BS: Oh ye generation of morons...

Subject: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:22 PM

The 'liberal media' in the U.S.? Check out Faux- err Fox News:
HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:33 PM

Incredible!!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:43 PM

Hey, it's *their* lie an' they ain't gonna give it up without a fight.... ahhhh, literally. Yeah, amazin' just how dumbed down the American people have become. I'm not sure how or when it happened but it is increasingly obvious that it has been accomplished... So much fir the democracy, which Tom Jefferson warned us needs an informed electorate???...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:46 PM

Is it fair to use the term "brainwashing" to define what has been done to the American people? It's a neat trick having Government propaganda privatised like that. Probably much more effective than the way they did it in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM

It's just what normally happens in empires that practice aggression. Not all that unusual really. The Romans did it. The British did it. The Germans did it. The French did it. Saddam did it. The Japanese did it.

And in most cases, most of their public was just as ill-informed as is the American public. In fact, they usually believed that their government was defending truth, decency, freedom, and all those other wonderful things while it invaded foreign places and killed people who talk funny and dress oddly...and that the World would be much better off for it and the people they "liberated" would be filled with gratitude when the dust settled.

Pre-emptive war is terrorism. Threatening it is also terrorism.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:09 PM

The strangest one really is the the third - the belief that most people outside America supported what America did. That's unusual. I'd suggest that in most world empires the public, insofar as they took any interest in what was going on, knew that they were generally disliked, and even glorified in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:19 PM

I have to agree on that, McGrath. America may be fairly unique it this particular form of cultural blindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:33 PM

The part I truly do not understand is who and where these people are. VERY few people I know are so pathetically ill informed, and that includes some very conservative members of my family.

It reminds me of when they used to say "Why Johnny can't read". Well, in my experience Johnny CAN read- my daughter and ALL of her friends were excellent students. The only one of her friends I know of who had no no academic goals and didn't go to college eventually became a seamstress and is a happy woman deeply involved in SCA activities including designing and making costumes.

So where are these idiots?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:20 PM

One thing Americans on the east and west coasts tend to forget is that they are not the majority. The majority of Americans are still semi-rural mid-western high school graduates who take their news from tv and seldom discuss it with their friends. Except for sports. Many are willfully ignorant and dogmatically religious. WC Fields once said " 'My country right or wrong' is like 'My mother, drunk or sober' ". Much of middle America misses the joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:25 PM

If WC Fields ever said that he was quoting it from GK Chesterton. Which a lot of people do frequently, myself included.

I'd be inclined to doubt whether country dwellers are any more likely than town-dwellers to be over-credulous and pig-ignorant about these things. Not without some figures to prove it.

There's an old saying "There's none so blind as those who will not see", and I suspect that supplies the explanation for this phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Burke
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:58 PM

I'm one of those PBS/NPR people. Is it that we're better informed or that people who listen to public broadcasting are more likely to question what's happening?

What's with those statistics? The the graph totals are over 100%. I was thinking it was % of people using X News source who believe Y. But it says: Primary news source for those who believe Y.

Gotta do some more searching on this poll source... Later.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: NicoleC
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:59 PM

Wow, ya'll, I meet gobs of people who are utterly ignorant about the world and politics, and most of them are happy to be that way. Let's face it -- we all deep down really wish there was some source, some person, some cure the could solve problems for us and do our thinking. It fortunately doesn't exist, but ,any people want this so badly they pick {insert pundit/politician/TV station/newspaper/columnist here} and assume that that's the TRUTH.

You know these folks, too. They're almost always in the majority party (if it's the majority, it must be right) and they never discuss politics, because they already know the answers.

As for rural people, they aren't stupid or deliberately ignorant. They just don't get exposed to many of the things that urban people do, so they are less likely to change their mind, I think. That doesn't mean they aren't capable of it, it just means that it's not a priority in their lives if it's even occured to them. After you get beat over the head with diversity for a while in a big city, you can't help but realize that the world's horizons are SO much larger than you thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Burke
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:16 PM

The report this is based on looks really interesting. My initial interpretation of the statistics was also the correct one.
PIPA has titled it "Misperceptions, The Media and The Iraq War." It's a PDF & the stuff about the media outlets starts on p. 14 (of 23). I don't have time to read it now, but they control for lots of different factors like Attention to News, Party, who they voted for, etc.

Here's just one observation:
Looking just at Republicans, the average rate for the three key misperceptions was 43%. For Republican Fox viewers, however the average rate was 54% while for Republicans who get their news from PBS-NPR the average rate is 32%. This same pattern obtains with Democrats and independents.

GO NPR!!

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:41 PM

So where are these idiots?

California.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:47 PM

I don't know about the U.K., McGrath, but in North America country people tend to be more politically and socially conservative than city people. In my home provice of Ontario, for instance, the Conservative Party's abiding strength is in the more rural areas, and those are the areas that can be depended upon to back right wing legislation.

Cities are more cosmopolitan and varied in their makeup, and that tends to promote liberalism. Cities with universities are particulary so. Also, the average age is a lot younger in the major centres, and that's a BIG factor.

In the recent Ontario election the Conservatives got clobbered, but they still managed to hang on in some of their rural bastions, where the population is older, whiter, and more traditional...BUT...a mock election was held province-wide among high school students in every Ontario riding AND....not one single riding of students in the entire province elected a Conservative member this time!!! Not one. This is after 8 years of Conservative policies that did more harm to this province, its schools, its ecological protections, and its hospitals than anyone could have anticipated in their worst nightmares.

This tells me that the older people are, the more conservative and frankly mean-minded a lot of them tend to be (it's the old "I'm all right, Jack, so just promise ME a tax cut and to hell with the have-nots, they're just bums anyway" attitude), and the younger people are the reverse, ready to try something much more egalitarian. Young people dream of a better World, while people try to protect their established position of comfort and control and their hoard of material possessions.

Thank God for the young! (They're a great encouragement to old radicals such as myself.)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: AliUK
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:47 PM

MY God!! This is actually really shocking, the world ( or maybe North America) is really as badly informed as I thought it was. The problem with these polls and the statistics that they represent is that they never really get a good cross-section of the populace. The demographics are always cockeyed and I tend never to believe polls. It´s like betting on horse racing, you bet forever and never win anything. Then suddenly you get a largish resulyt and you think you have won, whereas you haven´t really. Polls sling figures and "facts" at people that can never really be proved, until they hit on a prediction and it comes true.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Amos
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 10:40 PM

Greg:

The point of your observation that some of these idiots are in California is what? Are you asserting that it reflects on all residents of the area?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: TIA
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 11:06 PM

I know (and am related to) Faux viewers and believers of the lies that are NOT rural, NOT illiterate, and (other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln) NOT idiots, but they believe most (if not all) of the three lies. WHAT AM I MISSING? How is this happening? It's not just redneck NASCAR fans. It's not just bought and paid for Republican shills. I fear McGrath is right it's brainwashing! Please tell me it ain't so.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: LadyJean
Date: 08 Oct 03 - 11:59 PM

Television news focusses on local stories, because that grabs attention, and the weather reports, because that's something else people want. The national network news has 30 minutes to tell us what's been going on today, plus a weather report, and a nice human interest story, because people like them. So, they're going to give us five minutes on the war in Iraq, and maybe another five minutes on a service man giving bubble gum to Iraqi children, or a service woman with two children at home.
The internet is an excellent source of news, if you can afford a computer, and a service, and someone explains the thing to you. I'm learning my way around by guesswork.
Then people hear about internet scams, internet pornography, and internet stalkers, and think internet dangerous, so they don't use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:31 AM

Well here's what it is. If you believe these stories are not true then you have to believe that the media can lie and then you strat wondering if perhaps the GUMMINT can lie, and even maybe the PEE-RESIDENT can lie -- not to just anyone but to the PEE-PULL of the country!! And if you allow that idea then it ALL goes to hell in a hand basket and nothing holds and you just have to spend all day thinking for yourself and being on the look out for false ideas and such hazards. Now, I ask you, who has time to do that? And who would want to think they were in a country like that? I might rather be some kinda damn COMMunist, I swan! It just means nothing is wholly trustworthy -0- not God, not the country, not Mom nor apple pie and its just all goddamned humanist relativism. Well, I know whar mah values are and that ain't it, see????

A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:36 AM

I

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:39 AM

I'm not ego-obsessed, honest! --My finger went astray again....
I was about to say that maybe M'Grath and I have the same reaction when we read ---"--the melodrama in California is over---"; hmmmm-yes--pantomime, they mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Mickey191
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:54 AM

I've two cousins,both college grads, well travelled, sophisticated and Manhattanites. I believe if they were asked those three questions-they'd flunk. I dare not ask. They become almost unhinged at the suggestion that Bush is incompetant & devious. With one cousin, a bank mgr., I believe it is his extreme hatred for the Clintons. It's like Pavlov's dog, the automatic response if one criticizes Bush & his cohorts, the Clintons are roasted & toasted.   

The other is a mother of five, one of whom is serving in Korea, near the N.K. border. I was speaking about H.R.Clinton and her good efforts on behalf of vets in the northeast. I was met with stony silence.

I think that hatred drives alot of people into irrational stances, and of course the need for constant entertainment. The last couple of days in N.Y. most of the local news programs started with "The tiger in the ap't.story & Sigfreid & Roy Story." This is news?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:20 AM

Amos, I believe you have it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 06:05 AM

In many parts of the world country dwellers are likely to be more conservative - though that can mean all kinds of things, the central one beig distrustful of innovation, rather than the belief thta the free market can solve everything and that big money is to be trusted - but that doesn't mean gullible. The idea that people in rural areas in a place like the USA these days have fewer sources of reliable information than towndwellers strikes me as very questionable.

Anyone who believes those three things - that weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, that Iraq had anything to do with September 11, or that there is widespread support for the invasion of Iraq around the world is either extremely gullible, and I would suspect wilfully so.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:22 AM

I'm asserting, in response to a query, that some of the 'invisible' idiots- on the basis of recent observations & objective criteria- are in California. But hardly limited to that locale.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:16 PM

I think people don't pay close enough attention to the news, and/or believe everything they hear, or think they hear, without a second opinion. Add to that the fact that so many news agencies begin reporting stories before they have all the facts... News reporting is so much hearsay anymore it's incredible that anyone knows what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:33 PM

notice the poll was from the whopping sum of 9,611 respondents. a sample rate of approximately 1 in 30,500

Would you be able to figure out the Mudcat if you sampled only every 30,500th message?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:52 PM

Willful and conclusive ignorance is a known human mechanism. It is undergone for the benefit of eliminating confusion and permitting stability of mind when looking at things becomes too tiresome and thinking too painful.   One simply adopts some sort of conclusion (such as, "Goddam towelheads are all the same", for example) and uses this conclusion as a reason for no longer thinking about questions that are hard to penetrate (such as "What's up with the Muslim population of this planet these days?"). So you can paint everything else black and not think about it.

This can be undone by analyzing and recognizing the conclusion itself for what it is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:02 PM

which , BTW - would mean you would have only 34 samples for the seven year history of the MudCat

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:07 PM

Without going into the long list of cable channels available in my area (not everybody has cable) and looking only at the broadcast channels, tomorrow evening (Friday, 10/9/2003) at 9:00 p.m. the TV Guide lists Hope and Faith, a sitcom; Dateline NBC, newsmagazine; JAG, military/courtroom drama; Lethal Weapon 3, movie thriller; Friends,syndicated rerun of popular sitcom; and NOW, with Bill Moyers, PBS. A sampling of the many cable channels available in this area are This Hour Has 22 Minutes, comedy skits (CBC); Oprah Winfrey, rebroadcast of talk show (KONG); Comedy Central Presents, self-explanatory (Comedy Channel); NFL Live, sports (ESPN); etc., plus Larry King on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, Discovery Channel, History Channel, and others all showing their usual programing.

During the nine-o'clock hour, I will be watching NOW, with Bill Moyers on PBS. How many other people, do you figure, will also be watching the Bill Moyers show?

That explains a lot, I think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:09 PM

The Rocky Mountain West has changed. When I grew up in it, we were well-informed, literate and liberal. When I left Colorado in 1977, it was still heavily Democrat-populated. Now, I find it is more conservative than Wyoming was in some ways. Also, my dau. in WY tells me that even the GOP up there is shaking their heads at the shrub and ready to oust him. THAT, to me, is one of the most significant things I've heard in ages. I always thought of WY as one of the last bastions of conservativism. BUT, they elected a Dem. for gov. last year and now it seems the old fashioned Republicans that they are, are being more vocal and they do have political clout.

So...I find the report interesting, but would like to know more about it. Also, I don't think it is a good idea to paint all midwesterners/ruralites/etc. as backwards, ignorant fools, I bleieve the term used to be "dumb hick". We are not, you might be surprised. NPR and PBS reach nearly every area of our country now and have done for years.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:31 PM

McGrath - No, country people are not at all deprived of sources of information these days, it's just a different kind of cultural stance, that's all. For instance, consider my town of Orillia, Ontario. It's in a lovely country region that has elected a Conservative MP ever since 1952!!! Even when the Conservatives were dead and buried in Toronto, they would still get elected in this area. They could probably run a chimp here and get elected.

Now what is Orillia and area like? Well, it's known as a retirement town. The population is a lot older on average than in Toronto, and the teenagers mostly move to Toronto as soon as they are out of high school if they are at all gifted and independent. The population is typical old white anglo-saxon Canada as it used to be in the 50's in Toronto. It's the old British Empire establishment, you could say.

And in Canada, those are the people most likely to vote Conservative and to support the neo-con social agenda generally.

They're not stupid, they're well educated, they're generally rather well off, and they've got the political instincts of a moribund jackass (in my opinion).

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:08 PM

I would like to confess my idiocy as a Californian, and ask for a sampling of others who may be inclined to confess the same -- I'm seriously interested in where I went wrong on this point, and it is relevant to the thread:

Yesterday I learned from a foreign newspaper that Arnold ran the losing Bush-Cheney campaign in California in 2000, and that he has some history, small or otherwise, of consulting Karl Rove (which I loooked into after hearing it from Bobert, giving credit where credit is due.)

Last night I read my local (Republican-leaning) newspaper (a monopoly holder), and the editorial described Governor Arnold as "the quintessential outsider."

SO: I'm wondering, and if other Californians would confess: Did you know both of those facts about Arnold before the election?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:08 PM

Having far right views about what's right and what's wrong and all that is one thing. People have a right to have the politucal instinct of a moribund jackass.

But being ignorant about pretty basic facts like that, well that is something else. The truth is, in a country that aspires to be a democracy and takes some pride in the traditions of democracy, it's a betrayal of all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:25 PM

"Both of those facts" referring, of course, to Arnold running Bush's campaign and Arnold consulting Karl Rove. If you knew, HOW did you know? My point is: Were these reported in mainstream newspapers or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:34 PM

And you had thought what? Guest/heric, I really am curious. Just what did the people who voted for Schwarzenegger think that he brought to the table- what ideals, experience, ideas, character, credibility? I would like to know, if only to get the courage to ask my California daughter whether she voted for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:40 PM

As I've said elsewhere, MemberEbbie, I thought he was a guy who had a meeting with Kenneth Lay, America's biggest crook, at the height of the energy crisis, and claimed not to remember. That was all I needed to know.

You didn't even answer the question, btw. Did you, a literate, well-informed Alaskan know those two things? Don't be shy.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:48 PM

I'm not entirely sure that the U.S. citizens actually aspire to democracy. The founders of the nation found it an expedient philosophy but they were careful not to let voters directly elect the president and they were very careful about who they were going to let vote.

U.S. citizens today—like people in all industrialized countries—don't actually experience very much democracy. They grow up in families or institutions that aren't democratic, they go to work for companies that aren't democratic, they worship at churches that aren't democratic and they become comfortable and skillful at managing their position within a rigid power structure.

Corporate minions would be in big trouble if their rewards were actually in line with their contributions or abilities. Americans want to use politics in the same way they manipulate corporate hierarchy. They talk about efficiency in government in the same terms they talk about efficiency in production then they equate lack of debate with efficiency. Americans are looking for a sure thing or at least the perceived possibility of getting a sure thing. The last thing most Americans want is a system in which they might acquiesce in one area in order to gain in another. A large percentage of Americans are both selfish and lazy combined with a large measure of avarice.

One of the really laughable lines you hear from Americans is "I'm an independent, I have no party affiliation." All that means is that they exercise no control or influence whatever over the choice of candidates in an election. It sounds high-minded and fair but not only do these people shirk responsibility, they provide no input into the party platforms that should be the basis for electoral choice.

With the exception of thoughtful folks here on this forum, I think Americans get about what they really want.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:31 PM

McGrath et al - The United States isn't a democracy. Supposedly it's a Republic.

Now Mark, I don't know why you think having no party affiliation is laughable. Why should I have to choose one or the other when I think they are both idiotic? As far as I'm concerned, every party with a candidate should have equal time in the media without regard to who's got the most money in the war chest. But it never works that way.

I vote independent when I have the choice, if I think the candidate is worth voting for, and I think my vote is as valid as anyone else's.

People don't have any excuse for being uninformed. The information is out there for those who are willing to take the time to seek it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:33 PM

Mark Clark said he thinks Americans mostly get what they want. Well, perhaps some Americans. And perhaps not. The information at the link below takes careful reading, but can be understood. Once again, the Diebold machines (computerized voting machines) are presumed to have been rigged in the California race.


Diebold machines and the California recall

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:37 PM

>>People don't have any excuse for being uninformed. The information is out there for those who are willing to take the time to seek it out.<<

But C.O., the point of the thread is not whether one gets a pass, and is "excused," but whether the larger corporate media have become so derelict in their duties as to create a large population that is so uninformed as to be virtually misinformed. Not a difficult argument to make, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:03 PM

Heric:

No,. I did not know these two things about Arnahld. I militated against him and voted against him for other reasons. SInce he won anyway I just have to keep my fingers crossed that he has a few more brain cells than I gace him credit for.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: TIA
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:17 PM

Folks, please go read the link pdc provided above. Very, very scarey.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM

Lest anyone think that I'm unfairly singling out Californians for the Internationl Dumber Than Dirt Sweepstakes, I now tender this entry from the East coast of the country:

EXCELSIOR!

For those across the pond, the Regents series tests are standardized exams administered by New York State similar to O Levels. There is no nationally administered series of tests.

These geniuses decided that a score which amounts to the results that can be obtained by random guessing is a sufficient measure of academic proficiency.

This is how the like-minded imbeciles in Dumbya's crew will "Leave No Child Behind" - by allowing everyone on the 'bus whether they have a ticket or not.

Stand Tall America! And don't wonder why the U.S. education system is considered to be a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:32 PM

*sigh* don't think we';re happy about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 05:04 PM

Amos and I read the same pathetic rag of a monopoly-owning newspaper which just raised its prices. I'm glad at least it wasn't obviously there.

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: The O'Meara
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 05:37 PM

Regarding not belonging to a particular political party:

I believe in the right of American citizens to unrestricted ownership of firearms. I believe that abortion is up to the woman and is not the business of any government. I believe every American citizen should recieve health care in line with our national wealth and technology. I believe Americans are required to pay far too much in taxes at all levels of government.

What party should I belong to?

I agree with H.L. Mencken's observation that "Nobody ever lost money underestimating the average American." I'm pretty sure that most Americans cast their ballots based on the "likeability" of the candidates, as seen on TV, not on any particular political philosophy despite all the arguing by the pundits and analysts.


O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:15 PM

most Americans cast their ballots based on the "likeability" of the candidates

And if we assume that to be true it's still pretty alarming. It means people in America actually see these guys as likeable!


Arnold...Bush...

Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
From: The O'Meara
Date: 09 Oct 03 - 08:19 PM

clinton, carter, etc, etc Even Nixon.

O'Meara