Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 10:20 AM

Sorry. The idea that "quality endures" doesn't sit right with me. There are countless examples of the destruction and extinction of quality. In this crazy world, with its powers of media and stress, it is necessary to savour, nuture and promote quality. Including music.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 01:19 PM

Very well put Mike! There is room for everything.   For the same reasons I've never cared for Ayn Rand because her philosophy seemed so cut and dry. Everything is not black and white. I think sometimes my posts sometimes seem as though I am am waffling, but I really believe there is room for both traditionalists and good singer-songwriters.   In my personal time I do listen to other styles of music, including the pop music that my daughter enjoys that has me scratching my head. We can learn from all types of music.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 01:12 PM

I've really enjoyed following this debate, folks. Lots of good stuff to ponder on. Now here's my 2pennorth.

Duke Ellington (so the legend goes) was once asked what kind of music he liked. He replied "I only know two kinds of music: good and bad. I like good music."

I could produce many instances of musicians and singers who are usually pigeon-holed into a specific genre by the music business and the journalists who service it, but whose actual playing, singing (and listening) transcends these artificial divisions. To avoid sending you all to sleep, I'll mention only a few of them.

To start with Jazz. Ellington himself recorded an outstanding album in collaboration with Louis Armstrong (supposedly light-years behind him in hipness) and another masterpiece with John Coltrane (supposedly light-years ahead of him ditto.) Charlie Parker, king of cool, enjoyed listening to "corny" Country Music, and is reported to have jammed enthusiastically after hours with Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys while touring in the midwest. Parker also adored Stravinsky's music, and recorded original compositions and standards backed by a classical string ensemble.

And what about our own backyard - the world of folk and ...let's call it neo-folk ...music and song. What about Bob Copper's admiration for the blues recordings of Sleepy John Estes, and his own recording of Oscar Brown Jr.'s contemporary composition "Rags and Old Iron"? Or Peter Bellamy's passionate commitment to English traditional song, AND to the works of the Rolling Stones? And don't forget the wonderful results of cross-genre collaboration in Shirley Collins's "Anthems in Eden", or in Yo-Yo Ma's "Appalachian Journey".

In my experience, a great many musicians and singers in the folk world have very broad interests and sympathies in music, and are only too happy to demonstrate these influences in their own performance - in sessions after hours, if not on the concert stage. I've heard many a fine contemporary song sung by a die-hard traddy - and quite a few excellent renditions of traditional songs by singers famous for their own compositions. And where in this categorising system do you locate the likes of Cyril Tawney - one of our greatest singer-song-writers, AND one of our greatest interpreters of traditional songs?

Unfortunately, there are influential people in the music business who believe it is in their interest to package every performer in a tidy box, with a familiar generic label clearly visible on it. These people also see it as being in their interest to encourage the record-buying and concert-going public to adopt a passionate commitment to one particular genre of music - and a passionate contempt for every other kind of music. It's called "encouraging brand loyalty" I believe. Sadly, a considerable number of music fans are caught by this con-trick. Happily, most of them grow out of it eventually.

As to the possibility that singer-songwriters will push revivalist folksingers and musicians off the map entirely - don't worry. It's just a phase. This too shall pass away. Quality endures.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 01:09 PM

Russ, I understand your feelings. Of course people cannot attend every festival and their money should go to the festival that they know they will enjoy.   By "tweaking", I was also referring to the simple task of sending feedback. I believe both Old Songs and Philadelphia Folk fests have "guestbooks" or online surveys. Voicing an opinion does not have to cost much! Sure, there is more involvement needed to make change, but you would be surprised how much effect a few comments can have.

I'm not sure about "changing" a culture. To me, folk music has always been a reflection of culture.   The folk revival of the 50's and 60's (and actually 30's and 40's as well) happened because it filled a need and spoke to a wider audience. IF the issue of not having traditional performers in a lineup is felt by enough people, then it will change.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 12:37 PM

Ron,

Thanks for putting up with the hyperbole.

Speaking only for myself, given the logistics and costs of attending, it would take more than "tweaking" (like adding a token traditional musician or two) to get me to one of the big festivals.

More generally,
it sounds to me that a recurring theme in this thread is that the big festivals have become prisoners of their bigness, prisoners of the expectations of the people who put them on and the people who attend them.

To use a term from the business world, they are prisoners of their "culture." Changing a culture is not a simple thing and takes a whole lot more than an "outsider" filling out some comment cards. Sometimes what looks to be a simple "tweak" turns out to require fundamental changes in an organization.

That's not to say it shouldn't or cannot be done. I'm just not gonna put it on MY to-do list.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 12:10 PM

Anahata - you hit the nail on the head with your great point about marketing machines forcing the music down our throats.   

There is one promoter who represents a collective of singer-songwriters who constantly sends me recordings from artists that are very pop oriented and feature all sorts of rock settings for their songs. He is always writing me asking me why I won't play his artists on my radio show.   I always reply that my program is a folk music radio show called Traditions, and the artists that he represents do not come from the same tradition. I try to honor the traditional music and play artists that write songs who come from the same roots. I go to conferences for the Folk Alliance and hear so many musicians that I could never make a connection with what I've grown to know as folk music. They are merely looking for a break and feel that the avenues that promote folk music are there way to fame and fortune.   Most of these types are what I would call the "singer-songwhiner" variety.

As you say, traditional musicians are performing for the love of the music. They do not get the higher paid jobs.   Perhaps they need a better PR person. Then again, perhaps they are doing just fine as they are.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: treewind
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:52 AM

So you did, and made some good points. I did read it too, but forgot that it was you who wrote it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:25 AM

Anahata,

But I did talk about traditional performers in this context. My first post. Honest.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:25 AM

"twaddle"? That is a new one!    Santa, the discussion was on folk festivals, not pub singing. The folk music that I was thinking about are the body of work songs, lullabyes, and songs people would sing as part of their daily lives.   What I was trying to point out is that over the last 100 years or so it has become easier to turn on a radio or listen to someone else make music.

Russ, your points are well taken. I did not mean to come across as "blaming the victim". I do think that support should be thrown to the traditional festivals as I said in previous post. I had the honor of being invited to MC a concert at the Eisteddfod festival this year. Wonderful music, but less than 200 people paid to attend. Events like these need support. It was a wonderful weekend of music.

Since this discussion started about a large scale festival in Ontario, I was directing my comments on what can be done to make change at events like these. I do think that festivals like Old Songs and Philadelphia Folk Festival are committed to giving it's audience what THEY want to hear, instead of some festivals that present what they THINK the audience wants to hear. Using those two festivals as examples, each of them solicit feedback and they do respond. "Fix" a broken festival? I'm not sure it is broken Russ. Tweaking would be more like it.

" "Is it right to ignore the living tradition facet of folk music?"
Of course.
When I listen to NPR instead of the other available radio drek,
when I buy a Jean Ritchie CD instead of one by Britney Spears,
when I shop at my local farmers' market instead of the local instantiation of a mega-chain
I am "ignoring" the alternatives. Once again this doesn't register on my guilt radar."

Russ, you did a much better job of making my point than I did. Jean Ritchie IS a living tradition. She also writes songs. SHE is a singer-songwriter.   Yes, I consider her folk music. That is my point about folk music - it is a living tradition. Why is Jean Ritchie considered "folk" by you and me, but neither one of us would say the same thing about Britney. THAT is where the living tradition aspect comes in.   There are many singer-songwriters like Jean Ritchie that come out of that tradition and continue to perpetuate.

Ron

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: treewind
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:20 AM

Ron and Greg - I think the reason why it's the singer songwriters who are monopolizing the festivals, rather than traddies or Spike Jones imitators or whatever, is because what they are imitating is pop music. By definition, pop is where the money is and what most people listen to, even if that choice is 'informed' mostly by having it rammed down their throats by the marketing machine. My view of the worst type of S-S at clubs and festivals is that thay want to be pop stars and are desperately hoping to get lucky. I don't think traditional musicians or singers have such aspirations, perhaps because we put our choice of musical style first (or maybe we're just more realistic!!!).

It's hard work running a festival and making it pay, or even just avoiding bankruptcy, and the easy way out is to go for what you know will bring in the punters. The few good traditional festivals are run by people who have an incredibly detailed knowledge of their music, which means they have to know a lot about performers whom most people have never heard of, have to reach an audience that are very thinly distributed around the country, and won't get much help from the media in doing so.

Now Russ -
I'm a musician in the traditional style, and I'd like to talk about traditional performers in this context, but what is there to say? Practice what you preach!

Oh - and Midchuck: you start with a over simplistic assumption, and then go on to demonstrate why that assumption is too simplistic. Even in what most would call the solidly tradition world, I've been made acutely aware recently of some incredibly fine-grained nit-picking between 'traditional' and 'revival' British folk music.
There's a whole spectrum, of course. Or at least there should be, which is where we came in....

Anahata

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Santa
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:00 AM

So we have become used to watching music rather than making it? What a load of twaddle. Just who filled the pubs where people sang in The Old Days? Not every one in Hardy Country had their own fiddle and a fine singing voice and the skill to make music. The great majority of the population didn't make music then, any more than they do now. I have severe doubts that every pub had its own performing circle, with regular sessions and spontaneous jigs. The Chas and Dave version of history.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:49 AM

Ron,

Enjoyed your reply.

The devil (not the caf) made me do it.

If I may reply respectfully to some of your points....

"IF the reason traditional musicians are not being booked for festivals is because of singer-songwriters, it stands to reason that the discussion would try to examine why that is happening."

That's exactly what I did in my first post, which was ignored.
(Which is not unusual. Spaw, one of the few catters who paid any attention to my posts, seems to have disappeared. Not that his attention was always welcome.)
In my first post I tried to do two things.
1. let the posters in this thread know that if they cannot find "traditional" music, they're not looking very hard.
2. Sketch an explanation why they cannot find it in the places they have looked by saying some vague things about the dynamics of "big" festivals.

"If the people you know "who care most about traditional music" (are you insinuating that the rest of us don't care that much???) don't bother to attend festivals that don't feature traditional music, then perhaps you creating a very isolated and unfriendly scene. Instead of welcoming and trying to perpetuate, the music gets played in a vacuum."

Yes, that's what I was insinuating. But I felt that insinuation was an improvement over the first draft of my post where I just flat out said it. But what else should I conclude? I spend my entire summer listening to and playing with traditional musicians and I only attend a fraction of the festivals which feature them. There's so much more in the world of festivals than the Philly Folk Fest and Old Songs.

Also, your response sounds like a "blame the victim" explanation to me.
Festival A features traditional musicians. Festival B features singer-songwriters. I vote with my dollars and choose festival A.
If I (and all my fellow attendees at festival A) am guilty of creating a "very isolated and unfriendly scene" well golly so are all the attendees at festival B. We are all guilty, guilty, guilty.... of acting in accordance with our personal preferences. On my guiltometer that doesn't even register.

Should I try to get festival B to include more traditional musicians? Been there. Turns out the people who run festival B are just as enthusiastic about and committed to their performers as the people who run festival A. It ain't broke. Why would they want to fix it? Who in their right mind would want to listen to an old man playing solo fiddle anyway?

Re-defining traditional music?
That's a whole 'nother thread.

"Is it right to ignore the living tradition facet of folk music?"
Of course.
When I listen to NPR instead of the other available radio drek,
when I buy a Jean Ritchie CD instead of one by Britney Spears,
when I shop at my local farmers' market instead of the local instantiation of a mega-chain
I am "ignoring" the alternatives. Once again this doesn't register on my guilt radar.

"But to deny that singer-songwriters exist and that there is an audience that enjoys that type of music is really looking at the issue with blinders on."

I didn't deny the existence of anything or anybody. I have no theoretical/conceptual/philosophical/moral/ethical/whatever problems with singer-songwriters. Some of my best friends are singer-songwriters. Some of my best friends attend their concerts and buy their CDs. May all of them live long and prosper. I have even seen my fair share of singer-songwriters.

But with (very) finite discretionary income and free time I must pick and choose.

Russ (still the GUEST after all these years)

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:42 AM

Greg, if you've been reading these posts I don't think I've ever said that "anything" is folk music just to suits my "arguement". I wholeheartedly agree that traditional music by definition has a set of criteria that would exclude "authors". I would also argue that the "traditional" folk music that everyone has been missing, really isn't traditional music at all and never was. A strong case can be made that true FOLK music cannot be set down on recordings or performed at festivals. As soon as a microphone and a stage is no longer FOLK music. What is being recorded or peformed is merely an imitation of the song since it is no longer being performed in its natural setting. It is much like going to a zoo and seeing an animal in a cage as opposed to living in the wild. Folk songs and the folk process is a different discussion that shouldn't bog down this thread.

The term "folk music" has been altered in the last 50 years or so. People have become used to "watching" folk music instead of making it. Perhaps that is part of the folk process too? I do feel that circumstances of the 20th century have altered the folk process.   Technology has created a genre of music and evolved a living tradition.

Folk Festivals, at least here in the U.S., have evolved. I too would prefer to see more traditional music showcased. A combination of public acceptance and promoters needs have led to the proliferation of singer-songwriters.   I agree with you, you can't just call something folk music and it becomes folk music.   I try to look for a thread that links the music to the tradition.

The bottom line is that is merely a perception. You have your tastes, I have mine. If everyone spent less time worrying about titles and working to find ways to present what we have accepted as "traditional" music, then I think we would all be happy.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:13 AM

I think it would be important to try to convince and help festival organisers to not overlook the tradtional music component in their selections of artists and workshops. The way to do that is somehow get involved in that process - getting in touch with those artistic directors and voice your requests and offer suggestions - you will find them quite interested in what you have to say.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:08 AM

There is not much that I can add to Ron's excellent post, Russ, other than to say that you appear to start from the assumption that your opponents should accept your definition of the word "traditional". If you successfully sever new traditions from old ones, you will effectively demote the old songs into obscurity and irrelevance. I do not want to see that happen - and it is pretty evident that I am not alone on this one.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:08 AM

Ron Olesko:
your comments are interesting,but they seem to contain a whole set of strange assumptions. Well, to make my position clear, I dont deny that singer/songwriters exist, and I dont deny that some of them are writing great songs.What I do wonder is why they have taken over some folk festivals, to the point of excluding the folk music that started the whole business. Of course, you or anyone could counter what I say by saying"Ah, but what they are doing is folk music".Well, people do say that. Some agree,some dont.You can say anything is folk music if it suits your argument.
   I just think that if anyone was going to take over the folk scene, it would have been more fun if it was Spike Jones imitators, rather than acoustic guitar strumming song writers telling us either how miserable they are, or how they think the old days should have been, brave boys, haul away.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:55 AM

Russ, try the decaf before you post!!

There is a very good reason why MOST of the contributers have been talking about singer-songwriters. IF the reason traditional musicians are not being booked for festivals is because of singer-songwriters, it stands to reason that the discussion would try to examine why that is happening.

Your last paragraph really points out the problem. If the people you know "who care most about traditional music" (are you insinuating that the rest of us don't care that much???) don't bother to attend festivals that don't feature traditional music, then perhaps you creating a very isolated and unfriendly scene. Instead of welcoming and trying to perpetuate, the music gets played in a vacuum.

Re-defining traditional music? Perhaps. The 20th century featured a very unique "folk revival" and to ignore the singer-songwriter movement that grew out of it is very wrong. There has always been a knock against many of the collectors who would pick and choose the songs they chose to collect - often to match their own political or moral agendas. Is it right to ignore the living tradition facet of folk music?

Of course you should support the festivals that feature traditional music - that is a very good vote.   But to deny that singer-songwriters exist and that there is an audience that enjoys that type of music is really looking at the issue with blinders on.

I wholeheartedly support and actively persue the perpetuation of traditional music.   Keeping an interest and exploration alive is very important. The rewards are many, but that is another discussion. My point is that we can't ignore singer-songwriters and the contributions that are being made.   Diversity is something that I feel makes the music interesting.

Ron

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:30 AM

RANT
====

This thread illustrates perfectly the issue it was ostensibly created to discuss.

Though it begins with a note bemoaning the dearth of "traditional" musicians at unnamed festivals, almost none of the contributors actually talk about traditional musicians. The focus is almost entirely on the singer-songwriter side of the equation. The efforts of most of the contributors are attempts to define or redefine or "traditional" in a way that is vague enough to include the contributor's favorite singer-songwriters.

If the people who care enough to contribute to this thread don't care enough about traditional musicians to actually talk about them (which is free) why would anybody expect the festival promoters to care enough to present them and the target audience to care enough to pay to see them?

It is also a perfect example of a popular approach to dealing with other issues. Rather than deal with the issue, change the definitions.

The people I know who care most about traditional musicians don't bother to attend the festivals that don't feature them, much less worry about the balance of their lineups. They know where the traditional musicians are and vote with their dollars.

Russ (the grumpy guest)

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 12:31 AM

John of Elsie's Band, I beg forgiveness. I have to admit that most of the songs that I sing and enjoy, are songs that were written in the last 100 years. Much of what would be considered purely traditional is too stuffy for me. What I look for is music that might be called approachable - songs that I can sing. I tend to prefer songs that have been around for a while, with a good number of songs that I know and have made part of my life.
When I think "singer-songwriter," I think of somebody who writes songs that only he/she can perform. I can only take that kind of song in small doses. I used to say the same about old ballads, but I've developed a tolerance and understanding for them, and sometimes almost enjoy them. Some people do a great job with ballads, and I can listen to them forever - Judy Cook and DebC are two prime examples.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 10:17 AM

Merci Arnie and Willie-O.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 10:15 AM

Peter, I hope that I've been clear. In my books Trad. performers ARE and Singer-Songwriters CAN both be folk.

Some would disagree, but that's where I'm coming from.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 10:13 AM

b.w.
It's true that those performers singer/songwriters you've done house concerts for are heavily influenced in traditional music which is evident in their music. You are presenting fine performers and by doing so contributing in a big way to the life of this small music communtity.   I consider the presenters, radio hosts, volunteers the heros in this community and without the likes of people like you this music community would be in terrible shape. So - keep up the good work and enthusiam. Carry on.
Arnie

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Midchuck
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 10:06 AM

If we assume that the ranks of "folksingers" consist entirely of (A) strict traditionalist singers, who do nothing that isn't so old that the authorship is unknown (somewhat of a dying breed), and (B) young people who compose long "songs" about their personal unhappiness, usually with no discernable melody, accompanying themselves on guitar by endlessly strumming one or two chords with a different strange tuning that it takes them half an hour to get in to, for each new song (a breed that seems to be proliferating like guppies), and that there's no middle ground, then where do we put

Tom Russell

Ian Tyson

Utah Phillips

the late Stan Rogers

the late Jim Ringer

the late Kate Wolf

John Prine

the late Steve Goodman

etc....?

Maybe if none of my favorites are folk singers, I'm not a folk fan at all, and I don't belong on Mudcat...

Peter.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 09:35 AM

bw: in your list of "had Eileen McGann, David Francey. We have 3 more in the works, for Katherine Wheatley, Rick Fines, and Dave Clarke." you have only one trad performer (presuming you mean Eileen)? I beg to differ. Look at where some of those folks are coming from. Rick Fines writes his own songs but has a virtuostic and encyclopaedic understanding of traditional blues guitar. Dave Clarke is really a bluegrass picker par excellence. Francey (my new neighbour whom I haven't yet spoken to) is clearly influenced, lyrically and tunewise, by his Scottish background, and as was mentioned, also sings old songs. (Katherine Wheatley I'll grant you is a contemporary songwriter, but you booked her for the same reason I did--she is very very good.)

Ian Robb, I think, made an interesting observation in his Sing Out! column: a lot of folk performers start out performing trad and when they turn professional switch to doing more and more original material.
Not too many stay in the same idiom throughout their careers. Nevertheless, their roots are still important influences on the material they choose and how they perform it.

I don't think you have anything to apologize for--that's a pretty great lineup you've booked!

best
W-O

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 09:24 AM

After reading all these threads, it seems that the prevailing theme is "different strokes for different folks". (Sorry Sly!) I'm seeing notes from people who love new songs, people who love songs with chorus singing, songs without instrumentation, diverse cultures, "name" performers, "unknown" performers, and every permutation in between.

I think this thread shows the beauty and depth of folk music. Instead of moaning the festivals that no longer program the music we feel appropriate, perhaps we should be throwing more support to the festivals that do. I know it is tough for a musician when they feel the door is shut, but perhaps they are looking in the wrong places. You can't stop evolution. Festivals are run by individuals. These individuals are judged on their performance.   Perhaps the best way to vote is to support the festival of your choice.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 09:17 AM

We have house concerts in our home sometimes....we've had Eileen McGann, David Francey. We have 3 more in the works, for Katherine Wheatley, Rick Fines, and Dave Clarke. All of these people write wonderful songs, with fine tunes, and lyrics that move me. I think that here in Canada we have some incredible singer-songwriters and I am thrilled and honoured to call them my friends. They have enriched my life in many ways.

It is telling that I only have one trad. artist on the above list. I started this thread, and I am guilty as charged. We are going to have to do some serious thinking about this. We have managed to balance gender and styles of music (Celtic, blues, other) - but haven't addressed the trad - songwriter balance.

Talking this out, reading your comments, has definitely influenced me. McGrath, I think you pushed the right buttons. Thank you all.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 08:56 AM

I've certainly enjoyed this thread but I must confess that I haven't managed to figured out what "traditional" means in its context. No such problems with (the dreaeded) "singer/songwriter".

Anyway,
I know of lots of festivals where the performers are predominantly what I think of as "traditional."

They are all in the southeastern US.

Just a few examples off the top of my head: WV State Folk Festival (Glenville WV) Vandalia Gathering (Charleston WV) Seedtime on the Cumberland (Whitesville KY), Mount Airy Bluegrass and Old-Time Fiddlers' Convention (Mount Airy NC), etc.

Whether the other participants in this thread would agree that performers like Lester McCumbers (WV) and Lee Sexton (KY) are traditional, I can assure you that they are NOT singer/songwriters.
I can also guaranteee that you won't run into many singer/songwriters at these events.

As for the singer/songwriter plague, it seems to me that no matter what the attitudes and motives were in the beginning, the people who now run and book the sorts of festivals referred to in this thread got trapped in the sort of CEO mentality that thinks that growth is essential, growth is good, and bigger is better.

Trouble is, big festivals require big audiences. Big audiences require big names. Traditional musicians, almost by definition, cannot possibly be big enough these days. People like Ralph Stanley and Natalie McMaster are the perfect exceptions which prove the rule.

The point is that these days if you are going to feature traditional music at a festival you seriously have to think outside the box. But big festivals don't reward thinking outside the box.

Most people involved in the big festivals either don't remember or never knew that in the "old days" folk music was all about thinking outside the box. In the old days you didn't invite Granny Riddle to your festival because you thought she'd be a big draw. You invited her because her music deserved attention no matter what its commercial potential.

A notable exception to the above was this year's National Folklife Festival in DC. The Smithsonian brought in truckloads of truly great truly traditional musicians.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 01:22 AM

More and more I'm finding myself listening to singers with whom I completely agree. The causes they sing about are the same ones I'm willing to march for, to write letters to the papers about, to do anything in my power to support. And they are great people - most of them - BUT the poetry is gone from the lyrics, the good melodies are just not there - most of the singer-songwriter songs just don't make it for me. Maybe I'm just an old crank but I haven't yet tired of the old songs.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Burke
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:44 PM

I discovered 'folk' as a genre to find the music I like when I attended my first folk festival (not Old Songs). What grabbed me was all the people who were saying, "And the chorus goes."

Looking back I realized that the line up was soloists who encourage participation like Gordon Bok, Bill Staines & Michael Cooney, some traditional English, Irish bands, and a little Cajun. As I've gone along I've discovered other aspects of tradional music like ballads that one would not sing along on.

My main activity, however, is still group singing. All the places I go regularly have enough participation that a singer who objected would be something of a miss match.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:29 PM

Chambers Dictionary - "cop" (as a noun) "a capture or arrest(as in the phrase "a fair cop"); a catch (as in the phrase not much cop - of little value, not worth much".)

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:15 PM

"Not much cop" - means useless, disapointing. It's a very commonly used expression in England. No idea where it comes from. Somebody round here will probably come up with an answer. (I tried an online dictionary of slang but it didn't have it.)

...

True, choruses are fun - but any number of wonderful traditional songs don't have any chorus. I suppose if you've heard them often enough you can sing along with them (though it's best to be careful about that, it's not always welcome to the singer or the other listeners).

"...maybe as people are more passive in their music consumption, especially if they don't sing, the importance of a good tune just becomes a whole lot less. I'd have thought it might work the other way round.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Burke
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:54 PM

This has been interesting, but I don't see my complaint mentioned. In my opinion too many of the people writing music today don't write good tunes. I don't know what the words are because I can't stand listening to the music long enough to pay attention.

I first noticed this when I signed up to an early e-mail list devoted to 'folk music.' I feel like I live in a backwater & wanted a source of who to listen to apart from my annual trip to Old Songs. Lots of performers were discussed as being really hot. Every time I actually got hold of a recording of these folks, I found I could not listen to it. Then I reread the charter (or whatever) for the list & saw that it was intended to be discussion about singer songwriters. It was really only after this that I started making a distinction.

One of the first Real Audio feeds I found was the 'folk' program out of Kent State. I haven't listened in a long time & don't know if it's still on. It seemed to be mostly singer/songwriters & the list of singers I don't care about grew. I did discover a couple that I really liked as well.

Somewhere in all this I actually caught some of these singer/songwriters in a life show. In a live venue I sometimes found them very entertaining. They were funny, good guitar players & did have good things to say in their songs. It was just that there was no strong tune & taking a CD home from the performance was a waste of money. I really think some are almost more performance artists. I suspect there are people I've heard on the Web & disliked that I may very well enjoy live.

A few years ago I attended Clearwater, Old Songs and Falcon Ridge just a couple of weeks apart. I had a really good time at all of them. It's only at Old Songs that I was exposed to anyone who's recordings I wanted to own. I knew when I went that Falcon Ridge was more SS than traditional. I went wanting to give them a good try. It was the bands I liked most and just in general what went on at the workshop stage.

I think it was on the shuttle to Clearwater that I came to understand part of my disconnect. I told another passenger that I wanted songs that had choruses or that I could learn to sing along with. This other passenger told me he likes message songs & doesn't even notice the music. I think maybe that as people are more passive in their music consumption, especially if they don't sing, the importance of a good tune just becomes a whole lot less.

There's a coffeehouse series locally that books about 20 shows a year. The person who does the booking has taste that matches mine well enough that I have seldom been disappointed. I'll often go just based on the ad. I consistently enjoy Old Songs. There's a venue farther away that I only attend when I already know the performer.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:26 PM

"...that is not much cop. "   I have not heard that phrase before. Could you explain it to me please?

Good points McGrath. I went to the "Newport" folk festival, or rather the revived version that exists today. The year I went they had one main stage, a small "side" stage by the gate that only had music before the main stage opened, no workshops, and very little traditional music.   Hardly the Newport Folk Festival of legend!    All festivals evolve, but when they become nothing put reasons to make money there is a big problem.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:19 PM

Agreed then. It is possible to write a good song about pretty well anything. Including navels.

And it is possible to write a bad song about pretty well anything.

What matters isn't what category a song falls into, but whether it works as a song.

The advantage old songs have over new songs is that there is normally noone around who has a particular reason to sing an old song that is not much cop.

To get back to the track of the thread, though - if festival organisers are ignoring and excluding music that ought to have a place, the answer is to give it a place, by organising fringe festivals that fills the gap. In my experience that seems to happen. Sometimes the fringe gets bigger than the original festival. Sidmouth started out as a dance festival, and the singing was very much of a fringe. Festivals that are all concerts get surrounded by sessions, by singarounds, by mini-concerts.

As Joe Hill said "Don't mourn. Organise."

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: lamarca
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:08 PM

There were nine in the bed,
And the little one said,
"Roll over..."

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:07 PM

Naval gazing opens up a whole new perspective - see the Trafalgar thread.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:05 PM

One of the things that I enjoy so much about Mudcat (which others may hate) is that there IS a wide-ranging discussion of music... not just folk, blues and gospel, but country and even pop songs... We may be odd bedfellows, but we're all in here together..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: lamarca
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:02 PM

I think that the ability to make recordings in a small studio and (fairly) cheaply produce your own CD has contributed to the increase in singer-songwriter bookings recently. Not that I'm yearning for the days when a musician had to impress one of a few recording labels in order to be heard at all, but I think a lot of people record their music today (whether original or traditional) without a lot of quality control.

Festival producers, folk DJs, folk club bookers, etc, are simply deluged with an incredible number of CDs from hopeful artists that are the musical equivalent of Snoopy's "It was a dark and a stormy night..." unsolicited manuscripts. Each week, we listen to Mary Cliff's folk music radio program "Traditions" here in DC, and wonder from what "tradition" the bulk of the music she's playing comes - much of it by solo songwriters with backup rock bands doing completely original songs to tunes that have no link to any roots music or traditions that we can discern.

But Mary is just playing CDs by the performers who are being booked by the local clubs, and CDs she's received in the mail, and CDs handed out by performers at the Folk Alliance. She, like most of the booking agents (many of whom are unpaid volunteers), can't possibly listen to and screen all of the material that's exploded onto the scene.

Even if self-produced, a lot of the original "songwhiners" have highly produced, slickly packaged recordings of the sort that used to have an airplay niche on "Alternative Rock" or "Album Oriented" FM radio, before Clear-Channel Communications began to buy up every radio station in the country and have nationally centralized playlists. What's the difference between Jewel and a 30-something blond songwriter with a plugged-in Ovation, a backup band and a folder full of personal angst songs? Except for a major label recording contract, not much - but one is called "Pop" and gets major airplay, and the other is handing out her CDs to people in a hotel hallway at the latest Folk Alliance conference.

A solo singer who combines traditional and recently written material may not sound "professional" to an Artistic Director who is more used to the flood of John Hiatt sound-alikes with their backup rock bands, or the latest Irish supergroup with mile-a-minute electric jigs and reels. Add to this the inevitable crop of traditional song recordings by well-meaning amateurs with limited self-awareness of their own musical abilities, and it's no wonder bookers tend to stick to the familiar, tried-and-true crowd pleasers (and their imitators) who combine flashy instrumental work and lyrics that a younger, free-spending demographic raised on Jewel, Joan Osborne, Julian Lennon, etc, can relate to.

As Theodore Sturgeon once said "99% of everything is crap" - and traditional or contemporary, there are a heck of a lot more recordings by performers of varying levels of talent to wade through when deciding who to book and who to reject...

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 06:49 PM

Thanks Jerry! I think we are both on the same wavelength.   I don't believe in generalities or stereotypes and I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been with the term.

I do think it is fair to offer criticism. I came up with that phrase a few years ago after listening to a number of singer-songwriters who began to sound the same. Introspective beyond the point of being accessible to others, at least in my opinion. If you look at the playlist of my show, you will see numerous artists who would be labeled as singer-songwriters as well as traditional musicians. I use the term, largely in jest, but as a way to critique someone who probably could write a better song. It is not a generalization by any means.

With that said, I would have to answer McGrath's question that yes, it probably would be considered a naval-gazing song BUT, that doesn't mean it is would be dismissed.   There are hundreds of introspective songs that I love that I would not call "singer-songwhiney".

A GOOD introspective naval-gazing song would give the listener something back. Perhaps it would be some sort of self-discovery that the listener would find a common bond with, or it might help create an understanding of other's problems. Those are from the minds of singer-songwriters.

The BAD introspective naval-gazing song usually confuses the listener because the situation is so foreign and self-serving that it helps no one but the singer. It is the usual "oh woe is me" and all my cliched troubles. It is also an artist who does not offer a unique perspective or sound, but rather tries too hard and too unsuccessfully to sound like someone else.

There is nothing wrong with being angry or introspective. I think Pete Morton has some great songs in that vein.

Again, I'm sorry for drifting this from the original topic.   It does come back to my original statement that we need variety and diversity to make for interesting festivals, performances, CD's, etc.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 06:45 PM

Well, perhaps not everyone, just all maids who live at a distance, but navel-gazers don't even appeal that far.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 06:38 PM

Kevin McG

No - because the first line of "I live not where I love" appeals, in terms, to everyone who has shared the experience described, to join in and assist.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 06:29 PM

It's a subtle difference to be sure, but it seems to me that one difference between today's whinefest/angry-young-man-fest is the object of the whining -- and, perhaps, today's less clever use of language in the conveyance of what few "bigger themes" there are.

The themes of yesteryear seemed to be more universal -- the "I" and "me" of yesterday's songwriter were actually, in effect, an "everyman" -- and the struggles portrayed, whether "big theme" or mundane, were the struggles of us all. Today's "I" and "Me" are actually, literally that. And I find myself not relating.

Of course, the ultimate unfairness in my observation is that we currently only listen to the best of yesteryear, while today's writing -- good and bad -- is happening around us.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 06:01 PM

Would "I live not where I love" count as a navel-gazing song is someone came out with it new today? And if not, why not? Or much of Jacques Brel?

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 05:31 PM

I stand corrected, Ron: my apologies. I guess I wasn't reacting to your use of the term, but to generalities that I've heard from some traddies over the years that tend to dismiss songwriters as navel-gazers. There certainly are navel-gazers and song whiners, but they don't last very long... it seems to be a stage that most songwriters go through. I went through a profound stage, when I though I was wise beyond my ears, but fortunately, it didn't last long. Learning a craft, as songwriting is, usually starts out with expressing what we know best... ourselves. That's probably why you hear so many young songwriters writing self-centered songs, with nary a trace of a sense of humor. Unless someone quickly grows out of that stage, you won't hear them five years later, because most people have a limited tolerance for that kind of music (myself included,) and they won't find a place to sing. Hopefully, they'll discover how limiting we all are as a subject of songs.

I've also got my knickers in a twist when someone said, why is it that people who sing traditional folk music are such terrible singers?

Anyway, Ron, I have the greatest respect for you and your taste and love of folk music... sorry I came on so strong.. I know that we are brothers in folk music. I wasn't speaking for myself or my own music, but all the wonderful songwriters we BOTH love and admire.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Mooh
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:12 PM

There were a couple of acts at this year's aforementioned OCFF conference which wouldn't get booked at a folk festival if I had anything to do with the booking, not because they weren't good, but because they weren't folk, IMHO. I listened, and decided that in a folk festival atmosphere I would hope to find another act on another stage, and leave the bitching about it to others. I do find incessant singing-your-diary songwriting a little irritating, but some of those writers actually mature in time. This too was evident at the OCFF conference.

In my humble little local celtic roots (note: "roots") festival the definition of folk narrows somewhat compared to perhaps Mariposa, but only because the artistic direction has chosen that emphasis. Drop "celtic" or "roots" from the title and you get a different animal altogether. It's a judgement call on the part of the artistic directors whether something is traditional, celtic, roots, or singer-songwriter, and whether the act actually performs as expected. Our own AD has a band which has strayed from celtic once or twice but stayed roughly within the roots definition with "in the tradition" singer-songwriting. In any event the song arrangements are fresh and hopefully unusual whether they be new or old songs.

However, there is a shrinking of trad music presenters it seems, especially outside the urban centres. Sure there's Ottawa, Goderich, and Cambridge sustained by creative and insightful booking, but others like Kincardine Scottish, Collingwood, and Windsor suffer from uninformed management more than a lack of audience interest. There is a lot more to presenting trad music than finding pounding bass and drums, or droning pub songs, or quasi-trad songwriting. Lunasa and Crucible are two which would meet my criteria.

To answer the original question about creative interplay between trad and singer-songwriters, yes it can happen. You can have both and still please the audience, or you can present an act which combines the two (Natalie MacMaster, Simon Mayor & Hilary James, Bobby Watt, Dougie Maclean, Barra MacNeils, Tannahill Weavers, J.P. Cormier, etc). I believe there are acts around to fit the bill but that ADs are less than imaginative about booking, whether by bias, budget, or the false security of playing it safe.

But, and it's a big but, we are in the midst of an explosion of both singer-songwriters and recording availability. Everyone with a guitar and a voice is recording songs, and many are marketing them themslves.
There's a glut and festivals are reflecting that reality. Too bad really that it doesn't push the current tripe off the radio, but there it is.

I would have appreciated more trad at the OCFF, but maybe what goes around comes around.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:58 PM

Jerry, don't get your knickers in a twist. I think "singer song-whiners" is pretty good. Obviously you and me and anyone else can list a few zappy, amusing, hard-hitting, wonderful etc etc song-writers: but a glance round the scene does reveal a large faintly pulsating mass of songwriters whose main modus operandi is mixing self-absorption with moaning about things. And while it's a free country and I defend anybody's write to self-expression, I also defend my own right to do something else with my time,rather than listening.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:39 PM

No Jerry, I would not catagorize ANY of the individuals you mentioned as singer-songwhiners. Please read my post carefully. I did not generalize as you are saying. I believe I was making a distinction and you may have missed my point.

I was not being "intellectually lazy" and I thought I was clear. I guess not.

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:26 PM

Singer song-whiners is a cute name. Would you call Bill Staines a singer-songwhiner? Or Gordon Bok? Why is it that people so grossly ove-generalize songwriters as being navel-gazers or whiners? I guess it beats thinking. Is Sy Kahn a navel-gazer or whiner? Or Stan Rogers? There are so many recently written great songs that are neither navel-gazing or whining that it's just intellectual laziness to characterize all songwiters that way.

Jerry .. neither whining nor navel-gazing

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:24 PM

Good point Greg.   Your last question is very interesting. I'm not sure if "singer-songwriters" were ever a "novelty", but I look back at festivals such as Newport or Philadelphia, and while traditional music had a much bigger representation back in the early days, I think singer-songwriters were always important. Perhaps the issue is how we define "folksinger". For years, Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, and Bob Dylan were called "folksingers".   

Even the Weaver's sang a great portion of material from what we would today label as "singer-songwriters".

Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM

Hey, Ron, my nearly 50th birthday is tomorrow. I feel like an old folksinger, and proud of it!

~b.w.