NPR - degradation of language & music

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:52 PM

mollycoddle
obfustication
smarmy
quark
antihistimine
constant velocity joint
dribble
poleaxed
thermal features
heyoka
isenglass
boondoggle
defunct

"throat singing", sean nos, the Sacred Harp, Bartok and Fleck, the MJQ, John Hurt, takseem, skirling,
talking blues, rap.

good night all.


CB

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:51 PM

Shakespeare's neologisms are not parallel to those of rap. His were constructive and evolved against an aesthetic that added insight; the degradation of beauty and the exaltation of hate does not do that.

A

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:47 PM

I hope some of you will be able to listen to this now that I've added the correct link. There are a few reviews of it Amazon.com one of which reads:

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly

"Linguist and show-tune aficionado McWhorter (Losing the Race) explores why American language and music are no longer crafted, honored or even well-regarded means of expression. The expected social formality of an earlier era, he argues, was eroded by the individualistic, multicultural values of the 1960s. The result: we talk rather than lecture, and we choose 50 Cent over Mahler.

"By unearthing Victorian-era speeches, early 20th-century newspapers and presidential addresses from the family Bush, McWhorter shows just how American English has, over time, taken on a permanent casual Friday uniform. McWhorter, who is African-American, suggests that hip-hop, spoken-word poetry and black English are the current defining modes of expression, with their fight-the-power messages of distrusting authority and "keeping it real."

"But, he notes, in contrast to the gentle, erudite oratories of the past, "[p]oetry that shouts can only be a sideshow. It cannot inspire a nation." Laden with contemporary pop culture references and humorous asides, this is an entertaining polemic that brings linguistics to the people, while lamenting the populist mentality that has made being cool more critical than being articulate."

Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:30 PM

I suspect scholars in Shakespeare's day deplored and denounced his neologisms. The change we're going through today is, I admit, a little intense. For the first time in history, that I know of, popular music is in the hands of people who don't give a rat's ass about language or nuance.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:05 PM

Neither music nor English is a dead and unchanging language. To expect it to linger, unchanged, to the forms of ones youth is folly. One might as well expect modern day Americans to comprehend Old English -- or Middle English, for that matter. Heck, one can't even get most people to understand Shakespeare.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 10:04 PM

Sorry about the link, but it works for me. Ya haf ta scrole down real fer a'for ya see it.:-) This should work if you past it in your Real Audio Player:

http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?prgCode=TOTN&showDate=29-Oct-2003&segNum=2&NPRMediaPref=RM

If they take it off of that page, one may find it in the archives for Talk of the Nation, 29 Oct. 2003.

Interesting comments, so far, folks,

kat

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: freightdawg
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 09:20 PM

Pardon me if I'm splitting hairs here, but is it okay to link language and music together? I would agree that there is an acceptable or approved manner of making words into sentences, sentences into paragraphs, and paragraphs into stories. But once mastered, these "rules" can be broken to great effect (I think of Ogden Nash or e.e. cummings). But does music have the same rules? Even as much as I dislike certain forms of music, it appears to me that those artists use the same basic rules as the artists I do like, just in a different style or meter or at a volume that is felt more than heard. To say that language degrades to me is to say that people are becoming insensitive to the basic fundamentals of speech and writing. (aside, something the British have accused us Yanks of doing for years and years). But how does music degrade in the same manner? I must admit I was unable to open the link as well, maybe he makes that point very clear. If so, I apologise. My observation with the general, overall music scene is that individuality and true creativity are being smothered in the name of commercialism. This is not the case in the smaller arenas where creativity is fostered, but once you "make it big" you have to become just like everyone else. There just are not that many Johnny Cash's out there who are willing to stand up to the mega-super-monolithic companies.

Cheers to the many Mudcatters who make Kat's comments correct: those who care deeply about the language of music, and the flowing music of both written and vocalized language.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:55 PM

I'm really very disappointed not to be able to hear this. John McWhorter is a wonderful writer on language, the author (among others) of The Power of Babel, a book about HOW and WHY languages develop, and how they relate to each other. One of his points (a little overstated, but it makes itself clear in context) is that "There ARE no languages. It's ALL dialects!" Vastly entertaining writing, as well as being informative. He clearly enjoys staking out a provocative, if not confrontational, position.

Prof. McWhorter is (I have to say this in order to give what follows its context) a black man. Although I don't think he'd use those words. But he was the center of a great deal of controversy a year or two ago, when he wrote a book with the premise that affirmative action is not only unconstitutional and wrong but harmful to the black/Negro/African-American race. As might be expected, he was promptly attacked for this from the liberal end of things, as well as from many, many of his own race. On the other hand, I've heard quotes from other very prominent black men that they think he's right. I heard part of an interview with him about that book, and he makes what seems to me a very reasoned and convincing case.

I need to get hold of this book about degradation of language and music.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:47 PM

Hey, Bobert, that solar flare is heading your way, bringing you a hug from the sun, since you won't go to it.
I'm with you on deregulation (won't make me no money) but I stand four-square on old Noah Webster (may he rest in peace!) putting more regulation into the American language. You heard those rappers (or is it crappers?).

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:43 PM

You don't need me as much as you need some anit-trust attorney, Bellzer.... The danged language is some kind o' monopoly... An' someones' gettin' rich off it.... I'll guarenteeee it! I mean, real rich!

Iz fri keepin' the regerlations on it as long as we can 'er next thing ya know we'll be gettin monthy bills fir, ahhhhh.... talkin'!!!!

Think about it!!! You'll see 'zactly what I mean!!!

It's all part of the right winged conspiracy!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:31 PM

Bobert, I told you we needed you here! Didn't I tell you? My dear friend 568 Koala stamps and a Golden Dunart to you Sir.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Gloredhel
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:26 PM

The audio link does indeed seem to be faulty. 3 hours about the solar flare. It isn't the slightest bit interesting to me.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:24 PM

More regretably, I did open it! And what do you think I heard? Nuthin' about no deregulation of language... Jus' a bunch of tree huggin' commie crap 'bout some solar flair... Like, Iz as intersted in tres as much as the next hillbilly, but I ain't into huggin' no sun. Nope, ain't gonna' happen... I'll hug my couzin Rufus's wife, Rether May, who ain't ever actaully been in or withina mile of a bath tub, but I ain't gonna hug no sun. Period. End of negotiations...

Now, as fir deregulatin' the English language.... Ahhh, well it's about time... Wat too many words in it. You all ever pick up one of these Websters? Like 3 pounds of words. Used to be two. Heck, I could get along real nicely with just a fcouple ounces myself...

But when you get these danged Repubs in the first thig they wanta do is gop and deregulate every thing that can make a buck fir one of their buddies (wgho just happened to contribute to their campaigns). I say, let them folks waller with the rest of us who never made up no words important to make Webster. Heck, them folkx is out gallivantin' 'round collectin' reyaltiis checks from Mr. Webster fir us using their words and we are splittin' hot dogs three ways... I mean, you call this fair?

No! Its a danged shame is waht it is... Heck with 'em. Let 'em get jobs like real folks....

No to deregulation of language and yes to, ahhhh, legalized pot, free music and plaid shirts...

That's my take on it and until anyone comes forth woith photographic everdince that I got Webster blood in my famlee, I stickin' to it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 08:14 PM

So much of the "I think" conveys fakelore. The problem is that uncritical readers pass it on as fact. The known facts must be checked before one is entitled to put forth one's "I think."
Where language is concerned, Dictionaries and word usage manuals are the base. If it is made clear that the speculation carries on from there, fine.

I couldn't open an audio link either.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 07:16 PM

Regretably, I could not open the audio link.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 07:09 PM

I agree Kat, when someone says "I think that.." or "I wonder if..." at least you know where the information came from. The thought can then be explored by poets, pedants, serious thinkers, comedians and devil's advocates. Before a thread dies there is a wealth of information within it as well as amazing creative writing. The one thing that seems to be apparent is that Mudcatters do, on the whole, have a real love of the language.
I'm looking forward to this thread's development.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 06:29 PM

Thanks for your take, Q, but I think it's more that we have a good command, but choose not to get too formal about it. Though, we do have our pedants, more than I think the average web-forum does. Also, from what I hear, we are pretty wordy compared to most.

I think there is a vast difference between being able to write well, with proper grammar, etc. and choosing to write in a more carefree way. I've seen stuff on here which takes my breath away from poeple who then post in a vernacular so completely off-kilter there's no comparison.

The program is well worth listening to, imo.

Subject: RE: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 05:00 PM

OK, Kat, I will act the Devil's advocate on language. I take the stand that- Many who post at Mudcat don't care pediddle about language.
Look at the recent thread on "tarry."
Posts attempting to define the word start with "I've heard," "I think," "Couldn't find an entry in the dictionary;" give definitions off the top of the head without reference; confuse the word sought with other words; make use of hoked-up internet or pop culture dictionaries, and know nothing of the history and development of their language.
Why don't people at least have the minimum- Oxford Concise of Webster's Collegiate? (Many out there, I fear, can't understand the make-up of the entries or can't put them in context)

Music is a complex question. I deplore the lack of music education in the schools, which has led to adulation for lowest common denominator performers, e. g. Shamia Train and Barth Rooks, but there also are good musicians out there, even though they are not found in the popular media.

I would give Mudcatters high marks on musical knowledge, but they are not typical of the general public.

Subject: NPR - degradation of language & music
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 03 - 03:51 PM

I found this discussion on NPR, today, very interesting. It was also frustrating because I found myself talking back to them, telling them how much we care about the language and the music, here at the Mudcat!:-) One of the examples they used for differences in music diction, etc. was Fred Astaire and Tom Waits.

Anyway, here's the blurb with a link so that you may listen and see what you think:

In his latest dispatch from the front lines of American culture, John McWhorter reports that the glory of the English language has been lost as speech surrenders to talk. Join host Neal Conan to talk about "the degradation of language and music and why we should, like, care."

Doing Our Own Thing: The Degradation of Language and Music and Why We Should, Like, Care(scroll down) (Gotham Books 2003) by John McWhorter, Associate Professor of Linguistics at University of California, Berkeley, Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute.