BS: Political Promise(s)

Subject: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 04:50 PM

I have noticed that many people air their respective views to do with politicians. It tends to pit us one against the other. So, to start the New Year with a thread that could allow us ALL to come together regardless of our political view, let me pose the following question:

How many politicians have actually kept promises they made during the election campaign?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 04:54 PM

brucie:


Don't hold your breath waiting for the response!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:06 PM

Errrr ! Do you mean :-

1/. All Promises ?

2/. Some Promises ?

3/. Those Promises that you can't avoid keeping ?

4/. Those non-promises the press and public thouht were promises ?

Personally I have a regard for Huey Long's attitude - "Tell them I lied".

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:57 PM

Well, the current guy in the White House cannot be faulted for breaking all of his promises. He has certainly "changed the tone in Washington"....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 05:59 PM

Gareth: So far, I'd settle for one!

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:06 PM

In fairness, we have to accept that many sincere promises are not kept because the politician discovers that matters turned out to be far more complex than s/he had thought and simplistic promises couldn't be met.

As they say, if you have *both* sides mad at you, you probably got it about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 06:23 PM

I'm not a Clinton supporter, nor am I a Democrat (or Republican), but believe it or not, Clinton did manage to keep some of his promises. He "ended welfare as we know it", and he whittled down the budget deficit. Both of those accomplishments pissed off his Republican opponents mightily though, because those were the issues they had been campaigning on for years.

Interestingly, now that the Republicans no longer have "balancing the budget", and "ending welfare as we know it" on which to base their campaigns, they are relying on the "War on Terror". Bush did promise that the war on terror would last a long time (into the forseeable future). I bet that's one promise he can keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: DougR
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:24 PM

Yep, Carol C, I think you are right. Actually Bush has kept several campaign promises including cutting income taxes, raising the limit on the Estate (Death Tax), prescription drugs for Seniors, overhaul of Medicare (as part of that package), and I think there are probably others.

One must keep in mind, however, that a president can rarely fulfill promises alone (though Executive prviledge is available but usually sparingly used). The president must have the concurrance of the Congress to pass laws.

I think Clinton probably kept some promises too. Probably most presidents have kept their promises subject to what Ebbie said, and the cooperation of the congress.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:29 PM

MacArthur said "I shall return"....does that count?

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Cllr
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:54 PM

I've kept all my promises during my election campaign and frankly if you want to start a thread where we come together it shouldn't alienate those mudcatters that are polititions. Cllr PS I better get off my high horse now other wise I might fall Aaaaaaaaaaaarghhh *thud*

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 06:42 AM

In what way does the thread or brucie's opening post alienate you, Cllr? Could it be that you're stretching a point to consider yourself a politician in the first place? There are thousands of elected representatives in UK local government. They get to play with about 12 per cent of the national economy between them (with any scope for manoevre heavily constrained by directives from central government), and most of them have "proper jobs," in addition to their part-time work in town and county halls. For those deemed to be "backbenchers" under recently introduced "reforms," the responsibilities are minimal.

But let's go with your definition, Cllr, and accept that you're a politician. Don't be alienated, just respond to the challenge. For instance, you could say what your promises were --- yawn --- and on what basis you claim to have kept them all..

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:20 AM

our pollies say lots of of good stuff -

Once upon a recent time a Prime Minister said "No child shall live in poverty by (date)" - oops, there are still lots in very poor circumstances, maybe even more than there were when he said it, long after the date passed. I think a British pollie copied those words recently?

The current incumbent talked about honesty in Government. Yet every time one of his ministers or members gets caught with their snout in the trough or telling porkies - nuffin' happens. There are always good excuses why they don't follow the Westminister tradition & resign. (In case you don't know, the current incumbrance is not a tall man & is small minded, which is why he is called the Prime Miniscule by workers in his department !)

He also coined the saying "core promises" - these are the ones that absolutely WON'T be broken. The others, well, they weren't core or at least that's what he told us when they were broken! Political cartoonists has a field day with that showing little kids repeating the PM's words. Not a good example for the citizens of tomorrow.

Tho is any politician a good example for the citizens of tomorrow? Now if we all had a few statesmen/women we might have a different world.

'nuff said

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 08:59 AM

I thinkj the one thing we can all agree on about politicians, is that they are all confirmed liars,and the biggest lie that they perpetuate,is that this Capitalist"parliamentary democracy" can provide a better world,or even maintain basic standards for our people ,in the long term...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 09:45 AM

It was election time, again. So, a politician decided to go out to the local reservation to gather support from the Native Americans. They were all assembled in the Council Hall to hear the speech.

The politician had worked up to his finale, and the crowd was getting more and more excited. "I promise better education opportunities for Native Americans!"

The crowd went wild, shouting "Hoya! Hoya!"

The politician was a bit puzzled by the native word, but was encouraged by their enthusiasm. "I promise gambling reforms to allow a Casino on the Reservation!"

"Hoya! Hoya!" cried the crowd, stomping their feet.

"I promise more social reforms and job opportunities for Native Americans!"

The crowd reached a frenzied pitch shouting "Hoya! Hoya! Hoya!"

After the speech, the politician was touring the Reservation, and saw a tremendous herd of cattle. Since he was raised on a ranch, and knew a bit about cattle, he asked the Chief if he could get closer to take a look at the cattle.

"Sure," the Chief said, "but be careful not to step in the hoya."

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 10:13 AM

Yo Doug,

Well, it's a given that any Repub who gets into office by any means necessary is going to cut taxes. That's all you folks can think of to solve problems. Then your PR folks get people parroting their favorite little nugget "Well, ya can't slove problems with just money" which means, after you strip it down, means "spend and let yer danged kids pick up the bills."

Lets take California fir example. A lot of the problems in California are related to Bush's tax cuts which mean less revenues to the states at a time when the states are expected to provide more services, especially in the area of Homeland Security, which the feds aren't paying their fair share. But back to California. The new governor is going to try to balance the budget by making deep cuts in programs for the poor and in mental health and in eductation. Now, given that the United States is the wealthiest of the developed countries while also having the highest rate of poverty, this seems to be a human rights issue. 1/3 of children in the US living in a single head of household family live in poverty. 1/10 th of all children in the US live in such poverty that they suffer from malnutrition and/or poor health.

So your guys think that by cutting off breakfast programs for malnourihed kids is the way to fix fiscal problems. Or cutting off day programs for mentally ill people who either do not work or cannot afford to purchase the services of these programs. And if you and your friends would take time to visit a few inner city schools, I'd be real curious to know what exactly more you could cut out of their budgets that haven't allready been cut...

Now, Doug, I know you to be a honorable man but sometimes I don't think you realize that fixing fiscal shortcomings by punishing the poor is what you Republican buddies are all about. Yeah, you can set these realities aside by just hiding behind the ol' "bleeding heart" PR crap but if you'll look beyond those cozy little PR defense mechanisms you'll see that lots of people suffer when the rich get their way in this country...

Lots!.......

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: DougR
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 06:26 PM

Bobert: Ho hum. Same old same old socialist line. Yawn. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 06:47 PM

Hang in there, Bobert. You're wearin' him down. DougR will vote Democrat in the next election. Mark my words. (He may never admit to having done that, but Mudcatters will know.)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:08 PM

Providing a decent standard of living is not socialism. It's humanism...

How come every other industrialized nation, bar none, has a lesser percentage of people living in poverty, Doug. Socialism???

Hey, they aren't socialist nations. Just caring nations....

Now go find Cindy, that purdy wife o' yours, and have her read this thread an' maybe she can get you to see that you are indeed being a knothead here...

Come on, pal... Move beyond that "commie" ot "socialist" crap and discuss issues....

Now come on over here and get a big hug, Big Guy...

Sniff, I hate beatin' up on you but you are such a knothead...

But I love ya', dangit...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:23 PM

Nope, Ake, that's bit too strong. The main problem with politics is the same problem as with the world at large: short-termism. Nobody tries to encourage electorates into thinking long-term, and no politician can hope to meet any electorate's aspirations in the short term. Euqally no politician gives a damn about the long term, because he/she is not going to be around for that.

It's the same with the sotck exchanges and most things capitalist, and to a large extent it's the same with command economies and totalitarian regimes.

One world statesman who hung in for the lang haul was Castro, and maybe it's no coincidence that his prioritising led to some of the best education and health services in the world, in the face of punitive sanctions by the US, specifically intended to reduce Cuba's economy to ruins.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:24 PM

Sorry about the typos. Must remember the preview button.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:29 PM

Or Fionn - Sober up.

I note from a previous post you claim to be a "cllr" yerself - Perhaps we could here what promises you have kept ?

G

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Cllr
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 07:54 AM

I would have thought that from what I had written (especially the last comment) people would have realised that the post in itself while trying to make a small point was not to be taken too seriously.
but thats ok because I don't take seriously some of the other posts.
Gavin has the right of it by pointing out that promises have to be defined in this context. (individual or corporate etc)
All councillors have a role to play either in poicy development or in a scrutiny capacity. My individual promise if elected was to do my best and give my full commitment to the role . Cllr. PS I do work full time as a councillor but as I am the cabinet member I have the sole political responsibility for forty eight point two million pounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 12:01 PM

Margaret Thatcher (in answer to a question) expressed the view that Britain would not see a female Prime Minister in her lifetime. But that was an opinion, not a promise

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peg
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 03:56 PM

Clinton also promised to overturn the "gag rule" (wherein federally-funded clinics are not allowed to discuss abortion as an option to unwanted pregnancy) as quickly as possible if he was elected, and did so in the first week of his presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 04:14 PM

aye Fionn...Maybe you were a bit pissed,it being New Year ,but you still made more sense than all the rest .
Personally I dont see Casto as a "politician".   Its the mans charissma which has held his country together ,in the face of tremendous obstacles,rather than any political theory.
Iv never been to Cuba, but afew of my friends have ,and they tell me hes loved like a father by his people ,although they are very poor.
Its a wonderful testament to the man,that he can keep the affection of his people in such circumstanses....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 04:19 PM

Sorry about spelling....Its New year in Scotland too!!

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 04:59 PM

What most people don't know, and DougR will never admit, is that old Dougie is a closet Socialist (are you reading this Cindy?). Check it out:

"When we pledge allegiance to the flag"

Who wrote that Pledge?

What? You say The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 11:50 PM

I don't know if Howard Dean will be able to keep all his promises. Congress may get in the way. But I was out getting soaking wet passing out Dean literature today, because I expect he will bust a gut trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 08:55 AM

Congratulation LadyJean, you at least now the downside of a political canpaign !!!

Would that some others have the same experience.

Gareth **BG**

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 09:24 AM

Excellent points, Fionn.

Most politicans are poll driven and just tailor their campaigns to the whims of the electorate. And that's the main reason that I like, and like LadyJean, will be working for Howard Dean this year. He stepped out and went against the polls. That's what *leaders* do. And they try not to let the media frame their campaigns around *squabbles* and *personal* stuff but hammer, hammer and hammer in issues. Look at the way the media is handling Dean's campaign right now. It's trying it's darndest to frame it around the supposed riff between Dean and Clark when if you were to hear Howard dean talk for one hour all you'd hear were his ideas about how to *lead* the country to a more civilized place...

Some would argue that George Bush is *leading* bu8t I see it more like *ordering* under the vile of being branded un-patriotic. This is not leadership and under Bush you cant's say that he hasn't kept his promise to change the tone in Washington! Think Joe McCarthy here...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 11:06 AM

I've just had a look around Kucinich's website, and I've decided. I'm voting for Kucinich. I'll even write-in his name in the presidential election if he doesn't get the Democratic nomination. He's the only candidate (Democratic or otherwise) who hasn't been lying to us about the Middle East in one way or another.

He's the only honest Democrat in the field, so therefore (in my opinion), he's the only one likely to take his promises seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 01:51 PM

I misspoke in my last post. I couldn't find any mention at all of some of the most important issues re: the Middle East in the websites of Carol Mosely Braun and Al Sharpton, so they won't be getting my vote for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 03:40 PM

"...under the vile of being branded un-patriotic..." Fortuitous typo, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 04:27 PM

CarolC:

I love Dennis... He is as much a Green Party cadidate as there is and, oh, if he could become president then this world would get turned around but, no matter what the press has been saying about Dean not being electable, he's more electable than Dennis and the main thing is getting Bush the heck out.... Then turn around, get behind Dennis for '08!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Jan 04 - 06:35 PM

Congratulations Bobert - You have reached "realpolitic".

For myself, this side of the pond, I still mourne the loss of Kinnock, Blair is a little left wing for my tastes, but hell he's the best Prime Minister we got.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:03 AM

I dont' know, Bobert. I'm not convinced that if he won, Dean wouldn't take us to war with Iran. From what I've seen, Dean's a lot more of a hawk than he's been letting on in his campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:36 AM

Hmmmmmm, CarolC. I'm not too sure where you are getting your information but it apparently isn't from his website or his campaign office or from is position statements. Right now there is a vast PR campaign being led by Dems, Repubs and the Press to discredit Dr. Dean. You notice that the press really isn't reporting too much about his "positions" but focusin' on trying to trip him up with details, much they way Teribus likes to divert attention away from the big picture here at Mudcat. Dean is the most scutinized person in the world right now. I'd like to see just half that scutiniztion applied to Bush. Heck, one third would even be nice... Outsider candidates scare the heck out of the establishmnet (Dems, Repubs, Press).

Try going to his website and read what he has said and I think you'll be less concerned about a scenereo where he would give any thought to furthering a foriegn policy based on pre=emtion.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 10:50 AM

When a dog urinates on a fire hydrant, it is not committing an act of vandalism. It is simply being a dog.

When politicians lie . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:14 AM

Dean would take us to war with Iran - Where the hell did that one come from???

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 12:02 PM

It came from a speech he gave to AIPAC. I've posted this before.

Bobert, I don't see the same slant you do with respect to the media and Dr. Dean. It looks to me like they are promoting him pretty heavily. Personally, I think it's the media who are responsible for Dean's success so far and for the fact we barely hear anything about people like Kucinich.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 12:51 PM

As far as the next election is concerned, I would urge you all to remember ABB -- Anyone But Bush. Rather than worrying about which Democratic candidate is best (I like Clark), let's worry about ABB.

MoveOn.org had a contest in which people could submit video ads they had made for the next election. The winners were announced today, and can be seen at the site below. They require Apple QuickTime, and I strongly recommend that you start with the bottom ad and work up, as the best ones are at the top. Some of them are EXCELLENT.

BestBushAds

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 05:39 PM

CarolC,

You apparently haven't been reading the Washington Post. Today's edition is an exception but it's been one story after another about riffs between Dean and Clark Dean ans ________, and locked away records, etc.

What Dean has done that Dennis hasn't is good old fashioned organizin' and using the interent to it's fullest...

Now, I don't want to seem like a Dean apologist becuase he certainly isn't my first choice of the "Anyone But Bush" field but he's the one I think has the best chance to succeed. But I would like to see him do what Bush did in 2000 and announce to the voters what his cabinet might look like. I would love Clark, if he cannot be pursuaded into the VP slot, to be slated as Secretary of Defense, and Ms. Braum HEW, and I'd, if I were Dean, send out a triel baloon to Colin Powell to stick at State but not as Porch Negro but a real Secretary of State...

But, it don't matter, I'll work fir any Dem this time around. Even Joe Lieberman who I find just a cut above Bush...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:58 PM

Err ! a bit late now Cllr but Don't call me Gavin (copyright "Airplane (of what ever number))

Incidently I see Mudcats biggest Mouth, Aka Fionn, has run away rather than expose his own record to public or (Mudcat) scrutiny.

So I'll ask the questions again :-

1/. Why does Fionn consider the word "Informer" an insult ?

2/. Can he confirm his role in the Newark Labour Party affair ?

3/. What Parlimentary seats did he apply for. ?
and

4/. Despit his claim to be a "Crusading Journalist" what has he actually had published ?

Gareth

PS - I think that this is a proper thread to ask these questions in.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 01:41 PM

Five thousand years ago, Moses said "Hitch up your camel, pick up your shovel, mount your ass and I will lead you to the promised land.

Five thousand years later, Franklin Roosevelt said "Light up a camel, lay down your shovel, sit on your ass. This is the promised land!"

If you elect a Democrat he will lay off your camel, tax your shovel, kick your ass and tell you there is no promised land."

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 02:32 PM

It's true Bobert. I try to avoid the Washington Post like the plague these days. As far as I can see, it's become a newspaper by, of, and for Neo-Cons.

I've mostly been getting my news from NPR, CBC world news, BBC world news, and a smattering of other sources. I stand by what I said with regard to a bias in favor of Dean on the part NPR. I'm not too crazy about NPR these days either.

I'll not be participating in any sort of ABB type of thinking or voting practices. I think that way is not necessarily as productive as people might think. So I'll just be voting my conscience. I figure, no matter who wins (with the exception of Kucinich), by virtue of the fact that I am a citizen of this country, I'll have the blood of innocent people on my hands, figuratively speaking. I'll feel better about myself if I vote for the person who I think has the most moral and political integrity, rather than someone who I know will behave in a manner that is inconsistant with human rights, just because he's not Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: robinia
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 12:02 AM

Well, I decided that Clark was the electable and ethical choice over two months ago. He's a complex, even contradictory man who doesn't fit into easy sound bytes -- preceived as "moderate" while in fact sharing more positions with Kucinich than with Dean -- and I think he's the one candidate who CAN unite this country.   For insight into his candidacy from an initial disbeliever click here or, for a more passionate defense, here (then scroll down to Hanukkah Message). I didn't know whether to be heartened or disheartened recently at the conclusion of Georgie Anne Geyer's column WESLEY CLARK OFFERS ANTIDOTE TO ADMINISTRATION'S AMORALITY (click

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: robinia
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 12:12 AM

don't know why I got lopped off, but to continue: (click here); "Wesley Clark," Geyer writes, "is probably too intellectual, too individualistic and too clear about issues to be elected president. But don't say there's not right in front of us a moral corrective to the amoral policies we are embarked upon. "   Right on!   And in New Hampshire it seems that voters are listening . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 06:02 AM

Gareth: for once I agree with one of your political comments;
"Blair is a little ............., but hell he's the best Prime Minister we got."

Yep, he is a little ....
and he's the only Prime Minister we've got!

CHEERS

Nigel
(Isn't selective quoting great?)

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 07:45 AM

There are several things about Clark that I'm having problems with. One of them is his use of depleted uranium and cluster bombs in the Balkans.

Subject: RE: BS: Political Promise(s)
From: robinia
Date: 07 Jan 04 - 11:57 AM

What would YOU have done in his shoes, Carol?   He'd seen (in Ruwanda, where he'd supported Madelaine Albright's desire for military intervention) what inaction in the face of genocide meant -- and was determined never to let it happen again -- but though he pushed for the option of ground troops (which would have saved many more civilian lives) and lower flying Apache helecopters (ditto), he could only get the Pentagon to agree to the kind of bombing that IS very destructive of human life. So now he's getting brickbats from both sides: the generals who never wanted a "humanitarian war" and the humanitarians who are aghast at the only war he was permitted even to threaten...
So, I repeat, what would you have DONE?   ("Nothing" is what we "did" in Ruwanda)