BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:53 PM

Mg, wasn't me, but it was stupid of me to even bring it up. As for the other stuff, fine.

The other thread is interesting, but a little hypothetical. Whatever the subject, we're still just posting our opinions. I think I was only disputing opinions, and how they struck me, but if that amounts to personal attacks, maybe, okay, whatever. I'd be glad to hear it back, and it's really the non-responsiveness to one's p.o.v.--the evasiveness--that's rude and low. Count that up. The new thread that interests me is about writing a good post.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:52 AM

Thanks, Wolfgang. You are a gentleman and a scholar to chide me so politely.

IRONY: The grenade exploded near my leg, and now my leg is very irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:15 AM

Brucie, please, one thread is running for four days and the other for 20 days. To compare the absolute number of posts is fundamentally flawed. If you take less flawed measures like average number of posts per day or number of posts in this thread when it was as old as the other thread now is, then in both cases the 'solutions' thread wins: the interest in solutions is higher. What does that mean for the Middle East?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:13 AM

W c'mon Brucie - you got to admit this one is much more amusing - I MEAN - you've got to wait months for stuff such as:

Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:52 PM

Martin Gibson you cowardly little shit!

You fucking two bit troll. Fuck off yourself!

I just came on this thread to call you a shit. Apparantly idiots like Nerd can't tell their smell from yours.


Nerd.

You ignorant slut. You have no sense of irony.

Now you have been insulted. Study what I have said. I do this to you as a favour. Maybe now, you will take your head out of your ass and stop whining.

To be followed by, on being accused of flipping out:

Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:39 AM

Look Pal.

I didn't flip out, I was just giving you the fight you seemed to be asking for.

This thread has been a hilarious tag match - Nerd and MG are winning hands down - Particularly liked "Go brush your tooth" - priceless, absolutely priceless, thanks chaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 10:53 AM

The score is 249 posts for continued war on this thread and 48 for solutions on the other thread. Any effin' wonder they can't get their shit together in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:51 PM

yes!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:03 PM

True, poverty is no disgrace.

Living like a pig is a different story.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:26 PM

I wish I had a tooth.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM

I wish I had a tin can of a home in a trailer park. That would be a step up from where I am at present. Poverty is no disgrace, but it is a damnable inconvenience.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:32 PM

Jack the Sailor

Thanks for turning off Nascar on TV long enough to get into something meaningful. I put this thread up for the likes of you and Carol C. Glad to see you see yourself in George Will's essay.

I'm not trolling. I'm stating an opinion. an opinion I support from a learned journalist. If you are uncomfortable with it and you obviously were, that's your problem and your old lady's.

Your wife obviously has a problem with jews and Israel. Thankfully, in your tin can of a home in your trailer park in rural hillbilly country, we don't have to come in contact with you personally.

Go brush your tooth.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:39 AM

Look Pal.

I didn't flip out, I was just giving you the fight you seemed to be asking for.

I told you that Carol was not accusing you of being against human rights. You two are just not talking on the same wavelength. Is it really worthwhile to argue over a misunderstanding?

As I said before, I want this thread to suffer its well deserved demise. Please do not continue it. If you want to talk about the Palestinian problem please do not do so in support of Martin Gibson's trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:16 AM

CarolC, we've been over this before.

The flaw in your logic, as I pointed out above, is that I had already said I supported human rights by the time you said "I don't know if you support human rights." My statement, "I trust you and I both support human rights," has as a necessary premise "I support human rights." If I did not support them, I could not believe that you and I both supported them. Therefore my support for human rights was obvious to anyone who had read my statement and applied to it the most rudimentary logical interpretation.

You're too smart to have missed this. Thus, if you had really been inclined to accept my statement that I supported human rights, you would have done so. Instead you rejected it. Your subsequent desperate (and pretty much unnecessary) attempts to reframe your statement so that you can pretend to be above reproach have not, I think, fooled anybody (except perhaps the loyal JTS).

I still have no real opinion of you, by the way, because a forum like mudcat can only give a distorted impression, especially in political threads. (Well, that's not strictly true; I have some opinions. I think you can be as stubborn as all get-out, for example, but obviously I can too or we would not still be arguing this.) Mostly, I only have opinions of your opinions, not of your character, if you see what I mean.

I also think your husband flipped out there for a moment, but even that isn't a lasting opinion. I'm sure he's a fine fellow in real life!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:50 AM

The irony, Nerd, is that at the time when I first said that I couldn't say whether or not you supported human rights, I had no opinions of you of any sort except that I thought that, from what I had seen of you in other threads, you seemed like a fairly likable person. When I said I couldn't say whether or not you supported human rights, I was fully prepared to accept whatever you had to say about whether or not you support human rights.

But your behavior since then has given me an opinion of you. I don't expect that even if I did tell you which of your posts I feel were personal attacks, you would accept what I had to say. You have not accepted anything I have had to say about what I think and what I feel. So I don't see much point in getting into it with you. It would be an excercise in futility.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:09 AM

Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:08 AM

jglyaebg.zj.shfgkuaw i38757 jhwekrICBM9876*&bhbweruyebghu.

My computer bleeped twice when I typed the above. You may have only minutes left to get some differences settled, because I think I may just have launched a ridiculous number of INTER-CONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSILES.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:44 AM

Actually, I prefer being insulted in the way you have done it, JTS. While it is, you will have to admit, rather puerile, it's so much better than the cowardly, whining way (to use two of your words) employed by others who use tortuous logic to try to prove they never insulted you.

I also like the fact that after CarolC accuses me of making personal attacks, and I ask her to give me an example, she tries to take the moral high ground by saying that it would be unkind of her to point out where I have been unseemly, and that she NEVER says anything unkind, unless human rights are being violated.

Bullshit. There WERE no personal attacks. CarolC makes blanket accusations, and when she is called on them, her husband comes in roaring shit and fuck and acts like a child.

Well, you have showed US, Jack the Sailor. We certainly respect you all the more now, and think your defense of your wife is both admirable and relevant. (NOT!)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:52 PM

Martin Gibson you cowardly little shit!

You fucking two bit troll. Fuck off yourself!

I just came on this thread to call you a shit. Apparantly idiots like Nerd can't tell their smell from yours.


Nerd.

You ignorant slut. You have no sense of irony.

Now you have been insulted. Study what I have said. I do this to you as a favour. Maybe now, you will take your head out of your ass and stop whining.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:39 PM

And then a voice was heard . . . .

All right, what the hell's going on here. Everyone get to bed. NOW!

Now I lay me down to sleep,
And pray my friends will count some sheep,
And when we wake another day,
This thread will then have gone away.

Good night Billy Bob. Good night Mary Lou. Good night Susie Ellen. Good night John Boy. Good night Willie Shatner. Good night Obi Wan. Good night y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:30 PM

CarolC, I agree that this is one of the silliest things on Mudcat. But to me the silly thing is your refusal to admit when you have insulted someone.

Your last post, for example, amounted to "You know, I'm not going to say what I think of you because that would not be nice."

Just saying THAT is not nice. Just saying THAT is an insult. Just saying THAT is not keeping your mouth shut when you have nothing nice to say, which most certainly is NOT your policy.

But I'm sure you don't see that. You never do anything offensive, and the rest of us are entirely to blame. Have it your way then.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:17 PM

And with that, a peace settled over the people at Mudcat Cafe. Brothers and Sisters decided to end the thread at the magic number of 250. And to all a good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:08 PM

It sure would be nice if we could move from here to that wonderful new thread entitled, "Middle East Solution" which was started by a common, uncomplicated, ordinary, every-day saviour of North America's destiny. Holy Shit are y'all pissed off. Just a little light humour here, that's all. Nothin' to see, let's move along; nothin' to see, let's move along.

Special thanks to Pat Paulsen for the NA's destiny remark. Shameless theft on my part.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:51 PM

BTW, Nerd, I subscribe to the idea that if you don't have anything nice to say, and if no basic, very important principles (such as human rights) are at stake, don't say anything. Maybe you've never heard of that one. Personally, I think it's a good way of doing things.

That is why I haven't responded to the many posts of yours and Fred's in which the two of you enumerate all of the ways you find my style of posting unattractive, or disagreeable, by telling you what I think of yours. And I think I'll continue to keep it to myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:37 PM

I have to say, this whole big discussion about what Nerd insists I meant by what I *didn't* say, is just about one of the silliest things I've ever seen here in the Mudcat.

So Martin, that was not you who stopped just short of calling me a cunt? ( ...in the post under your name that mentions 'female genitalia') Or was that you?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 09:50 PM

ATTTENTION!!

I am back after a few days out of town.

The last post claiming to be me was not me. Jack the Sailor, I did not post what was said about you by someone claiming to be me. Honestly, I do not need someone posing as me to get myself hated by some in this group who I also have no respect for. However, if you do not like this thread, which I did start with a legimate article post by a renowned journalist, then get the fuck off of it.

Whoever posted as me, Fuck you.

Fred Miller, I think this afrticle was one of the best ever written by George Will who is an award winning writer and who I KNOW is repsected by the Jewish community. As for your not finding my posts funny, I just do not give a shit.

As for Chief Chaos, I know what this thread is about, moron, I started it for Christ sakes.

For all of those who have particpated in this thread who have wasted your time arguing with a stubborn Israel hater like Carol C., I do have respect for your tenacity.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM

I think CarolC accusing me of personal attacks is unfair.

(Jack, of course you must defend her.)

Again, CarolC said "I can't speak for you" immediately after I had already said I was for Human Rights. The only way to take this is as "I think there is still doubt, and that you may be lying." THAT is a personal attack, and as far as I could see it came from nowhere.

What, specifically, did CarolC take as a personal attack from me? I'd be interested to see where she think's I've been "attacking."

CarolC, by saying the following:

I don't see how anyone can be for human rights while supporting what the government of Israel has done and is doing to the Palestinians. As far as I can see, to do that is to promote Jewish rights above the rights of others.

you have shown that

(1) everything you've said about me and human rights and what you really meant (to me and to your husband) is at best an evasion, because now you say you really think I can't possibly support human rights with my politics (which is interesting)

and

(2) you haven't been reading what I've been saying. I don't support what the government of Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and I don't support what Palestinian terrorists are doing to Israelis. But I don't think a solution can be reached until there is a Palestinian leadership with both the power and the will to negotiate for the Palestinian people. Israel has a democratically elected government and trusts its leaders. It has had progressive governments, conservative governments, and reactionary governments, and NONE of them could work with Arafat. There has not yet been a Palestinian leader who could bring anything to the table, which is precisely why Galbraith's points about Arafat's corruption are relevant, and why your trivialization of those points was unfair. Arafat does not want this problem solved because the problem is the source of his power and wealth. THAT is what has been stopping the peace process for forty years.

Let a real Palestinian leader come forward, who is really commtted to peace, and I think a solution will be reached. Until then, Israel is as unable as the Palestinians to solve this problem. You can blame them all you want, but it will not help.

And the whole "It's not up to me to tell you thing" is old, carolC (and JTS). If you said to me "I think you may be an asshole, but it's not up to me to tell you whether you are an asshole or not. Only you can say if you are an asshole," then where I come from you have still called me an asshole, you've just used a lot of extra words.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 07:37 PM

The childish immaturity of Mr. Gibson
is evidenced in every utterance
He howls and bellows like a little lost pup
with bile and venom and sputterence
To engage in conversation with him is
to be dragged into the gutterence.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:28 PM

Good idea, Rob. I have done so. See "Middle East Solutions" on a thread near you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 01:58 PM

"I would appreciate it if you'd cut her a little slack."

A little slack? You mean just like your little Jack the Sailor?

HA HA HA!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 01:51 PM

I guess we cross posted Brucie.

I'd really like to see this thread drop off the page and go away.

Why don't you start another thread if you want to discuss solutions? One without the trolling and ill will of this one.


Thanks

Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 01:47 PM

Hi Folks,

Many of you may know that I am Carol's husband. Carol has told me that this thread was started by Martin Gibson as a deliberate attempt to troll for her. I haven't read much of it, but I have read enough to believe that this opinion is warranted. I would appreciate it if you all would go back and reread what she has said. In that light, I think then you will find her reactions make perfect sense. She told me what she was thinking when she wrote about speaking for Nerd's belief in human rights.

Nerd, she certainly does not feel exactly as you do about human rights, there are, after all, different levels of support. She also is precisely honest about what she says. If she says she cannot speak for you, she means that she cannot speak for you, not that she thinks that you do not support human rights. This distinction may seem murky to you but it is clear to her, and to me.

I would appreciate it if you'd cut her a little slack.

Thanks Nerd for this kind statement.

But in general, she's a fighter for what she believes in, and that's always inpressive.

I think it perfectly describes Carol's participation in these discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 01:13 PM

OK, we got lots of positions. I'm hoping to change this thread's direction just a bit. We know there's a problem, and we ain't gettin' anywhere with THAT. What's the solution?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 12:59 PM

...and Nerd, to answer your question, I don't see how anyone can be for human rights while supporting what the government of Israel has done and is doing to the Palestinians. As far as I can see, to do that is to promote Jewish rights above the rights of others.

But I don't think it's my place to tell you what you think, or what your positions are about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Frankham
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 12:19 PM

Again, the idea that there is one good side and one bad side is naive.
Of course there are human rights abuses on both sides. The Israelis need to ask the question, however, why would an individual strap
explosives on his/her body and detonate it in a public place? What has lead to this madness? The Palestinians have to ask themselves
at what point will they tolerate Jewish religious practices and
depart from the extremist Hamas-style reactionary groups?

When will the bulldozing of innocent people's homes stop and when
will the rock throwing and suicide bombings as well?

It's simply ridiculous to assign to either side a completely high moral ground for their actions.

America in it's present condition is unable to broker a deal as mediator. Bush's ties to apocalyptic religious bias regarding Israel disqualifies him in every way. The UN is the only hope and in spite
of the John Darby approach to the "Left Behind" novels, a world
government is not such a bad idea. It would curb the conceits and arrogance of the Bushites and the Radical Religious Right.

I'm still for Chomsky's solution.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

If anyone were to do an analysis of this thread, or for that matter, any of the threads on Israle/Palestine, as compared to other threads about world affairs, they would see that the number of personal attacks I recieve on Israel/Palestine related threads is almost one humdred percent greater than those I receive on any other type of thread. This is because, since the people making the personal attacks on me are trying to defend reprehensible, and therefore indefensable actions of the government of Israel, they must resort to ad hominem attacks and smear tactics on those who challenge their viewpoint. Martin Gibson, Nerd, Fred Miller, and various "Guests" are the ones doing it on this particular thread.

Galbraith, I am not suggesting that you are a Nazi, nor was I then. I think it was a mistake for me to use my response to you as a way to make the point that a lot of people seem to think that the whole Palestinian population should be punished for whatever Arafat does or does not do. That is collective punishment, and I think those who use Arafat as an excuse for the actions of the Israeli government are advocating collective punishment. That was a favorite tactic of the Nazis. People should be aware of that. But you're right. You were not doing that. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Galbraith
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

"Trust that she really believes what she says."

Brucie,

Please reread my post of 07 Mar 04 - 05:41 PM. It dealt with one topic: Arafat's corruption.

CarolC's response at 07 Mar 04 - 12:17 PM was: "Are you saying that these things justify the massive human rights abuses that Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians? Because if you are, you would be advocating collective punishment, and I'm sure Hitler would be proud of you for that."

I did not even mention Israel. For all she knew, I may have been a pro-Palestinian activist who happens to believe that the cause would be better served by a leader who wasn't plundering from his people.

CarolC's implicit message is that anyone who provides a reasoned response to the issue of Arafat's corruption is justifying human rights abuses and is a Nazi.

I've gathered that CarolC's personal and unjustified attack on me was not an isolated incident. Do you think that she believe what she says when mounted that attack on me?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:26 AM

Well. Everybody is nicer than me. Again. Damn. All the chairs taken when the music stops. Here I am, again, the lone jerk. Where's Martin when you need him. I think it's a conspiracy.

   I don't think I can back-pedal from having said I don't find CarolC's position serious, but instead I think she sounds like a liberal with a pet cause, which she holds apart from all others involving much the same principles. Including those on the other side of her position.

   And I don't agree with you Nerd about low insults. CarolC doesn't do that easily or very much at all, but to the extent she seems to, the problem is more for me that it tips off the whole tone and gist of her position. It's not that she implies that you are not for human rights, it's that she generally implies that nobody is unless they agree with her, and does not admit comparison to the many ways that human rights are compromised toward other ends. Listen: She says things like "I don't begrudge Jews their homeland in Israel"--I guess it's just me, thinking For God's sake who do you imagine you are, anyway? I can't come around to it, at all. No more than I can come around to George Will's posturing in the article above. Oh well.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 12:13 AM

Yes, Fred, I understood that you were talking about the same incident with CarolC. I made the distinction because CarolC seemed at one point to have forgotten that she had addressed me on the matter directly. So when I talked about the Human Rights thing, she said:

"I did not suggest that you aren't for human rights. What I said, and what I've been criticized by Fred Miller for saying, is that I can't speak for you about weather or not you are for human rights, that only you can say whether or not you are for human rights."

Fine, but in my original post I had said "I trust that both of us support Human Rights"; this was in fact what she was responding to. How could I have said this if I myself did not support Human Rights? The only sense I could make of her later comments was that she had forgotten that it all began with a statement by me that I supported human rights and would assume she did too.

This context makes the faulty logic of the whole "I can't speak for you" thing pretty transparent, too. I obviously was not asking anyone to speak for me, as I had already spoken for myself.

Brucie, I agree with you about CarolC, too. It's the low-level insults that she apparently does not mean, but that many of us feel, that got us off on this line. But in general, she's a fighter for what she believes in, and that's always inpressive.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:47 PM

Pardon me for speaking on your behalf, ma'am.

Nothing to pardon, brucie. Thanks, once again, for your kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 09:33 PM

Carol C is a serious defender of human rights. I respect her for that. I like Carol, and although I do not agree with her, I admire how hard she fights for the cause she supports. Many of the posts have got pretty harsh from lots of people. Trust that she really believes what she says. And, she is arguing from that position.

If I were Palestinian, I would appreciate having her helping my cause. S'long's we all understand that, things get a bit clearer. Pardon me for speaking on your behalf, ma'am.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 09:27 PM

Nerd, a couple of times you've given the impression that there was a separate quibble I had with CarolC about the tone of her remarks about who supports human rights. I was talking about her comment to you though, which I and I most likely everyone but ostensibly CarolC herself heard the same tone of insult in.

Again I disagree with CarolC. I follow these sorts of discussions precisely for the purpose of getting a sense of what people are on about, rather than as a source of history and statistics. She seems to find my line of interest "unproductive"--and I hers. In fact, I'm not sure how much I disagree with her general point, but do know I quite disagree with the manner of stating it.
   
   I could certainly be wrong in my perception of her slant on things. Could easily be quite wrong. But if one hopes to speak for a reason, wouldn't it be productive to take feedback on how one sounds? or why people are put off? I'd think so, if one were serious about speaking for something beyond themselves. I think I'd leave off facile pseudo-ironies about Hitler and the holocaust and simply find another way of stating the case. What harm would that do?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:21 PM

CarolC,

I advanced no "characterization of you" at all. I merely pointed out what you said and what many readers would take away from it. Remember, I was not the only one offended by your Hitler remark.

You may know yourself pretty well, but you are apparently oblivious to how you sound to others sometimes. It's no great sin, and it happens to all of us.

(To which you may choose to respond "well, I know it happens to YOU, but not to me!" But I trust you won't do that.)

Okay, back to my corner now...

c-Watch,

It IS, unfortunately, true that many leading neo-cons are Jews and that in the short term, a neo-conservative agenda and a pro-Sharon agenda coincide. Whether it's anti-semitism to point this out depends on how you say it.

I think the adbusters article, trying to claim that it is Political Correctness not to call a Jew a Jew, certainly verges on anti-semitism. It's like when people say, "well, why won't anybody point out that most terrorists are Arabs? Why NOT make all Arabs empty their pockets at the airport?"

Thanks for pointing out that piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:04 PM

Excuse me while I return this thread to its topic, "Anti-Semitism & The Left."

The new issue of Adbusters, a left wing magazine based in Canada, blames the Bush foreign policy on a small cadre of neo-cons dominated by Jews with a Likud Party agenda.

This type of anti-Semitsm on left is not so different from that of the McCarthyite right wingers of my father's day who blamed communism on a small cadre dominated by Jews.

Here's the Adbusters article.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Frankham
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:04 PM

Nerd and Carol, back to your corners. You both should be commended
for the in-depth information and background. Let's stay off the personal crap because it gets in the way of your "points" which
are interesting and useful. They are indicative of the problems of
the Middle East and I enjoyed reading the history that you both present.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM

Nerd, I think this discussion has deteriorated into a personality conflict. I do not agree with your characteriaztion of me, and since I know me and you don't, I'm going to stick with what I know. I'm going to refrain from trying to characterize you, for the same reason I wouldn't speak for you about whether or not you support human rights... because it's not my place to do so. At this point, I think these kinds of exchanges are unproductive, and I have no interest in participating in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:57 PM

CarolC,

I'm going to call you on some of this stuff. I am not doing the same things I accuse you of. First of all, although my quotes are not precise, and therefore could fit the definition of "misquoting," I did a good job in each case of paraphrasing what you actually said. So:

on the issue of supporting human rights, you said "I can't speak for you. I can only speak for myself."

My paraphrase: "I really couldn't say [whether Nerd supports Human Rights]." I think this is pretty fair.

Second, when you said:

"Are you saying that these things justify the massive human rights abuses that Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians? Because if you are, you would be advocating collective punishment, and I'm sure Hitler would be proud of you for that."

I generalized to "are you saying that X applies, because if so Hitler would be proud of you,"

Again, I think, a pretty fair paraphrase.

Now, what I actually said was "Somewhere in the back of the Jewish mind, there is always the question: What if I have to go to Israel? Will it be there for me? That is something, I think, that can never be engrained in your psyche because you live in a Jewish neighborhood."

You quoted me thus: "And you're right. I will never have the degree of indoctrination that you have recieved about the 'history' of Israel." The only thing your statement had to do with mine was Israel. I was not talking about history, or indoctrination, nor I think did I seem to be doing so. I was talking about the future, not the past. But by putting "you're right" before an invented statement that no-one ever made before now, you are indicating that this was what I said. Like in "you're right, Nerd, you ARE an asshole!"

If you had said, "Nerd, your words suggest that you have been indoctrinated," then I would have disagreed, but not taken offense.

I did not, as you say "tell you your meaning." I was careful to use the word "suggest" in describing what your words only suggested. Insoe cases I had to use the word "suggests" three times in a sentence. (Does this suggest that I am obsessive about shit like this? Perhaps!)

But honestly, CarolC, when you say "are you saying such and such?" Nine times out of ten, the person on the receiving end will take that to mean that you think that IS what he or she is saying. To use that construction without intending the person to draw that conclusion is unwise, as you will be misunderstood.

As for your comments to me, I refer you to my post of 10 Mar 04 - 12:07 AM, which I quote in full (and expand upon) below:

BTW, carolC, I was not referring to your comments to Fred, but the one you made directly to me. After I attempted to be inclusive and to respect your point of view by saying

"I trust that both of us support Human Rights"

You responded with.

"I can't speak for you. I can only speak for myself. I am in support of human rights. For everybody"

So to break this down, I said "this positive attribute belongs to both of us"...which was a compliment to you. And you responded with "well, I believe it belongs to ME, but I'm not sure it belongs to YOU," which was at least a slight, and perhaps a direct insult, to me.

It's like when someone says "now, now, we're all adults," and the response is "well, I'M and adult, but I don't know about YOU!"

If you honestly tell me you did not mean this specific quote in that way, then I'll believe you. (But please tell me how you DID mean it, then!)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:37 PM

Wolfgang, I appreciate your post.

brucie, I don't begrudge Jews their homeland in Israel. I think the early Zionists created a lot of the problems the region is experiencing now, with the way they went about getting this homeland. I don't have any problem with Israel being a homeland for Jews now, but I do have a problem with the government of Israel and a large part of the world community not treating the Palestinians like human beings, and I have a problem with Israeli expansionism.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:25 PM

CarolC, I was not misquoting you, I was stating what you suggested about me by saying "I really couldn't say." You were stating that from my posts, for all you knew, I COULD be "against Human Rights." This then suggests that my posts and my online demeanor are such that one could come away with this impression.

You were, indeed, misquoting me, and telling me what my meaning was on top of that. I find this a bit offensive.

And as for the person you compared to Hitler, when you say "are you saying that X applies, because if so Hitler would be proud of you," rhetorically you are suggesting a comparison to Hitler. You are trying to back someone away from a statement he has made by saying "the way I understand it, that statement suggests a Hitler-like attitude," which in itself SUGGESTS you think he is like Hitler.

Again, I find you telling me what my meaning and my intentions were in asking that question. You are doing exactly the thing you are accusing me of doing.

I was trying to get the person I was addressing (can't even remember who it was now) to "shit or get off the pot" so to speak. Either you advocate collective punishment or not. If you do, then the comparison is apt. If you don't, then it's time to move on to the next question.

Technicalities aside, it's a little offensive.

And again, so is your habit of telling me what I mean by what I say.

This crap about indoctrination is pretty offensive too. There, you are misquoting me rather severely. I never said anything about indoctrination. What I said was that Jews wish Israel to exist, and that all things being equal, and given that there will be the same amount of suffering in the world (a premise I know you don't share, but one which we honestly believe to be true), we would prefer the option that keeps Israel in existence. As they say, "so sue us." But don't slander us!

Ok. I'm willing to accept that that is what you meant by what you said. Now, are you willing to extend to me the same courtesy?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:12 PM

This isn't really information, it's propaganda.

You're mighty quick with the accusations there, nerd. It was an omission that I didn't notice until after I posted. And I didn't have time to correct it until now.

Nationality and Entry into Israel Law

I never said it was the British intention to move anyone into Transjordan, but that Transjordan was the part of the Palestine mandate set aside for Arabs.

Please provide the document where it is stated that it was the British intention that Transjordan was the part of the Palestine mandate set aside for Arabs. I've not yet found any evidence that this is the case. I've only found evidence that the British were making conflicting promises to the various groups involved, and that they didn't make any clear cut declarations of their intent (at least none that weren't contradicted by others that they also made). The Hashemites think that not only was it not a part of Palestine, but that Transjordan was the part of the Mandate that was set aside for them. The Hashemites do not represent the indigenous people of what is now Israel and the Occupied Territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:51 PM

Carol,

I never said it was the British intention to move anyone into Transjordan, but that Transjordan was the part of the Palestine mandate set aside for Arabs. Nothing you have said contradicts that. Anyone moving anywhere would have been entirely voluntary. Just as Muslims were allowed to remain in India, even though Pakistan was created to be a Muslim state, so they would have been allowed to remain in Israel. Whether they wanted to live in a Jewish state was another question.

I also never said anything that contradicts the 1947 map; indeed, it reflects exactly what I said: that AFTER there had already been a state in the British Palestine Mandate set aside for Arabs (Transjordan), the UN set aside ANOTHER one (the west bank and Gaza Strip). Israel agreed to those borders, but the Arabs in several countries rose against them and the Palestinians in Israel rose up, so israel fought back. Jordan took the land; Israel won it from Jordan in a later war. We've been through it all before, and it makes the 1947 UN plan irrelevant. The Arabs, including the Palestinians, were the ones who rejected that plan.

As to the laws, the US has also enacted wartime emergency laws that may look repressive (and indeed were). You took the characterization of these laws from an obviously biased and distorted website. For example, the law stating that Israel took lands from people who were "forced to flee." They were forced to flee because they rejected Israeli citizenship and rose up in armed revolt against the government! Guess what? The US confiscated British lands in the Revolutionary war, too. It was the Arabs who started that war, and now they complain that they lost their land.

Your discussion of how the Israelis deceived the Palestinians and got them to flee only makes the Israelis look smart AND just. They avoided having to fight pitched battles, and kill or be killed. Is this such a bad thing? Remember again, they did not start that war.

Finally, in the following statement:

This law applies only to Israeli Arabs:

Following enactment of the Nationality and Entry into Israel Law on 31 July 2003, thousands of couples will be forced to live apart. Children will be separated from their parents at the age of 12 or will become lawbreakers through no fault of their own. Many families will remain in Israel with no legal status in order to live together.

you neglect even to tell us what the law is or what it does. It seems from the title that it would only apply to immigrants. If so, they can choose whether or not to immigrate there based on what the laws are. Anyway, is this separation of couples really a consequence? We can't tell from what you give us.

This isn't really information, it's propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM

Laws that are different for Israeli Arabs:

(This law pertains only to Israeli Arabs...)

The Absentee Property Law (1950), states that any land left vacated by those who were forced to flee during the war of 1948-1949 becomes the property of the state of Israel. This applies to 200,000 Palestinian of Israeli citizenship (20% of the total), who fled their homes in 1948 and settled elsewhere within Israel. The absentee law also applies to those Palestinians who fled to other countries and to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. All of them have been denied all rights to the properties (lands, houses, corporations, shares, bank accounts, bank safes, etc.), which they owned until 1948.

The Laws preventing Arab parties that do not recognize the Jewish character of the Israeli State from participating in elections.

The 1945 emergency legislation, which allows the confiscation of Arab land (by 1998 only 10% of the immovable property owned by Palestinians before 1948 remained in Palestinian hands).
The educational law, which has the promotion of Jewish culture and Zionist ideology as one of its declared aims.

This law applies only to Israeli Arabs:

Following enactment of the Nationality and Entry into Israel Law on 31 July 2003, thousands of couples will be forced to live apart. Children will be separated from their parents at the age of 12 or will become lawbreakers through no fault of their own. Many families will remain in Israel with no legal status in order to live together.