BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute

Subject: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 01:58 PM

This story is so completely silly and sad, you may be reading this in your newspaper too soon. If it was not for the sad aspect of it, I would have made this a song contest.

What you must know before the story is that in Germany, as a reaction to our ugly past, several things are 'unconstitutional' and have to be punished when shown/done in public: Some Nazi songs are forbidden to sing (or even only to play the tune), the Nazi salute is forbidden, to say 'Heil (what was his name?)' is forbidden, you may not show the Nazi flag and so on. (BTW, there are of course exceptions for historical studies, historical films etc.)

In general, I agree with that policy, for I think at least as long as holocaust survivors are alive, they should not be forced in our country to listen or watch to things making them relive very bad memories.

As with all things forbidden, some people try to test how far they can go. Just one instance: Neonazis may greet each other with '88'. 88? Yes, H is the eighth letter of the alphabet and this way they circumscribe the verbal Nazi salute 'Heil (what was his name?)'.

Now you know enough to understand the story:
A man (already known for his very right political leanings) has a dog. He calls his dog 'Adolf'. A bit unusual for a dog name, but not forbidden. The dog is an Alsatian in SS-black. That too is not forbidden but within the range of possible Alsatian colours. He has trained his dog when sitting to rise the right paw stretched well above shoulder height. That too is not forbidden, though there are more impressing dog tricks than that. As a cue for the dog to show the trick he uses the words 'show the salute'. That by itself is a bit longish for a cue but is not forbidden too.

Now you put all the ingredients together: When the man was controlled by the police last year (for what reasons I don't know) he said to his dog: "Adolf, sit, show the salute" and Adolf did as it had been taught. The policemen didn't see the funny side of this. Now the dog's owner faces a court for 'showing unconstitutional symbols in public'. This is not his only offence (there are several more along similar lines), but that is the offence that made the headlines.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:05 PM

See the thread on political correctness

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:08 PM

Nazis... drown 'em all...

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 02:11 PM

Well, if he is using the dog to execute his own salute, using the dog as an extension of himself, and causing the salute to be made fully intending to do that, then IMO, logically, he is responsible in practical terms. Legally, I don't know, I don't know your laws on intent and so forth. But logically, to sya he is not responsible is casuistry.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 03:35 PM

I entirely think the guy is responsible if he's trained his dog to do it. Sure, prosecute him. Likewise if his dog shits on the towpath by my canal boat, prosecute him too, Nazi or liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 03:50 PM

I think he should be arrested for having way too much time on his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 03:52 PM

the man went out of his way to create a way to execute a forbidden expression in a strange way, but there can be little doubt what he was trying to do-- show admiration for and allegiance to, the Nazi cause...he should be sentenced to teach a Poodle to dance to "Have Nagila"

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM

Or the Nazi salute with hind leg, while peeing on a photo or statue of 88.

(hi Bill)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:29 PM

I'm not sure that the dog or his trainer should have been arrested but such anti-social practices need to be curtailed...

Charley Ignoble (from his dark side)

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:33 PM

Charley, please!!

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:35 PM

The dog needs to be placed in a foster home and rehabilitated...*kidding, just kidding*.

I agree with the others who feel this man knew full well what he was doing. It's too bad he had to use the dog this way and I do think the dog deserves a different home.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:41 PM

Wolfgang: At the serious RISK of involving myself in a controversy, I am going to post a story that will probably blow your mind. I live in the U.S.A., which means that I am an American. I'm 66 years old and I am cursed with an excellant memory. My Father was a builder who hired many, many carpenters. Over the years, growing up, I remember some of these more colorful carpenters very well.

Let me tell you the story of "Ted." Ted had a small, short legged black haired dog named "Smokey." Ted had trained Smokey to do tricks. One of his tricks was to do the "Heil Hitler." At that command, Smokey would jump to a chair, place one paw on the upright, raise the other paw in the air, and bark twice. True story!

This always caused great laughter among us carpenters when it happened ... in 1949!

So, here you are, some 54 years later, with a similiar story!

What a time lapse.

I have NO comment as to the political correctness of this event ... different times, different places, different countries and different laws. However, when I saw your note, I HAD to respond. (Hello from America). CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 04:48 PM

Maybe the difference would have been that Ted would have probably had the intention that a Nazi saluting dog would have been a way of ridiculing the Nazis, not paying tribute to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:04 PM

McGrath of Harlow: I do appreciate your comment. And I do think you are correct. 1949 was a strange time in the NorthWest corner of America where I lived. My Father was an immigrant from Finland. As such, he was very partial to other immigrants from Northen Europe and went out his way to welcome them to our neighborhhod and hire them as he could. Some of these immigrants were from Germany, which raised very difficult questions in 1949, such as: "what did you do in the war?"

And, as for "Smokey" and the Nazi salute, it was ridicule!

Thanks again for clearifying the issue. Sometimes, when I'm too close to an issue, I loose perspective! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:29 PM

Thanks for the comments. Bob, I have no problem at all with your story.

That man is no innocent who didn't know what he was doing. The legal construction to charge him goes more or less as Wysiwyg has posted.

My problem here is that I see how this could be used as propaganda and to make fun of the justice's attempts to deal with Neonazis. First, the man will claim that he had not the slightest intention to train his dog to show the Nazi salute. He just said "Show the salute". His lawyer will cite at least 2 dozen harmless ways to salute with a right limb in history (Cesar at al.). If that doesn't help the lawyer will try to show that an animal cannot show the Nazi salute at all. He even may point out that in the Third Reich a man calling his dog Adolf and training it this trick might have been charged as well (he even might be right). The lawyer then will tell that the man meant that trick as a making fun of the Nazis (yes, in caricature, for instance, you are allowed to use these symbols). Just like in Bob's story.

And so an. They have some very clever and tricky lawyers, the Neonazis. One of the best, by the way, is Horst Mahler who once had acted as lawyer for the extreme left Red Army faction. He has gone all the way from far left to far right within half a decade and uses his bag of tricks from then for Neonazis now.

A way to avoid such a course might have been to charge the man with clearer and less propaganda prone crimes. Supposedly he has done enough of other things (Nazi saluting himself etc.) for a sure sentence. Skip a lesser crime or some crime for which the case is not so convincing. You get a shorter trial with less propaganda this way.
But I don't know enough of law so I don't know whether this could be done.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 06:47 PM

In English law the official rule is that lawyers have to take cases as they come, so it'd be seen as quite normal for the same lawyer to fight a case on behalf of far right and of far left accused. It wouldn't in itself imply anything about their own politics. A barrister who refused to defend an accused Nazi because he detested his politics could get struck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM

This is a case of a silly, extreme man flashing the red flag at a silly, extreme legal structure with predictable results...the law goes after him.

Sounds like they deserve each other.

I think Bill D's idea is simpy wonderful! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:07 PM

"When the man was controlled by the police last year (for what reasons I don't know) he said to his dog: "Adolf, sit, show the salute" and Adolf did as it had been taught."

Even if he taught the dog to do it "as a satire," in effect, he called (had his dog call) the arresting officers Nazis by telling the dog to salute them as such(?)

"No sir, your honor. I was only scratching my nose because it itched. It was entirely a coincidence that I used that finger..."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:22 PM

Question here for Wolfgang: Was not the Nazi slogan "Heil Hitler!" a revival of the old "Hail Caesar!" from the Roman Empire? How about the Nazi salute? How closely did it resemble the ancient Roman one? The Nazis also used stylized eagles and standards that evoked the old Roman Empire. This stuff keeps recyclling itself over and over again as the centuries go by...

Would the World be made safer by also banning Roman symbols?

One other thought: the Native Americans could make a very good case for banning the US flag, as it presided over many genocidal slaughters enacted upon their villages.

On the other hand, the white Americans could make the opposite case against feather headresses, since Natives also slaughtered and tortured whites.

If people are so afraid of the past or bitter over it that they dare not look its symbols and icons in the face, then I think they have a serious emotional problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:24 PM

Assuming that the dog was male perhaps he was subtly suggesting that anyone who made such a salute was a real son of a bitch?

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:46 PM

Hmmm ! Totally irrelevant, but I had a dog once, that (without any training) would go beserk at the sight of a Blue Roset.

Still, at least we were not bothered by Conservative Canvasers.

A Dog after my own heart.

Garetn

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 07:50 PM

Dogs can be trained to do absolutely anything...kind of like people...

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:19 PM

I suppose this guy won't get in serious trouble..but Little Hawk & I would sure love to see some conviction.. with that 'interesting' punishment..*grin* ...maybe even have his Alsatian have to wear a dog tag with a 6 pointed star.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 08:44 PM

If the dog was wearing an armband, I think there might be a case.
Legband?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:18 PM

We really need the dog's view on this before we leap to any hasty conclusions. Was the dog fully cognizant of the significance of the gesture, and if so, should dogs have the right to make such gestures in Germany (or elsewhere)? Were the dog's civil rights interfered with by his owner or by the police? Did the dog's lack of separate fingers prevent him from making a different, entirely inoffensive gesture...perhaps the "V" for victory? Is the dog an innocent dupe or a willing accomplice in the heinous act of imitating a historical gesture which has become persona non grata? Did he simply experience an uncontrollable leg spasm?

I bet the German papers love this story!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: LadyJean
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:44 PM

We used to take our poodle to a dog groomer, a Czech lady, who had a lhasa apso she called Hitler, "Because she's such a tyrant." There's some poetic justice in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:47 PM

Yeah, we had a dog like that too. It's common in very small dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Oct 03 - 11:59 PM

If there is any justice in this universe, Hitler *would* be reincarnated as a lhasa apso. Preferrably one kept by a large family of very stereotypical New York Jews who would stick pink ribbons in his hair.

Perhaps, Wolfgang, you can answer a question for me, if it isn't too rude to ask? I have always thought that the German desire to restrict and criminalize everything connected to Hitler was a mistake. After all, as the adage goes, those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. But it's hard, as an outsider, to understand. Is there such a problem with Neo-Nazis and Nazi worship that these measures are truly needed to prevent a resurgance? Is it collective guilt? Or is it merely, as it seems, perhaps an overreaction, but one that is understandable?

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 04:48 AM

McGrath,

our system is similar to yours. Lawyers can reject clients with good reasons, but disliking their political stance isn't one of them. However, most lawyers in the Baader-Meinhof trials have been politically close to the accused (by wish of the accused). Some even went so far as to smuggle pistols in the jails.

The same is true today for Neonazis. They like to be defended by lawyers sharing their world view. Mahler himself has always shared the world view of the accused he worked for. Then, left terrorists, now right radicals (not yet terrorists).

Little Hawk,

I don't know. I'd guess the Nazis rather would have liked to find an old Germanic reason for that salute.

Nicole,

that is a good and difficult (ah, well, if it's not difficult, it can't be good) question.
There are two roots from which our present restrictive laws come:
(1) The Allies immediately after occupying Germany have forbidden nearly everything that was connected to the Nazis. To give you an idea how much that was: 40,000 books and booklets I have read once were forbidden. When Germany made its constitution in 1949, it was not completely free in what it could write in that constitution. So our constitution would possibly not have been allowed by the Allies in 1949 without explicit anti-Nazi clauses.
(2) Germany was very open then for any such suggestion. We have made very bad experiences during the Weimar republic with a very liberal constitution allowing many things and allowing a quite extreme view of freedom of expression. To say that you'd want to abolish the constitution and the human rights in it was your constitutional right. You could say nearly everything bad about the Jews (or another disliked group) even that you'd like to throw them out of Germany within your constitutional rights (that those rights, by German courts, were interpreted even more liberal for the rights, and not for the lefts, is another story). You could threaten with nearly every evil you'd like to do once you got elected and as long as you did not do it (before you got elected). It was your freedom to do so. The Nazis came into power and did everything what they had threatened and some more things. We do not want to repeat that experience - ever. In 1949, the battle cry in those discussions was 'No freedom for the enemies of freedom' and it still is the battle cry today.

In 1949, there was no other choice, both from allied pressure and own bad experiences being still very vivid. Everybody (nearly) in Germany wanted that kind of restriction of Nazi activities. Now, we can ask ourselves whether we would not be better off with laws allowing more freedom of expression even for evil mindedand evil talking persons. But a change of the constitution is quite difficult and, especially from a foreign policy point of view, not in our interest. Why should we risk an international outcry for dropping anti-Nazi-propaganda clauses in our constitution when we feel no urgency to change what has served us well for more than half a century?

The Neo-Nazis are not a real problem now on a national basis. In some parts of Newfiveland (the former GDR) they are a menace to public peace for their brutality which is very selectively dealt out, sometimes with fatal consequences, to not German looking persons (whether they have a German passport or not). Though they are dangerous and intimidating, they are only a small number and no danger for the German democracy. They can and should be dealt with by the police.

Any possible danger for our democracy, like in other Western democracies, will arise from a much more moderate populist position which in times of crisis (eonomical or political/terrorist) could make positions like 'Germany to the Germans' and 'Send them all where they came from' or 'Each Muslim is a potential terrorist and could be treated as such' acceptable to a large number of voters. Those people would not walk the streets in black boots and would be against any physical threats and actions. They could possibly change our country to the worse and not those few brutes with murderous intentions and actions. But that is a theoretical danger at the moment and, I hope, for a long time to come.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: kendall
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:24 AM

I think Hitler should reincarnate as a poor Jewish woman, or a retarded Gypsy

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Gurney
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:45 AM

Poor sad bastard. Can't the cops find some gun-runners or drug-dealers to chase, instead of picking on nutters?
We have a cat come through our garden, and we call it Adolf because of its markings ('tache, fringe..) and I'm sure that it gives a Nazi salute, but only when it is washing its bum.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 08:33 AM

We do so much of the same here and yet still fail to realize that restricting the freedom to one group will eventually restrict freedom to other groups until all freedom is lost.

"The people will fancy an appearance of freedom; Illusion will be their native land."........Jacques Ellul

Erasing all traces of a problem will not make things better but will often make the tabooed subject of greater interest and the first thing you know you have saluting Alsatians....Thank gawd it wasn't a Weimaraner..........

Question here Wolfie, just out of curiosity.......Has the name Adolph re-established itself or is it still too closely associated with those times?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 09:12 AM

Wolfgang:

Danke -- a thoughtful and concise summary of what is really a very thorny political history.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 09:26 AM

It's not just the dog -- what other charges have been brought?

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:06 AM

Spaw,

the name Adolf is extremely seldom in males below sixty years of age. Out of fashion, completely. The only one I know calls himself Adi.

By the way, as an information for songwriters (I once saw it in a song contest here): the name 'Fritz' is also quite out of fashion. If you hear of a German called Fritz you can safely bet he's over 80.

The male top ten from 2000:

Alexander
Maximilian
Lukas
Leon
Tim
Paul
Niklas
Jonas
Daniel
Jan

Wolfgang (completely out of fashion now though it was top name in the decade after the war; safe bet: over fifty now)

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:22 AM

From the ticker: court proceedings in this case have been abandoned (no reason given yet). Other trials still to come for him (showing the salute himself).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:09 PM

Wolfgang-

My father who was born back in 1905 and still walks this earth was named Adolph. He was viewed with some suspicion by neighbors in the WW II period but that may have been because he had moved his family from New York City to a small town in Maine. He named my brother and me Charles and Robert, and we were very greatful for that!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 05:24 PM

Very good explanation of the German situation there, Wolfgang.

My name "George" has suffered a similar fate to yours...it used to be very common until the 1960's. Now virtually no one names their son George, so if you meet a George he is likely to be over 50 years old.

Too bad. It's a good name, and so is Wolfgang.

One thing that has always bugged me, since I like to build models of WWII airplanes, is that most of the model companies are afraid to provide the small swastika marking that goes on the tail, lest they offend someone. This seems sad, because after all one is just trying to build an accurate looking model of a historical aircraft, not promoting Naziism. I look forward to the day when people put this stuff behind them and stop worrying about it so much.

We have bigger threats to our security from mainstream political movements, as you suggest, than from little groups of neo-Nazis. The mainstream can hide behind its bland exterior of normality and sanction very damaging things and get away with it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: NicoleC
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:09 PM

Wolfgang - Thanks so much for the response. I hadn't really thought about the international angle, and it does make a lot of sense. One can only hope that as time passes, those laws will just become meaningless relics. We probably have a bigger Neo-Nazi problem in the US.

LH - I have a dry ink printer that can print all kinds of decals and such on clear water-slide decal paper. Metallics, white, whatever. If you really have an interest, PM me. Better hurry, they just (GRRR!) cancelled all the ink supplies for this printer and when I run out of stockpiled ink, it'll have to hit the recycle bin...

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 03 - 06:28 PM

No more Fritzes? That's a shame. I mean, Adolf I can understand but Fritz... How about Friedrich, of which I believe Fritz is a pet form?

Mozart and Goethe should ensure that there will always be a few Wolfgangs around.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:10 AM

Friedrich is more likely than the pet form Fritz, but among those Germans below 30 you'll even find more Kevin's than Friedrich's. The decline of Friedrich/Fritz started first with the resignation and then went on with the death of the last German Kaiser, Friedrich Wilhelm. Wilhelm/Willy also took a dip. Wilhelmine, the female form, is now close to complete extinction.

Mozart, Goethe! Please! What do you think the majority takes the role models from now? From films or footballers. And a film it was where from we got Kevin that made the top ten for about 5 years in succession before falling out of favour again.

I wanted to call my daughter Maeve, but my wife vetoed with the unbeatable argument that she wanted to be able to pronouce her daughter's name without problems.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 09:35 AM

The same thing has happened here...people are picking names based on TV show characters, Hollywood actors, musicians, and that sort of thing. A great many people named their kids "Dylan" for a couple of decades there, because of Bob Dylan. We have been buried under an avalanche of boys named "Kyle" because of some silly soap opera that I've never even seen. Britney, Erin, Megan, and Courtney all became very popular for girls. And so it goes....

Life imitates art (if you can call it that) which attempts to imitate life...like a snake swallowing its own tail.

Nicole - That's interesting. I will PM you. I can already get most decals I need through aftermarket manufacturers, but I'd still be interested in such a printing system for making original markings now and then. Thanks!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:18 AM

I didn't say Mozart and Goethe produces a majority, just enough to keep the name in circulation. Until a footballer or a cartoon character turns up to make it fashionable.

Though, thinking of cartoon characters, I'm surprised Fritz the Cat didn't produce a crop of Fritzes a few years back. (I notice that web site has a German version as well as an English version.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:42 AM

Wasn't what's-his-name's name Adolphus?

If you hear the guy with the dog say "look man, that dog isn't working!" stuff something very thick down the front of your trousers ... the dog's owner, maybe.

Steve

(Fritz the Cat, eh? Man, that takes me back!)

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: X
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 02:06 PM

Wer gibt wirklich eine Scheiße?

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 06:54 PM

To the Banjoest- that remnds me. A man I used to go with grew up in nazi Germany. He belonged to the Hitler Youth and he was very proud of his uniform.

His father ran a local prisoner of war work camp (I'm not sure of the details here) and sometimes he brought home a prisoner to dinner. One of them was a Frenchman named Pierre.

When the boy had to go to the Hitler Youth meetings, he had to pass by the compound where the prisoners were. Invariably, Pierre would be at the gate and as the boy passed by, Pierre would snap to attention and give the Hitler salute, saying smartly: Scheiss, Hitler!.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: X
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:26 PM

"Scheiss, Hitler!"

I agree. Who gives a shit about him?

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 10:41 PM

Fritz the Cat was not popular enough to inspire the masses to name their sons Fritz. "Kyle", however, was that popular. Be that as it may, I still do not know who Kyle was, but I do know who Fritz the Cat was. Weird, isn't it?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 02:04 PM

You may want to read this follow-up:

Hitler-Saluting Dog Seeks New Owner

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 02:10 PM

Thanks Wolfgang, I like a happy ending - and German Shepherds.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: topical tom
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 02:27 PM

There is too much in this to be coincidence.Intent is obvious.It seems that justice was done in this case.
Well said, Emma.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:53 PM

They (not me) are still giving the Nazi salute in the church I go to, not on purpose but no longer with innocence since every time they do it I put a note in the collection box and say no Nazi salutes in church..I have also talked with ushers etc. You can tell some of the mostly older people are horrified but they do it anyway. This is called a "blessing". I grew up Catholic and we did not do "blessings" of any sort so this is not a tradition that has gone on forever and was co-opted by the Nazis. It is horribly offensive to me and I can not believe the whole congregation does not shout out not on your life buster will I do this. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 04:57 PM

They ARE NOT doing a Nazi salute, they are doing a gesture common around the world in Christendom that happens also to be the salute Hitler used.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:00 PM

PS, mg, according to your reasoning, Garth Brooks was soliciting Nazi salutes when his sold out concerts repeatedly resulted in thousands of fans crowding in front of the stage, waving their arms in the air toward him up on the stage, out of fan fervor. As well as the Beatles. Look at the old film, and you'll see just this.

Damn that Gaither Homecoming crowd, too-- filthy Nazi sympathizers! (NOT) And the people attending praise music concerts, praise prayer services......

Hands are not the trouble here. Minds are.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:18 PM

We do it in our Catholic parish, too, mg. It's referred to as "extending a hand in blessing," and has nothing to do with saluting. Haven't heard any complaints....

Some churches built long before Hitler, are decorated with swastika designs - although the hooks are pointed in the opposite direction from those on the Nazi "Hakenkreuz" (hooked cross).

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:27 PM

I've often seen pastors extend a right arm, palm outward, while bestowing a blessing on the congregation (e.g., "Go in peace. Serve the Lord"). This is a relaxed arm and hand, extended in a spirit of benevolence, not the rigid, military pose of the Nazi salute.

The idea that anyone could possibly construe this as a "Nazi salute" never occurred to me, and I find it hard to get my head around!

Don Firth

P. S. I've seen the "swastika" as a Southwest Indian design figure—long pre-dating the formation of the Nazi party.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:37 PM

By the way, some years ago when I was working as an announcer for a classical music radio station, while I was sitting there at the board enjoying the music and sipping at a cup of coffee, the telephone rang. A listener (German accent) was exceedingly unhappy with my selection of music.

How could I be so insensitive as to play that "Nazi music?" He was furious with me and with the station. He was going to get me fired! He was going to write a letter to the FCC and get the station's license pulled!

Turns out that the piece I had on the turntable was one of Hitler's favorites. I wasn't aware of that.

It was a well known and often played piano concerto.

By Beethoven.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 11:38 PM

My parents had a set of the classics of literature which had a decorative band of the old-fashioned swastika on the inside front and back boards. Also one on the front page. I still have one of the Kipling ones.

Thanks for the update, Wolfgang. Good luck to Adi.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:51 PM

The city of Glendale, CA and its Montrose enclave have numerous green painted street lights, the bases of which are encircled by interlocking swastikas. Individuals, twice in the last twenty years, have tried to get the city to remove these stanchions; community furor has twice rallied against this. It should be noted (and has been) that the lamp posts pre-date Herr Hitler's rise to power, and the symbols face left, rather than right (or diagonally) ala a Nazi swastika. Just to add a little spice, Glendale was the location of the American Nazi Party from the mid-1960s to about 1980...not a great source of pride for the city.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 02:13 PM

Was that the Glendale, where Jesse James robbed the train, in the song?

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 04:23 PM

I don't believe that Jesse James was ever in California, nor in Arizona...the only Glendales I'm familiar with. Glendale, CA was not even called Glendale until 1884 (incorporated 1906), two years post mortem Jesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 04:31 PM

There's a Glendale in Missouri. (Googling "Glendale" gives you their website, among others. I assume that was it.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: skipy
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 04:44 PM

ClintonH:-
Nazis... drown 'em all...
is that statement not a little simillar to:-
Jews... gas 'em all...
Skipy, trust me NOT trying to start any sort of fight here, there must have been many "kindhearted Nazis" swept along within a machine that they really did not believe in.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:35 AM

You mean, like the present Pope? The one who wants to put the Catholic church firmly back in the 15th Century again?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Rog Peek
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

Perhaps the dog was Dr. Strangelove in disguise, and just simply couldn't help himself.

Which has just raised a question in my mind for Wolfgang:

Would a showing of the film Dr. Stranglove be permissable in Germany?

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 01:26 PM

I think if a symbol, gesture, song, was in common useage before the Nazis took over, common usage...not ancient...there are arguments to be made for keeping it, etc.

When there is no recent history of it, and it is something totally associated with the Nazi regime, such as the Nazi salute, which is not common in any culture I have been in, it needs to be verboten, perhaps for the rest of eternity. (Regarding the Nazi salute in church..it is something I had never seen growing up..well, for one thing the parishioners would have not stood for it, passive as they were..) It is a slippery slope..well, if we do this, why can't we embroider the swatzika on our shirts etc....bbut the nice songs etc. that were sung before Nazi times should be brought back I think, as long as they are about meadows in spring etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 01:28 PM

Yes..especially with the present pope. It is too strange, although he was a child or young teen at the time. And the past pope was a prisoner of the Nazis..this is not something Catholics, even the lukewarm ones like me that God is going to spit out of His mouth they say..should be doing.mg

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:38 PM

Not clear from mg's posts whether she's complaining about some version of "the sign of peace" introduced in her part of the world, instead of shaking hands or giving a thumbs up or a wave, like they do round our way, or if she means the gesture priest make towards the congregation, which shouldn't be much like the stiff-armed Nazi salute.

Anyway signs and symbols represent what they are intended to represent.

The same sign and syumbol can mean a whole range ofthinsg. As with the "swastika", which has been a symbol indicating peace and good fortune for thousands of years in India and elsewhere, befiore teh Nazis ripped it off and degraded it.
...................................
It occurs to me that dogs paws are more like fists than hands, so the doggie woudl have been doing a ckenched fist salute anyway, which has rather different conotatations.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:40 PM

I mean the stiff arm Nazi salute. I don't think the casual observer could distinguish it from the Nazi salute. I can't. Whenever I ask anyone to show me what the Nazi salute is, what they do is what the people in church do. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Don't people roundyour way like the bodily contact involved in shaking hands, mg?

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:13 PM

mg, to find peace on this for yourself, try asking your priest about the theology of efficacy. To reduce a coimlicated theological concept to a brief post-- it's about where intent and action converge and about the spiritual effectiveness that occurs or does not occur depedning on where the heart is. One example would be, "when is communion, communion?" Another would be, "when is a gesture meant one way pure because of the strength of its intention, and when is it corrupt by its very nature?" Efficacy is about God's read of the heart-- ask him the RC theology around that.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:43 PM

Well, I don't like shaking hands in church to be honest. But I would rather do it than the other. It is not done in stead of shaking hands..it is like when they want to bless someone like first communion kids or something..well, we didn't do it long ago, and if they want to do it now they can, but they don't need to use that particular gesture, which I truly believe a civilized person should not do. It is horrifying.

And I think the heart can be 100% pure and intentions of the noblest, and still a civilized person should not do certain things that the entire world would see as a symbol of evil.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 08:52 PM

". . . certain things that the entire world would see as a symbol of evil."

The only thing I have ever seen in church—and in a number of different churches—that comes even close to the Nazi salute is the gesture I described in my post above:   arm extended with palm generally outward in a relaxed and easy many, often accompanied by a prayer or blessing, or words such as "Go in peace. Serve the Lord," at the conclusion of the service. I have never seen anything at all offensive in this, and never have. I do not associate the gesture with the Nazi salute and it never occurred to me to do so. In fact, one occasionally sees paintings, Renaissance and otherwise, depicting Jesus making this very same gesture.

The Nazi salute as I have seen it, only in movies, thank God, involves standing at attention while snapping the right arm perfectly straight from shoulder to the tips of the fingers at about a 30 degree angle from the horizontal while, usually at the same time, clicking the heels.

I have never—ever—seen anything that could possibly be reasonably interpreted as a "Nazi salute" in any church I have ever attended.

Perhaps, Mary, you should discuss the matter with the priest in the church you attend and see what he has to say about it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: mg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:28 PM

That is what they do minus the heel clicking. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:41 PM

Intention is what matters when it comes to symbols. Kids sticking their hands up in class often make a gesture very much like a Nazi salute. And all they mean is "Can I go to the lav, miss?" Is that something to be upset about?

I can't imagine not liking shaking hands in Mass. It's sort of a game, sometimes, seeing how many you can get. (And for some people it's quite likely virtually the only physical contact they have with anyone else in the week.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:33 AM

To lighten up a serious subject somewhat:
Irish daytime radio has occasional phone-in quizzes, and one lady was doing superbly until she came to the question "What was Hitler's first name?".
She bombed when she answered "Heil".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 11:38 AM

mg,

I would PM you but you usually sign in as Guest.

I am speaking now as one who has taught religious ed, and who serves on diocesan committees that determine who will or will not be approved to enter seminary and be ordained. I am speaking as the wife of a classically-educated priest with more than 25 years' experience in teaching theology. And I am speaking to you as a sister in Christ.

This issue is a matter of spiritual, theological concern, not one of personal opinion. This is a higher matter-- obedience to what the educated, ordained among you in your faith are putting into practice with the expectation that it will further your spiritual development.

Your personal feelings about this are leading you into spiritual error and, indeed, arrogance; you are setting yourself above your clergy and it sounds like you are spreading your upset through the Body of Christ instead of working for reconciliation as we are all called to do in His Name. This is a human tendencey in all churches, but it's not one to brag about. It's one to seek pastoral wisdom and forgiveness about.

... I think the heart can be 100% pure and intentions of the noblest, and still a civilized person should not do certain things that the entire world would see as a symbol of evil.

When I wrote about efficacy and intention, I used those words in the special ways those words are meant theologically. You are putting personal opinion above theology.

I strongly suggest, again, that you ask your priest about the theology of efficacy-- for your peace of mind and spirit.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 12:33 PM

Catholics aren't quite as authoritarian as that - how the sign of peace is given is a matter of local custom and individual choice rather than prescribed ritual.

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 02:52 PM

"WYSIWYG "
Would this be the same clergy that have been sexually abusing children for at least the last half century - or maybe it is their bishops who have protected them by passing them on to the next parish so they can continue with their "indiscretions".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Man charged for dog showing Nazi salute
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 05:47 PM

Not likely. The priests who have been involved in this sort of activity are a tiny minority and, egregious as such behavior is and as reprehensible as the attempted cover-ups are, they have received press coverage far out of proportion to their numbers.

One can get the impression (especially if one is lying in wait for things like this in order to use it as ammunition to attempt to trash the whole institution) that all clergy are involved. But that just isn't the case. This kind of behavior is probably less prevalent among clergy than it is in the population as a whole, despite the sensationalism of the reports.

Don Firth