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BS: Untie the Canadian Right...
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Subject: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Willie-O Date: 03 Nov 03 - 11:13 AM Wanted: one leader for the pending, something-old, something-new Conservative Party of Canada. Qualifications: Must have more charisma than Stephen Harper and sit somewhere to the right of Joe Clark. Washed up former provincial premiers need not apply. Seriously, now that Mike Harris has declined to run, who they gonna call? Personally I never thought Harris would make it into 24 Sussex; no doubt he could take more seats in Ontario than the Reform/CA ever would, but how many, exactly? After eight years of his premiership, he is strongly disliked by much of the province, and the recent electoral drubbing (love that word!) that his anointed successor Ernie Eves received suggests that Harris was just clever enough to avoid embarrassment at the polls. In any case, he isn't playing. My feeling is that leaves Stephen Harper as the front-runner. I think that'd be nothing but the third incarnation of the Reform Party: "The Alliance That Ate The Tories", slogan, We're not progressive. I think though we could look for a "draft-Bernard Lord" movement. He's young, bilingual, and has Eastern appeal. But hold on a second, the guy has been running New Brunswick on a pro-business platform for what, three years? Anyone care to bet how close HE is to the Irvings? Besides, what good has he actually done there? It's what they call a wide-open field. Any Canadian Mudcatters want to apply? C'mon Clinton, this is your chance at a steady paycheque and some upscale guitar choices :)= Bill sitting back and watching them get ready...I bet Paul Martin is REAL worried. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: RichM Date: 03 Nov 03 - 11:39 AM Is it at all possible to unite the "Right"? This term covers such a broad range of beliefs that it may be impossible to achieve. Not that I think the Liberal party should continue to consider itself the natural governing choice. I think Canadians need to re-examine the basic structures of our parliamentary system. For example, let's look at proportional representation, direct election of senators, and a larger role for participation of cities in federal decision making. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Willie-O Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:30 PM I agree with all your points Rich. In fact I sure hope the oft-stated goal of a unified conservative federal party is never achieved. But the game's afoot. And I would like to see the Liberals considerably more nervous and thus responsive to the public. Of course, what I want them to be responsive to is mostly very different from what the right wing would like to see. But having them entrenched by default is getting harder and harder to stomach. Barring a miracle, we'll have another five years of Liberal government, probably more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:42 PM The Conservative Party back here have three used but relatively house-trained ex-party leaders they could probably let you have for a consideration. All are readily disposable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 03 Nov 03 - 12:48 PM What I absolutely dread is the Canadian right doing what the American right has done over the last couple of decades -- uniting and organizing one agenda under which they will operate, and that agenda further right than the conservatives have been previously. Canada has always been politically centrist -- the traditional parties were more alike than different. But Preston Manning changed all that: his Alberta-based rightwing extremism led to the left and right becoming far more polarized in this country, and that's a recipe for disaster, with wild swings left and right, depending on who is elected. It's scary stuff, and I hope it doesn't happen here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Nov 03 - 01:23 PM What impact does Bushism south of the border have on Canadians? Do the see it as a horrible warning against right-extremism, or does it make right-extremism seem a normal sort of thing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Nov 03 - 01:44 PM Tp paraphrase Leonard Cohen, I wasn't aware Canada had government... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST Date: 03 Nov 03 - 02:56 PM The things I find scariest are..The Conservative leader does not understand the reform (alliance ) party, he just wants power. The Alliance Part is anti-Canadian..it seems to hate all the things Canada stands for. Western Protest Parties really want to be american republicans. This Union is not a Union of the right it is a Union of desperation. I too am not fond of the Liberals but I would take them over the allioance any day. It is not our electoral systme that got us into this mess. It is the inabilty of many Canadians to understand the concept of Canada as a nation and not as a series of self interested little fiefdoms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Willie-O Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:13 PM Quite true, Guest, at least your ifrst paragraph. The Alliance is as quick to criticize anything Canada does as it is to unconditionally support any American military action, anywhere, for any purpose... As to your second, I think I see your point. To gain and maintain power in this country, you have to know how to put together a coalition of diverse regional interests, with a strongly multicultural base. The Liberals are the surviving entity that knows how to do this. PDC is partly right, but I sure don't swing the "wild swings to the left". Please find me one so I can ride on it! Hey Clinton, what are you paraphrasing there??? I'm not sure what to think about Prime Minister Clinton, anyway. ;)= W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,Obie Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:16 PM We tend sometimes to be smug and think that democracy is so great that it can't be improved upon. Idiots elect idiots and morons forgive morons, and the electorate get what they deserve! The people elected to represent me, in reality, only represent their own political party , and don't give a shit about me until the next election, when they return begging for my vote. My taxes also pay the salary of seperatists in our "common house". We have a senate appointed for life or age 75 if it comes first. We have compulsary retirement for most at age 65 but have a 65 year old right wing billionaire being invested as our next Prime Minister without an election. All of this idiocy allows the liberals to waltz into power because an alternative does not exist. The only threat to power that Cretien has had in years is from his "friends" trying to stab him in the back! We once had the best system of health care on earth but these idiots want a private system like the USA. Our courts are pandering to the criminals and our schools are graduating more morons to feed the system. All that being said when we look around we realize that is still the best country on earth. If we unite the right what the hell should we do with them then??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:31 PM To answer some questions: Willie-O said: "PDC is partly right, but I sure don't swing the "wild swings to the left". Please find me one so I can ride on it!" We haven't had any of the wild swings yet -- but they are what I fear most. I live in BC, where the political parties are very polarized between left and right. We've had disasters under the NDP, and disasters under the current conservative administration, largely because each party is so opposed to the other that when one gets in power, it immediately attempts to undo whatever the other has done when it was in power. That's unhealthy and partisan. You should just see the terrible social cuts being made in BC now, under the Campbell administration, at the same time as he is spending like a drunk on the forthcoming Olympics. Yuck. McGrath of Harlow asked: "What impact does Bushism south of the border have on Canadians? Do the see it as a horrible warning against right-extremism, or does it make right-extremism seem a normal sort of thing?" It's a very interesting situation. Of course Canada is enormously influenced by the US, but it's (so far) more a social influence than a political one. Unfortunately, as social views are influenced, so are political ones, so I am afraid that the writing is on the wall here. I give great, great credit to Jean Chretien, who is about to retire, for passing legislation that makes Canada culturally more distinct from the US than it has been in the past, but I'm not sure it will have a lasting effect. I hope so. When Preston Manning created the party that is now the Alliance Party, which is uniting with the Progressive Conservative Party, he looked south to the extreme right for his party's platform. (He was quite disgusting -- you could see the naked hunger for power on his face, and could tell that he would sell a member of his family to get elected. My husband called him the "ankle-biter" because he was such a yappy little puppy.) He borrowed his blueprint from the American extreme right, and unfortunately enough people bought into it that he and his party became the official opposition. Now that the rightwingers in the US have led that country into a situation which many Canadians view as suspicious, dangerous, and blatantly crooked, there is a possibility that Chretien's actions to distance Canada from the US will resonate, and Canadians will vote to retain the status quo. But don't hold your breath -- the Canadian electorate is generally no more educated about issues and politics than the electorates of any other country. As long as reality TV is on, why bother? Aargh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Clinton Hammond Date: 03 Nov 03 - 04:59 PM "Last Man On Earth" -Louden Wainwrite III- I sat and watched those guys Debate each other on TV Policiticans, wrestlers They're all ther same to me Hey, I don't give a damn which idiot runs this country Since I'm the last man on earth, it don't matter to me " I'm not sure what to think about Prime Minister Clinton, anyway" If you mean me, then don't waste your time... Even if I was ever vote in, I'd just never show up for work... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: RichM Date: 03 Nov 03 - 05:22 PM Hey, CLinton....you'd fit right as a senator---they don't show up either! :) Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Peace Date: 03 Nov 03 - 06:05 PM I figure that if Canadian Senators--for our friends elsewhere, Canada's Senators are appointed by the party in power when seats become vacant--are going to be Senators, they ought to pass a blood pressure test. That is, they should have a blood pressure. I think that should be a law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Cluin Date: 03 Nov 03 - 08:56 PM I think they should announce a big party with free booze and food in the Senate. They'd ALL show up that night. Then while they are inside we could bolt the doors shut, do a "Cask of Amontillado" manoevre on `em, and abolish the senate once and for all. Makes sense, for all the good it does. Tip over the trough. As far as the Canadian Right goes, who can take them seriously? Made up of the remnants of the party Lyin' Brian Mulroney single-handedly destroyed and that group of misfit rednecks, religious whackos, and racists that Pressed-On Manning tried furiously to clean up before they stabbed him in the back and chose "Wetsuit Boy" as their leader (until they tipped him out of the rowboat too). Yep, it'll be the Grits again, this time under Paul Martin (who should probably be considered the right-wing candidate anyway). Such is my out-on-a-limb prediction. So let it be written! Abracadabra! Hocus Pocus Dominocus! Simsim Salabim! Rozann Kobar! Oga Nabosi! Ian Hanomansing! Annamaria Tremonti! Ravi Baichwal! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:08 AM "As far as the Canadian Right goes, who can take them seriously?" Cluin, if you read my longish post upthread, you will see why we have to take them seriously. For a long time, no one in the US took the rightwing kooks and extreme Christians seriously either. Then they united, organized....and now look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:33 AM Well, I'm in favour of disbanding ALL political parties FOREVER, and electing real people instead who can think for themselves...but that ain't gonna happen (sigh). At least not in my lifetime. I feel like a "republican" (small c type) in the early 1600's trying to convince people that the divine right of kings and bishops is not really a good form of representation... :-) (they would have burned me at the stake for suggesting something so clearly idiotic and inconceivable, I'm sure). Political parties are equally idiotic. Be that as it may, I doubt that this new Conservative alliance in Canada will go anywhere useful. Canada would be better off if the Reform outfit ceased to exist and we had the old PC Party back...they were a centrist outfit, like the Liberals. A radical right party is very unlikely to get far in Canada. But it's all a joke anyway, believe me. Political parties do not represent the public, they represent themselves and their wealthier backers, who are mostly billionaires or at least multi-millionaires. That's who runs the system. You and I get to vote for their chosen surrogates, their underlings, and their puppets. It's a fraud, designed to make us think we have a voice. Are people free if they think they are? Apparently, judging by the propaganda I hear every day from the government and media of the USA in particular. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Metchosin Date: 04 Nov 03 - 02:02 AM What pdc said. Unfortunately, IMO, Martin will be the one to undo Chretien's actions....at least those I view as positive and I am sore afraid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Dave Bryant Date: 04 Nov 03 - 06:11 AM Are the Canadian Right all into bondage games then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: gnu Date: 04 Nov 03 - 06:19 AM Bernie's too smart to commit political suicide. Anyway, he'll get at least one more term to prove himself here in New Brunswick because that's the kind of polite folk we are. As far as how far he is up the Irving's collective asses, don't forget, they own over 40% of the private enterprise in this province and have global holdings that are only dwarfed by the oil shieks and the hi-tech barons who have wealth mostly on paper rather than land, factories, mines, shipyards, ships, refineries, etc. The Irvings wield real power globally, so any premier, from a small or large province, would at least have to "take into consideration" what the Irvings have to say. Bernie is walking a fine line... rather well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 03 - 08:32 AM Gee obie, I don't recognize the country you are describing. Could you give some examples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 03 - 08:52 AM I can't believe the generalizations I see here. Firstly, there are many politicians at all levels, Senators included, who very hard on behalf of thier contstituents. Secondly, it is not the job of persons running for office to find out where the people are going then lead them there. It the candidates Job to state his or her beliefs, you make vote for them or not. Thirdly, I know very few politicians who are tripping over billionaire friends. People do not get the Government they deserve, they get the government they elect. To assume that democracy is made fragile by the quality of those elected is to forgive the ignorance of the electors. I find that many democracies have voters who are bitchy rather than informed, hence these gross generalizations and childish cliches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 04 Nov 03 - 11:09 AM Metchosin, I agree with you completely about Martin, and I am also sore afraid. Martin represents a dreadful threat to the whole country: look what policies similar to his have done to BC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:08 PM GUEST - I am not suggesting that most politicians are "bad people". I don't think that at all. Nor am I suggesting that they don't try hard on behalf of their constituents...many of them do that. I am suggesting that a party-based political system is a system which rapidly devolves into corruption and influence-peddling by the big financial powers in a country, REGARDLESS of the good intentions and good character of our elected representatives, and that there really isn't much we can do about it, given the nature of the system as it exists. To think otherwise is, IMO, naive. I've met a lot of politicians, and I think most of them are well-intentioned people with a real desire to serve the public, but they are hobbled by a system that is divisive and dishonest by its very nature. It's unfortunate. Do you think a politician who told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth would get elected? I don't. I don't think she'd even get nominated in the first place. Not a chance. Our existing political system is built on deception, evasion, and false propaganda. It's like selling snake oil used to be. The good people who are in it soldier on and try to deal with it as best they can. Most people are essentially good people, in my opinion...politicians included. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:40 PM The fact that an honest politician would not get elected says a great deal about the voters. Political Parties are not the problem IMHO, the problem is that voters don't insist on platforms, read the literature, determine the values of parties and so on...I too believe that most people are good, I also believe that most people are individual lobbyiest, they want something for their vote...that is not how democracy works. I think Canada is a great country but will eventuall be destoyed by three things Individual self interest regional self interest misinformed voters. I hope I am wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 04 Nov 03 - 12:45 PM Even if a politician who told the truth, the whole truth, etc. did get elected, she would soon become part of the political system, and in order to survive would have to fit the system. The system is sure a large part of the problem. Another part of the problem, which I've mentioned repeatedly here and elsewhere is the voter. I strongly believe that no one should be allowed to vote unless they can demonstrate at least a basic knowledge of our political system, issues on which candidates are running, etc. Across-the-board enfranchisement means that people whose idea of society comes from reality TV have the same say in elections that professors of political science have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:04 PM Yeah...the problem is partly the system, partly the greedy and uninformed public. I do not vote for people because I think that I personally am going to get some tidbit from them (like a tax cut). I vote for them because I think they will be responsible, hopefully, toward the whole situation in society...or because they are the lesser of several evils, often as not. I pity the people who simply vote for whoever they think is going to put more money in their greedy little pockets...it'll get stolen from them anyway through another way they don't see, because they can't look beyond the end of their own noses. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:06 PM I would not like to follow the lead of most Profs of Political Science either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:16 PM Agreed. I used Professor of Political Science as an extreme opposite of the reality TV viewer, but both are bad! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,Obie Date: 04 Nov 03 - 01:17 PM How can a person vote, based on a political platform? I seem to recall our PM promising to tear up the free trade agreement and to abolish the GST. After he was voted in he turned 180 deg. How can you trust such a liar? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Peace Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:40 PM The Canadian 'Right' is much like a bird that flies in ever-diminishing circles; eventually, it will disappear into, well, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Metchosin Date: 04 Nov 03 - 03:47 PM How can you tell when a politician is lying? .......His lips are moving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 05 Nov 03 - 03:47 PM Untie? Is that as in "If my untie had balls she'd be my ankle"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Nov 03 - 03:53 PM The Canadian Right is a bad joke in search of a good punch line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Raptor Date: 05 Nov 03 - 04:15 PM I think we should get a woman to be the Prime Minister! She would make the same desisions as a man! She would handel the same problems as a man! She would run this country as good as a man! And we wouldn't have to pay her as much! Raptor I was just Jokking! (sheesh) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 05 Nov 03 - 04:54 PM Raptor, she would handle the same problems as a man. She would run the country better. She would make better decisions. And you wouldn't have to pay her as much as she would manage the money better. Now go out into the garden and eat worms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Cluin Date: 05 Nov 03 - 06:48 PM Kim Campbell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Raptor Date: 05 Nov 03 - 06:57 PM Well put pdc! MMMMMMMMMM worms! Pass the Katchup Raptor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:25 PM Aw, poor Kim Campbell -- she was so badly used by the PC party and by Mulrony in particular. I met her a couple of years ago; very, very bright woman who deserved better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: Cluin Date: 05 Nov 03 - 11:45 PM Yep. Thrown to the dogs, she was. She looked like Tweety Bird, but was nowhere near as lucky. I heard her recently on CBC radio where she was hosting a show. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,Obie Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:29 AM Yes Kim was left to bear the electorate wrath after Mulroony sneaked out the back door, but she was not totally innocent. She was a part of Brian's cabinet so was partly to blame for his rotten government! Kim is a very intellegent lady and I am sure that she knew that she was leading the Tories to destruction. Why did she take the job? Because she will go down in history as Canada's first PM. The sad part is that she also bore the wrath of long time Tory party members. Some of them still think that Brian was a great leader. In that Kim was a skapegoat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: GUEST,Obie Date: 06 Nov 03 - 05:31 AM That should have read "Canada's first female PM." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Untie the Canadian Right... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Nov 03 - 07:52 AM "...she would handle the same problems as a man. She would run the country better. She would make better decisions. And you wouldn't have to pay her as much as she would manage the money better." There are some people here who still think that was true of Margaret Thatcher. Most people would say the opposite. Just shows generalisations about such things don't weigh too much. |
