BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges

Subject: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:03 AM

1. They are both fruits.
2. They both grow on trees.
3. They both come in several different varieties.
4. They are both roundish in shape.
5. They are both edible.
6. We drink their juice.
7. They are both tasty and nutritious.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Peg
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:24 AM

who said you couldn't compare them? They   simply aren't the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:29 AM

8. They are both coloured orange, except the apple
9. They both grow in the UK, except the orange
10. You can peel them both without a knife, except the apple
11. Both are good in pies, except the orange (and in some cases the apple)
12. You can't make jam out of either of them (this is back on track!)
13. If you want to block someone's exhaust pipe, neither is as good as a potato

Anyone got a #14? This is unlucky!

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:36 AM

1) technically the orange is a berry; the apple is a fruit.

2) The orange tree is a tender evergreen; the apple is a hardy deciduos tree.

3) so do dogs and cats...

4) so are basketballs

5) some people would disagree with you there...

6) not everyone.

7) a matter of opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:39 AM

8. false

9. false

10. false

11. matter of opinion.(orange chiffon pie is scrumptios!)

12. false

13. true!

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:44 AM

THis is silly.

The point of the expression is not that you cannot compare them, but that you can't derive mneaningful conclusions if you are comparing the attributes of things which are entirely different in their natures. For example, comparing the length of noses between Little Hawk and his dachsund will not tell you much because they are different species. You can still measure them, but so what?


A

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:11 AM

"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?"

"No, because you can't derive meaningful conclusions if you are comparing the attributes of things which are entirely different in their natures."

Sorry, MMario, I couldn't resist it!

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:12 AM

Whoops, I meant, sorry Amos. Now I have to apologise to MMario once more as well ...

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:31 AM

When I want to point out the fault of comparing two things which have nothing to do with each other, I say, That's comparing apples and insurance policies!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:37 AM

*grin* Beleive me - no apology for comparing me to Amos! (though no meaningful conclusions can be drawn since we are almost entirely diffenet in nature)

DMcG - there are quite a few people for whom the turnoff in poetry and flowery prose is (are?) the metaphors and comparisions because they ARE non-meaningful comparisions between dichotomous natures..

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: mooman
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:42 AM

To elaborate on MMario's post above, both are fruits but more specifically:

the orange is a hesperidium
the apple is a pome

....as if you wanted to know!

Peace

moo (annoying knowall botanist)

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 11:57 AM

Well, if you're talking poetry, of course, and spiritual stuff, and aesthetics, and literary swoops and baubles, why of course all bets are off!! Hearts don't care about the clarity of propositions!! LOL!!

"Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou doest endure far longer, by a factor of 29.2x10^5!
Thus are the dimensions of our mind
Rendered weak folly by the storms of a loving heart!"

Isaac Shakspere
1789

A

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:05 PM

I don't think I've ever seen apple marmalade anywhere. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:05 PM

Ha! An apple is not a fruit! It's a ... well, 'O'-level biology was a long time ago; but a blackberry is a drupe, I recall. A fruit is comprised of the seed-body, which grows after the seeds have been fertilised; the apple's flesh comes from the bit underneath the seed-body, which grows around it.

Of course you can compare unlike things: "apples are unlike oranges" is a comparison. "I could show you hills, in comparison with which you'd call that a valley." There is no requirement for the comparison to make sense!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:13 PM

pome: fleshy, indehiscent fruit derived from an inferior ovary that consists of a modified floral tube that surrounds a core (example, apple)

drupe: fleshy, indehiscent fruit with a stony endocarp (example, fruit pit) that surrounds a seed (example, peach)

berry: fleshy fruit that develops from one pistil with several seeds (example, tomato)

a blackberry is I believe a multiple drupe.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:14 PM

btw : hesperidium:A berry having a thickened leathery rind and juicy pulp divided into segments, as an orange or other citrus fruit.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: mooman
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:19 PM

Nope...an apple is most definitely a fruit!

It is technically an accessory fruit known as a pome comprising ovarian and non-ovarian hypanthium tissue.

The blackberry is technically an aggregate of drupelets that develop from the pistils of an apocarpous gynoecium!

Peace

moo (where's me anorak?)

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 12:22 PM

http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/~kenr/grocery/fleshyfruits.html

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:12 PM

It is just a silly figure of speech (we have the same in German though we can't compare the apple to the pear which doesn't make it any better) that should be used less often. What often is meant is 'you can't equate apples and oranges'. The expression is too often used by persons who don't like a comparison and are too lazy to argue why they don't like it.

Of course you can compare apples and oranges, it is only a question of the tertium comparationis (= the third part in a comparison), that is in which respect they are compared. The tertium comparationis may be useful (nourishment value; preservability) or less useful (reflectivity; nose lengths). In any such situation you should argue whether the tertium comparationis is useful or not and why you think so and not replace argumentation and thinking by a silly figure of speech.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:53 PM

Some of you have WAY too much time on your hands. This is beginning to look like a convention of people who can't get dates. (Date - fruit?) Then again, I must have too much time on MY hands if I sorted through these silly posts just to post one that is just as silly.

You can rhyme apple.

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:53 PM

well, I dont know about comparing apples and oranges, but some people round here are a touch over-educated. So apples aren't fruit,huh? So, how come I keep them in our fruit bowl? Explain that,eh, clever dick.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 02:54 PM

Greg - it is okay to keep them in the same fruit bowl, as long as they are wax.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:13 PM

EVERYONE who likes to debate and/or argue such stuff should become familar with Informal fallacies in order to avoid the worst errors ..in this case, especially the fallacy of equivocation and the fallacy of questionable analogy

knowing this stuff will not make you right in everything you say (you can still get your facts wrong), but it will help you understand what elements make your reasoning better or worse.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:27 PM

Bill,

didn't you mean to post these useful links to the 'death of an anit-abortionist' thread? They are even more needed there!

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:36 PM

Well, my philosophy is, someone has to wonder about these things. And it isn't that I have so much time on my hands, as much as it is that I DON'T have so much time on my hands, so I look for some simple means of diversion to relax my brain for a little while.

Anyhow, I've always heard people say, "that's like comparing apples to oranges." Okay. But when I actually thought about it, I figured that apples and oranges have as many similarities as differences.

Apples and woodchucks, on the other hand...

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:44 PM

Bill

Most excellent, most precious, most EXCellent links!! Oh, most valuable links!! Oh, bravo!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 03:56 PM

Kim, if you look hard enough you can find similarities in many things. The problem is you ALWAYS use one set of properties to justify an action on something that is NOT the same.

Dog crap and peanut butter are both brown in color and spreadable. Just be careful which one you put on toast.

Apples and oranges always remind me of the skit from Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the are trying to determine if they had captured a real witch.   Witches burn. So does wood. Wood floats. So do ducks. If she weighs less than a duck she must be a witch.

I guess it is interesting that analogy comes from the word "anal". Even more important than whether or not the analogy is appropriate, I think that culturally we need to recognize the meaning of the statement. Rather than take it literally, most people understand that someone is trying to say that the two items in question shouldn't be compared because of circumstances that make them different.

By the way Kim, I was only teasing about "too much time on our hands". I think it is clever to have these discussions and we end up learning something from them. Nothing is ever a waste of time. Except maybe watching "Gigili".

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:30 PM

I thought a pome was like

Some roses are red
Some violets are as well
I'm a politician
Waffling all to hell.

As for a drupe -- you call me that agin, buddy, and you an' me're gonna have to step outside.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 04:58 PM

The etymology of analogy/analogue has nothing to do with anal, Ron!! ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English analogie, from Old French, from Latin analogia, from Greek analogi, from analogos, proportionate. See analogous.

Whereas anal comes from the Latin word for ring, Middle English, from Latin anus, ring, anus.

Annular is germane to anus. Analogous is not.

A

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:06 PM

'course you can compere apples and oranges! Just the other night at the folk club where I was compere there was a band called apples and oranges.

Am I missing a pount here somewhere?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Ed.
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:08 PM

Brilliant links, Bill D. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:12 PM

Amos - I wasn't being serious! However, thank you for the brilliant example of anal!!!   :)

Just kidding!

Ron

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:32 PM

That's all right, Ron, sometimes I really DO have too much time on my hands. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:39 PM

Amos...Ed..thank you!, but you really ought to thank Prof. A.C. (Tony) Genova, who laid out logic and the informal fallacies for classes at my university many years ago. I'm not sure how many places still teach and clarify what they are about, but WE were expected to comprehend why they were important.

(and Wolfgang, I have been carefully avoiding that 'other' thread lately, I'm afraid I might get carried away..*grin*...feel free to quote me or the links!

(and...a search on "informal fallacies" at Google will get you a number of interpretations & explanations, some of which might have even more interesting examples!)

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 05:57 PM

Well, I thought this post had gone through, but apparently it was under a cloak of invisibility, so voila!:

Boy, ya'll sure are a picky bunch! Good thing they BOTH have to be picked to be enjoyed fully. And, we all know what good *pickers* ya'll are!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 06:21 PM

aha!, Kat...fallacy of equivocation! *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 06:49 PM

pluck away, Bill...LOL + **BG**

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 07:13 PM

I fear I am a gen-you-ine 'muddled plucker'

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Sep 03 - 10:30 PM

I have been told that the golden apples of Hesperides were really oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 04:05 AM

Slightly under-ripe, presumably, LadyJean?

So, are we saying that apples and oranges are chalk and cheese, and not two peas in a pod?

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:06 AM

Chalk and cheese both start with "ch" and are available in stick form. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: mooman
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:55 AM

Quite so LadyJean...which is where hesperidium comes from!

An elegant

Botanical
And mythological
Link
I think!

which is definitely not a pome.

Peace,

moo (now fully anoraked-up)

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:56 AM

"Chalk and cheese" is a consonant alliteration; "apples and oranges" is a dissonant alliteration.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 12:51 PM

WAAAAY too much time!!!

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:33 PM

But can you compare Apples and PCs?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 12:58 AM

Not of you don't want to embarass Intel...


A

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 01:05 PM

Apples tend to be more expensive than PC's...

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: smallpiper
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 07:49 PM

I say old chaps and chapesses, I do believe that "Oranges are not the only fruit" is a jolly good novel.

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 08:57 PM

Did you folks know that the strawberry is the only fruit with its seeds on the outside? Er,OK, I'm going....

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 10:01 PM

What the FLIP are we doin talkin about apples and ornagnes when we coudl be talking about blonds, brownettes and redheads? Or about which is better, Molson Canadian or Labatts Blue, eh? You people flippin AMAZE me! There are people in this town that aint got much of a life but they must be way ahead of youse eh?

i had a look at them logical prepositinos on that other sight and I would not waist my time on that stuff cos you wooukld have to be an idiot to take it seriously eh?

- BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 10:08 PM

I'm still following Bill's links. This one, Rush Limbaugh on global warming, is particularly interesting because it takes a dialogue and then inserts the logical fallacy right where the reader can follow the link to better understand it.

When I first started teaching high school I was amazed and astounded at the outrageous things I heard everyday. I wished I could tape the Phil Donohue Show (he was popular then) where the audience members stood up and expressed their views. Then I could stop the tape and examine what was said, not for the opinion, but for the logic, all the time pointing out logical fallacies in terms the students could understand. But I never got to teach logic. Today I guess you could use The Jerry Springer Show, provided the topic was appropriate for public discussion. ;-)

In a graduate class I came across some wonderful teaching materials, Harry Stottlemeir's (sp?) Discovery, in which various terms in philosophy, critical thinking and logic could be taught to FIRST GRADERS! Wonderful material.

If anyone knows of links to discussions like the one above where the dialogue is interrupted to point out an example of false logic. please let me know. (Let's not use Mudcat...be nice y'all.)

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 10:09 PM

LOL. Blind Drunk, we cross posted!

Subject: RE: BS: You CAN Compare Apples to Oranges
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 10:15 PM

Is that anything like cross-pollinated???