concertina question

Subject: concertina question
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:13 PM

As a kid, I was forced to learn the accordian. Eventually, I worked my way up to a 120 bass although I was never a great player (my heart wasn't in it and it was too heavy.) Since my teen years, I have been a "closet player". It was just too embarrassing!

Now that I'm all grown up, I'm wondering about a concertina.

Can an old dog learn new tricks? Where do I start? Tell me more.

What do I look for? How much should I pay?

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Anglo
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:20 PM

How much do you have?

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:22 PM

It depends on my chance of making the change successfully.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: jody
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:05 AM

The new anglos made by the Button Box sound and feel very quick and nice and are a good value. Check the price on their website. The question is though, what kind of music do you want to play? There are several kinds of concertina and they each have their up and down sides. I play contra dance music and love the Anglo for it's bouncy rhythmic brightness. Trad Irish players only play Anglo. If you want to play chamber music though, you would really need an English concertina. Check out concertina.net for more info.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Kaleea
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:18 AM

My pals who play concertina also use the Anglo style concertina. I do know several people who picked it up in their adulthood! If you are into Folk Music such as Traditional American, Irish/Celtic & such you will want one which plays in the keys of D & G. They are not easy to find. Then there are some which are fully chromatic in that when you press a button it is one note when you squeeze in & a different one when you draw out. If you are really tied to that keyboard, you will have to spend some time relearning your scales, as they are totally different. Do some looking around at various websites for music shops offering "traditional instruments" (maybe even Ebay) for types, prices, etc. Try to find somebody in your area who plays concertina--ask everyone you know, & at the local music shops. Somebody is bound to know someone. Try out their concertina if possible. Get to a major city if need be & find one to mess with. There is not alot in the way of a method book for concertina, but since you are familiar with music, you probably have a well developed ear. Every Concertina player I have ever known plays by ear.    Good luck!

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: moocowpoo
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:32 AM

The Concertina would certainly be much easier to play than the closet(difficult to transport to sessions).
I once went shopping for a concertina, I was looking for an Anglo but they were out of my price range at the time, I settled for an english. I then(of course it was AFTER I bought it)heard a lot negative comments about english concertina, from Irish players.
I ended up selling it(I wasn't playing it much anyway, better that someone does).   Last year I met a guy who played the same type and he made it sound just like an anglo, it's just a matter of mimicking the directions that an Anglo takes to squeeze through a tune.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:35 AM

Thanks

Now I know I want an Anglo in the key of D or G (probably D). I never thought of myself as tied to the keyboard but you are probably right in as much that is definitely what I know best. However, if I find the right concertina, I will gladly practice up on the buttons.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 01:16 AM

G'day dianavan,

Nobody seems to have mentioned Duet Concertinas. These can really play all the aspects that you expect of an accordion ... but (if you're up to it) - better. They (there are actually a half dozen systems ...!) all are chromatic - reasonably logical (in their own terms, anyway!) - have full melody and accompaniment sides, which can be treated as chords resources or as counter-melody / harmony.

The most common systems are the Salvation Army's favourite the Crane (aka 'Triumph' ... the SA brandname) and the Maccann (or it original form the Wheatstone Duet). All good duets are a bit bigger - coming into their own at (~) 56-key size ... and available up to 80-key monsters. The Maccann is still the "sleeper" of the top concertina range ... selling for less than smaller Anglo-chromatics that have been pushed stratospherically high in price by mad Irish ... (and capable of vastly more music ... as longer as you aren't hung up on 15-to-the-dozen "diddley music - with no appreciable harmony").

There is a comprehensive site on Maccanns (with incredible coverage of all other systems, layouts, turors &c at: Maccann Duet Site . Have a quick look ... then see what you can get a reasonable Maccann for (OK ... I did sell mine in the 1970s ... after hearing what fantastic music the great old players could make - and becoming discouraged at the thought of ever reaching those heights - but now I regret it (I push-pull Anglos and button accordions, these days, to follow Australian 'folk tradition') ... but duets are the aristocrats of the concertina world, not the brash English, which needs to form bands to come anywhere near!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Little Robyn
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 01:56 AM

As a general rule, if you can read music and have had accordian lessons, you're probably better off with an English but for people with little musical background (other than a mouth organ) then an Anglo is for you. Melodeons work the same way.
I just can't get my head around a 'push-pull' Anglo but the English (or Duet if you can get one) is much more logical for me.
Robyn

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Crane Driver
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:18 AM

I'd agree with Bob - a duet would probably be more familiar to you as an accordianist than anglo or english. I've never played accordian, but I have owned and played anglo, english, McCann and Crane duets in my time (look at my name and guess what I settled on!). My Crane is only 48 key, but I use it for song accompanyment and dance music (I have played for Morris dancers but am now in a ceilidh band). The hard part is finding one - nobody makes them for stock nowadays, so it's usually a matter of waiting for someone to die .... but it's worth it.

Andrew

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Ralphie
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:33 AM

Hi Andrew, Maybe your last remark was a little indelicate, but I know where you're coming from!!
And Bob B, G'Day. Fair brings a tear to me eye when a "Prodigal" returns!
And Dianavan..Good Luck, let us know what you decide on
Regards Ralphie (McCann Duet)

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: GUEST,Maccann player
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:48 AM

Yes you can start late - I started at 49. I would definitely recommend a duet if you already play piano accordion - it will feel quite natural (once the buttons stop moving about !).

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: GUEST,Ghirotondo at work
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 09:09 AM

Hi, Dianavan.
I suggest you to take a look also to THIS thread, it was really useful. Especially where Stevethesqueeze tells me that, in order to play Irish music, you need a C/G anglo concertina...
Due to momentary problems I am still waiting to buy my Anglo, but I will join the squeezers' rank as soon as possible!

Bye
o. .o
=O=    Ghirotondo

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Crane Driver
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:23 PM

You don't NEED a C/G anglo to play Irish music - you just need one to look like all the other Irish concertina players. I play Irish jigs and reels on the Crane - works for me.

Andrew

PS - sorry, Ralphie, it was badly phrased - it's never a good thing when someone dies, even if it does release a concertina. The worst thing is when an instrument gets stuck in a collection or hung on a wall and never played - when I go, I hope the Crane will move on to someone who will play it.

Andrew

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:11 PM

Thanks to all of you for such wonderful advice.

With so much direction, I'm sure to find something. I'll just have to go try some to get the feel of it.

The hunt is on.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 07:56 PM

dianavan,
being "forced" to play any instrument gives one negative feelings.

It is a pity that you now seem to dislike the Piano Accordion. Are you sure you are not afraid to play it in public partly because of those evil arrogant IGNORANT W... no, I won't use that naughty word... who make negative comments about Piano Accordions? You should note that not only can they NOT play THAT instrument, they often can't play ANY OTHER instrument, certainly not well enough to expose themselves to public viewing, and they also never sing solo... And while I would like myself to be a "3 chord guitar player" - such type of instrumentalists are surely the least capable of judging the musicality of any other instrument, having barely explored the immense musical capabilities of their own instrument of choice.

You don't have to play a 120 bass to make good music - those little learner instruments make wonderful music (admittedly in a restricted range of keys) and much lighter. Remember that Anglos ARE NOT FULLY CHROMATIC - in spite of what many people rabbit on about: consider what chords you can get on any concertina, and with almost all types, there are certain "preferred keys" that are easily played in, and other keys that take much hard work to achieve. My McCann has certain preferred keys. The Piano Accordion was designed to be playable in any Major or Minor key, especially playable for certain popular Music Styles of the day in which it was designed and became for a while, the most popular instrument ever. Of course there are certain Music Styles for which the instrument design and layout are less "natural", but over the last 40 years I have heard Piano Accordions played in some of the most amazing Styles.

As a past player of the Piano Accordion, you may very well have gone thru the normal old method of "learning music" - which seemed mostly designed to drive the love of playing music on your instrument from your heart! You most likely spent most of your practice time grinding away at learning a very limited range of techniques designed to play a very limited selection of Musical Styles. You should perhaps look at this thread Technique: Piano Accordion for The Recycled Muso to gain appreciation of some techniques that you may not have been "forced" to acquire... :-) You most likely didn't do much on "Bellows Shake" techniques (the real heart of the instruments capabilities) for example. There is also a mention of a set of recordings of the instrument played in many different styles from around the world. The Piano Accordion can imitate many other types of "squeezeboxes", and can be played in more styles of music than most types of Concertinas. It is played on every continent on Earth, also being placed in some very weird tunings, even quarter tone setups! It is even being built in a design which allows pitch bending.

If the various styles of Concertinas are the "Queen" of Musical Instruments, then the Piano Accordion is the "King". No one instrument is really better than any other, but some instruments are difficult to play in some styles of music, suiting some music styles easier. The Piano Accordion is an instrument of great subtlety, but most people (many players included unfortunately!) treat it as if it has the subtlety of a sledge hammer. You hear complaints about it being a "loud" instrument - remember that it was designed in the days before electronic amplification, and that the guitar was usually considered a "quiet" instrument before amplification. To fill an acoustic space in those days, singers also had to use Technique, not just whisper into something right in front of their face. Just because the instrument is capable of volume, doesn't mean that good players can only play loudly!

Part of the problem is that some people used to take up the instrument, think it was easy to play because of the keyboard, and without any real assistance "make music" using a very limited range of techniques on instruments that were in need of a good service. That doesn't help make the instrument loved of course... :-)

My violinist father said "any fool can play any instrument fast and loud, but it takes talent, training, practice and experience to be able to play slow and soft well". While I do like traditional fiddle music, just how many of them can do what every Classical Music Violin student has to be capable of - drawing the bow extremely slowly from end to end and producing an even pure, non-wobbling note? Their style of music just doesn't call for that technique, so how many of them would practice such a technique? The whole point of practising such a type of technique is similar to why Tai-Chi Martial Artists practice at such slow speed. I've done some Tai Chi - (Chen style for those who know what I'm talking about).

Don't give up on a good instrument, just because you haven't been inspired by having contact with exceptional practitioners of the instrument. By all means take up as many other instruments as you want - I too am multi-instrumental.

Robin

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 08:23 PM

Robin: The accordian was not my instrument of choice. I wanted a pedal, steel guitar!

It was gorgeous, though, and I lugged it around for about 20 years. Pretty black thing with inlaid mother of pearl. It burned up in a house fire. You're right about the teaching style of the early 60's. Lots of Polkas and Christmas Carols but ...

when I saw Queen Ida in concert, it gave me a whole new perspective.

Now I just have to get on it.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Crane Driver
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 08:34 PM

Robin is of course quite right - the accordian can be a great instrument, but it's reputation has suffered from too many bad players. That's no reason not to play it - it's just a reason to try to play it well. And remember - the only way to play well is to play badly - if you're not playing at all, you're not getting better.

Part of the reason the accordian is looked down on in some circles, is that it has chord buttons, instead of building chords from separate notes. This is somehow seen as an "easy" option by those who have never played it - bad accordian players are usually bad because they can't play the bass properly, but drown out the tune in soggy chords. A good accordian player (Phil Cunningham, for example) can play the melody on the left end, using bass and counterbass buttons.

The concertina is nevertheless a lot easier to carry around!

Andrew

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 08:38 PM

G'day cranedriver/Andrew,

... so it's usually a matter of waiting for someone to die .... but it's worth it. ...

I guess it does sound like bad taste (pace Ralphie) - but that's basically what I have ben saying about Crane Duets for years! They are a very pretty system and I have several friends who play Cranes ("Triumphs" to those who don't realise that is just the brand name on all Salvation Army instruments). I think they are at their best in hymns, but they inspire great "system" loyalty ... and only come onto the market when someone dies.

I don't bother recommending them because you aren't likely to find one - but there are some very nice Maccanns still looking for a home ... and they should not be quite as dear. As well, I think there is more capability for speed in the Maccann ... even it comes from the hangover of apparent "illogicality" that the Wheatstone and Maccann Duets inherited from the English System.

I remember a wonderful performance of old Salvation Army Officers ... back in the late 70s. These were all great soloists ... and those who played Duets played Wheatstone or Maccann (externally indistinguishable) ...not the Crane that was more common with the SA Band players. Those who reached beyond the support of a band ... reached for something very like a Maccann!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 11:17 PM

Wow! After all of this - maybe its a button box I'm after.

I'll let you know what I end up with.

d

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: treewind
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 03:57 AM

I'm lucky then - recently acquired a Crane (made by Jeffries) with no bloodshed or other loss of life. (loss of money, certainly...)

I've heard that the Crane system is more logical than McCann, but more people play McCann system simply because there are more of them about and they're cheaper.

Anyway, the other night I met someone called Paul McCann who plays a Crane system duet concertina - how perverted is that? Very fine playing too - has inspired me to get mine out and start learning to play it. I don't think we've quite decided whether it's mine or Mary's - with me playing Anglo and her playing English we're at an approximately equal disadvantage, maybe biased in her favour as the Crane is a logical development of the English system, with the natural notes in the middle three rows and the sharps and flats in the outer rows.

(I-spy duet concertina hint: McCann: 6 rows, Crane: 5 rows.)

BTW, earlier someone said:
"there are some which are fully chromatic in that when you press a button it is one note when you squeeze in & a different one when you draw out"
That's not what fully chromatic means. Only anglos are different notes push and pull. The word used sometimes for the push-pull system is "diatonic" which refers to the push-pull sequence playing a scale in only one key. Fully chromatic means means all the sharps and flats as well as naturals so in theory you can play in any key. In practice a 30 key Anglo is chromatic - it has two rows in C and G (or G/D or whatever) and a third row with most all the notes missing from the other two rows, both accidentals and reversals (e.g. G on pull when it's only on push on C and G rows) Mybe not fully chromatic because there are gaps at the top and bottom of the range.

Anahata

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:22 AM

There are lots of threads here with endless discussions on what "CHROMATIC" means in regard to "Button Boxes" - the Piano Accordion IS "fully CHROMATIC" - with some help from Bob Bolton I provide a condensed "discussion", at least as seen from the viewpoint of a Piano Accordion in that thread I mentioned earlier.

You might find that useful dianavan.

Robin

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 06:49 AM

I occasionally pop in a small advert in these threads. My program HARMONY can do tablature for Anglo concertina. (I do know that a couple of people use this facility)

The Tablature facility can also be used as a chord finder. Just put in a small abc file containing the notes of the chord in sequence (like arpeggio) and the tablature will indicate one or more ways of playing the notes.

Download it here

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 02:11 PM

Just a small pitch: I have been playing English system for the past 30 years. The big advantage is that when you have some guy leading a song decide he has to go to E flat or some other key beyond the basic 6 it is easier to play with them than it is with a diatonic. It's certainly cheaper than having to carry several instroments to be able to join in the fun. If you are going to stick to the British Isles music, certainly almost all of it is right for the diatonic. Once you go further afield, some sort of chromatic is called for. Besides, even harmonicas are getting expensive, nowadays.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 04:36 PM

The Basic 6 =

F C G D + ??

Robin

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 07:56 AM

MacCann is usually spelt MacCann, although originally it was Maccann without the big C.

McCann is a common but incorrect spelling.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 10:12 AM

Don't for get A and B flat.

Subject: RE: concertina question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 05:20 PM

The Basic 6 =

Bb F C G D A

which means that smaller Piano Accordions can play most music for this ramge of keys.

Robin