BS: Any vegans?

Subject: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:26 AM

I was just wondering -- any vegans, or vegetarians, or generally... people interested in animal welfare/rights here?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peg
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:32 AM

Vegetarianism need not, nor does it always by any means, go hand in hand with animal rights...and one can be an animal rights supporter and still be a non-vegetarian, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:53 AM

Yeah, that's why I said vegetarians OR animal rights supporters :-). To me it does seem a tad hypocritical though - being non-vegetarian and an animal rights supporter... unless one gets one meat *humanely*. It's like being a human rights worker, and telling people in some far off country to treat people right... but then, back at home, slaughtering your neighbours. Just an opinion, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 10:55 AM

Not really, but I have a 3o year deal with 4 legged critters that if they don't chew on me I won't chew on them... Fish and occasional fowl is a different story...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:02 AM

Given that rationale, you'd have to consider all carnivores as immoral killers.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:08 AM

"you'd have to consider all carnivores as immoral killers"

I can live with that label...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:23 AM

yup - they probably are :-). But that isn't the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:24 AM

Someone, I can't remember who, once said, if Nature didn't intend us to eat animals, why did She make them taste so good?

Sorry vegans, I'm just teasing.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:36 AM

All Gods creatures have a place...

Right beside the mashed potatoes...

:-)

Eat up vegans... when the big crash comes and the cattle take back thier freedom, we carnivores are coming looking for your grain-fed backsides!

And we'll wear your pelts in winter!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:44 AM

Very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peg
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:53 AM

I consider myself an animal rights activist and was quite involved in the cause for years. I did dislike the fanaticism I ran into...you could not be too correct for some of them; everyone was looking with suspicion at your shoes etc.. I eat meat now, and always try to buy humanely-raised products because the factory farming industry needs to be improved on so many levels, not just for animals' well-being but for human health as well.
My leather clothing is all vintage/thrift shop (recycling!) and I do not wear fur.
It does seem to be a part of human evolution to eat animals, but chasing down a caribou with a spear is a far cry from bludgeoning a cow with a steel club. I think it's a shame we cannot buy meat "on the hoof" anymore, as this is a nice reminder of the life sacrificed to feed us...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:54 AM

"the factory farming industry needs to be improved on so many levels, not just for animals' well-being but for human health as well."

Here here!

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:02 PM

Yeah, if your meat is humanely raised, I guess it's ok - I'd just rather not eat it. Not because it's *wrong*... right now I'm too confused about the whole right-wrong issue... but because I CAN'T possibly eat an animal - I'd feel terrible. And there's the whole world-hunger-environment argument. I don't wear the leather stuff I already own only because I think it's kind of nice to spread the message that it's easy to live without leather... and wool... and other animal products. It's just a matter of me being satisfied... and happy... I'd rather cause as little suffering as I can (NOTE: I didn't say 'no suffering) :-).

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM

Sorry, but wearing wool doesn't hurt the sheep any at all.....in fact, NOT shearing will cause problems for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:16 PM

"in fact, NOT shearing will cause problems for them"

Yeah? I didn't know that - what problems? I've just seen all these photos and videos and the like... that have miserable sheep - sick... with cuts on them... and horribly treated. So I've never felt like using wool.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:21 PM

I can understand vegetarianism (or even Veganism, I suppose) as a lifestyle choice. Hell, most of the food is pretty damn tasty. And plenty of people I know just don't like meat.

I just don't get the "ethical choice" bit. It sounds pretty naive to me. Want to be a Jain and limit the suffering you might cause something somewhere sometime? Why not just end it all and have done? Then you can revel in your righteousness as you gasp out your last breath. Just try not to inhale any insects as you go or crush any tiny creatures during your death throes.

Life is pain and pleasure in combination. And everything you do will have both positive and negative effects and we can't predict all the possible ramifications of our actions or inactions. I applaud your wishing not to cause suffering. I think most human beings have that wish.

But the animals who are dead aren't using their skin any more (that's recycling) and the sheep don't have to die to give up their wool. And if we didn't use these animals, they wouldn't exist. Period. They are domesticated animals that have been bred for the purposes we have for them. Aurochs are extinct. The cow is common.

Would it not cause suffering to condemn the cow to extinction because we don't wish to use its meat or milk or skin any more? You think people would keep them as house pets?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:22 PM

All sheep are miserable. It's their lot. That's why we have Karma.   ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:26 PM

"You think people would keep them as house pets?"

It'd be like living with a bass player...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:27 PM

*shudder*

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:35 PM

Do you know why the big acoustic bass is called "double Bass?"

I didn't either---now I have two of them....

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 12:47 PM

The un shorn wool gets terribly matted, full of sticks, etc, and will cause horrible sores on the skin. A sheep CAN be shorn by an expert with NO cuts at all......but, not just by Joe Blow. Sheep shearing is an art, no doubt about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

I tend to shy away from moral positions on the topic of vegetarianism (in all its guises). So too do I stay away from the biblical "We are stewards of the Earth" stuff--we have fu##ed that up. I eat little animal protein because it often tastes like s#it. So, I stumble along balancing amino acids and enzymes. Frankly, we have people starving to death daily, and the rights of a chicken just don't rank at the moment. I have had to put down a few dogs and cats over the years, and it has never given me a sense of pleasure. However, Bossy's problems in the north forty just don't compare to the human issues we all face. That's my two cents.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 02:27 PM

(Welcome to the looney bin, er, party, EP) It seems that most folks on this thread aren't actually answering the question. I htought there were more vegetarians (at least) here on the 'Cat. Me, I'm omnivorous, but do my best not to waste anything (soup stock from bones, etc). And I'm always looking for vegetarian/vegan recipes to expand my cooking repertoire.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 02:41 PM

Vegan vegans began boiling Vegan vegan vegetables before Vegan vegan breakfast.

Thought it up the other day and I've been dying to use it.

I'm omnivorious by choice. I also hunt. Don't bug me about it, my choices are mine and yours are yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:13 PM

This seems a good place to have a question answered: What is the vegan rationale on not eating eggs or using milk? I understand the concept of not harming or killing animals but how did not using their products come about?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:24 PM

If my gut is to be believed, I gotta follow the school of thought that says milk isn't good for any adult...

make up for it in cheese though...

Mmmmmmmm.....

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM

I vaguely remember Vegans from a Star Trek episode..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:53 PM

Two words: Oral Sex--Vegans don't do that? (Hell, I'm in Alberta--we don't know what the rest of the world does.)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 03:54 PM

Sorry about the post above. I had just come from the Dirty Limericks thread, and I got confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:39 PM

It is a sticky topic, brucie.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:52 PM

I used to do Aikido, an odd "martial" art where you (ideally) defend yourself without harming your attacker, and using muscular strength is a fault. You use ki, or chi energy instead, whatever that is. You can't have an Aikido match because an Aikidoist doesn't attack.

Tohei, the last personal student of the originator, Morihei Ueshiba, has carried it farther and works with ki as a healing energy.

So I was iinterested to hear what Tohei said about diet; I expected him to recommend tofu and brown rice. Wrong.

He said it doesn't matter what you eat; what matters is that you be properly grateful. Because even if it's a carrot, it has given its life for you. He likes beer & pizza.

My twin granddaughters, who are close to your age, got in trouble being vegans; they had severe protien deficiencies, anemia and faintiing. So be careful.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:22 PM

Yes, we have vegetarians and vegans here. Don't know why none of them have checked in. The egg thing I can understand for vegans--an egg would be a viable animal if allowed to develop, but cheese, yogurt,etc. I don't understand. Ever see a cow in dire need of milking? She is in PAIN! What can it hurt to use the milk, cheese, etc? Her calf has plenty.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:27 PM

Sometimes people complain that vegans are a pain in the ass to cook for, but it ain't so. I have a good tip, developed from cooking for vegans at Mudcat Gatherings.


We offer two crockpots for Friday night arrivals. I start with ONE pot, making a very rich vegetable stock first. Sometimes I have it on hand already, frozen. Next I add the solid veg matter, add basic herbs, and let it cook just a bit. Anything fozen is nuked first so it goes in warm.

Once the flavors have begun to blend, I divide all that in half, putting half in the meateaters' crockpot. To each pot I now add the protein.

For vegans this will be pre-cooked beans or lentils, usually a mix of several varieties. Tofu also sometimes goes in, stir-fried first to add flavor and solidify the texture a bit. Seasonings are corrected/added.

The meateaters' pot gets cubed, pre-cooked meat. (I keep a couple of pounds of leftover roast meat in the freezer, so it's just thaw and cube and toss in.) Seasonings are corrected/added.

I top these off with added liquid if needed. V-8 or canned tomato sauce for the vegan pot, milk or canned broth for the other. Seasonings are again corrected. No salt-- people have to add it if they want it.

As the first arrrivals come in, I start the rice or couscous pot. We lay out all this with serving spoons, plus optional grated/cubed cheese and the bread and beverages that arrivals always bring, also wedges of lemon and bottles of hot sauce... a cutting board and serrated knife... I leave the glassware cabinet door open just above the food. I set out the full dishwasher-basket of clean silverware, napkins, a stack of our metal prison trays, as well as all the bowls we have.

It's not that hard to include vegans in large-scale cooking. I can do all this in about an hour, if I start with a clean kitchen and the freezer is well stocked. Before going to bed, I combine the two crocks' leftover contents and any leftover rice, and save it for the post-Gathering days when I don't feel like cooking for us.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Homeless
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:54 PM

Why does an animal have any more rights than a plant? Plants are alive too.

If we aren't supposed to eat humans, why are they made of meat?

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:01 PM

Yeah, just `cause you can't hear a carrot scream when you yank it out of the ground, wipe it off on tour trousers and start chewing bits of it off, from the bottom up, doesn't mean it isn't murder too.


Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

If trees could scream, I wonder if we'd be so cavalier about cutting them down?

Maybe.

If they screamed all the time.

For no good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:29 PM

No, it really isn't hard to cook for the veggie ones, either kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:34 PM

Waiter, I'll have the NY sirloin, medium well, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:43 PM

Yeah, Tohei is right.

For what it proves, my very own brother showed (to his satisfaction anyway) that plants feel pain. Eating fruit stops a potential new life, and, I suppose, eating anything else does as well.

Recognize the Cycle and remember that YOU, personally, are part of it. YOU have eaten and YOU will be eaten.

Then, as Tohei said, be grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:54 PM

I've never met anyone from the planet Vega...

One of the best things a Vegetarian friend did for me was to introduce me to Carob Bars, many years ago. I lost contact with her, but I do believe she eventually starved to death, but then being a Vegetarian was the least of her problems...

The Banquest above sounds great. I am omnivorous. I do like vegetables, even SOME Vegetarian dishes. I eat meat, and eggs and fish for protein - brain food. And I do like the taste of properly prepared meat.

I'm also a Sushi (and Sashimi!) lover. The wasabi contains enzymes that help digest the uncooked fish protein. Japanese mix the green paste with a little soy sauce in those tiny bowls - it takes away the firey taste.

Sashimi (uncooked fish) grade fish is special. Firstly, the Japanese do not eat freshwater fish uncooked, only ocean fish - it's to do with the parasite factor. It is individually caught on a hand line, rapidly landed, then immediately stabbed thru the brain with a sharp knife. Fish fillets treated this way will keep for up to 10 days on ice and stay totally transulescent without any smell of "fishiness" or signs of going off. "Normally" caught "commercial" fish thrash around and pump large quantities of lactic acid into the flesh, which turns it white - it partly cooks it! "I've grown accustomed to the taste..."

I could probably live on Sushi (and sashimi) exclusively for the rest of my life - only 2 hassles - it's expensive if bought because of the hands on preparation time, and while cheap if home made - the preparation time is not quick...

There's a guy in Sydney Australia who is now supplying the trade with proper Sashimi grade fish.

BTW, there's about half a dozen different traditional styles of Sushi - in commercial establishments, you normally only see one type, as well as "California Sushi". Actually Korean Sushi is not as sweet as Japanese - they use less sugar.

Robin the Foodie...
(Now I'm Hungry...)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 06:55 PM

If we speared cows and wore loincloths while doing it, would it be alright to eat them?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:05 PM

"NY sirloin, medium well,"

Why ruin a good cut of meat by overcooking it???

LOL

And what if the cows had the loincloths and the spears? Think they'd bother hunting us?

I doubt it...

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:07 PM

there are several reasons why people become vegan/vegetarian

health: they feel that cholesterol, etc. is a problem...
taste: they decide for some reason they don't LIKE meat
religious: they suscribe to some doctrine (i.e. Jainism) that teaches something about 'souls' or 'karma'...etc..
BBES: "Big Brown Eyes Syndrome"

I tend to think that 6 million years of evolution has made me an omnivore, and my ancestors thousands of generations removed did what they did naturally, with no 'activists' to tell them otherwise....therefore....

(yes, eating more fish & veggies wouldn't hurt me, I just don't intend to give up a major pleasure for some arcane idea about animal 'rights' that barely existed in times past)

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ethereal Purple
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:10 PM

I'm not vegan because of any of the reasons Bill spoke of, though I have found that I'm healthier now. I used to be a perpetually sick person! Clint - maybe your grand daughters didn't substitute for protein and calcium and everything else that they were missing out on.

I don't really know how things are in the US, etc; My only source for the conditions there is the net, and judging from what I've heard, PETA isn't a very reliable source? I guess, unless it's factory farming, the animals might not be treated so terribly? I have actually seen the way animals are treated here in India though, and it's appalling.

It isn't so much the actual killing of the animals that I feel strongly about - more the amount the animal has to suffer before its death. I used to eat eggs earlier; I only stopped because I saw the way the chickens were treated *shudders*. I don't really care about the taking-a-life argument, and this isn't a religious choice. Likewise milk - the cows suffer ever so much.

Someone I know, who's into organic farming, and tries to live a "humane, environment-friendly lifestyle" has a couple of cows who have not been genetically-bred to produce more milk (and live a shorter life, often)... and who aren't fed any chemicals/anitbiotics. He lets the calves drink their share, and found that he got milk only a couple of months in a year... and hardly any of it. Which kind of shows that it isn't natural the way the cows are treated.

I'd also rather not drink milk, because I think it supports the meat industry - the male calves are almost always killed, because they aren't needed. Except for the few that become bulls for artificial insemination - which seems a pretty ghastly life too. And yeah, the cows wouldn't be there if they weren't milked - but I think not existing would be better than living a short, miserable life. And anyway, it isn't as if the whole world will turn vegan one day - and all the cows will be left with nothing to do!

The whole thing isn't about 'animal rights' or morality (for me at least). So, it isn't about animals having more right than a plant. It's just about my conscience... and what I feel. And I definitely feel that an animal would feel more pain than a plant. So, I'd definitely feel better eating a plant than an animal. Besides, that argument is quite irrelevant - because every animal you eat eats ever so many plants. So, if you're eating the animal - you're eating both the animal and the plants... and SO MANY more plants than you'd eat, if you were eating them directly.

I've been a vegetarian all my life, so I guess that's just the way I was brought up. And veganism made sense to me, so I'm now a vegan. I just don't feel the need to use something that I don't think was meant for me to use. It's just a personal choice, and I don't say that everyone else should be vegan too.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 11:22 PM

As I said, EP, it's your choice. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. You want to walk the vegan road, okay. I'll respect your decision if you respect mine.

I don't like farmed animals. If I could, I'd eat only meat I raised and butchered myself. Likewise grains and vegetables. Then I could guarentee that it was done the way I think it should be. But I can't, so I make compromises. We all make them.

Just be thankful that you have something to eat. Wheat, rice, rat, beef, carrots, potatoes, pork, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,chip2447
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:07 AM

Anyone for VEAL cutlets? To not eat meat is a choice, to eat meat is an instinct.
My choice is to follow my instincts and be a carnivore/omnivore.

I wear leather and wool and have been known to masacre naga's to make nagahyde upholstery.

I dont support cosmetic testing on amimals, however, medical testing is a necessity, unless we can convince people who are incarcarated to be our test subjects.

I dont eat eggs...bleech, nor chicken...I do like veal and lamb.

So, I'll just continue in the hunter gatherer niche that evolution chose for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 12:12 AM

"Clint - maybe your grand daughters didn't substitute for protein and calcium and everything else that they were missing out on."

Exactly right. That's why I said to be careful. They were getting proteins, but not the right ones. Being raised vegetarian, though, you probably know more about proper substitution than they did.

But be careful anyway.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 01:23 AM

I wrote a response to a remark way up there, just before the Cat crashed. I wanted to make the point: "An egg is not viable if it's not been fertilized. Unlike cows, chickens produce even if they have not been bred. If there is no rooster in the flock there are no fertile eggs. Just eggs."


Ethereal Purple, I agree that you have a right to eat or not eat whatever you choose. And perhaps in India, culture and husbandry affect your choices. In America, there are a great many variations. For instance, I grew up on a farm; much later I lived on a couple of acres I have in Oregon and there I raised my own chickens and rabbits and hog, not to mention a lush garden. So my viewpoint differs from yours.

Chickens that are free range, as mine were, have happy, busy lives. I didn't eat them (or the rabbits) but I did gather the eggs daily. The egg yolks of free ranging chickens are *very* different from the eggs one gets in the store. Fresh eggs have 'stand up' yolks and the whites mound up around the yolk; they look a great deal like poached eggs, although the yolks are orange, rather than pale. When I was young, we butchered and ate chickens routinely; it didn't seem to bother my mother to kill them, although one of my brothers and I used to hide away so we didn't have to see the process. On the other hand, once they were dead and chilled, I liked dissecting the meat of both chickens and pigs. Go figure.

Cows do *not* suffer from being milked and cows *do* give more milk when they are milked in addition to having a calf on them. Even women give more milk when it is needed for more than one child. It's a natural process.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about family farms- not the mega-industry that is calibrated to the nth degree of efficiency, and culling is practiced when that efficiency falls.

Yikes. I just deleted a couple of paragraphs on commercial chicken and calf raising that is just too depressing. Cat sakes. It's enough to make one vegetarian. But not vegan- to me, vegan is the equivalent of a religious teaching that condemns contraception. I can see why abortion is controversial. Intervening with the fertilization process, on the other hand, imo does not constitute doing harm to a human being.

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: harlowpoet
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 04:45 AM

I have been vegan thirteen years, and is because I oppose factory farming and all the other forms of abuse carried out by humans against the animal kingdom.

What annnoys more me more than anything is when you go on a meal and are asked, so why are you a vegan then. My answer is usually a rude reply now, as I am fed up having to justify myself time and time again. If I asked so why are you a meat eater?, I would be accused of shoving my opinions down someones throat.

Next time you're out with a vegan/veggie, for a meal. I suggest you avoid all mention of the subject at the dinnertable, and research it for yourself some other time.

Happy Christmas dinner. Enjoy the nut roast

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 04:54 AM

I was vegetarian for 8 years, spent 5 years working in a Vegetarian restaurant and still eat the odd veggie meal now and then.

I gave up being vegetarian because I became poor. I was in rented accommodation and on the dole, so my money had to last. It turned out that after all my bills were paid, I had £5.00 a week to buy a book or my food. I have a huge amount of books and I bummed a lot of meals during that period! I decided that it was a greater sin to waste food that was already prepared, than it was to consider the ethics that went into preparing it. Someone was willing to feed me for nothing, why should I then insult them by turning down that food because it wasn't what I ate?

On the other side of the coin, as the decendant of a long line of shepherds, farmers and agricultural labourers; if the consumption of meat and all its' by-products (wool, leather, dairy, eggs etc,) were to cease, how many people would then be out of work and homeless? I know one family at least - my uncle works on a dairy farm and lives in a tied cottage (Cross Pond translation - a 'tied cottage' is a dwelling that goes with the job, you quit/lose your job, you lose your house). When he retires, he has 6 months to find a new house, and the farm owner will help him, if he continues to help out on the farm. If he quit or was fired now, he'd be homeless next week because the owner can find someone else tomorrow to take his place.

The key to the whole thing is balance - just as you must balance your own life and nourishment, you must also consider the lives of others. If you wish to make a political statement whilst living the lifestyle you choose, then try to eat organic, free-range or humanely treated produce. Buy recycled goods, recycle your own discards, use only products that are humanely produced. Support charities that encourage human development and growth, rather than those that just give handouts (the Christian Aid slogan - 'we believe in life before death' says it all) and buy fair trade products where possible.

Of course, this isn't practicable to most people, but if you just change one aspect of your lifestyle, it's a change for the better.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Any vegans?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 08:47 AM

If no one ate meat, who would pay for the cow retirement homes?

Jerry