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BS: Bush's degree

kendall 17 Nov 03 - 07:51 PM
artbrooks 17 Nov 03 - 08:03 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 03 - 08:06 PM
Bill D 17 Nov 03 - 08:57 PM
Bill D 17 Nov 03 - 09:00 PM
Amos 17 Nov 03 - 09:39 PM
PapaWhiskey 17 Nov 03 - 11:17 PM
Amos 17 Nov 03 - 11:52 PM
kendall 18 Nov 03 - 09:15 AM
Big Tim 18 Nov 03 - 10:18 AM
TIA 18 Nov 03 - 10:44 AM
Amos 18 Nov 03 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 18 Nov 03 - 01:40 PM
Ebbie 18 Nov 03 - 03:02 PM
Ebbie 18 Nov 03 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,Poppa Gator, cookieless at work 18 Nov 03 - 05:43 PM
DougR 18 Nov 03 - 06:20 PM
artbrooks 18 Nov 03 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,pdc 18 Nov 03 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,pdc 18 Nov 03 - 06:50 PM
SINSULL 18 Nov 03 - 07:07 PM
SINSULL 18 Nov 03 - 07:13 PM
GUEST,Bushs degrees 18 Nov 03 - 08:23 PM
Amos 18 Nov 03 - 08:36 PM
PapaWhiskey 18 Nov 03 - 09:18 PM
Dave Bryant 19 Nov 03 - 06:56 AM
DougR 19 Nov 03 - 01:00 PM
Peg 19 Nov 03 - 01:06 PM
Amos 19 Nov 03 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,pdc 19 Nov 03 - 03:17 PM
kendall 19 Nov 03 - 08:54 PM
DougR 19 Nov 03 - 09:24 PM
Metchosin 19 Nov 03 - 09:41 PM
Amos 19 Nov 03 - 09:43 PM
Metchosin 19 Nov 03 - 11:52 PM
DougR 20 Nov 03 - 12:24 AM
Metchosin 20 Nov 03 - 12:30 AM
GUEST,pdc 20 Nov 03 - 12:54 AM
GUEST,noddy 20 Nov 03 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,pdq 20 Nov 03 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 20 Nov 03 - 11:19 AM
Amos 20 Nov 03 - 11:37 AM
DougR 20 Nov 03 - 12:15 PM
Amos 20 Nov 03 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,pdc 20 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 20 Nov 03 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,pdc 20 Nov 03 - 01:36 PM
akenaton 20 Nov 03 - 01:58 PM
Metchosin 20 Nov 03 - 01:58 PM
Metchosin 20 Nov 03 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,pdc 20 Nov 03 - 02:30 PM
Barry Finn 20 Nov 03 - 02:39 PM
Metchosin 20 Nov 03 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Claymore 21 Nov 03 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,pdc 21 Nov 03 - 01:16 PM
DougR 21 Nov 03 - 01:27 PM
Metchosin 21 Nov 03 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,pdc 21 Nov 03 - 11:02 PM
DougR 21 Nov 03 - 11:03 PM

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Subject: BS: Bush's degree
From: kendall
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 07:51 PM

I have a friend who insists that GW Bush has a Masters degree from Yale. Does anyone know for sure?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:03 PM

According to his official biography, he has a MBA from Harvard. I guess that Harvard is about equal to Yale, but I'm not sure if an MBA is a real Masters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:06 PM

Ahhhh, I believe that is Yayle University, a subsiderary of the Acme Roadrunner Trap Company....

He got hooked up with them from an ad he saw on a matchbook back in the 6o's...

That's the way I heard it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:57 PM

wasn't he a member of that secret "Skull & Bones" society at Yale? Or was that just Dad?
oh,,,yes...a quick Google search says they both were http://biblebelievers.org.au/bones.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:00 PM

gracious sakes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:39 PM

Wowww!! So the NWO scandal is more than just a fringe-nut conspiracy theory?


:>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: PapaWhiskey
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:17 PM

GWB Transcript

I wonder what the minimum GPA is for grad school admission at Yale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:52 PM

Looks like he was averaging 76 and peaking around 84. Not too impressive.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:15 AM

I tried to print the transcript but it is too fuzzy to read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Big Tim
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:18 AM

His IQ is reported as 91: Bill Clinton's as 182.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: TIA
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:44 AM

While he may in fact be dim or misguided, the IQ numbers are a hoax.

looky here


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:52 AM

The POTUS has a two-digit IQ??? That is truly ridiculous.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:40 PM

Masters of Business Administration is a very real degree.

My IQ tested at around 130.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 03:02 PM

Kendall, I did a 'Select All' and pasted the original onto Word, then cut and pasted just the transcript to a second document. Then I clicked and dragged on the corner of the transcript and made the size point 12 then printed it. Came out fine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:45 PM

To clarify: I dragged on the corner of the transcript in order to make it page size.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,Poppa Gator, cookieless at work
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:43 PM

George W's acceptance into undergraduate school by the ultra-selective Yale University admissions office can *only* be explained by his family connections.

His subsequent admission to the graduate school of business at Harvard is even harder to justify, given his performance at Yale. (That's assuming that the transcript is not a hoax.) Looks like nepotism really works, as long as one's connection is powerful enough.

W's most notable accomplishment in business was, as a baseball owner, to trade away Sammy Sosa. (Note to Brits and other non-followers of baseball: a truly boneheaded move.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: DougR
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:20 PM

Kim is right. The MBA is an advanced degree, and they don't give them out, they are earned. Kendall, Yale is on par with Harvard and Princeton. I believe he is the first president of the U. S. to have such an advanced business degree but I wouldn't swear to it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:30 PM

Yale, like many other universities in the US, has an admission policy that includes "legacy" admissions...that is, its easier to get in if someone else in your immediate family, such as your father, is a graduate. Most places, by the way, an MPA is a non-thesis Masters degree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:49 PM

Yale, like many other prestigious universities in the US has a two-pronged system: very hard to get in ($, family, grades) but extremely easy to get out -- everybody graduates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:50 PM

Sorry, that should have read $ OR family OR grades. IOW, if your grades are lousy but you have family connections OR money or both, you're in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 07:07 PM

Number Grades in College? In the 60s, grades were done on a letter basis and usually on a curve. Maybe this transcript is a joke?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 07:13 PM

I stand corrected.

"In his four years of enrollment here, Bush never got anything higher than an 88 -- Yale still had number grades back then -- and seemed more comfortable in the mid-70s, although he pulled a 69 in Astronomy. His cumulative average was a gentlemen's 77."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,Bushs degrees
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 08:23 PM

> > RESUME
> >
> > George W. Bush
> > The White House, USA
> >
> >
> > EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE
> >
> >
> > LAW ENFORCEMENT: I was arrested in Kennebunkport,
> > Maine in 1976 for driving under the influence of
> > alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my
> > driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas
> > driving record has been "lost" and is not available.
> >
> >
> > MILITARY: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and
> > went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions
> > about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was

> > able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.
> >
> >
> > COLLEGE: I graduated from Yale University. I was a cheerleader.
> >
> >
> > PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:
> >
> >
> > I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.
> >
> >
> > I began my career in the oil business in Midland,
> > Texas in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't
> > find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt
> > shortly after I sold all my stock.
> >
> >
> > I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a
> > sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.
> >
> >
> > With the help of my father and our right-wing friends
> > in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I
> > was elected Governor of Texas.
> >
> >
> > ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR:
> >
> >
> > I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil
> > companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the
> > Union.
> >
> >
> > During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the
> > most smog-ridden city in America.
> >
> >
> > I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the
> > tune of billions in borrowed money.
> >
> >
> > I set the record for the most executions by any
> > Governor in American history.
> >
> >
> > With the help of my brother, the Governor of Florida,
> > and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I
> > became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.
> >
> >
> > ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:
> >
> >
> > I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing
> > cost of over one billion dollars per week.
> >
> >
> > I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted
> > the U.S. Treasury.
> >
> >
> > I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit
> > in U.S. history.
> >
> >
> > I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies
> > filed in any 12-month period.
> >
> >
> > I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the
> > history of the U.S. stock market.
> >
> >
> > I am the first president in U.S. history to enter
> > office with a criminal record.
> >
> >
> > I set the the all-time record for most days on
> > vacation in any one year period.
> >
> >
> > After taking-off the entire month of August, I
> > presided over the worst security failure in
> > U.S.history.
> >
> >
> > I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical
> > Bunker Buster," a WMD.
> >
> >
> > In my State Of The Union Address, I lied about our
> > reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on
> > our British friends.
> >
> >
> > I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips
> > by a U.S. president.
> >
> >
> > In my first year in office over 2-million Americans
> > lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.
> >
> >
> > I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a
> > 12-month period.
> >
> >
> > I appointed more convicted criminals to administration
> > than any president in U.S. history.
> >
> >
> > I set the record for least amount of press conferences
> > than any president since the advent of television.
> >
> >
> > I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S.
> > history and refused to intervene when corruption
> > involving the oil industry was revealed.
> >
> >
> > I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S.
> > history.
> >
> >
> > I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and
> > support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops
> > and their families -- in war time.
> >
> >
> > I have set the all-time record for most people
> > worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public
> > venues (15 million people) shattering the record for
> > protest against any person in the history of mankind.
> >
> >
> > I've broken more international treaties than any
> > president in U.S. history.
> >
> >
> > I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the
> > richest of any administration in U.S. history. My
> > "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron
> > oil tanker named after her.
> >
> >
> > I am the first president in U.S. history to order an
> > unprovoked, pre-emptive attack and the military
> > occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the
> > will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S.
> > citizens, and the world community.
> >
> >
> > I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the
> > largest bureaucracy in the history of the United
> > States government .
> >
> >
> > I am the first president in U.S. history to have the
> > United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights
> > Commission.
> >
> >
> > I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.
> >
> >
> > I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. prisoners
> > of war" detainees) and thereby have refused to abide
> > by the Geneva Convention.
> >
> >
> > I am the first president in history to refuse United
> > Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S.
> > election).
> >
> >
> > I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for
> > receiving the most corporate campaign donations.
> >
> >
> > My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of
> > my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the
> > largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. history. My
> > political party used the Enron private jets and
> > corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S.
> > Supreme Court during my election decision. I have
> > protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against
> > investigation or prosecution. More time and money was
> > spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than
> > has been spent investigating one of the biggest
> > corporate ripoffs in history.
> >
> >
> > I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the
> > World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later
> > made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the
> > largest failure of diplomacy in world history.
> >
> >
> > I am first president in history to have a majority of
> > Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest
> > threat to world peace and security.
> >
> >
> > I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals
> > to be awarded government contracts.
> >
> >
> > I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring
> > Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to justice.
> >
> >
> > RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
> >
> >
> > All records of my tenure as Governor of Texas are now
> > in my father's library, sealed, and unavailable for
> > public view.
> >
> >
> > All records of SEC investigations into my insider
> > trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in
> > secrecy and unavailable for public view.
> >
> >
> > All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my
> > Vice-President, attended regarding public energy
> > policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
> > public review.
> >
> >
> > Please consider my experience when voting in 2004 -
> >
> > Send this to every voter you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 08:36 PM

As regards that Transcript, bear in mind that thew whole site is a parody of Bush.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: PapaWhiskey
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:18 PM

I wondered if the transcript was a hoax, too.

I looked around and found that the transcript was first published in The New Yorker magazine in November 1999, apparently having been obtained by some Yale students under shady circumstances. Nothing I read from 1999 questioned the accuracy of published Bush transcript or suggested that it was a hoax.

Yale
Daily News article from November 1999


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 06:56 AM

Didn't he fail a degree in humanity ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:00 PM

No, Dave, he didn't. Ask any Iraqi man or woman on the street.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Peg
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:06 PM

a 77 is a C+.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 01:28 PM

Both those links point to the Yale article.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 03:17 PM

Dave Bryant asked if Bush hadn't failed a degree in humanity, and DougR replied: "No, Dave, he didn't. Ask any Iraqi man or woman on the street."

That's an exclusively American take on Iraq, DougR. One would have to find a)live Iraqis b)uninjured Iraqis c)untraumatized Iraqis d)Iraqis who have not lost limbs, homes, families, and/or friends.

I have Iraqi friends in Canada who have lost relatives and friends in Iraq to the American invasion. These are Iraqi people who fled Saddam, but hate what the Americans have done as much as they hated Saddam.

You really have to stop listening to and repeating rhetoric. It has no meaning in this scenario, even if it's well-intentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: kendall
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:54 PM

Ask the dead, Doug.

Also, Woodrow Wilson was the only president to hold a degree in history. In my opinion that is a damn site more important than learning how to exploit people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:24 PM

"You have to stop listening to and repeating rhetoric." PDC: what in the world do you think you have been doing?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:41 PM

from what I have gleaned from an Iraqi who has been there, the word on the streets of Baghdad is: "Rah el sani', ija el ussta" - "gone is the apprentice, in comes the master."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:43 PM

Mets, what do you think that really means? It perplexes me....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 11:52 PM

basically, Saddam Hussein was the bought and paid for minion of the US for a quarter of a century and having failed to perform his duties to US interests in a pleasing and obedient manner, it was time to replace him with a real professional. You don't have to be in the country physically to be a despot. By definition, any totalitarian imposition of absolute rule upon a country from within or without constitiutes a dictatorship and is the antithesis of democracy. The US didn't decide that Iraq needed democracy, it decided that it needed a new dictator and who could you possibly trust more than yourself. George has just taken the game of lawn darts a little too far.

I only post this to give those who have some stored up venom to spew, a target.*BG*


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:24 AM

Metchosin: Except for the fact that it would be rude to do so, I was tempted to post: "horse pucky." The Iraqi people are better off without Saddam, and I think reasonable people would agree with that. Only dyed-in-the-wool Marxists would believe that Saddam should have stayed in power. My opinion only of course.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:30 AM

at what point did I suggest that Saddam Hussein should stay in power, he was a wretched little man and I am glad he is gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:54 AM

DougR, as a previous president once said: "read my lips." No one -- NO ONE -- agreed that Saddam was anything but evil.

But the removal of Saddam from power was not the reason that Bush invaded Iraq. Not at all. If Bush wants to talk apple pie, democracy, motherhood etc. on going into Iraq, the immediate question is: why not other countries under evil dictators?

Bush lied about his reasons for going into Iraq. It's as simple as that. You feel the Iraqis are better off than they were under Saddam. The Iraqi people don't feel that way: Saddam brutalized, tortured and killed many of them, but the US bombed all of them.

Answer one question: if the aim was to remove Saddam, why didn't they go after him directly, instead of attacking his entire country? Thousands of Iraqis died in that invasion, while Saddam had the best protection and was the safest man in the country.

The answer, of course, is oil and Halliburton, as the future will clearly show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 07:06 AM

There are three degeees in USA

BS MS and PHD

Thats

BullShit

More Shit

and

Piled High and Deep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:07 AM

Does this thread explain the phrase "death by degrees"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:19 AM

A lot of Masters degrees now have a non-thesis option, owing to the fact that many students are adults who work full-time, and simply may not have the time to write one. HOWEVER....... candidates still have to pass an exam and maintain a portfolio of their work. It isn't like a non-thesis option gets you off any hooks. You still have to do the work.

There's been quite a few of our Presidents who didn't go to college at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 11:37 AM

"Only dyed-in-the-wool Marxists would believe that Saddam should have stayed in power"

Marxists? What did Iraqs form of fascism have to do with Marxism, any more than ours does?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:15 PM

PDC: I respectfully disagree (surprise!)

The U. S. could not go after Saddam directly. There is a law against it! You would argue, I suppose, that the law should have been disreguarded.

If you believe the Iraqi people were better off having Saddam as their leader, then we are completely in disagreement.

The sad old argument that the reason we freed Iraq was to get their oil is pure horse pucky.

If you, and those who think like you were in charge, Saddam and the likes of him would be over in London today rather than the leader of the free world.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:32 PM

Lemme see, Doug -- if I understand you correctly, it would be illegal to try to remove a single national leader through surreptitious means and therefore, rightly, we did not do so; but ignoring the UN and launching a unilateral invasion of a foreign sovereign nation on fictitious grounds is proper and legal and needed to be done. Correct? Likewise, the necessary deaths of hundreds of Iraqi, British, and American personnel, military or not, in this pursuit were just the unfortunate expense of doing things the right way. Is that the deal?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM

"The U. S. could not go after Saddam directly. There is a law against it!"

Good grief. Two points: since when has the US ever regarded a law against taking out a foreign leader that they didn't like? Read your own history!

And there isn't a law against bombing a country that has done nothing to your country? What about a moral code?

The US has considered itself above the law -- especially international law -- and any moral law -- for decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 12:53 PM

And Saddam Hussein has never thought HE'S above the law?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:36 PM

Of course he did! See my comments above-thread. But because he thought he was above the law, the Texas Cowboy came riding in with all his guns blasting in all directions, and took out nearly everyone except Saddam.

Who is going to take out Bush, who also considers himself above the law?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:58 PM

Doug I dont think you'll find many Marxists in Iraq....As Saddam got rid of them ,when he was our Tyrant...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:58 PM

Kim C, of course he did, hence the previous reference to the apprentice, that's one of the reasons that that military invaders of other countries are so vilified by some; just because Saddam did it, shouldn't be justification to do the same.

Doug, these are some of the points regarding the invasion and occupying of Iraq, where I agree with one of your past Presidents, who believed that an invasion of Iraq, and I quote "would have incurred incalculable human and political costs."

"Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish."

"...the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome."

and regarding occupying Baghdad:

"The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well."

all of these points and there are more, still stand, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 02:01 PM

pdc, I think I have become an echo from the hills here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 02:30 PM

You have snow there, Metchosin? We got a sprinkle this morning, which is melting now. Ick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 02:39 PM

It isn't against international law that a country can invade another, where's the difference, Iraq/Kuwait & US/Iraq? Does the Geneva Convention not cover the US (keeping track of civilians killed, protecting museums & hospitals, rights of prisoners of war, what weapons are not allowed-cluster bombs, etc)? Aren't we violating the human rights of others? The UN should've declared & condemned us as rouge nation (no backbone when concerning the US). We may not invaded only for the oil but it wasn't for the freedom of others either. Sure most hated Saddam, as a foreign invader/occupier they hate us just as much, can that be reason enough for an international coupe? Aren't we the be all to beat all asking others to help pay the bills & die for a war that they refused to have any part of, ("bugger off you started it you finish it")? Nixon thought he was above the law didn't he? "Saddam and the likes of him would be over in London today rather than the leader of the free world". Isn't that what we were told, it's only 45 minutes to doomsday & as for being the leader of the free world, you're joking right, freedom at the point of a gun more likely. The law of might means right, the law of survival at the cost to others, the law of the weak & strong, the law of we will replace your government with those that will serve our desires, I don't believe these are laws either. The Iraqi people went from the frying pan straight into the fire. I can't see where in history has the invasion of a country been truly justified because of a difference in culture, religion, ideology & ethnicity. This belief in forcibly imposing our values on others is this what we call freedom & democracy? Please, we had no justification in invading Iraq & killing probably as many civilians as Saddam did. We didn't even try diplomacy, Bush isn't capable, he's a shoot from the hip kind of reactionary who'll try to fix it up & justify what was done later when it's to late & all is said & done & in the past. I just don't understand how anyone can follow this logic & think that it's ok to shoot to kill & ask survivors questions later. Are we reliving Judge Roy Bean & the wild west are we still the only law west of the Pecos, where the speed of a gun is the law of the land, haven't we evolved at all for the better, no I guess not. Where does it say & where is it written that we are the soul international judge, jury & executioner & that we should be allowed to preside over all? Any who would support this way of life (or death) really needs a reality check & needs to rethink the difference between right & wrong & check out what's happening under their own sheets first.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 02:55 PM

pdc, nary a flake on this hill aside frome me, odd eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:51 AM

JESUS GOD! DON"T YOU PEOPLE EVER LEARN? The people who wrote the article that Bill D quotes at the begining of this thread have both been personally arrested by me as members of the Lyndon LaRouche cult on Oct 6 1986 in Leesburg, Virginia. Both of them were LaRouches direct contact with Roy Frankhouser, who was at that time the head of the White Socialist Workers Party after Frankhouser was unseated as the Grand Dragon of the KKK in Pennsylvania. Frankhouser was convicted in Boston in 1987, however both Goldstein and Steinburgs cases went to a mistrial. They were not reindicted in VA as so many of the LaRouchies were (and all of those convicted in Dec 87) but you could not find a larger group of anti semites in the world. (Run the names past the ADL if you don't believe me, or find a copy of any paper in the nation for 10/6/86). At that time it was the largest police raid in our Nations history with 475 police and Federal law enforcement hitting LaRouche entities all over the Nation. AND IT WAS MY WARRANT...

Bill, you are truely a nice guy and I love your wood work, but find out about these people before you quote them. They live to find useful fools.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:16 PM

The saddest thing about the state of the US now is that even a few years ago, Claymore's post would have provided proof of something. Even now, it probably does -- the men arrested were probably guilty.

But we are no longer in a position to believe anything about arrests, guilt, evidence, proof, whatever. Lies, whitewash, coverups -- all of these behaviours going on over the last few years have convinced both Americans and others to either believe nothing, or to believe whatever matches their convictions.

Sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:27 PM

If the U. S., Great Britain, and other allies do not take on the terrorists, who will? The U.N.? Don't make me laugh. The U. N. doesn't even back up it's own rules. As one of our Vice Presidents said one time about the value of the office he occupied (borrowing liberally from John Nance Garner's quote), "the U. N. is about as useless as a bucket full of spit."

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 10:32 PM

DougR, it is still my belief that acts of terrorism and the financing thereof are criminal acts and as such, should be prosecuted within the criminal justice system.

The UK did not bomb The Republic of Ireland when the IRA was conducting acts of terrorism within the UK. In this context, it seems very bizarre indeed that Blair could ever justify military action in Iraq, for acts of terrorism committed by criminals on US soil.

The Criminal Justice System may take a lot longer to work out and it is certainly not without flaw, but it has far fewer flaws and dire political ramifications than knee jerk military campaigns.

If we abandon the rule of law for "cowboy justice" on an international level, we lower the standards of the behavior of the state and present a reprehensible benchmark for others to emulate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:02 PM

Well said, Metchosin. I remember in the aftermath of 9/11, I and most people I know were thinking Interpol, or some put-together international police action against terrorists. When Bush IDEOLOGIZED this act of terrorism and made it political, involving governments and countries, we all shuddered, knowing where that imitation cowboy would go, using other people's lives. And of course he did, but went further and in different directions than anyone could have anticipated.

What if he had treated Al Qaeda as a militant group of criminal terrorists, and had gone after them with law instead of an act of war? Can't help but wonder, just as we all wonder how much better things would have turned out had Gore been able to take his rightful place as POTUS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's degree
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:03 PM

Metchosin: which criminal justice system?

DougR


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