
         Thanks   Alex

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 06:55 PM

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 07:00 PM

Sorry - Finger problem - I see the usual suspects are queing up to bash Blair or anything British.

Just remember - a tyrant has been disposed of, the US of A and British Army acted as the "Armed wing of Amnesty Internatinal".

Is that bad ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 07:03 PM

Youve got a grubby little journalist thinking he's hit pay dirt ...A poor neurotic scientist on the brink...

Or maybe a man desperate to get the truth out and a journalist doing his job, which in such a situation is to provide a mechanism for allowing him to do so.

It doesn't bear the hallmarks of Kelly being trapped into saying things he hadn't meant to say - Gilligan was not the only journalist to whom Kelly gave interviews.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 07:13 PM

I wasnt supporting the Blair government by what i said...I dont think we should take anyones motives at face value..Kelly by his words and his actions seemed to me highly "unstable",a prime target for vultures on both sides..

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 09:21 PM

Peter T, this is what you want: The Hutton Inquiry. By standards in the UK, where a culture of secrecy has been developed over decades by successive governments of all persuasions, even the documents disclosed already make astonishing reading.

So far the process sounds much more like a Congressional investigation than anything a UK government has ever contenanced. I share Ard Mhacha's reservations about Hutton himself, but if testimonies and documentary evidence continue to be published in such unprecedented detail, he's going to look pretty stupid if he attempts to sum it all up any way other than the way it is.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 11:20 AM

Thanks, Fionn, much appreciated. It is all pretty jaw-dropping. I can hardly wait until we hear from No.10's spinmeister.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 08:56 AM

McGrath, I agree the Labour Party will win the next election, but what do you expect when you have voters like Gareth with his "my country right or wrong" attitude. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 11:11 AM

Nice try Ard Mhacha, unfortunately your comments don't stand up to examination.

After all when I feel that my country is wrong I am critical.

Gareth

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 05:46 PM

End of week 1, and it is interesting that there is no consensus as to who ended up in worse shape.

(1) Andrew Gilligan is revealed to have been sloppy;

(2) David Kelly did believe that Andrew Campbell (or his office) interfered with the intelligence brief;

(3) The BBC seems to have put pressure on Susan Watts to corroborate Gilligan's story;

(4) The MODefence obviously put pressure on David Kelly, how much we are only beginning to learn;

(5) Kelly appears to have been as knowledgeable as anyone could possibly be, yet he seems to have been treated as some minor minion;

(6) It is about as obvious as it can be that the Iraq threat was negligible.

(7) The main issue is being lost in the focus on the 45 minutes business.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 07:20 PM

That's true enough Gareth. Whether that country be Wales or the UK. My party right or wrong? Closer, but that wouldn't be true either.

No, Labour winning the next election will be thanks prinarily to the folk memory of the Tory years, which will take a long time to go.

In fact I think it may never go, until the Tories wake up one day and realise that there's more room for them to the left of the ever right-moving Labour Party, and there's virtually no room to the right of it, and they reinvent themselves as the Progressive Party or something. And they still be Con merchants.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 03 - 07:55 PM

And the assumption that it was in fact suicide is no more than an assumption.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 01:25 PM

Suicide or not, the week did unearth enough to show that Kelly had dug himself into a hole. It must be plain to any disinterested observer that he was evasive in what he told the MoD about his contacts with Gilligan and Co, and in his evidence to the select committee.

I must admit that the BBC case is not as rock solid as I thought it was going to be, though Gilligan's sloppiness seems to have been confined to one "two-way" that he did from home at six in the morning, without script. He was noticeably more careful with subsequent (scripted) reports.

I'm now fascinated by Susan Watt's line. She went out of her way to be unsupportive of her BBC colleague Gilligan, saying that her tape-recording did not help him. Apart from the Sun and Times (both in the Murdoch stable and hysterically anti-BBC), most commentators seem to have reached an exactly opposite view of the tape. So have I (going by the transcript only, as the tape itself is not in the public domain).

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Aug 03 - 01:48 PM

Yes, it is getting a bit "Rashomon"-like. Possibly she has contempt for him as a "tabloid" reporter for the "new" BBC -- not really a "colleague".


yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 11:01 AM

Well, today's stunning revelation seems to have begun to clear some of the murk around David Kelly's motives, which never made any sense before; not that they are completely clear now, but it is clear he already felt responsible for one act of betrayal. He seems to have felt that he betrayed his Iraqi colleagues by assuring them that if they cooperated, Iraq would not be invaded, and had already threatened suicide -- "I would be found dead in the woods" if there was a war. I wonder if any of his Iraqi others were in fact killed, as he feared. Betrayal 1, followed by betrayal 2 -- presumed disloyalty to his "own side".

It all makes you sick to your stomach about the sadness of it. Poor bastard.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 02:00 PM

From way back at the beginning of the thread:

"The big difference from Watergate and similar American things is that the system here is better geared to close down the can of worms and clamp it shut.

I would anticipate that when the report comes out it will be written in such a way that everyone important can say that it exonerates them. And it will have neatly avoided exploring any really embarrassing or damaging stuff. There'll be a few relatively low level symbolic early retirements and departures to spend more time with their families. If all else fails there will be some convenient retirements on health grounds."

Actually, there is no true comparison between this and Watergate in the US. The closest comparison is between this and what became known as the Iran/Contra scandal. What is playing out on the US side is nothing new. Substitute "Iraq" and "Palestinian" for Iran, and "Latin American drug wars" for "Contras". See my most recent post to the OBIT Sergio Vieira de Mello thread here:

thread.cfm?threadid=62242&messages=13

No one from the Reagan administration was ever brought to justice (they were either acquitted, absolved of their culpability due to Reagan's popularity and the "heroic" spin and polish job executed to perfection for TV audiences by Oliver North, or pardoned, as John Poindexter was), and in fact, the primary players of the Reagan administration have been wholly reconstituted in the Bush administration.

When I use the word fundamentalist, I mean it in a broad political ideological sense, not exclusively a religious one. The right wing ideological true believers in the political sense are no more Christian than I am martian. However, they are masterful exploiters and manipulaters of the not very intelligent right wing Christian "true believer" fundamentalists. And that is why they have barely skipped a beat from Reagan to Bush II, despite the Clinton years aberration. They only need to appeal to two groups of voters: fundamentalist Christians, and greedy urban/suburbanites--those very dangerous (as Saul Alinsky called them) "have a little, want a little more" voters, who will vote to punish others (for various and sundry reasons--these are the sorts who signed petitions for the California recall, voted for Jesse Ventura or Arnold Schwarzennager (ie iconic celebrities), or who attempted to stop the ballot count in California by making a big media splash by insisting the yellow press given them all the "15 minutes of fame" sort of attention these types of people cravenly seek. They are election wreckers, a rather new sort of American phenomenon that the political right, beginning with Reagan, have become masters at exploiting. The media covers them because they are so "colorful" and extreme.

The political graft and corruption that we are seeing both sides the pond these days is always sleight of hand. Currently, the better manipulaters are amassed on the right end of the political spectrum, both sides the pond, regardless of the labels attached (ie Clinton Democrat, Blair Labourite, Republican, Tory, Social Democrat, etc) in any of the first and second world countries. Right or left, the politicians in Europe and the US are simply fighting over who gets the biggest piece of pie, not about the issues that matter to us "little people".

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 02:02 PM

Kelly foretold 'death in the woods' - ths Guardian story has links at the bottom to the whole shooting match, transcripts and all.

It is all pretty sickening. And the most sickening thing is how they are all waltzing around arguing about what are really trivial techicalities - such as whether the government employees in intelligence hyped up the threat in the dossier on direct orders from the government, or whether they provided what was required without needing to be directly told what to do.

What is crystal clear is that the case for going to war, as it was presented by Tony Blair and company, seriously mistated and exaggerated the facts. And I don't think there can be all that many people who genuinely believe he wasn't aware of that.

And this is a different question from whether there might have been a valid case for war, as the only way of eliminating a loathsome tyrant - because that wasn't the excuse for war which was presented to our representatives. The official line was that getting rid of Saddam was merely a welcome side-effect of getting rid of the "weapons of mass destruction". If he got rid of them himself, we were told, he would be welcome to stay in power, so far as the British Gvernment was concerned.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 02:53 PM

"...how they are all waltzing around arguing about what are really trivial techicalities - such as whether the government employees in intelligence hyped up the threat in the dossier on direct orders from the government, or whether they provided what was required without needing to be directly told what to do."

Which is how the Iran/Contra scoundrels were let off the hook. There was never any proof of direct orders coming from Reagan (though there was plenty of evidence which linked VP Bush to the Contras through CIA offices in El Salvador, that was effectively buried by Bush and the CIA). The only thing that prevented impeachment of both President Reagan and Vice President Bush, was the defense McGrath describes above. That was when Oliver North was told to put on his uniform, salute the Congressional committee, and fall on his sword, in order to derail the march to impeachment.

The thing is, Reagan really didn't know what was going on, just like Dumbya doesn't know what's going on. They are the puppets. The puppet master from 1980-1988 sat in the Office of the Vice President, until he could move into the bigger West Wing office in 1988. They got a little too arrogant and had to move offices in 1992, but as I said elsewhere, they didn't miss a beat between 1992 and 2000. In fact, what they managed to do was take over the other two branches of government, keep their boys in charge of the secret government (ie CIA, NSA, FBI, and their offshoots), and consolidate their economic and political clout for the inevitable end of the Clinton abberation.

If anything, they are even more arrogant this time around. And all the more dangerous for it, because of the blatant over-reach. But if the US voters don't stop them next November, it is going to be a setback for democracy around the world, not just in the US and the UK. Because if they maintain their political control in the US and the UK, which is as it stands now, they rule the world. Once they consolidate that political and economic power in the US, you don't think they'll let the UN, democratic humanitarianism, and the good of the planet stand in their way, do you?

Doesn't anyone know or remember who Arnie's "economic" adviser, George Schultz, is? He is the former Reagan/Bush cabinet member who left Bechtel (along with Caspar Weinberger) to do their "government service" stints.

Do any of you know who built Saudi Arabia? Bechtel.

I know, I know, the Republican right effectively worked their "liberals are traitors" propaganda magic by effectively denouncing any connecting of THOSE dots as hysterical conspiracy mongering a la "black helicopter" theories back in the day.

But guess what folks? Their propaganda machine is unequalled in modern times, except for maybe the Third Reich's propaganda machine. These guys are good. Very, very good.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 03:50 PM

I think Blair is a bit more aware of what goes on around him than Reagan ever was. Or very likely than the Bushbaby.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 04:08 PM

Agreed. But the electorate in the UK doesn't seem to be any more aware of these connections than the US electorate.

BTW, for those who might have missed it--Bechtel is currently exploring it's legal options over the non-competitive granting of Iraq contracts to their biggest competitor: Halliburton.

But on the ground, the reality is, Bechteliburton is the preferred contractor of the Republicat Party.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 04:12 AM

Ambulance paramedics that attended the scene say that the cut to Kellys wrist was very small and would have clotted up on its own, and not have been fatal, they also say there was very little blood at the scene.
Police refuse to reopen investigation, and verdict of suicide stands.

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Flash Company
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:37 AM

If Sir jOhn is found dead under the Humber Bridge, can I nominate Joe Offer to head the public enquiry? We may get closer to the truth!

FC

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:32 AM

There'll be a national day of Celebration

Subject: RE: The David Kelly Investigation
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:34 PM

All I can say is there was a lot of talk about a suicide but they aint found no smokin' gun.

I had three theories higher than suicide at the time.