Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:42 PM

I think there's still reason to be skeptical. Anything a 19thc writer puts down a half century after the event is bound to be wonky!

As to the 5-line Highland Laddie:
Its pattern resembles "Billy Boy," another northeast England or Scots song that lightly appears in some literature about "chanteys."

The question, again, is whether screwmen actually sang that or if (as you suggest) Erskine tweaked it.

Unfortunately, I can't honestly rule out the former possibility. Whereas, I believe, the method of hauling topsail halyards virtual compels halyard chanties to standardize in 4 lines, cotton screwing work does not compel form to that degree.

My theory has been that screwmen of this era pushed/pulled, *without singing*, after each chorus. They didn't require a certain number of metrical beats (or a steady pulse). Erskine's 5 lines could "work" just as well.

It does break the pattern of what I've seen, but the sample size of "cotton screwing songs" (which is creating that "pattern") is small.

By the turn of the century, screwmen had evidently completely changed to singing different styles of song. In Natalie Burton's 1918 collection, the screwmen's song recently remembered by James Scott of Savannah took the form of an African American "hammering song" (my interpretation), e.g.

Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw it tight—
heh!

Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Wid all yo’ might—
Heh!

Then there's this...
https://youtu.be/bfXK47rT1jI?si=5lTfIL7SDYXPcYXM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 05:02 AM

Chris,
Charles Erskine was born 1822 in Roxbury, Mass. His death was reported in the Boston Globe on 21 December 1900. The ship CHARLES CAROLL (Erskine spelled it "Carol") was a cotton-carrying packet ship that certainly plied the Boston - New Orleans route at that time. There are even two photos of Erskine in his book, with attribution; it would be quite a ruse to make that up with such detail.

Yes, it's quite possible that Erskine made use of Nordhoff to "refresh" his memory of the songs he allegedly heard 50 years earlier. Lyrics are very similar. I see no reason, however, to doubt he had first-hand contact with cotton-screwing in New Orleans. Whether he actually heard those songs or pretended to, we'll never know. Yet one could play Devil's advocate and ask why Erskine would not have copied Nordhoff verbatim. Why mix things around? It looks to me more like using Nordhoff to fill in a vague memory, rather than making up something that never happened.

Erskine, he says, had no formal schooling, so there is something perhaps fishy going on, like he got some help.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 12:11 AM

Steve,
Additionally, for whatever it may be worth, I put Nordhoff's hearing of Fire Maringo in the autumn of 1848. Erskine's in autumn of 1845, Gosse in 1838.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: crism
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 10:12 PM

Thanks, Gibb! None of the biographical databases like VIAF or LoC have dates for Erskine… Literally nothing about him except authorship of Twenty Years. I hadn’t found his obit.

Erskine claims he learned his letters at sea; I assume his “correction” of “Highland Laddie” is hypercorrectness… which would make sense if he hadn’t actually heard the songs in use. But this is good information, and I’ll have to reconsider my hypothesis…

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: crism
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 10:24 PM

I don’t trust Erskine. There’s no evidence he even existed aside from the one book. His account of Mobile adds nothing to Nordhoff, and his rendering of “Highland Laddie” has five lines per verse, which no one who had actually worked at or even seen cotton-screwing would have reported. I think “Erskine” plagiarized Nordhoff and can be completely disregarded.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 03:28 AM

Many thanks, both of you.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:12 PM

Hi Jon, Gibb and anyone else with the type of knowledge I require. It would save me a lot of time if anyone knows the actual dates of Nordhoff's 9 years at sea. I could work it out easily if I knew when he was born. I've just finished reading the book posted by Jim Dixon back up the thread and I'd like to put dates to his various interesting voyages.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 05:29 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:49 PM

Steve, Nordhoff's bio is here:


https://sites.williams.edu/searchablesealit/n/nordhoff-charles-the-elder/

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:13 PM

"full um fote" = filled his fort.

The Florida reference is to the First Seminole War (1816-19) in Spanish West Florida. This seems to have become entangled with the Battle of New Orleans (1815) in which the American troops used cotton bales for defense against the British.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Nov 23 - 10:28 AM

Putnam's Monthly Advertiser (N.Y.C.) (Jan. 1, 1855):

Gen’el Jackson mighty man—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He fight on sea, and he fight on land—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!

Gen’el Jackson gain de day—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He gain de day in Floraday—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!

Gen'el Jackson fine de trail-
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He full um fote wid cotton bale-
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!

Sung while rowing. Evidently the source of the 1882 text above.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 11:42 PM

I think there's still reason to be skeptical. Anything a 19thc writer puts down a half century after the event is bound to be wonky!

As to the 5-line Highland Laddie:
Its pattern resembles "Billy Boy," another northeast England or Scots song that lightly appears in some literature about "chanteys."

The question, again, is whether screwmen actually sang that or if (as you suggest) Erskine tweaked it.

Unfortunately, I can't honestly rule out the former possibility. Whereas, I believe, the method of hauling topsail halyards virtual compels halyard chanties to standardize in 4 lines, cotton screwing work does not compel form to that degree.

My theory has been that screwmen of this era pushed/pulled, *without singing*, after each chorus. They didn't require a certain number of metrical beats (or a steady pulse). Erskine's 5 lines could "work" just as well.

It does break the pattern of what I've seen, but the sample size of "cotton screwing songs" (which is creating that "pattern") is small.

By the turn of the century, screwmen had evidently completely changed to singing different styles of song. In Natalie Burton's 1918 collection, the screwmen's song recently remembered by James Scott of Savannah took the form of an African American "hammering song" (my interpretation), e.g.

Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw it tight—
heh!

Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Screw di cott’n,
heh!
Wid all yo’ might—
Heh!

Then there's this...
https://youtu.be/bfXK47rT1jI?si=5lTfIL7SDYXPcYXM

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: crism
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 10:12 PM

Thanks, Gibb! None of the biographical databases like VIAF or LoC have dates for Erskine… Literally nothing about him except authorship of Twenty Years. I hadn’t found his obit.

Erskine claims he learned his letters at sea; I assume his “correction” of “Highland Laddie” is hypercorrectness… which would make sense if he hadn’t actually heard the songs in use. But this is good information, and I’ll have to reconsider my hypothesis…

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 05:02 AM

Chris,
Charles Erskine was born 1822 in Roxbury, Mass. His death was reported in the Boston Globe on 21 December 1900. The ship CHARLES CAROLL (Erskine spelled it "Carol") was a cotton-carrying packet ship that certainly plied the Boston - New Orleans route at that time. There are even two photos of Erskine in his book, with attribution; it would be quite a ruse to make that up with such detail.

Yes, it's quite possible that Erskine made use of Nordhoff to "refresh" his memory of the songs he allegedly heard 50 years earlier. Lyrics are very similar. I see no reason, however, to doubt he had first-hand contact with cotton-screwing in New Orleans. Whether he actually heard those songs or pretended to, we'll never know. Yet one could play Devil's advocate and ask why Erskine would not have copied Nordhoff verbatim. Why mix things around? It looks to me more like using Nordhoff to fill in a vague memory, rather than making up something that never happened.

Erskine, he says, had no formal schooling, so there is something perhaps fishy going on, like he got some help.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: crism
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 10:24 PM

I don’t trust Erskine. There’s no evidence he even existed aside from the one book. His account of Mobile adds nothing to Nordhoff, and his rendering of “Highland Laddie” has five lines per verse, which no one who had actually worked at or even seen cotton-screwing would have reported. I think “Erskine” plagiarized Nordhoff and can be completely disregarded.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 03:28 AM

Many thanks, both of you.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Nov 23 - 12:11 AM

Steve,
Additionally, for whatever it may be worth, I put Nordhoff's hearing of Fire Maringo in the autumn of 1848. Erskine's in autumn of 1845, Gosse in 1838.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:49 PM

Steve, Nordhoff's bio is here:


https://sites.williams.edu/searchablesealit/n/nordhoff-charles-the-elder/

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 06:12 PM

Hi Jon, Gibb and anyone else with the type of knowledge I require. It would save me a lot of time if anyone knows the actual dates of Nordhoff's 9 years at sea. I could work it out easily if I knew when he was born. I've just finished reading the book posted by Jim Dixon back up the thread and I'd like to put dates to his various interesting voyages.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 06:13 PM

"full um fote" = filled his fort.

The Florida reference is to the First Seminole War (1816-19) in Spanish West Florida. This seems to have become entangled with the Battle of New Orleans (1815) in which the American troops used cotton bales for defense against the British.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 05:29 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Nov 23 - 10:28 AM

Putnam's Monthly Advertiser (N.Y.C.) (Jan. 1, 1855):

Gen’el Jackson mighty man—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He fight on sea, and he fight on land—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!

Gen’el Jackson gain de day—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He gain de day in Floraday—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!

Gen'el Jackson fine de trail-
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He full um fote wid cotton bale-
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!

Sung while rowing. Evidently the source of the 1882 text above.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 11:55 PM

I don't know much about the theories of "schema," though it's something one of my colleagues, a music theorist, works on (I should have a conversation with him about it!), and I suspect it's something related to what I'm trying to articulate. Perhaps "schema" is better than what I've called "paradigm."

What I'm getting at, vaguely, is that there is (I believe) a meaning in these words (e.g. maringo) that is best understood in the context of (repeat) performance. Considering MUSIC and the act of performance are important to understanding their meaning and what they "are." I propose this as opposed to (or in addition to) an approach that favors (mostly) looking at words separated from performative context (etymology, cross-textual comparison, literary heritage).

I observe (maybe in error, but it's my perspective) that the discussions of songs have "too much" (scare quotes, to mark my opinionated view) emphasis on direct verbal text and conventional meanings and not enough attention to music. It is music, after all. Music has, arguably at least, a different way of communicating than spoken language. A different logic. Even Hugill, in a way, acknowledges that chanties have much in them that simply "sounds good" as opposed to being intended to convey the direct meaning of words. It's more of a ritualized speech.

When I think of "Shannydoh," "Sally Brown," and "Shallow Brown" -- and when I give voice to those names -- it is almost some kind of invocation. Sounding silly here, but it's like voicing the Name of God. It's quite possible I'm overlaying my own prejudice, including the influence of studying music in Islamic, Sikh, and Hindu traditions, where intoning the name(s) of the Divine vocally is a kind of spiritual mandate. But I feel, when singing the word "Shenandoah" or "Shallow Brown", that my brain lights up in a special way. I'm tapping into a meme or archetype that evokes all kinds of thoughts, taking my brain down a chain of semiotic connections. These terms aren't banal, they're deeply poetic. They tap into some deep well of meanings, even if I'm not sure what those meanings are. I expect the utterance of these words to evoke in listeners some thoughtful connection to experience, "heritage," history. They are "powerful," not ordinary. "Shenandoah/Shallow Brown/ Sally Brown, I long to hear you" is great, even MYSTICAL poetry to me. It's not sound to universalize my experience and to assume it's so for others, but in any case that's how I think of them.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 02:28 PM

Shenandoah, Superbly simple tune, used by Cyril Tawney for 'Haul away the dyso'. Often run through it on the concertina.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: John Minear
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 08:17 AM

Hi Lighter and Gibb. I am enjoying this discussion very much. Please keep it up. Living just over the hill (actually the Blue Ridge) from the Shenandoah Valley, and having loved the song for at least 60 years, I have some personal interest as well. It's good to see this kind of discussion taking place on Mudcat. - John Minear, Nelson County, VA

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 07:01 AM

Thanks, Gibb. I mentioned India because I was thinking as far afield as possible. It's hypothetically possible that a foreign "s" became :sh" in English, hence "Shenandoah," but I don't see that idea going anywhere.

The existence of both a mundane "Sally Brown" and an oddball "Shallow Brown" is interesting though.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 12:28 AM

My "Salambo" comes from Roger Abrahams (Deep the Water).

In North Indian languages, "s" often swaps with "sh". I don't know if that makes them allophones, or if it was a sound shift (older sh > newer s) or what. Not sure how that might be relevant, just responding to the prompt :)

I don't know anything formal about Caribbean. One anecdotal example that comes to mind is how Jamaicans say "Irish moss." They say "maash."
Also: d > g in "fiddle" > "figgle"; t > k in "little" > "likkle".

The "S- paradigm" I'm thinking about has three syllables. It could be proposed: Syllable 1 starts with s/sh (fricative), syllable 2 starts with n/l, syllable three is a stop (d/b?). Not trying to over-theorize it. But when I am producing (through singing) "Shannadoh", "Shallow Brown," etc., what's in my mind is a rough blurry category with these characteristics. It's like how "do re mi" can also be "mi fa sol" as a pattern. As an improvising musician, in my musical language, these two things are somewhat like "allophones" to me. John Blacking (Irish ethnomusicologist) wrote about such paradigms of verbal/musical expression in Venda people's (South Africa) music back in the 70s when the "transformational linguistics" stuff was popular.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 09:46 AM

Interesting train of thought, Gibb.

It *is* notable that Shannadore/ Shenandoah is in Virginia, and the wild Missouri isn't.

And neither place is a likely chantey reference, particularly in the same framework.

As for "Salambo" (with one more "m," the title of Flaubert's 1862 novel), it seems to me that if "Fire maringo," etc., could be the result of mishearing something foreign or creole, "Salambo" could equally be an attempted rationalization of "Shenandoah," presumably overheard from a faraway deck. To go further out on a limb, "Salambo" might be further rationalization by a too-clever editor (not like us!) under the influence of Flaubert.

The spelling "Salambo" might thus represent an actually sung "Sallamo," which is a lot closer to "Shenandoah."

[CAUTION: OTHERS MAY WISH TO TUNE OUT HERE.] What's the status in the West Indies (or , e.g., India ) of the voiceless post-alveolar fricative? Maybe "sh" automatically becomes "s."

Compare the difficulty American Southerners (white, black, and others) frequently have with the clusters {shl} and {shr}. Education level doesn't often matter. It was an everyday occurrence decades ago to hear the name of the late lamented Schlitz Beer enunciated as "Slits." "Shrimp" is still likely to realuze as "srimp." The exotically named, Texas-based Schlotzky's restaurant chain is almost "Slotsky's."

[YOU CAN COME BACK NOW.]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:28 AM

>> Am intrigued by your ref to "Shenandoah." There's that one text that got transcribed as "Oceanida." But you seem to have something else in mind.<<

Very briefly, my hypothesis is that "Shenandoah" is a rationalization of some "S-" word/phrase, perhaps of African derivation. I don't offer any idea of what that word was "originally," as I don't think it matters. It's some paradigm filled with all the variations we see like "Shannydo" and "Salambo" and "Oceanida [Oh shanida] and "Seven Long Years" etc. and perhaps expanding to include "Shallow Brown" and even "Sally Brown" in its orbit. I hypothesize that whatever "S-" is, it's a named person, not a place or object. I think it's possible to analyze the evidence —though admittedly the data are less than desired— to argue that people hearing "S-" rendered it however it struck them phonetically, until (and also after) some writer decided to rationalize it as "Shenandoah." I think we can argue further that later writers to mention the song picked up the "Shenandoah" that had been put on the table, and they further wove narratives about the song to confirm 'Shenadoah" (as river or valley or Indian chief).

Sorry I don't have the ability to present and analyze all the data now/here.

I also have a weaker hypothesis that "maringo" belongs to a "ranzo" / "ringo" "R-" thing.

I roughly locate the "S -" thing around a Caribbean epicenter and the "R-" thing on the Mississippi / Ohio rivers.

There's an "H-" thing, too, "hilo" and such, coming out of the inland U.S.

Yes, this is all very fuzzy. But I think of these text forms as fuzzy places where the mind goes in the *process* of creating chanties in context -- the process of tapping into paradigms that make up a deep structure from which emerges the surface structures of improvised creation. That's why I personally care little about pinning down the original or "actual" words.

This all sounds very pretentious as I've typed it, but it's a complicated idea and to put it more simply and elegantly will take too much time, so I'm sorry. Gotta get back to working on my book about outcaste musicals in Punjab :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:25 AM

> as I believe may have been the case with "Shenandoah"

And a basilectal form of some other word might have resulted in both "maringo" and "my kingdom."

Don't know what, though. Just sayin'. ("Mandingo," no way!)

Am intrigued by your ref to "Shenandoah." There's that one text that got transcribed as "Oceanida." But you seem to have something else in mind.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:33 PM

Yes, "filled him fort."

The "whaw my kingdom" rendering appears in a few publications (I don't remember the specifics offhand). It's tantalizing to think it might provide insight to an accessible "actual" meaning of "maringo," but I favor the hypothesis that the writer was attempting to rationalize "maringo" into something he could understand (as I believe may have been the case with "Shenandoah").

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:20 AM

Hi, Gibb. There's no reason to think otherwise.

There may have been no column space in 1882 for the third stanza:

Gen'el Jackson fine de trail ,
Whaw , my kingdom, fire away,
He full um fote wid cotton bale ,
Whaw my kingdom, fire away.

My best guess is that "full um fote" means "filled his fort."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 01:40 AM

Lighter,

That Detroit newspaper quote looks perhaps cribbed from this 1855 article:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Putnam_s_Monthly/MFYAAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 May 20 - 09:33 PM

Yes, like Martin Ryan - without anything like the knowledge - I couldn't think of any other "vocable" similar to the "M" word in any Irish song, of whatever origin. I suspect that the original claim arose from hurried wishful thinking and the conviction that no-one would bother to check. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 20 - 06:14 PM

Thanks for that. i knew I'd heard the song in question, decades ago, but just couldn't recall what it was. Absolutely it was "The Ballynure Ballad."

That unique appearance, however, doesn't make "marengo" a common term in Irish songs. In fact, far from it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:37 PM

To complete the exchange between Jeri and Malcolm Douglas back in September, 2003, the song in question is a variant of "The Ballynure Ballad". In the version collected by Herbert Hughes, first decade of twentieth century I think, the singer
"Heard a wee lad behind a ditch", not a lassie in the shade. And the "quaint word" in this version goes,
"With a ma-ring-do-a-day,
Ma-ring-a-do-a-daddy-o".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:39 PM

General Andrew Jackson seized Pensacola, Fla., from the Spanish in 1818.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:27 PM

Detroit Free Press (Nov. 5, 1882), p. 9: “The Songs of Slavery…A curious song of a past day:

Gen’el Jackson mighty man—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He fight on sea, and he fight on land—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!

Gen’el Jackson gain de day—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!
He gain de day in Floriday—
Whaw, my kingdom, fire away!”

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 09:04 AM

Q-

There certainly are all the elements identified here for a Grand Marengo Festival. I'd be happy to help if you agree to chair the committee.

I'd also like to have a slice of Lemon Marengo Pie.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:53 PM

Should be a Marengo Day.

Battle of Marengo fought June 14, 1800. Napoleon against Austrians, Italy.
The song stems from this battle near Marengo, Italy, also some of the towns (Marengo also is a surname).

Marengo, Illinois- don't know month or day, but dates from 1835.
Marengo, Iowa, August, 1845
Marengo, Ohio
Marengo, Wisconsin
Marengo, Illinois
Marengo, Louisiana
Marengo, Saskatchewan- date?
Marengo County, Alabama
Marengo Cave, Indiana
Marengo, Italy

Lyr. Add: Marengo, Sakatchewan
By Jeremy Fisher.

Here I am in Marengo, Saskatchewan,
The world looks big from here you know,
And that's what I want.

One pool, one pump and a cheap hotel
Are the only landmarks that I can tell in Marengo
At the centre of town.

The kids in the park stop to shoot the breeze
They're gettin' out of this town before they get too deep
Down in Marengo, Saskatchewan.

I talked to some folks in the bar
They said not many people even come this far
Just for God's sake Saskatchewan.

She keeps puttin' her coins in the slot
And her old man don't seem to care a hell of a lot
You know the straight grain on the elevator is set to fall
And in the big city they don't talk about a prairie town too much
If they talk about it at all.

I fell asleep down in Marengo, Saskatchewan
The stars look big from here you know
So you can tell dear Marengo
I wish her well.

Marengo Resorts, southern Europe.
Marengo Mining, Australia, Papua-New Guinea

Chicken a la Marengo.

Marengo, the horse Napoleon rode at Waterloo and previous battles.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:39 PM

We've really reached the point in this thread where access to a "Tardis" might provide clarification, or maybe just a lot of work in a dark dingy hull where the job at hand was "screwing cotton."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:33 PM

"Fire Marengo" is the song for 24 November on Jon Boden's A Folk Song a Day.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 09:02 PM

Gibb-

"Fire" does imply action, as in artillery, and I certainly have a firm concept that when the cotton screwing gang were ramming a bale home within a tier of bales it was somewhat analogous to what an artillery team would have been doing when they were ramming a ball into a cannon.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that "Maringo" was a reference to a popular Mexican War hero, especially when versions of the song were transcribed before the Mexican War.

Somewhere in the back of my mind I recall that one of the prominent West African tribes, Liberians, were the "Mandingos." That might also be the source of "maringo." "Maringo is actually quite a common West African as well as East African name.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 07:50 PM

If gunfire is meant, why not a reference to the newsworthy Battle of Marengo in 1800? It was a big win for Napoleon.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:09 PM

Charley--

Nor am I convinced! However, no one yet has explained "maringo" or "the ringo" (or "my kingdom"!), and I think the coincidences are striking.

Why do you think the cotton-stowers would not be influenced by a popular song? (Mind, there were supposed to have been numerous songs eulogizing Ringgold, not just this one.) Given that the other songs from that area and time period eulogized, first, General Jackson (Battle of New Orleans) and then --on that model?-- Mexican-American War characters Santa Anna & General Taylor, along with "the Plains of Mexico," the precedent is there. And given that the "fire away" part has also not been explained in relation to cotton-screwing, one must admit that the "fire away" in the song I've cited --related to Ringgold's profession-- is conspicuous. (Were Ringgold's artillery advancements known before the Mex-Am War?)

As I said, I too am bothered by the alleged hearing by Gosse of "fire the ringo" in 1838 (i.e. before Ringgold's death in 1846). However, to play Devil's Advocate: Gosse's text was not *published* until 1859, as were the other references to ma/ringo not appearing until after '46.

In the least, this discussion might suggest that the "fire away" chorus originally had something to do with artillery fire.

Subject: Lyr Add: FIRE MARINGO (from Nordhoff, 1866)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 06:50 PM

From Nine Years a Sailor by Charles Nordhoff (Cincinnati: Moore, Wilstach & Baldwin, 1857), page 42:

Lift him up and carry him along.
  Fire, maringo, fire away.
Put him down where he belongs.
  Fire, maringo, fire away.
Ease him down and let him lay.
  Fire, maringo, fire away.
Screw him in, and there he'll stay.
  Fire, maringo, fire away.
Stow him in his hole below.
  Fire, maringo, fire away.
Say he must, and then he'll go.
  Fire, maringo, fire away.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Dead Horse
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 08:37 AM

An idea here,
Marin is Johnny Crapoo for 'sailor', non?
So could it be "Marin, go fire him away"?
This shanty certainly appears to me to be of Gulf Port origin with no sign of any Irish influence whatever.
Not that it matters to me at all, I just sing 'em, I dont dissect 'em. :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 07:59 AM

Gibb-

An interesting historical note with regard to Ringgold but I'm not convinced that cotton-screwers would have picked up the reference from a popular song, and the earlier references to "Fire Maringo" remain unsettling.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fire Maringo / Fire Marengo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 03:07 PM

Not much in the Traditional Ballad Index. Here's their entry:

Fire, Maringo

DESCRIPTION: Shanty. "Lift him up and carry him along, Fire maringo, fire away. Put him down where he belongs, Fire maringo, fire away"
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1884 (Charles Nordhoff's _The Merchant Vessel, a Sailor Boy's Voyages_ 1884)
KEYWORDS: shanty worksong
FOUND IN: US
REFERENCES (2 citations):
Hugill, p. 16. "Fire, Maringo" (1 text, quoting Nordhoff's _The Merchant Vessel_)
DT, FIRMRING
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Fire, Marengo
Notes: Some dispute on the origin; Hugill says that Doerflinger mentions this as being of Negro origin (but I couldn't find any mention of it in Shantymen and Shantyboys [nor could I - RBW]); however, Hugill himself thinks it is Irish, citing the use of the word "maringo" which he says is found is many Irish folk-songs. - SL
File: Hugi016

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I found nothing under Marengo or Maringo in the Roud Index.

Subject: ADD Version Fire Away (Fire Maringo)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 01:45 PM

I've a new (crackpot?) "theory" about "Maringo." Could it be that the song was one of a few that, at least after 1846, eulogized the US army artillery officer Samuel Ringgold? He died that year whilst serving with General Taylor's forces in the Mexican-American War in the Battle of Palo Alto, on the Rio Grande. The time period, events, geography, and characters all seem to come together with what was popular in other songs of cotton-screwers and early chanties.

And here is a song:

///
The following song, published in several of the newspapers before the recent events on the Rio Grande, will be read or sung with a melancholy interest—a just tribute to the gallant artillerists, and to their lamented leader.

[From the Boston Daily Times.]

"FIRE AWAY."
THE SONG OF RINGGOLD's ARTILLERISTS.

The Mexican bandits
    Have crossed to our shore,
Our soil has been dyed
    With our countrymen's gore;
The murderer's triumph
    Was their's for a day:—
Our triumph is coming—
So fire—fire away!
Fire away!

Be steady—be ready—
    And firm every hand—
Pour your shot like a storm
    On the murderous band.
On their flanks, on their centre,
Our batteries play—
    And we sweep them like chaff,
    As we fire—fire away!
             Fire away!

Lo! the smoke-wreaths' uprising!
    The belching flames tear
Wide gaps through the curtain,
    Revealing despair.
Torn flutters their banner—
    No oriflamme gay:
They are wavering—sinking—
So fire—fire away!
Fire away!

'Tis over—the thunders
    Have died on the gale—
Of the wounded and vanquished
    Hark ! hark to the wail!
Long the foreign invader
    Shall mourn for the day,
When Ringgold was summoned
To fire—fire away !
Fire away!
////

More on Ringgold here.

He died May 11, 1846. Eulogies all over the country gave a significant boost to the morale of the West Point cadre. Ballads, stage plays, poetry, and songs were all made in his honor.

The only problem I see with this theory is that in Gosse's 1859 reference to the cotton song "fire the ringo", he claims to have heard it in 1838.