The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?

Subject: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:15 PM

Back in the 60s, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Carolyn Hester and Buff St. Marie were referred to collectively as " The Four Queens of Folk". Now 40 years on, what is their legacy? Which of them has best stood the test of time? Who is your favourite?

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,James
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:23 PM

I think Judy Collins has proven, over time, to be the most enduring and perhaps the most talented. Joan Baez certainly brought folk to the masses.\, and I do admire her social activism. As for Carolyn Hester and Buffy St. Marie, I just don't think they were ever in the same league. Neither is a very good singer althought St. Marie wrote some good songs. A good question but hard to answer because of all of the women not mentioned.....Odetta, Peggy seeger, jean ritchie and so on.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:46 PM

Having just heard Joan Baez in a recent concert, I think she has abandoned folk. Her set still includes "folk" material---some Guthrie, et al; but her backup is very rock. This doesn't negate her impact on the folk scene, nor does it lessen her legacy. It just seems a shame that she has changed her style. Judy, too, has moved to a much less traditional sound for backup. I guess the old "girl and her guitar" way of presenting folk material has not been lucrative enough.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 04:12 PM

The inclusion of Carolyn Hester as a more-or-less equal with the other three members of this pantheon would seem to date this set of four queens back to the early-early sixties.

For those of you too young to remember, Ms. Hester is most notable for having been Richard Farina's first wife (preceding Mimi Baez), and for featuring Bob Dylan as a backing musician (harmonica) on one of her albums -- it was Bob's first appearance on record.

It is undoubtedly unfair that she be remembered for these associations and not for her own great beauty and lovely voice. She was undoubtedly the most purely "folk" of this group, if only because she had disappeared from sight before getting an opportunity to "sell out," diversify, whatever.

By the *late* sixties, I'd say you'd have to include Joni Mitchell as first among equals, in a class with Joan and Judy.

Judy Collins introduced the idea of "art song" to the folk audience -- well, to this member of the audience, anyway. I think the concept meant contemporary songwriting that didn't have to pretend to be "folk." Judy came from a classical-music background, knew all about the Brecht-Weill operettas, etc.. This approach certainly influenced the later careers of those other women, especially Joni, who went on to create songs that increasingly defied classification by genre.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 06:33 PM

I am not sure that the "girl and her guitar" was necessarily a more appropriate way of performing folk music than with the kind of ensemble that Joan Baez uses now--it was performing style that was contemporary in the sixties, the way that performing with a small band is contemporary now--

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:23 PM

Agree with Judy, Joan & Buffy being up there, but Odetta would have to win the place allocated to Carolyn (in my-never-humble-opinion).
(And of course we're only talkin' 'bout North America here .......)

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:44 PM

As one who started to listen to Folk about 1963 (and stuck with it in the face of Beatle mania, and all that followed), I have never heard of Carolyn Hester. I have records by Barbara Dane and Judy Henske (one of Henske's is actually good), but no Carolyn Hester. Top female folkies should include Sylvia (Fricker) Tyson, Mary Travers and Joni Mitchell, all of whom had a profound affect on music, not just Folk music.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:16 PM

I thought part of this whole joke was that Elton John was one of "The Queens of Rock"... :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:18 AM

Never heard of Carolyn Hester.

Joni Mitchell - folk music? Any relationship is coincidental.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:41 AM

Hmmm. I thought the "four queens of folk" were The Four Marys, although I suppose one could argue they weren't queens, really.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:59 AM

Carolyn Hester: some historical notes.

I heard Carolyn perform live in London in the early 1960s and was knocked out by her voice, and her ability to dramatise a song. Later I acquired a copy of her album with Dylan on harmonica, and enjoyed that too. I still play it occasionally, and although some of the arrangements now sound dated, it continues to give me pleasure.

In recent years I've heard her singing occasionally on UK radio , and she still seems to do a very competent job. (Though if she has made any records recently, they don't show up in the stores I visit.)

As regards her influence on the folk movement - well, I understand that Carolyn has given useful help and encouragement to younger singers (including, I believe, Nancy Griffith) which should earn her some credit.

Lifetime achievement? Maybe not as ample a CV as Baez, Collins, St Marie or Mitchell, but how many of us Catters can claim to have achieved anywhere near as much?

Wassail!

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:02 PM

Looking back to the 1960's, it seems to me the four most important women based here in the States were Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Jean Ritchie and Odetta. If I were add a 5th it would be Joni Mitchell.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Dr.Quelch
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM

Regardless of politics and having enjoyed hearing all the "Queens" in this thread, one cannot deny that Joan Baez has the clearest, truest delivery of all. Like a veritable, perfectly tuned be bell.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:36 PM

I think that to discuss this thoroughly we have to look at those that followed, whether your "queen" is Joan, Judy, Carolyn, Buffy, Joni, Odetta, Janis, Mary, or anyone else. Look at where women folksingers are now, compared to where they were then. THEN discuss who had the most influence on them.

Try working backwards from today, in other words. You might find that the woman who most influenced today's women folksingers (and men, too!) was someone called "None Of The Above."

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Willie-O
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:52 PM

The Queens of Folk? There's an oxymoron for starters. Why do there have to be four? Magic number?

Only one mentioned so far that I ever met is Carolyn Hester. Sold her an ice-cream bar at the Kerrville Folk Fest once. A lovely and charming lady.

I was fascinated to read about how, with ample provocation, she pulled a gun on Farina once and offered to blow his brains out. (It was his gun, which he had insisted that she carry across the border for him; this occurred in France) It seems he was a very manipulative and ambitious person, and married her largely because she was the leading female light on the scene at the time, before displaced by Baez.

That's what I hear, anyway, how would I know? I was in kindergarten.

W-O

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:07 PM

Only time I ever heard Joni Mitchell live was at the folk club [Club 47?] off Harvard Square, about 1967. Her Urge For Going had been made popular by Tom Rush. If that doesn't make her a folkie, what does?
Anyway, as someone pointed out above, 'folk' is not just a North American concept or product. I'd start a discussion about British candidates for queen or king - but I'm a republican!

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 01:21 PM

I've not invented the title "The Four Queens of Folk"; this was a phrase that got a lot of coverage in the music press of the time i.e. the early 60s. Any folkie who was around back then and doesn't know Carolyn Hester's music must not have got around much. Infact, Carolyn had the potential to be much bigger than Baez or Collins. She had an amazing voice ( it's still pretty good now! ), a great repetoire and she was so beautiful! The trouble is, musically, she made all the wrong choices! If she had based herself in the UK back in the 60s ( she came over here back then and caused a right stir!) she would become a household name, occupying the space that Julie Felix would later claim. Likewise, had she got the correct career advice in the States she would have undoubtedly made a major impact. But she got bad advice and ...
p.s. Give a listen to her CBS album that features Dylan, and if you're not impressed then...

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 05:01 AM

You can't talk about ' folk ' queens without mentioning Shirley Collins and Norma Waterson MBE.
eric

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 01:54 PM

Someone has lost the plot here! There was a time when the press referred to Baez, Hester, Collins and St.Marie as the "The Four Queens of Folk". And there was a very good reason for this! Take for example Carolyn Hester's influence on the 60s British folk scene. The songs featured on her CBS album ( the Dylan one) were heard all over the folk scene in Britain. Her tv appearance caused a sensation. She could sing the big ballads, the blues, show tunes ( even today, her version of Summertime is amazing ), protest stuff - Dylan, Spoestra, Paxton etc.She sang beautiful songs in Spanish. She was amazing. I know - just by watching how Jacqui McShee holds herself that her was greatly influenced by Carolyn, and Pentangle " borrowed" a number of songs from Carolyn's repetoire. I've no doubt that Carolyn is one of the giants of the folk revival.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Guest Who
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:01 PM

I'll see your queens and raise you four kings, a couple of jacks and four aces.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 03:20 PM

For those who wish to learn more about Carolyn Hester, try www.carolynhester.com. It indicates that she distributed a record as recently as 2000. Dick Cerri who was the folk-God DJ in Washington, D.C. in the 70's loved Carolyn's music above all the rest of the folk goddesses.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:42 PM

Mary and Betty Weiss, Marge and Mary Ann Ganser. The Four Queens of the early 60's.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 09:08 PM

I'd still put Jean Ritchie way above any of them.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 11:39 PM

Dick Cerri barely understood that there WAS folk before or after the 60s-70s...There were many more women who knew more music and sang it as well or better... Those 4 simply helped make pop-folk a phenomenon, and their real 'legacy', is maybe that a few people found their way to the real stuff because of them.

(opinionated? ME? nawww.....)

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:38 AM

I have always felt that Baez had such an impact that she made it difficult for anybody else ever to sing some of the songs she sang.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 01:10 PM

At one time or the other, I have spent a lot of time listening to Baez, Collins, Hester and St Marie. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but at their best they're all wonderful. Collins singing " My father" is so evocative, so moving. St Marie's Native American songs are so powerful. Hester singing the marvelous "Dink's Song" combines softness and earthy power in a heady mix. And, finally, hearing the early Baez singing great songs from a myriad of sources. Terrific!

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 08:35 AM

Actually, we are only taking about the USA here..In Canada it would have to be Sylvia Tyson, Edith Butler, Laura Smith and Mary Jane Lamond..for me anyway. Rita MacNeil as well..oh so many.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 10:36 AM

Frankie Armstrong, Shirley Collins, Lal Waterson, Norma Waterson. Next Four..Maddy Prior, June Tabor, Sandy Denny, Eliza Carthy.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 11:17 AM

No Jennifer Warnes, June Carter, Dolly Parton?

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 11:56 AM

Hello? Joni Mitchell is Canadian.

The Four Fillies for Canada: Celine Dion, Shania Twain, Alanis Morrisette, Avril Lavigne -- together they have sold at least 100 million records.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 12:03 PM

They have probably sold more..but they ain't folk and two of them have no volume control..........

   I'd go for Shirley Eikhart, Sylvia Tyson, Rita MacNiell, Joni Mitchell and Ellen MacIllwaine.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:40 AM

Norma Waterson;Shirley Collins;Maddy Prior;Annie Briggs.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:47 AM

For the folklorists Jeannie Robertson was the queen of them all.

Subject: RE: The Four Queens of Folk - their legacy?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 11:17 AM

Jeannie Robertson, Jean Ritchie, Margaret Barry...