BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war

Subject: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Deda
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 11:11 PM

I'm tired of being in an undeclared civil war. I'm tired of being outraged and insulted in every political discussion. Since about the time of that totally outrageous impeachment I have lost all sense that this deepening chasm in our political land is ever going to get better or go away. I've lost interest in conversation; I don't trust the other side at all, and I can see that they don't think much of me, either. I really don't see why we can't have a national health care system, and a non-violent society where guns are not handed out like popcorn, and I am tired of being called un-American for thinking these are a good idea. I think women really have to be allowed to make their own difficult choices for themselves. (Abortions have been around for all of human history; making them illegal just makes them life-threatening.) I don't see a solution that will re-unite us as a civil nation. I think we're just too polarized to get together again. I don't think that the red states and the blue states are one country anymore.

I want to live someplace with a reasonable limit on political advertising, where people who earn a lot put extra into the pot to help out those who don't, where corporations don't control the legislature, and where the tax laws don't give them easy outs like moving phony HQ to the Bahamas. I'd like to be part of a society where greed is NOT considered good, where civility and a sense of community develop naturally. Where having a heart is not considered a weakness, and where people who yell at and heap abuse on each other are not given TV shows, and where education is truly universal, and educators are valued and even paid. Where the minimum wage isn't given more attention than the possibility of a maximum wage.

So here's what I propose. I'd like to just revisit the last year of the civil war, and tell the (right-wing, now republican) south, "OK, you go your way, and let us go ours. No slavery anywhere. We'll let you keep Texas if you'll just give us back Idaho and California, which is pretty much ours anyway -- the recent governor's race notwithstanding." Then a whole bunch of us will have to pack up and move -- but that will settle itself out. My own state of Colorado will have quite a fight, because Aspen, Boulder and Denver are fairly liberal but the rest of the state are radically right. But I'll move if I have to. And boy, wouldn't it be a great project to re-invent ourselves as a nation! We could take that brilliant, extraordinary constitution and bring it into the 21st century.

"A modest proposal." No crazier than letting the starving poor in Ireland eat their own children ---- right?

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 11:20 PM

Well, Deda, it's a shocker of a proposition. I would prefer to believe that phases like this one have come and gone in the past and the Union has rejoined in spite of the worst efforts of those who would divide it. An un-healable rift? My god, the stomach curls at the very thought!! I do hope your intuition is off the mark this time. And given the pushy nature of so many of us, and the recentness of our crying for Manifest Destiny, I am afraid one the siblings would turn and consume the other, just as the Noath did in 1864. Why should a house divided into two stand any better than a house divided against itself?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 11:24 PM

We could go to Switzerland, Deda......or the South Pole.....

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Deda
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 11:28 PM

Well, I used the title 'Modest Proposal" intentionally. That is, it just exaggerates the current thinking a little bit bit, to take it to an outrageous conclusion.
In case that's not totally clear, I DON"T ACTUALLY MEAN IT FOR REALS.... yet. But if anyone's organizing a Constitutional Convention, please PM me.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Nov 03 - 11:34 PM

No point going to Switzerland now - Australian Courts have now pried information from them - causing a bit of a fuss on the Aussie Stock Market at the moment...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: GUEST,Jon Athans Wift
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 12:04 AM

Deda,

Be careful. They thought I meant it, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: mg
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 12:23 AM

Where having a heart is not considered a weakness, and where people who yell at and heap abuse on each other are not given TV shows, and where education is truly universal, and educators are valued and even paid. Where the minimum wage isn't given more attention than the possibility of a maximum wage.



Sounds like most of America to me, this part at least. Plenty of places where the educators are the most highly paid people around..like where I live it is pretty much true...Come on down.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 01:06 AM

Not all of the rest of Colorado is right-wing nuts, Deda! There are quite a few Boulder/Eastern Slope refugees living over here on the Western Slope, and the rest of us who were either raised liberal and in Colorado or come from elsewhere, raised the same. We're just in less concentrated areas.:-)

I long for the same things you've listed. I've been teasing Rog about packing up and going to Canada. My daughter has been thinking the same thing, esp. if Yale is right in its prediction and that wanking shurb gets in again.

Here's some cause for hope: Wyoming is very conservative. Most of the Republicans up there voted in a Democratic governor. A lot of them do NOT want bush in as prez. any longer. They want a different candidate to run altogether; barring that, they are contemplating actualy voting against him, i.e. for a Democrat! Some of them figure their ancestors will turn over in their graves, but they've had it with him and with their "native" son, Cheney. I never thought I'd see that day!

Our main hope is to make sure as many people get out to vote as we can, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 01:08 AM

Too bad we can't have a visitation of Christmas Past, Present, and Future at the White House this year! I bet it'd wipe that smary smirk right off his face!

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 01:16 AM

I'm not sure I understand the part about Idaho and California. They never belonged to the South. And California wanted to secede and be their own country at some point.

No society is perfect. If we want to effect change, we have to start with that person in the mirror. What are you waiting for?

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 01:59 AM

Katlaughing, I really hate to tell you this, because you are the kind of person I would love to see emigrate to Canada -- but it's very difficult to move here, much like Australia and NZ. You need a) a ton of money, or b) a skill or profession that we need. You wouldn't believe how many Americans try to come here every year and can't.

The main reason is to protect our healthcare system, I've been told.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 10:15 AM

Well, in reality the "civil war" never really ended but has just evolved and but there's always been a little fire under the pot...

Recently, it would appear that the South is way ahead with so many folks attention drawn away from a perticipatory democracy toward Budweiser, country music and NASCAR...

And this was bound to happen because folks really never "got along" to well. The actual killin' part of the not getting along, from 1st Manassas to Appomatox should never have occured and wouldn't have occured had Lincoln not played brinkmanship. (kinda like Bush in a way when he demonizes folks with educations and different visions).

Then there was an 11 year occupation of the South by *know it all* Yankees which was like kickina a mna when he's down... Then an abandoment by the Yankees purdy much as Jim Crow came to towns through out the South, and then the Dixiecrats and now the Southern Stategy, where to take the White House one must pander to redneck America.

I like the "modest proposal" idea myself. No, not about eating babies but maybe it is time for another constitutional convention, just to get folks attention on the other side and to wake up Americans.

It's strange to read this this morning because the P-Vine and I were talkin' last night about just how fascists America is becoming and just how corrupt the Republican Party is and we have at least raised the possibility of not being able to stay here in America. Oh, sure, it would be so difficult to give up what we;ve worked a lifetime to have but living in a police state is kinda hard to swallow... We're going to do what we can to get Bush out but if he takes the '04 Selection, then I'd say America hasn't seen anything yet. We will all be forced to spend our Sundays watching cars drive in circles just to pretend to be part of the "in crowd"...

Kinda like 1937 Germany... You certainly don't want to be perceived as not being in the "in crowd"... No sir..

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Deda
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 01:36 PM

The part about Idaho and California was just a kind of switch from north-south to the 2000 election's red vs. blue states. Idaho is notoriously conservative, a haven for white supremacists & others. California just elected Schwartzen-groper, and gave the nation Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 02:01 PM

Move to Canada, Deda. You would like it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 02:37 PM

uh,....the thing about idaho...it use to be a democrtic state...until people from out of state came along....that also is where the majority of the white supremists come from as well...out of state...

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Deda
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 03:48 PM

I might well move to Canada eventually. Do you all need a Latin teacher? I'm a really good teacher.

Nearly every one of the 50 states is now occupied mostly by folks from out of state, as far as I can tell.

Question, or maybe an addition to the proposal: We've never tried real direct democracy. Nobody has, since maybe Athens 5th century BC or so, because it's just too unweildy and cumbersome to have everybody vote on anything. But in my new (imaginary) country, I think I'll have the president directly elected by all the people -- just a plain head count. With the technology we have now, it could be done securely with less cost and headache than we pour into the electoral college charade. The popular vote would be the ONLY vote. Is there something wrong with that picture that I'm missing??

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 06:45 PM

So would that be first past the post, or put-them-in-your-order-of- preference? And is there any process of cutting down the numnber of candidates?

And of course, who says the technology is secure? The people who build it? The very powerful person who wishes to be re-elected?

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 06:59 PM

Deda,

Greece wasn't a real democracy. That was reserved for the 'citizens' only. Didn't include the slaves. I like your idea. Dux femina facti.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Deda
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 07:07 PM

Well of course the techies who set up the system have to be honest beyond question. But in my imaginary country, that isn't as hard as it is here in the corrupt late Roman, pardon me, American empire. (I'm always making that mistake.) Maybe Amos could do it for me.

True, slaves and women didn't get to vote in Greece.

I remembered what the argument is against one person/one vote for president in the USA. It means that candidates would lobby like crazy in heavily populated areas like NYC and LA, and the low-population states like Dakotas would never, ever hear from them. It seems to me that with the internet, that might not be as big a deal as it once was.

Yes, I like the dux femina facti reference, except that I hope to end up better than poor old Dido.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 07:13 PM

Women, slaves, same thing!


















I can just HEAR the shit hittin' the fan, but humanum est errare.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 09 Nov 03 - 08:29 PM

And to forgive devine?

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 12:34 AM

The point about Athens was that its voting was direct from voters to result without the intervening damper of asn Electoral College -- not that it was "pure democracy".

It's silly to argue that slaves should have the franchise. If you have slaves at all, which I disapprove of, they're sure not gonna be entrusted with the vote!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 06:58 AM

Couldn't resist a wry smile at this, from the opening post: Abortions have been around for all of human history; making them illegal just makes them life-threatening.

All abortions are life-threatening. Some to the mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 08:13 AM

Great idea, Deda.
And when you've sorted out America come over here and sort out Europe, which seems to be moving in the opposite (i.e. Federal not devolutionary) direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 03:53 PM

Amos raises an interesting line of thought: When did the USA become a democracy? (Or Canada for that matter?) Does it happen when all people have the franchise or when certain people have the franchise?

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: musicmick
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 05:42 PM

Poor Deda. She just wants to live in a society that reflects her values and no one else's. I know how you feel, kid. If only people would do what I tell them, there would be no wars or evils and everybody would live in love and peace. But they JUST WON'T LISTEN!
Freedom, sad to say, means freedom for everyone, even those dolts who are causing all the dissension by being different. I;m afraid that just two countries won't do to realize your dream of monophilosophical societies. You'll need millions of little countries to accomidate those nasty little variations that pop up like pimples at a prom.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 05:50 PM

musicmic: Let the lady dream. She knows it's a dream. And it is a dream, more's the pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 05:52 PM

The US isn't a democracy, it's a republic. Or so they tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 06:08 PM

They told you right. But they didn't tell you all. It's a democracy, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 03 - 07:31 PM

musicmic:

Nah, Deda just wants to live where just once in awile things go your way. What we have now is a totally polorized nation with 50.1% of the people running roughshod over the other 49.9% as if they don't count. There isn't compromise anymore. It's the 51.1%'s rules and if you ain't part of the 51.1% then "screw you".

That's what this thread is all about...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: musicmick
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 01:02 AM

Dear Bobert, I hate to be the bearer of sad tidings but it's time you knew the reality of popular politics. Most folks are conservative in the sense of trusting their leaders and institutions, even though leaders and institutions are historicly untrustworthy. Folks, for the most part, just want to get along and go along. We will almost always opt for the status quo (the devil they know). We are suspicious of change and we fear the radical firebrand. We cling to our traditions and our traditional values. Sectionalism and its big brother, nationalism are unifying and comforting. We are, after all, just wandering creatures in an eerie world, so those of you who are more enlightened will have to be tolerant and those of us who are mere mortals will have to cower and cringe in the consolation of our majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 11:19 AM

Guess my edjercation is now complete...

Thanks fir that last piece of the puzzle, musicmic...

I'm felling so much better now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 12:01 PM

Most folks are conservative in the sense of trusting their leaders and institutions, even though leaders and institutions are historicly untrustworthy.

Yup. Cognitivive dissonance rules America. vide the "Generation of Morons" thread.

God Help America.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 12:27 PM

Some people really do have to have terrible difficulty in recognising irony, even when it is clearly signposted.

I'd think that the correct term for the USA should really be that it is an elective monarchy rather than a republic.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 01:22 PM

If you mean me, Kevin, I wish I was convinced it was meant as irony- I'm not so sure its not an accurate description.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: GUEST,Deda
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 04:06 PM

Well, yes I realize that this civil war can't actually end by re-writing the last civil war, and this is all wishful thinking. OTOH, wishful thinking is a start, of a sort. What kind of a nation do you want? You have to start with some kind of an ideal, don't you? I looked back at the "generation of morons" thread, and it's pretty clear that you can't have a democracy OR a republic of ill-informed, uninterested, uneducated voters and expect it all to run like a dream. So in my country, people will be well-educated, and educators will be important, valued, and even (gasp) paid.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 04:28 PM

No, I didn't mean you, Greg. I took that quote from musicmic as being non-ironic, and accurate into the bargain.

Though I don't see it in quite the same cheerful light as musicmic evidently does. Some truly awful things have been done by rulers who have traded on that tendency people have to trust them regardless.

The strange thing is how that trust melts away retrospectively. It's virtually impossible, outside a few places, to find anyone who will admit to having voted for Margaret Thatcher. It'll be like that with Bush in the USA, some day. Some happy day.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 05:06 PM

Deda,

I'm with you and if we get a few states, I'll be the 1st Wes Ginnian to stick a "For Sale" sign out in the front yard, unless, of course, Wes Ginny is part of our country. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Ahhh, no I kinda have to disagree with ya' a tad on the last "civil war". It has been re-written so many time its unreal... It's taight that it was fought to end slavery... Not! That's "revisionism" at its extreme. If it was fought to end slavery then why is it the Lincoln, in his Emanicapation Porclamation freed slaves only in confederate states? Hmmmmm... No, "Honest" thug, Abe baited the sounth and baited them... He wanted a war... Wnated to consolidate power... Hmmmm, sounds like someone we know... BTW, consolidation of power is the cornerstone of facism... But that's another story...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Peace
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 05:36 PM

On September 18, 1858, Lincoln said that he was NOT in favour of freeing the slaves. That's in the Congressional Record.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Deda
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 06:52 PM

I'm no Lincoln scholar but it seems to me that he was (A) a man of the 19th century, not the 21st, and (B) in favor of keeping the union together if he possibly could. Here is a letter of his written in 1855, in which he says this:
Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy [sic].

That seems not so very different from much of what has already been said in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 08:27 PM

I sometimes muse about an alternative history in which the numbers had worked out differently, and the secession happened the other way round, an attempt by the anti-slave states to avoid having the slave system imposed upon them.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 08:39 PM

It's an interesting question -- was agriculture easier? Or why was it that the North tended to build large industrial bases while the South carried on farming? I guess it was easier in the deeper alluvial soils and warmer climates to stick with the known and profitable path of raising cotton. And tobacco was already a climbing market.





A

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 09:49 PM

Err, not quite, Amos... when time permits, give this a read:

Berlin, Ira: Many thousands Gone: The First two Centuries of Slavery in North America Cambridge, Harvard Univ. Press, 1998

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 10:04 PM

Good, we're at least well beyond the "revisionists" who have painted the "War for Secession" as a war about slavery... That's agood start.

Now, about the next "civil war" (oximoraon), how do we get to a place where the 50.1% that have controlled the 49.9% since the 60's understand that we don't give a danged if they want to outlaw woman's rights (except when it comes their women), if they wanta strap evry person they don't like to a gurney and inject them with crap to kill 'em, that if they wanta go and invade other folks then.... friggin' have at it.... Just count us out 'cause we ain't part of yer sick little friggin' country. Yeah, tax the working class and give it to the trich. Send the working class to die in your killin' fields while you and Boss Hog sip yer mint Julieps.... Yeah, knock yer facsits selves out....,




But, most importantly, count us out...



Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Amos
Date: 11 Nov 03 - 10:37 PM

Thanks for the pointer Greg, but I doubt I'll dig it up very soon. Would it becheating to share the insight?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 02:25 AM

McGrath,
I think the USA is becoming more of a Partially Elected Dictator Republic rather than a Democractic Republic... :-)

In the First Roman Empire, you only got a vote if you were Rich and had Property of over a certain value... :-)

The USA is the Second Roman Empire... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 09:12 AM

Unfortunately, Amos, "Space Does Not Permit"- history is a complicated critter. Were it a single insight, no problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: musicmick
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 05:25 PM

What is it about the Left and the Right that they are so disdainful of democracy? There is no country in this world where free choice is coexistant with unified political attitudes.

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Nov 03 - 05:26 PM

yeah all those thousands of folks who's families were too poor to own slaves...or to get them commissions...or just out of the war...fought to keep slaves...

Subject: RE: BS: Modest Proposal to end the civil war
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 03 - 08:08 AM

The US is now, and nearly always has been, ruled de facto by oligarchy. One reason why Clinton was so despised by the right, is that he was an interloper--not an oligarch.

"Democracy" is currently being defined (not to mention shoved down our throats) by the political/media oligarchs as voting and soldiering. In other words, democracy is being defined by the true rulers as a constant state of war. We declare wars on everything, especially in advertising and politics.

But the truer sort of democracy--the sort Walt Whitman (think what the world might look like if poets were our leaders!) might have dreamed of, has a much higher cost for humans (fear of the different notwithstanding). That cost is daily citizenship.

I love the US, but I hate the political and (anti) intellectual culture of the South's European Americans. Cracker politics isn't something I think our nation should be aspiring to, and I was mightily disappointed with Howard Dean's suggestion that we need to welcome cracker politics into the tent.

The US is the most militaristic warrior culture the planet has ever seen. The measure of patriotism now is merely who can we kill and who can we beat. One is suspect if one's patriotism is expressed through any other institutions but the military.

I am not one to run around screaming the sky is falling. But I do definitely see US society today as being in it's self-destructing death phase. I believe we will have civil war in this country, and that it will once again be split largely along the same lines as our last civil war. I believe I could yet live to see it happen in my lifetime. But I consider that to be a positive outcome, not a negative one. There is no way southern cracker culture can maintain and hold itself together as a nation. That is their delusion, and the manipulation of the political/media oligarchs.