BS: Opt out of phone solicitation

Subject: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 03:02 AM

Here in the good ol' U.S. of A. the Federal Trade Commision (FTC) set up a hotline phone number. Which was not offered or advertised via television, where I first heard about all of this. Find the number, and call it from your home phone, and leave your telephone # to join the ranks (some 50 million) of those who wished to be removed from the lists that telemarketeers use to make their calls. There was a deadline, according to the news casts, anyone wishing to be a part of the opt out list had to register their # by a certain date. After that you were out of luck. It was to take effect by October 1st but has run into some interference by certain federal judges.

Let's back up a minute. 50 "million" people say "no" to being bothered by telemarketeering intrusions and two federal judges are "not" interested in honoring those requests??? Scuse me but I thought we were living in a place where democracy meant the will of the people was the law of the land. 50 million stood up to be counted and this is the treatment they receive? No wonder this country can't get it's foot in stirrups of democratic rule when it doesn't even pay attention to those who participate in the process. This stinks of special interest promises and pocket lining.

An interesting aside is that "politicians and charities" are still allowed to call. Two of the most crooked money raising factions have been given a green light to continue to annoy me via my phone! If had my druthers, "nobody" would be allowed to call.

No wonder there are so few people who vote in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 05:33 AM

I've been listening to the pros and cons of this on NPR recently, Reggie. I am of two minds on it. On one hand I understand people wanting to be left alone. On the other, I think of the millions ( I am sure it would equal 50 million or more, many of them single moms, differently-abled, etc.) who would quickly become unemployed if they lost their telemarketing jobs AND there is nothing to keep one from using caller-ID, an answering machine, and/or just NOT answering the phone, to opt out on one's own and not expect the government to be a big brother about it. On the other hand, I did sign up for the state opt-out program here as soon as I heard about it.:-) Though, with an unlisted/non-published phont, plus those measures listed above, I've never been much bothered. I don't see them as much worse than tev or radio ads. We, each of us, always have the option to turn off the phone, tv, radio, etc.

kat

I DO wish people in this country would get as passionate about VOTING!

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 07:56 AM

It IS different, kat. Television, radio, newspapers, magazines, billboards,etc are public. My phone is private. I don't believe it should be necessary to spend extra money on caller ID. The answering machine works except when I'm expecting a call and drop what I'm doing and run from outside (or the friggin' shower) to find it's a call I don't want anyway.

There is, in the US, a form of 'do not call' already in place. You can tell the telemarketer to remove you from the company's call list and they're required by law to do so. I generally don't bother with this unless a company starts driving me nuts - I think I've only asked twice. One was AT&T after they'd called me twice a week for about a month when I switched long distance services. They haven't called since.

"Take me off your list" does NOT work with the newest thing: playing a recorded message. They don't have to pay people to call so no jobs are involved, however there's no guilt associated with hanging up on a recording.

Reggie, I'm with ya. The free speech argument is blatantly bogus. If you can have someone arrested for tresspassing on you property if they solicit door-to-door, why should telephones not be subject to the control of the people who own them?

We are turning into Ferengi^[1]. BAH!

Perhaps they'd like to rename the list of more than 50 million to the "Call Us And We'll Never Do Business With You Again, Asswipe"^[2] list.

^[1] For those who are unfamiliar with Star Trek references, the Ferengi live in a society where capitalism is their religion and the foundation of their government as well as an economic system.

^[2] Why would these guys want to annoy people on behalf of their business? Why do they send spam when everybody hates spam? I can't understand how pissing people off and alienating them could possibly be good advertising.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Deckman
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 09:17 AM

Reggie and Jeri: I'm with you both 100%! I don't give a diddly damn about the so called "rights" of telemarketers. It's my phone, my house, my money and my privacy. Period ... the end!

"Bride Judy" came home from work yesterday with new information. If, when a telemarketer calls, you just push the "pound button" over and over. It causes a LOUD dinging in their ears and THEY hang up. I tried it and it certainly is annoying to hear. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 10:01 AM

about telemarketer's "freedom of speech"... They would get the point quite well if I exercised my right to play the bagpipes on their front lawn.

hmmm...the pound sign, huh? *grin*

now, about the death penalty for spammers....naawww, that's too easy. (I had 55 this morning)

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 10:17 AM

Freedom of speech must surely include freedom from enforced speech. Nothing lis less free than listening to communication you don't wish to receive as one glance at any cocktail party will show you. It is a form of tyranny writ tiny.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 10:38 AM

Since the US public have been duped into ignoring their inherited rights to privacy - gotten in Enlgland long before the USA came to be .. Threshold - not only have the peeping Toms had their day - Bill Clinton and his hussies, now we have the eavesdropping turds to reckon with.

They are free to bug your personal calls, they are free to call you at 3 am to sell you subscriptions to the retired police men's golf outing, they are legaly garaunteed by a 'right to free speech' unrestrained acess to your home ...

If they got into your backyard and used a loud hailer then it would have the VERY SAME LEGAL basis.

It is time for the people of the USA to remind these dickheaded lawyers and judges that there is a line they dare not cross ..

our front door threshold

as established by a bloody revolution once and might need again to be engaged to drive home the facts of life...

It is they who are breaking the Law not the public, it is they who deny you the opportunity to call them by electronicaly hiding their telephone number - thereby denying me the right to exercise my liberty to call them with a digusting phone call -, it is they who after invading my home insult and abuse me and my family with lude and in foul language.

It is they who must be restrained, in the interests of public order and the keeping of the peace - to which may I remind you the public reader - the Judiciary are sworn.

Any volunteers for Denver -- oh and bring a pickaxe handle!

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 12:12 PM

Bob, I long ago quit blaming the person on the phone for the phenomenon of telemarketing. They're folks earning very little money who have others monitoring their phone calls and saying stuff like "You gave up too quickly. When they say they're not interested, ask them if they don't care about saving money. Remind them that the first 3 months are FREE, yada, yada." It's the phenomenon I despise, not the human on the end of the phone.

I HAVE however gotten to the point where I've said (as pleasantly as possible) "I think you should give up now and say goodbye" or "I'm going to hang up now - bye-bye." and then hung up.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 01:20 PM

Well I hate telemarketers too...and I hate how they call ya when you're doing something...why couldn't they call when you're not home? ;)

But I do know that they are just folks like you and me trying to pay their bills and feed their families....they tend to only go to telemarketing cause those jobs have a very high turnover rate...and they can't find jobs elsewhere...why go to McDonald's when youre unemployment check is bigger than any McDonald's check you'll ever see? Also many of these people have degrees and certifications....but with a flooded market...there is nothing for them right now...so they go to things like telemarketing or other call centers....Do not ever believe that they enjoy calling you up and getting cursed at, hung up on, verbally abused, and threatened...Do not believe that they enjoy the stress of calling each prospective customer as they try to reach a quota so they can get some food and keep a roof over their heads.

As an aside...lol I did Level Three tech support for MSN (We called it the MSN Consumer Advocate Group) for almost a year and a half before we lost the contract (the bastards moved north of the border...it's cheaper).   But anyways part of the job was to call customer's back to give them updates and make sure their connection or whatever was wrong is working again...sometimes we were mistaken to be telemarketers and they would go sorry we're not interested and hang up on us....lol...we would go great youre not interested in finding out if your connection or email has been fixed then screw you...and we would close the ticket...lol

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 06:45 AM

The problem is, apparently, that law was flawed. Blame the politicians, not the judge.

Some years ago, I had this dating service calling me over and over.Finally, one of the women got personal and asked if I was seeing anyone. I said "Yes I am." she said, "Is it serious"? I said "It will be if her husband finds out."
She said "Oh dear...oh my.." never called again.

I realize that some people could lose their jobs, but their lack of marketable skills is not a good excuse for invading my privacy.
My answering machine has the following message;

"Hello, if I owe you money, press one. If you are selling something, press two. If you are collecting money for the republican party, hang up now to avoid being severely taunted. However, if this is a call you think I really want to receive, call my cell phone number 207.....(I seldom have it on.)
Most of the people I care about know that I'm probably lurking and they wait for the message to end. The rest can bugger off.
I get very few bothersome calls. I think the word gets around.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Tig
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 10:38 AM

Don't know about in the States but Firecat has just got a job in a call centre so she has some money to live on whilst looking for something better.

In her 'trial' half hour she got told to p*** off five times and f*** off three times. A week into it she has lost count of the number of times she's been sworn at. She doesn't mind people saying they are not interested immediately, hanging up after the first sentence or even politely telling her what they think of her - but she does mind the swearing.

Even if you are sick to death of being cold called - NTL have coldcalled me four times this week alone! - PLEASE remember it is a human being (probably quite a young one as they can work there from 16 in this country) and they are only doing their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 02:13 PM

This opt out system ought to be made available in UK.It staggers me just how many times a day my phone rings and then they hang up as soon as the answer phone cuts in.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 02:29 PM

To Tig, Yes, I can understand your request to not swear at them. But, you lost me when you said that they are "only doing their job." That's accurate ONLY if you define "their job" as ANNOYING ME. When they do that, then I am only "doing my job" of telling them off. respectfully, bob

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:01 PM

Hmmmm...no compassion, eh? Kendall, I love your answering machine message!

Your phrase their lack of marketable skills makes me wonder at your judgement, though. They may be single mothers, quite young, who have not had the money or time to go to college, etc. to improve their skills. And, remember, they could be single moms for many reasons, not just through carelessness.

They may be a person with a physical handicap which keeps them from other types of jobs which they may have skills for...

finally, like a lot of other people in our country and elsewhere, it may be the only "decent," i.e. NOT on their feet slinging hash at McD's, job available to them.

Also, some people really love being telemarketers. They are good at their job and enjoy it. THOSE types will be good listeners and really hear what a person is saying on the other end of the phone.

I still say a person can screen their calls, quite easily, using an answering machine and/or caller ID. OR, gawd forbid, turn their phones off, go digital and not give the number out to many, etc. If phones have become too intrusive in our lives, it is because we've allowed it. Each one of has the freedom to turn it off, not answer, get a private number, etc.

I know this is not a popular view, but i think it is as important to try to understand the teleworker's point of view, as it is the pay attention to the opt-out numbers.

Tig, good luck to Firecat!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:03 PM

Its the overseas call centres that annoy me as they come up "number unavailable" on caller id so I can't block the buggers.

I filter everything through the answer phone and have only seriously lost my temper once, when somebody hired by the TV licensing authority insisted that I had to buy a license. They didn't seem to understand that the license is only required by people who have televisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Firecat
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:28 PM

As Mum said, I do work in a call centre. The reason you get called is NOT to try and deliberately annoy people, and I aim that specifically at Deckman, but purely because the number is dialled by computers.

In the UK, if a person asks me to remove them from the list, I tell them about a thing called the Telephone Prefernce Service. Once the person has registered with the TPS, their telephone number is automatically removed from all databases.

What Mum DIDN'T tell you is that several times, I have left work on the verge of tears because people tend to think that it is their right to be able to verbally abuse people like me. I have actually asked several of my colleagues at the call centre and they ALL get verbally abused.

PLEASE remember that a fair few of us would much rather not have to do this job, but it pays. We do NOT mean to annoy people, but people mostly are quite abrupt, and as I said, some think it is their right to abuse us.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:59 PM

Well, I guess that for the second time this week, the courts have outlawed the U.S. "Do Not Call" list. Is there a way to contact the marketing associations that won this lawsuit, and flood them with requests that we not be called?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 05:18 PM

" some think it is their right to abuse us"

And why isn't it... You're an invasion into a persons private space... If you walked into my home unbidden, you'd get a lot more abuse than a few harsh words...

The abuse is part of what you're getting paid to endure... (I know... I've done it... it was a necessary evil to make rent.. and I still feel dirty thinking about it... if I ever get that bad off again, I'll whole instead!)

Be thankful you've never called my chum... He talks very quiet to cold-callers until he hears them turn the phone up on their end, and then he blows his wife's "rape" whistle as loud as he can into the phone! Needless to say, very few ever call more than once...

On the other side... you whiners "It's MY money" and "Why should I have to..." gotta give me a frigg'n break... Caller ID is pennies a day... and so what if they come up "Unknown"... so DON'T answer it if ya don't recognize the number... how hard a concept is that???

I mean, you filter spam email addys right? And you use pay sites on the net when you want no adds but quality right? You get flyers and adverts in the mail box right?

Your phone, your door, your computer, your mailbox are gateways to the outside world... It's your responsibility to filter it at your end...

And the "democracy' angle... ummm... how many people are in the US? And even if they did get 50 million sigs... Cold calling MUST work on some level, otherwise these companies wouldn't still be paying all these people to do it! There's yer democracy!

I want a phone I can program... Numbers I add to it get automatically 'in' and make the phone ring... I MIGHT even answer it... (That's a sub-rant.. where is it written that you HAVE to answer the phone just because it rings?????) anyone else goes instantly to a voice mail server where they can leave a message and maybe I'll get back to them when I check...

I also want tech to keep those pair if young guys in their short white sleeves and leather bound mind control devices off my porch... If I see 'em there as I'm opening the door, I say "No thanks" and close the door before they can get a word out...

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: kendall
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 08:20 PM

Kat, I did not mean to imply that these people are somehow sub standard, I simply stated a fact. I don't care why they are doing this work. It was not an indictment or a judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 08:40 PM

The "right to privacy" is a nebulous concept at best.

Plenty of people no doubt think it their "right" to have a quiet drink in a bar without some geezer bellowing Irish folksongs in their ear.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 08:52 PM

I hate the whole phenomenon. I get angry about it. The person who calls me is NOT, however, the person I'm mad at. They're not responsible, and if it's not them calling, it will be someone else. If you yell at the person who calls you, you're just abusing a convenient victim because you think your anger justifies it. The system that makes telemarketing acceptable is what deserves the anger, in my opinion.

The system doesn't care, but you probably WILL be able to hurt the kid on the phone even though. Yelling at the person doesn't do any good, and it's a bit scary to think some people might actually feel better after doing so. Perhaps it would be easier to get a dog so you could kick it. The dog would be available when you're put on hold for long periods or on other occasions when you don't actually have a human handy to yell at.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 10:13 PM

Jeri, I respect your own feelings regarding this matter. However, the person on the other end of my telephone is the ONLY person I can express my feelings toward. I can not speak to the "SYSTEM." I also feel that if enough people express their true feelings directly to the person on the other end of their phones, there eventually will be NO persons willing to take those jobs.

By the way, to try to clean up my sullied image slightly, what I do in reality is to cuss them out ... in Finnish. I've yet to run into a caller who speaks Finnish, but perhaps yet tonight, it's not quite dark yet. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: NicoleC
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 10:50 PM

As kendall pointed out, the problem was the law, not the judge. When Congress gets around to including charitable organizations and their own political parties in the law, the 1st Amendment Appeal won't wash. If the Do Not Call list meant DO NOT CALL, period, there would be no issue of preference over certain types of speech.

But truth be told, the idea that suddenly "x" million people will be out of work is rubbish. For a while, those who don't sign up will get more calls. And even if telemarketing were completely outlawed, businesses would find another way to hawk their goods and the jobs would move to mail marketing or some other form.

I personally see no point in being polite to someone who goes to work every day deliberately to be impolite, but I am rarely rude unless they refuse to stop speaking. Mostly though I don't get telemarketing calls. I withdraw my business from companies who refuse to take my opt-out request seriously, don't list my phone number and NEVER give it out to anyone who is not a friend or co-worker. I don't put it on forms or rebate submissions or anything. It mostly keeps me off the lists.

Clinton -- many phone companies offer a distinctive ring service. You program in the numbers you want and it rings one way, all other calls ring a different way. No need to peer at the Caller ID.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 11:23 PM

Bob, I guess cussing in Finnish isn't that bad, but I don't think yelling at telemarketers is gonna do anything to stop people taking jobs as telemarketers. It's like trying to stop wars by cussing out individual soldiers. (Well golly, I yelled at 5 of 'em today. That leaves only about 1.7 million to go.) There will always be people who need work badly enough to take these jobs, and there will be people who get mad right back at you and pass the anger on to someone else. There will be people who don't give a rat's ass how pissed off you are. The only people you'll hurt are those that have enough sensitivity to care what you think, and I believe that if someone's exposed to enough yelling and swearing, they'll eventually stop caring.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Deckman
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 11:51 PM

Jeri ... "Santaan Pericoles"! >B.G.< CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 10:03 AM

I don't yell or curse at the folks who call, even if I've been yelled or cursed at by them. I usually hang up when they choose to verbally abuse me. Yes, I've had that happen with a representative from a group who wished to sell me insulated windows. I usually explain why I don't need their product as honestly as I can and try to remember to ask them if they'd take me off their call back list before they hang up. The last to call was someone wanting me to subscribe to newspaper delivery. I explained that, in the past, I had spent more time rounding up and organizing my newspapers for the recycle bin than reading them. Many of them were never read. Charities have called wishing donations or to sell me tickets to their fund raiser concerts. I've tried to get them to hire me to open for their various featured acts to no avail.

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 10:40 AM

Thanks for the clarification, Kendall.

Jeri, poor dawgs!:-)

FWIW, if you use the right jargon for getting off of their lists, it seems to make them take more notice. Try telling them to take you "off their DIALER."

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Opt out of phone solicitation
From: Deckman
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 10:54 AM

Geeze Reggie! If I can't curse at them in Finnish, how else am I ever going to be able to use my extensive vocabulary? Bob