Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime

Subject: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:17 AM

While searching for cakewalks to play for a fund-raising cakewalk, I cam across this delightful site:

http://www.perfessorbill.com/index2.htm

(It's fun just to go to this site and listen to the tunes.)

When I tried downloading a piece, I got a MIDI which is cluttered up with lots of dots and many tiny rests. Apparently MIDI took every change of finger pressure, every staccoto or legato too literally. The music is unusable.

Does anybody know how to deal with this problem? I've tried fooling with Resolution during the MIDI import process, but it doesn's seem to help.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:22 AM

sometimes playing with the resolution will help -

but it's pretty much a manual process of correcting if you want sheet music that looks anything like standard. Most programs will be pretty consistent how they display the notes if the player was reasonably proficient.

Sometimes you have to apply "best guess" with a heavy thumb.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:30 AM

leenia -

What you're seeing is probably typical of .mid files made by playing on a MIDI device. We've had several threads looking for ways to "play into" notation, and the consensus seems to be that most of us can't produce very good notation that way.

Some of the scoring/notation programs allow you to set threshold values during real-time input, so that the program ignores, or rounds off, note time values to clean things up a bit; but I don' know of an easy way to run an existing .mid file back through one to accomplish this.

My usual procedure is to use the "notation conversion" from the .mid as a rough guide, and then just notate directly to a notation program by ear while listening to the .mid as needed. If it's not too bad, you may be able to just "edit" the score the .mid produces in a notation program.

Usually a first pass at merging a few of the little notes and ties will clean things up enough to give you something you can "detail" into passable notation, but that depends on how much "scmaltz" the player put into the recorded performance.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:35 AM

AAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!

My usual procedure is to use the "notation conversion" from the .mid as a rough guide, and then just notate directly to a notation program by ear while listening to the .mid as needed.


That would take me roughly 14 centuries per song...



MMarioturninggreenandcravingflies

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 11:59 AM

Thank you, Mrs Briggs - who taught me to read music in the fifth grade.

Sorry MMario, but each of us has our own value, and values, and we've each got to find our own best way.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:06 PM

This is a typical problem - MIDI is designed only to replicate SOUND.

Firstly, when a score specifies a suggested note value, e.g. a quarter note, the time allowed INCLUDES the off period at the end of a note, which will naturally be a larger fraction of the total time if played staccato. Otherwise there would be no gaps between notes.
How can you tell whether this is a staccato quarter note or a dotted eighth note? Generally, MIDI will show a note as shorter than its proper score value unless you adjust for this.

Secondly, there is no way that even the BEST player can play like a metronome, and wouldn't want to, anyway. Too many MIDIs made with sequencers sound mechanical.

Thirdly, quite often, one note will start BEFORE its official start point, overlapping with previous notes.


My program HARMONY does some quantisation on import of MIDI, but is isn't really any good for complex files, because the internal structure isn't designed for polyphonic channels.

However, I COULD try writing a NEW program specifically for addressing this problem. Is there likely to be a demand?

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: Kudzuman
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:13 PM

Tabledit at www.tabledit.com does a decent job of quantizing MIDI files. Some it does really well, others you have to still make corrections. You just import the MIDI and hit quantize. Hope this helps.

Kudzuman

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

pavane -

There's been quite a lot of comment in other threads here from people who would like to be able to produce acceptable notation by playing a midi device into a scoring program. The problem of cleaning up an existing .mid is a little different thing, but would also be useful for the same purpose - just a separate "cleanup" program.

There seems to be a recognized problem. The marketing guys will be quick to tell you that doesn't necessarily mean there's a ready demand for your solution, although the potential interest might make it worth looking at the possibilites.

A "dirty .mid in - clean score out" kind of thing sounds like a good deal.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:21 PM

JOhn - that was a pained scream of ENVY !!!

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:27 PM

Currently, I need to find something to bring in a bit of cash! Registrations of HARMONY have been rather rare (in fact I have given more 'free' registrations to testers than I have had paid ones) and I would like to find something more lucrative.

I already have a number of programs which analyse MIDI files (Hands-on Midi Chords, for one, which analyses and reports on the chords being played in a file), so there is something to build on.

Any suggestions for the requirements (Yes, MIDI in, Score out, but that's a trifle ambitious for a first attempt!)

Example: output format? MIDI in - MusicXML out would probably be best, as there are plenty of top-class scoring programs which now import that format.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:29 PM

But does anyone buy those programs?

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 12:59 PM

pavane -

There are "lots of top-class scoring programs that import MusicXML," but do many of your main group of potential customers use "top-class" programs?

I can't give you an answer on that, but I suspect that a .mid to abc, or a "front end" plugin for some <$60 program, even if people needed to get the program, might find a larger market base accessible to you.

Even a "dirty .mid to clean .mid" utility might make more sense. Nearly all the people around here do have some program that imports .mid to notation.

A "simple(?)" utility, sort of like MidiText/Text2Mid that you could drag a .mid onto and get back a "cleaner/quantized" .mid would seem to me more likely to get used by larger numbers of the people here. Since a user would likely want to play with settings, maybe a program that actually opens the file and lets you look at the result would be needed. Any such program would likely need to display the notation, but the simpler the better. If you can find a preset degree of quantization that seems to work well, the drag-and-drop converter would be great.

For the follow-on, the utility to "put a little swing" into a ".mid from score" should probably be a separate program.

I do suspect that most of your potential market is in people who don't have one of the "good" (read $$$$$) programs. Since most of those programs do accept "plugins," you might want to look at the market possibilities for something for one of them; but that's a whole different culture to deal with.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM

I will have a play and see what would be possible. Perhaps I could output the cleaned-up version to both formats in the long term.

First, I have to find a way to extend my internal structure into accepting polyphony.

Then tweak the display to show it - not easy!

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:46 AM

I can now see what needs to be done in terms of file changes, I just have to find a way to do it. (Not going to describe it here, for obvious reasons)

In order not to make too drastic a change to the file, I think I would implement a 'successive approximation' strategy, in which the midi file is processed once, applying a change of about 50% of the maximum calculated, then checked. If it still needs more work, it would be processed again, getting closer to the 'ideal'.

How does this sound as an approach?

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:46 AM

from my viewpoint it sounds good - because it isn't an "all or nothing" change - which might overcorrect in portions... -

saving at various stages could speed up the correction process.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: DrWord
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:45 AM

leeneia -- good thread. *thanx* for the ragtime site--I'm just off to my regular gig @ the old folks home, and I'll put the link on the activity centre terminal.

cheers
dennis

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:27 AM

Thanks for the input, everybody.

Kudzuman: I will explore the tabledit site.

Another question: Many sites, such as the Renaissance band and the Classical Music Archives offer MIDI's that produce perfectly sane score. How do they produce their files?

Pavane: how does Harmony differ from NoteworthyComposer? I tried to find Harmony through Google, but it didn't work. Perhaps you need to address that.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:30 AM

Leenia - the "sane" midi's are probably produced via notation software

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:46 PM

Ah.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:30 PM

Harmony is OBVIOUSLY far better than Noteworthy Composer! (Well I would say that) But there are a few threads where 'catters say nice things about it. It was originally intended to add chords (Symbols and notes) to a melody, but has grown way past that now, and is a good general purpose abc utility as well. Creates MIDI files, reads, edits, transposes, generates random tunes in folk styles, etc.

I haven't advertised it widely, as it is only now getting to the stage where I am happy with it, but you can download it (as shareware) from my web site www.greenhedges.com
The next version will let you play tunes directly into it from a MIDI keyboard.

On the original thread subject, I have recently analysed the stucture of many MIDI files, and it is absolutely obvious which ones were played on instruments, and which ones were created using sequencers. You can tell at a glance. I am very hopeful that I WILL be able to produce an 'intelligent' MIDI converter which will solve the notation problems. How long it will take, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:26 PM

Sounds good, pavane. A music program which can put chords in would be most useful. I don't like the way Noteworthy regards chords as mere text, so that when I transpose a tune, the chords don't change to match.

If you don't mind a suggestion, the name Harmony seems too general. Looking up Harmony would produce millions of hits. In fact, when I went to Google and searched for "Harmony music software," it gave me an outfit called HarmonyCentral. I believe that that is a better sort of name.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 03:27 PM

Yes, I named it several years ago. I have asked for suggestions for a new name, but nothing suitable so far!

Note that when you transpose a tune in HARMONY, the chord names are transposed as well as the notes! Told you it was better.

As well as chords, you can add perfect 5ths, 4ths, 3rds and so on.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 08:34 AM

leenia
Is there any way I can get the particular tune to see if my ideas for notation work?

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM

Just to let you know I haven't forgotten. I am making good progress with my program to fix these MIDI files.

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM

Sorry, pavane, I didn't see your request for a particular tune until now.

Go to the site mentioned in the first post and look for Blaze Away or Bunch o' Blackberries. I liked them both.

As for a name for your program, how about ChordMaster?

Subject: RE: Tech: MIDI downloads - ragtime
From: pavane
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:49 AM

I think that one might have been done already.