BS: Americans want public executions

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:14 PM

I agree with JTT. If as he says we are to accept that some helpless psychopaths are driven to kill, and are incurable, then surely they are acting in a way that they have no contol over, due to mental illness.

It is definitely advisable that they be removed from an open society, and their actions be supervised and monitored, so that they can not harm again. But I do not see why their living conditions should be significantly less comfortable than the not mentally ill.
Should we really be punishing the sick?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 07:13 PM

I taught for a year in a maximum security institution. They ain't summer camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: andi
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:22 PM

This American has seen far too much death to want to watch the tragedy of a taking of another life, no matter what the reason. I know of no one who would want to watch this.
The thought sickens me and I pray we never come to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:06 PM

Well, there are a lot of not very sophisticated thinkers out there...I guess it is a good thing that, like Wolfgang said (re Switzerland), the general public is not in a position to approve or disapprove all legislation. It would become a dictatorship of the most benighted and ignorant minds in fairly short order, I suppose, rather like the excesses that followed in the wake of the French Revolution.

A mob does not tend to make intelligent decisions over passionate issues.

Also, if 2/3 of Americans want televised executions that tells me that there are a lot of bored voyeurs out there with far too little meaning in their lives.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:40 PM

Reading through all of the postings on this Thread there was no mention of George Bush, now there was a man who had no qualms about giving the thumbs down to all of those unfortunates in Texas, wether they were guilty or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:31 PM

Interesting, ard. The Supreme Court just overturned a death sentence of a Texan becuase his attorneys did not represent the fella to well. Seems we've been hearing this for years about folks who have been executed in Texas. Some of these folks who are no longer with us were represented by suc incompetent attorneys that the attorneys fell asleep in court. But, yer right. Bush never met a convicted man worth a pardon. Innocent or guilty! This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder just how saved this born again feller is?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM

It's all a matter of opinion, Bobert. In Germany in 1939 being "saved" probably meant that you had read Mein Kampf from one end to the other and had a Nazi Party membership card. It certainly was the ticket to rapid promotion in the halls of power, anyway.

The closer a system veers toward dictatorship the more enamoured it becomes of capital punishment, because "dead men tell no tales".

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:00 PM

Aye, Bobert it was the same in Britain, years later the innocent were given a pardon, too bad they wern`t around to celebrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:39 PM

Donald Marshall
Willie Nepoose
David Milgard

Three arguments againstcapital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM

Adolph Hitler
Adolf Eichmann
Saddam Hussein

Three arguments for capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:24 PM

Well, brucie, there is no rule that perfectly fits all situations, is there? But does one have to kill an Adolf Hitler or a Saddam Hussein to stop them from doing harm? Nope. One simply has to deprive them of the power to do harm. Saddam is at the moment deprived of such power, and I see no need to kill him. What good would it do? If it satisfies various people's thirst for vengeance, is that necessarily a good thing? I don't think so, but those people will not see it my way.

The Allied powers would very much have liked to take Hitler alive, in order to try him in a spectacular fashion before the whole World, and then execute him, as they did some of his underlings and some Japanese officers. It seems odd to me that people want to take someone alive, only so that they can later kill him ceremonially after going through all kinds of legal machinations first, but I think it has something to do with the sadistic urge in people. They want to glory in the examination, humiliation, and slow destruction of their chosen antichrist, prior to actually destroying him. This is not admirable. It's sadistic.

Does the sadism of the wrongdoer justify further sadism by his captors?

The Allies were discomfited by the fact that Hermann Goering committed suicide with a hidden poison pill that he bit down on just minutes before his scheduled execution by hanging! This is really ironical. The man ended up dead in any case, but they didn't like it that he did it on his own schedule instead of theirs!

What it was really about was POWER. Who had the power there, was the question. If Hermann Goering still had the power to take his own life, then he felt that he was in charge of the decision, and his captors felt left out of the loop of decision-making.

And that is all rather silly, isn't it? Sounds like a big battle of fragile egos to me.

I tend more toward a Japanese viewpoint, as follows: If a captured enemy would prefer to honorably take his own life, then why not let him?

But that requires having some belief that the captured enemy (or anyone) is deserving of such honor...something that is a given, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of how much I disagree with what that enemy may have done.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:45 PM

Death of and by itself is not sadism. It awaits all of us. My problem with the state deciding to take life is that sometimes we make mistakes. That is why I don't support capital punishment, and if there is ever a vote on the issue directly, your vote and mine will make two. I would take no percsonal pleasure in killing a Hitler or Hussein, no more than I would take pleasure in thinning a herd or shooting a rabid dog. The benefit that people have is the choices they make. However, I don't want to get into the rights people like Hitler or Hussein. They chose to be killers. By committing murder, they have demonstrated clearly that they agree with capital punishment. Who am I to argue?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM

Sorry. There should be a "have" after the second use of Hussein. I'd also take the "c" outta personal. I'll try the preview button sometime this year. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:50 PM

Sentencing someone to live with the knowledge of what they have done is a more serious punishment than ritual killing.

What I can never unbderstand is the way you get the saqme people insisting that some crimes are so terrible that only killing the perpetrator can be adequate. And then they turn around and suggesting that imprisonment is worse than execution anyway, so state killing is the more merciful option.

I'm glad we're finished with all that kind of double-think in Europe, and have seen the last of this kind of killing in our corner of the world. Mainly because I think it eats away at a society, like some kind of poison. And like a number of poisons, it can be addictive for some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:08 AM

Check thisHarris Poll on Capital Punishment   for substantiation that 2/3 of Americans favor Capital Punishment. Strangely, in 1965, only 38% supported the death penalty-- as of Dec 2003, it is 69%, though in 1997, for some reason, 75% supported it, and 53% felt we needed even more--
Only 36% feel we need more capital punishment today--

Two things are curious and disturbing--53% feel that the death penalty is not much of a deterent--and 95% believe that innocent people are convicted of murder. White respondents believed that 11% of those convicted of murder were innocent, black respondents felt that 23% were innocent.

So we overwhelmingly support the death penalty, even though we don't believe deters murder, and we know that a substantial number of innocent people are convicted--

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:36 PM

I believe the reason that people here are supporting the death penalty is the startling number of persons who have been released from prison who have gone back and commited murder again. Because no one wants a prison in their back yard, and because the rich need their money so much more than the public in general there is extreme overcrowding in prison. Unfortunately this has resulted in the revolving door syndrome. Get rid of some inmates to lessen the pressure and give space to put in more convicts. Also because of an insistance of imprisoning people for things like DUI and minor drug offense when the one can be controlled through technology and the other is arguably not a criminal problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:35 AM

Perhaps the reason for the number of people committing second (or first!) capital crimes is that violence is becoming acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:10 AM

Naw...the reason so many more people support capital punishment now is cos there's more fear out there now than in '65. And there's more fear because of the messages people get constantly from the news and entertainment media. The media gives 'em all these hyped-up stories which drive the level of fear up. In Toronto, for example, the crime rate has been going DOWN for the last 20 years. It keeps getting lower. That's a documented statistical fact. But the public perception is that it's going UP all the time! That's because of sensational media coverage. A frightened public, like a frightened animal, gets nasty...and supports capital punishment in a sort of automatic kneejerk response, just as a symptom of their paranoia.

It's got nothing to do with statistical evidence, nothing to do with deterrence of crime, nothing to do with justice...it's a symptom of fear, period.

The more fearful people are, the more you will hear them call out for more capital punishment, more jails, more severe sentencing, and less mercy.

The media encourages a fearful public, because it increases sales of product. You can see that in the world of fashion too...as regards fear of: obesity, hairiness, bad breath, etc. It's endless. Dictators also encourage a fearful public, because that public will support a dictator when he launches extreme, violent actions against whoever it is that they're afraid of...and he makes sure to school them in who that is first!

What you got here is a chronically terrorized populace. I have to admit it's good for business if you're a private eye...

Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:25 AM

Homicide rates in Canada.
Canada 1998=558 1999=538 2000=546 2001=553 2002=582

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:06 PM

Chongo is basically correct as regards Toronto. The per capita murder rate has been declining (on average) for some time. There are some fluctuations back and forth, but there's generally been a reduction in violent crimes over the last 15 years. This is not the impression one usually gets from the press, which is in the business of selling copy.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: harpmaker
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:11 PM

The film 'Apocalypse now' was shown on uk tv last night, ch4.