BS: Has America ever won a war?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 09:16 AM

Ducking the crossfire over the slave trade, thank you Teribus for your post.

One clarification for readers; in the British Army an infantry "Regiment" is not actually a fighting unit. It is an administrative body of men with similar hat badges and base depot and usually the same recruiting area. The fighting unit is the battalion. A regiment may have one or more battalions, athough one battalion is usual nowadays. In the field, battalions are organised, along with armoured and artillery regiments (which are fighting units), into Brigades.

The British Army used to have four Gurkha regiments of one or two battalions from 1948 to 1985 ?? when it was reduced to three, each of one battalion. In 1999, this was reorganised into one regiment of three battalions, thus saving a lot of paperwork. On the other hand, it may have introduced complications and internal friction, as the separate Regiments used to recruit from different areas and tribes (and sometimes different castes) within Nepal.

****

I recall quite well the debates which went on at the time of the Falklands War. Some people suggested that as Nepal wasn't concerned in the South Atlantic dispute, the Gurkhas should have been left out of the Task Force. However, the view that they were soldiers of the British Army above all else prevailed, and off they went.

There was far more acrimonious debate (in the Army, not the British public in general) over why the Welsh Guards and especially the Scots Guards went south. Both were "public duties" battalions i.e. their role was shouting and stamping and parading to and fro outside Buckingham Palace. The British Army maintains a "spearhead" battalion, highly trained and ready to go at a moment's notice. In 1982, this was the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Greenjackets. They were not sent. [There was also an "ACE Mobile Force" battalion, similarly trained and ready, but this was assigned to NATO duties and could not have been used without much complaint from NATO.]

To be fair, the Welsh Guards had only recently finished a tour of duty as the "spearhead" battalion and an intense training spell in Kenya, and was reasonably fit for role. The Scots Guards were in no such shape. In the event, the Welsh Guards suffered the disaster at Bluff Cove, but this is hardly a reflection on the unit itself, while the Scots Guards won the tough and decisive battle for Mount Tumbledown.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 05:09 AM

Ebbie 05 Jan 04 - 11:14 PM.

Before you spout forth why don't you do some research. If the "English" colonists learned the "art of slavery" from anyone it was from the Dutch. Who were established in what became New York. Those particular colonists introduced slavery in 1621. The first "black" slaves (20 of them) brought to an "English" colony were landed from a Dutch ship at Jamestown, their status in the "English" colony was that of indetured servant.

The first slaves used in Cromwell's Commonwealth times in Jamaica were Scots prisoners taken after the Battle of Dunbar.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: toadfrog
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 12:43 AM

The subject is just a bit silly. The United States won a whole lot of wars on its own. Most of them extremely small wars. Can't think of too many modern countries who won big ones on their own, not lately, anyway. I suppose Vietnam defeated the U.S.

Hey Doug! If we had gone all out and "won" in Vietnam, does anyone imagine the world would be a better place today? In exactly what respect would the world be better off? Enough to warrant 10,000 more dead? 100,000? A war with China? I recall Barry Goldwater wanted to use the atomic bomb. Would we be better off if that had been done?

But now, people forget that at the time of the war with Mexico, Mexico was not a small nation. Not by comparison. The Mexican Army was about 4 times as large as the United States Army. Winfield Scott walked right into the middle of Mexico, and if he had lost a single battle he would have been destroyed. He did not lose a single one. The Duke of Wellington, not known for his modesty, called Scott the greatest living general. Among Scott's junior officers were Lee, Jackson, Grant, Longstreet, and Beauregard. If you want to brag about military achievements, that was one.

But are we really sure we want to brag all that much about military achievements. The kind of country that is best at winning wars is not the necessarily the best one to live in. A friend of mine in grad school wrote a doctoral dissertation comparing the southern slaveholder to the Prussian Junker. Very strong parallels there. Those guys make fine soldiers. Lots of military virtues. Maybe one should cultivate other virtues as well -- or instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:14 PM

I said, "Not to mention that we learned the art of slavery from the masters too." Teribus, if you don't catch the implications there, it's OK; I realize that some great intellects don't pick up nuances. But perhaps it would be helpful if I parsed it out for you: "We", by that I mean the American colonists who were, by and large, English, "learned", by which I mean that we were present and participated in; "the art of slavery", an unprincipled but lucrative and convenient activity; "from the masters", meaning the government to which most of us belonged; "too", meaning in addition to other things.

You are a silly, i.e. pompous, man. But that is OK. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:08 PM

Amerikky won the war against it's Natives. Sure whomped our Cherokee asses!

But, y'all enjoy yourselves now at our casinos! Yessir, all royalties GRATEFULLY accepted. Step right up! Heh,heh.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:22 AM

HuwG,

The presence of a Gurkha Battalion in the Flaklands conflict does not equate with Nepal being an ally in that fight.

If memory serves me correctly Nepal allows the armed forces of the UK, India and Brunei to recruit soldiers for services in their armed forces. The British Army used to have three Gurkha Regiments (now reduced to one); the Indian Army has one Gurkha Regiment; and a Gurkha Regiment forms the bodyguard for the Sultan of Brunei.

I enjoy reading your posts, all the best in 2004.

kendall,

I note that you ignored the two questions asked

Ebbie,

I would compare my knowledge of the history of the slave trade to yours any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 12:10 PM

Pete Boom - And you need to find a way to overcome the dire temptations of opening BS threads. :-) Think of the valuable time you have already wasted just by looking in here! I think that with a little professional help (counseling) you could probably reach the point where you never you never look into the BS section again at all.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 11:42 AM

Actually, HuwG, I thought your first post was really good - as was this most recent one. In fact, they and a couple of others in this thread give good information without ranting. Maybe I've simply lost my patience with much of the sound-byte-news / ranting-ill-informed-heads talk shows and all that goes with them, but this thread is a classic example of what passes for "news" these days. The amount of dueling non-information in this thread reminds me why I usually ignore BS threads.

Finally - Kendal, I'd have expected more in a discussion like this from someone who majored in US History than I would from an ex-squaddie. That is my "problem."

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: HuwG
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 04:12 AM

I'm not too sure whether some of the flak in this thread (e.g. PeteBoom's) is directed at me, but I will plough on with such research and wit as I have.

Incidentally, I first became interested in the subject while doing basic military training at Maindy Barracks in Cardiff. This was home to part of the Royal Regiment of Wales, formed in 1969 by the amalgamation of the South Wales Borderers and the Welch Regiment. The Welsh Regiment was formerly the 41st of Foot; and they celebrate "Detroit" as their outstanding historical triumph. (The Borderers celebrated Rorke's Drift, and other Zulu War battles).

One of my first fatigues was to assist in moving the Welsh Regiment's museum to its present home in Cardiff Castle. Their prize exhibit is the colours of the U.S. 4th Infantry, captured at Detroit. To claim that they were captured in battle is a little cheeky, as they were handed over, along with the entire army, by a former Revolutionary War hero gone senile (Brigadier-General Hull). But, the 41st deserved some reward for all their hard work.

Incidentally, it is a miracle that the colours survived the two miles between Maindy and the Castle; we ought to have checked O/Cdt C***s P****'s driving license before letting him anywhere near a Land Rover, but all's well that ends well; and I'm sure that nobody will divulge this little secret.


Anyway, enough prologue. This thread got me thinking, when did Britain last win a war unaided ? I will leave out Civil Wars and uprisings such as the '15 and '45. The Falklands War is perhaps an example. (The supply of AIM-9L air-to-air missiles does not invalidate the claim, in my humble opinion). However, the British forces in the Falklands included a Gurkha battalion, even though there were well-trained British units available to go.

Before that ? Well, most of the successful counter-insurgency wars from 1948 to 1976 were won with the help of Gurkhas (Nepalis) or Omanis. In both World Wars, the entire Commonwealth was involved, along with the U.S. and France and other allies. The Boer War also involved Commonwealth contingents. Most of the colonial wars of Victoria's reign also involved Indian, Egyptian / Sudanese, native African or other allies. The long wars against Napoleon involved any number of allies, and of coalitions of nations hostile to Napoleon. The 1812 was a draw.

You could argue that Britain won the French and Indian War, only if you count the Colonials (Americans) as British; and most home-grown British commanders treated the Colonials very ungraciously, where they didn't actually despise them. So, let's (very quickly) leave this one out. In any case, Britain had an ally on the continent of Europe, namely Frederick the Great of Prussia, although the difficulty of getting men and munitions across the Atlantic was the root cause of French defeat in America, rather than the demands of campaigning against Fred.

Prior to that, you had odd European brawls in which Britain took the opportunity to grab colonies. Again, Britain's sea power allowed these to be isolated, and other countries' land strength was immaterial. Mind you, I don't think Jenkins ever did get his ear back.

Finally, we get to some of the Anglo-Dutch wars. For some of these, Britain had Louis XIV of France as an ally; for others, it was a straight fight. Britain won the wars, but the Dutch won some brilliant battles, and much of the Honour, if you can attach such a term to a commercial squabble, which Al Capone and Bugs Moran would comprehend instantly.

The Spanish Armada was a single episode in a long war between Elizabeth's England and Spain, which also was a draw. The Hundred Years War was obviously a defeat. And so on.


In fact, if you draw up the definition of "allied" or "friendly" very carefully and comprehensively, you could argue that Britain has never won a war, unaided.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 11:35 PM

Dyer's books are a must read, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:47 PM

Women don't start wars

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:41 PM

perhaps there is only one cause of greed? testosterone? oh, I left out estrogin!

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:08 PM

Why is it MY problem?

There are two major causes of war. Greed and testosterone

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:04 PM

Teribus, you are so full of it. Subtlety is not your strong suit, I gather.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:42 PM

Errr ! Kendall, isn't the fact that you majored in US of A History your problem ????.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:17 PM

I majored in American history. Now, what is your problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:24 PM

Isn't studying history and getting a life something of a contradiction, Pete...;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:06 PM

I've read this thread. The huge majority of you lot need to find one of the following:

A decent history of the War of 1812, including the issues and causes leading up to it;

A decent history of the United States military;

A decent history of the British military;

A life.

For those of you deciding to not get a life, start with John Keegan's books. Fercryinoutloud.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:16 AM

Besides, as I recall, it was the Dutch, not the English who started the slave trade.
Furthermore, Teribus, money and greed were the driving forces in maintaining the slave trade. We Liberals are not driven by the love of money. The problem is, the few people who control most of the money run things, and they are not Liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:11 AM

Teribus, I'll match our atrocities with those of England any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:01 AM

jimmyt - 21 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

"even the Spanish and French? and the Scots?   And the slaves? I would agree thet the majority were from England, but not in toto"

I think that the French and the Scots have (100 years War and Scottish Wars of Independence) both of which established their Kingdoms free from any foreign Claimant to the their respective Thrones.

Majority of slaves were from England? from England or shipped by the English? Either is incorrect. Arabs, French, Spanish, Portuguese come a long way ahead of Britain. The only agreement Wellington got from the Congress of Vienna in 1815 was that the other European states would abolish slavery in line with Britain - he only managed to get that out of them because that certain Mr. Bonaparte escaped from Elba and those attending the Congress decided that Wellington really needed to be elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 06:22 AM

kendall 21 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

"We learned invasion and exploitation from the masters, our English relatives."

Really? and here's us non-Americans being told to believe what great documents your Constitution and Bill of Rights are. How enlightened they were and how they broke the mold of the times when our two nations seperated.

What was it exactly that "forced" the newly emergent United States to pursue it's policy of slavery until 1865 where a civil war was required to impose that state in the USA (after all the old country implemented the abolishion in 1807 and completed it by 1830 i.e. within 54 years of your declaration of independence). Having abolished slavery it then took damn near another 100 years for those you freed to "win" their civil rights (Yes the ones painstakingly scribed out in 1776)   

What was it that "forced" successive American administrations to break damn near every single treaty signed with the American Indian Nations?

The answer in both instances has got nothing to do with your former "masters" - the matter lay with the respective US Governments of the time - accept that they take responsibility for what path they chose to take.

Ebbie 21 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

Ref the above with regard to Slavery - as usual you are talking complete and utter hogwash.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 09:19 PM

And don't hold your breath waiting for it. You don't fight poverty by landing bigger weapons and oil contracts.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 09:10 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 07:27 PM

Hmmm ! Going back to a previous posting of mine has any US of A President declared war on Poverty, Illness tec since the days of FDR and LBJ ????

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 07:18 PM

Oh my God! you mean to say none of us is lily white?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:39 PM

I don't think there is cause for smugness or complacency in any country now, or in the past. England certainly has a history of bloodshed and exploitation. That tends to go right along with power.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:18 PM

Kendall - a shame you couldn't learn about slavery from 'the masters (your) English relatives - we did in the trade in 1807 and the practice (officially at least!) throughout the whole Empire (a big place) in the 1830s. We didn't need a major civil war to do it either!
From one of your English masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

even the Spanish and French? and the Scots?   And the slaves? I would agree thet the majority were from England, but not in toto

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:07 PM

Not a question of learning from the British. You were
British at that point in history. Warts and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

Not to mention that we learned the art of slavery from the masters too. And did you know that during World War II Canada too interned people of Japanese descent? Canadians- those nice folks??

The best defense is ATTACK!!!!

*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:33 PM

The War of 1812 - it's wrong to assume that the USA was fighting on its own as the greater part of the Royal Navy and nearly all the British Army was keeping an eye on a certain Mr Bonaparte and his navy and army for most of the time. The only lesson that the Royal Navy learnt was that British ships could not always take on bigger ships and win, as they had often done in the past.

The answer so far seems to be that seldom does a nation fight a war on its own - as it makes much more sense to get other nations to help out. Start by making a list of wars that are fought by single nations and work on from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

We learned invasion and exploitation from the masters, our English relatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 01:41 PM

Don't forget the big one - the conquest, occupation and settlement of the territory that became the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 01:31 AM

No, Ebbie, it's not bad. It's multilateralism.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 12:56 PM

We don't believe in starting fights.
Not all Americans are war mongers, and most of us didn't vote for "Bush lite" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: The Walrus
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 06:05 AM

Kent Davis wrote
"... The US hasn't won many wars ON HER OWN for the simple reason that she hasn't BEEN in many wars on her own..."

Ebbie wrote
"And that's bad? "

No that's not a bad thing, but what is bloody annoying is the way *some* Americans immediately assume, nay believe, that, no matter what happened, it was The Americans -and no-one else- who won the conflict (never the alliance/ coalition/ what have you).

Merry Christmas

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 04:02 AM

And that's bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 01:59 AM

But WHY has the US, on the winning side in so many wars, won so few on her own? In 1898, the Cubans were in revolt against Spain before the US entered. In 1917, WWI had been long under way before the US intervened. In 1941, WWII had been long under way. The two Koreas were already fighting when the UN, including the US, went in. The two Vietnams had been fighting, and the French had intervened, before the US intervened. Iraq attacked Kuwait first, then the Allies intervened. In Afghanistan, the war against the Taliban had been going on for years before the events of September 11 persuaded the US to intervene. In the present war, the US is supported by a coalition, especially by the UK. The US hasn't won many wars ON HER OWN for the simple reason that she hasn't BEEN in many wars on her own.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: The Walrus
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 04:46 PM

Re:- War of 1812 & Impressment of American seamen.

The problem with the pressing of American seamen came from the American attitude that anyone on American soil (or an American deck) could declare themselves 'American', making American ships a haven for RN deserters and those British sailors seeking to avoid impressment (a risk run by all British merchant seamen except those on Indiamen) - as there was no easy way to tell to tell many Americans from British (and as the British government didn't recognise any change in citizenship) many unscrupulous captains saw American ships as 'fair game'.
As for the outcome of the war, the invasions of Canada failed (as did the counter-invasions of the USA), the treaty left the situation as Status Quo Ante and, as by this time the need for a large 'Fleet in Being' or blockade had been removed, the situation was totally disarmed; Thus, I would say that the War of 1812 was a draw at best, except for the dead and disposessed, who, as with every other war, lost.

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:42 PM

Some one ought to send in a detachment to take out Dave the Gnome, again, not for starting the thread, but for trying to smooth things over in such a lame way.

Just try it, M Ted, just try it...;-)

I have never smoothed anything over in my life - as can be seen by the state of my shirts. Besides, I have just completed a course in Kung Shui (The are of arranging furniture so enemies fall over it) so any attempt at such a sortee will be ill fated.

Mind you, if you are offering to take me out to the pub I am sure things could be arranged.

LOL

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:40 PM

Nobody never wants to talk about Granada. Come on, be proud. Kicked their butts. -guest

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 11:02 AM

Yeah, Dave, you're right. Sorry I got a bit stirred up.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 10:47 AM

Amos, even if one calls Korea a victory (I don't), it still doesn't qualify under the terms of the thread.

First, officially it was not the US but the UN fighting against the North Koreans.

If you (probably rightly) discount that, I remind you that the US was not alone. There were troops of other countries there, fighting along with us. Sure, our troops were the majority, but not alone, as posited by the first post above.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 02:04 AM

By winning the Battle of New Orleans, the US held onto it's access to the Missisippi, which meant access to the Louisiana Purchase--

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 10:53 PM

Back to the 1812. As a GUEST posted, it is (and was at the time) a common belief that the maritime concerns of the Tidewater communities were only a pretext for the acquisitive pioneers to grab more Indian and Canadian land.

One of their spokesmen was Congressman John Randolph, of Roanoke in Virginia. He thundered in Congress, "Agrarian cupidity, not maritime right, urges this war. We have heard but one word, like the whipoorwill; but one eternal monotonous tone: Canada ! Canada ! Canada !"

Now you can argue that Randolph was a brave and conscientous man, who stood up honestly against what he perceived as a dishonourable course for his country to take. Or you can argue that he was a traitor, responsible for the US embarking on a war after months of debate, almost completely unprepared to wage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 08:18 PM

Ahhhh, the gas station attendants?....

No?....

The arms manufacturers...

No...

The attendants...

No, the gun guys...

No...

Is this a trick question, Kendall?

Next time just make it muliple guess and mark me down fir "C', will yeah....

I've got a headache...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:57 PM

Doug, who is the big beneficiary in war? the companies that make bullets and bombs, or the local gas station attendants?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:54 PM

No, things don't change much, do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:47 PM

Dave the gnome:

You asked about the Mexican War so...

... President Polk sent Us troop into Mexican territory and, as occupiers (invaders) they we resisted by the Mexicans. Then Polk goes to Congress with his indignation and says...

... "Hey, we've been attacked by Mexicans!" so...

... Congress authorized the war and a greatly overpowered Mexico was dispatched and,,,

... the US got Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and parts of California in the "settlement"...

Now, that's the way it was...

More like an armed robbery than a war...

But, hey, the First Nation folks know all about that stuff.

Bobert